Mr. Mortarman....would it be possible for Mrs. Mortarman
to begin a thread and post here at MB?

It would be helpful for her to share what is going on inside of her. HER THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS.

She would get kind and caring advice from MB members.

It would be very good for your marriage. It might even SAVE it.
(The way things are now, it sure couldn't hurt.)


What do you think, MM?

P.S. You are getting lots of good advice from others.

MM,

I can't seem to get you and your family off my mind.

Let me ask you a question. The very first time you posted to me, I believe -- when I came here as a FWW struggling with whether to tell my H about my affair -- you asked me if I am a Christian. I gave you a one-word reply. "No".

I remember wondering whether you'd then ignore me. Or maybe try to convert me. You did neither. You continued to be a friend and teacher, without preaching to me or hammering me with quotes from scripture. And you helped me soooo much. Why? Why did you bother with me?

--SC

(I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. And, yes, I am sort-of setting you up. But I hope you'll answer anyway.)

No where on here did MM refer to his wife as evil or cruel.

I may not agree with some things on this thread but I must jump in here to say that she was not in anyway referred to in this manner by MM...so where did this come from?

I believe what he said was that her heart was becoming hard...this does not mean she is evil and cruel. I believe in Christian terms this means she has turned away from the Lord. Big, big difference don't you think in turning away from the Lord and being evil and cruel?

Folks...sorry for the lack of response. I had to wait in line last night to mail taxes...and I had a long talk with my wife last night.

I will elaborate shortly on what was discussed and some things that I realized yesterday after all of your very poignant posts. After that, I do intend to answer each of your posts, as they all are very good. It may take me a little while today to get thru them all...but I will.

In His arms.

If you will look at MM's posts about it, he has acknowledged that he's imperfect (as are we all!) when it comes to lovebusters. The two we were discussing were selfish demands (SDs) and disrespectful judgements (DJs). Willard Harley is very clear in his articles about them -- they are both abusive strategies to get what we want.

I am certainly imperfect in these areas as well -- and I believe that almost all of us have some tendency to use these "stupid and abusive" (WH's description) strategies some of the time.

Whether MM recovers his marriage or not, each of us who contemplates living our lives in a marriage at some point -- whether our current marriage or a future one -- should be very seriously considering how to learn better approaches and better emotional regulation on which to base those approaches. The best that I have found, after much searching, is what's found in Steven Stosny's work.

Stosny's practice is to train the mind to automatically respond to emotionally triggering events with compassion and caring and openness. I would certainly love to talk to MM's wife about her own healing and growth, but unless she posts here, or if I meet her someday (one never knows what life will bring), I can't do that.

I would also say that in the year of recovery, I have a suspicion that there wasn't enough progress in addressing the underlying problems in the marriage. It's hard to say whether contact with the other man is a cause or effect of that, but I think it's pretty clear that the underlying issues that created problems in the marriage have not been dealt with enough. MM still needs to work those issues through for his own health and ability to form a healthy, whole marriage in the future -- whether it's with his current wife (I hope that will be the case) or another.

Oh, and...


I suspect that telling a wayward spouse this is a strategy that is not likely to save the marriage. It's likely to further resentment, bitterness, and rage -- because it will be viewed as another attempt to use God to control and dominate the wayward spouse. Though you may be absolutely right and it may be the path to the greatest happiness the wayward spouse has ever known, it is not likely to be viewed that way.

FH indicates that the relationship with Christ must be reforged before recovery in the marriage can begin. Because my belief system differs, I would word it differently -- one must begin the work of becoming connected to the core values of one's Higher Power, the people we love, family, community, the great beauty in nature and manmade works, compassionate acts, and comforting the child who cries in the desert. Go on, think of an example of each one, and really -feel- how it feels to do so. When you're done? That's core value. That's the place to start rebuilding a marriage -- and ending abuse -- from.

JustJ, viewed from a "humanistic perspective" you may be right. But we are NOT talking about a human perspective, we are talking about a "God perspective."

God IS in control. God IS Sovereign. God HAS the right to command and we have the "right" to obey. It really is that simple.

"Using God" to control a spouse is what OTHER religions often attempt to do, i.e. Islam, but not Christianity. In Christianity there are ROLES that both husband and wife perform because God gave them those roles, and in spiritual matters, which is what is being discussed here in "getting right with God first," the HUSBAND is the God assigned "head of the household." It IS his responsibility to lead in matters of faith and obedience to God. It is the wife's role to honor, respect, and obey her husband as HE fulfills his role as "spiritual leader" in the home as "Christ's stand-in" in the marriage.




I understand you would word it differently....meaning NOT surrendering to Almighty God and NOT putting HIM on the throne as both LORD and SAVIOR. But Mortarman IS a Christian. So the advice that is "pertinent" to him IS biblical, Christian, advice and NOT humanistic "reasoning" or substitutes. As I have been told by non-Christians to "keep God out of it" on occasion when advising non-Christians, the reverse also holds true. Keep "secular humanism and/or 'other faiths' out of advice to a Christian and stick to God's advice as found in His Word whenever such advice would contradict what God has said.



Obviously, I disagree. That's placing human "Feelings" above humble obedience to God and love FOR God because of what HE has done for us. "Thou shalt have NO other gods before me" means exactly what it says. That is NOT to negate or prohibit "doing" good things for others, but it IS a matter of priority and ranking. Love the Lord your God, and love others as yourself. The two commandments upon which everything else rests.

God bless.

(((((Mortarman)))))

How are you doing brother?

You can send me an email if you'd prefer a more private talk.

God bless.

JustJ:

Greg Baer would use terms slightly different, but with the very same meaning, as WH in this sitch, describing those behaviors as "getting and protecting behaviors".

One thing he said that found profound (even if it's not strictly true, it's a useful strategy):

"Remember, whenever you're angry, you are wrong."

It's a very useful method for stopping one's self from perpetrating the abuse that you describe.




FH: I bet there's still an empty seat in the yellow and white VW bus!

You may be absolutely right - after all, MM is similarly minded - but I'd be willing 2 bet that ONE of Mrs MM's current problems is the intimidating aspect of that particular approach 2 relationship building.

-ol' 2long

Let me take another crack at this problem...

I think that one of the concerns here is that, if MM "relaxes" his Fundamentalist Christian "stance" in order 2 show compassion for his W's predicament (however that evolved, it's currently manifested as something like utter despair and fatalism, and OM *appears* 2 be a safety net)... if MM does this, then he risks compromising his faith?

I believe that he understands that I'm not attacking his faith, but rather trying 2 suggest ways that he might try 2 better understand, and thus be better able 2 *reach* his W *where she currently is* - all without *going there* himself (particularly if some nasty character, like Satan, is involved).

Compassion and empathy should still be possible, not overwhelmed by rules and regulations.

-ol' 2long

***Compassion and empathy should still be possible, not overwhelmed by rules and regulations.***

I agree. I thought compassion was one of the most important of the Christian doctrines.

Mortarman, just out of curiosity - have you ever seen the film *Hawaii*, based on the novel by James Michener, about the Calvinist missionary preacher and his wife and what he learned from her about Christian compassion and love?

Mulan

I agree, thirdly..

This is about showing LOVE..definitely a Christian principle...

2long - MM's wife might have that sort of 'human reaction,' but he has been at recovery with his wife for a long time. SHE professes to be a Christian and what he is is saying is biblically correct AND she knows it. So if she is "intimidated" by anything, it is more likely God who she is 'intimidated by' than anything that Mortarman might say like "bend the knee."

Hence, MY question is what DOES she in answer to the question "Who do YOU say that Jesus is?" Before there can be any "bending of the knee," that fundamental question must first be answered and then accepted, leading to a surrender and bending of the knee.

SOMETHING is hindering her answering or submitting, and that is what I am trying to understand.



Of course compassion and caring have their place in Mortarman's recovery efforts with his wife, and he has shown them abundantly over the years. WHERE is her compassion and caring for Mortarman? Like most things, this is not a "one way" street.

But you advocate for Mortarman's "relaxing" his Fundamentalist Christian "stance" in order 2 show compassion for his W's predicament.

Exactly WHAT "Christian stance" do you advocate he "abandon" or "relax his grip on" even if it means NOT doing what God has commanded needs to be done?

Should a Christian NOT accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior?

Should a Christian NOT surrender THEIR will to God's will, even when they want to do something that is "wrong?"

Should a Christian NOT tell another Christian who is struggling with obedience to God NOT to honor God through simple obedience to Him in response to HIS love for that Christian?

Where is the line you advocate for? "This is love for me, that you obey my commands." That's the LORD speaking, not MM, not me, not any human. Do we willfully disregard what God has said because "God didn't really mean what He said?"

I know you are trying to help, BUT Mortarman IS a Christian and it is Scriptural advice that he needs FROM God, not the opinion of man. That is a difference that is difficult for non-Christians to understand. It's because God IS Sovereign and is OUR Sovereign.

It is my hope that Mortarman will respond soon so we'll have some idea of how things are with him, rather than discussing "things" amongst ourselves.

God bless.

I want to acknowledge..if it matters at all..that my personal struggle with this is that MM's stance regarding his WW SEEMS counter to how he counseled me...

His WW SEEMS no different from my WH who had turned against God..was a former church deacon...and had several instances of recontacting the OW...

He encouraged me NOT TO GIVE UP THE FIGHT..TO STAY IN THE BATTLE...

My question to you FOREVER..you yourself say this...

" IN CHRISTLIKE LOVE AT ALL TIMES"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

FH:

The VW bus thing was in reference 2 a story I recounted a 2ple pages back about an experience I had that I think is relevant.

You completely missed my point, though. I'm certainly not suggesting that MM abandon his beliefs. Rather, that MIGHT appear 2 be what's expected of him.

"Hence, MY question is what DOES she in answer to the question "Who do YOU say that Jesus is?" Before there can be any "bending of the knee," that fundamental question must first be answered and then accepted, leading to a surrender and bending of the knee."

Maybe SHE is hoping for a different 2uestion, at this point. Like "What can I do for you, Mrs MM, 2 ease your pain?"

-ol' 2long

Folks,

Again...thank you! You have asked so many things here, that it will take me all day to respond. And I want to respond!! So, please...let's take a small break and let this thread lie until I can get the responses out there. I have actually been typing the last 1/2 hour on what I found out yesterday. Once I get that up here, I will then respond to your posts.

All of you have no idea how much you are helping thru your questions and prayers.

Stand by...incoming post soon!

In His arms.

Uh oh! INCOMING! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mimi - I didn't see a question in there, but I am basically in agreement with what you said. The issue remains that Mortarman has the "right" to a divorce if that is what he chooses no matter what other "considerations" there might be. GOD gave him that right. I agree that we should do all that we can to try to recover our marriages, but if we "can't" live with fact of the adultery or if the WS remains, or reverts to, an "unrepentant state," then God is ALSO a "God of Peace." THAT is why He granted the right to divorce to the faithful spouse. I am an advocate for NOT "giving up," but there is also a time when "tough love" is appropriate, including divorcing.

ALL that I am saying in this case is that I do NOT know enough about Mrs. MM to give "advice." I need to question and know more before any coherent or pertinent advice can be offered. I have never spoken to Mrs. MM, nor was I aware that all this was going in his marriage.

All I CAN say is that MM is NOT being contradictory in what he said to you and what he is facing in his own decisions. His heart is with God and with his marriage. What he needs, even though we may not know the particulars of what is going on right now, is fellow Christians to band together in intercessory prayer for both him and his wife, that God's will might be done in their marriage.

I have been at the brink of "tossing in the towel" several times over the past 4 years myself. I KNOW the feeling of "I don't know what else to do." To a large extent, recovery IS out of our hands and out of our control. God is in control and each spouse is in control of their own choices and behaviors.

You might remember that FGG got mad at me for advocating "staying" in the marriage and working with his wife on her relationship with Christ. At a given point I yielded to his RIGHT to a divorce because of her incalcitrance. Simply put, FGG had the right to a divorce. The same sort of thing applies here. The "tricky part" is the "when." The tricky part is when is "enough is enough" and allowing the WS to go their own way....ala a prodigal. Sometimes we also have to love them enough to "let them go" because, as 2long was trying to say, their "perception" of what we are doing is being used as an excuse for their continued rebellion against God. So we let them go and "let God" while we continue on, loving from a distance and removing a "convenient excuse" from their repetoire.

We do not have the ability to see into someone's soul, but we DO know what "evidences" we should expect to see in someone who does love the Lord. We are told that we DO have the right to "judge" fellow professing believers WITH God's Word, because it reveals what a believer should exhibit in the way of "fruit" from their saving belief. And we are told by Christ the "steps" that are to be taken to restore a sinning brother or sister....Matthew 18:15-20.

One thing is crystal clear that potentially applies to this situation, as it does to all such situations of adultery. NO unrepentant adulterers will be in heaven. Therefore, any professing Christian who will NOT repent of adulter IS NOT SAVED because the indwelling Holy Spirit WILL convict a believing sinner OF their sin and bring them to repentance.
This is, I am quite sure, part of Mortarman's intense internal struggle concerning his wife and her "hard heartedness."

God bless.

***Maybe SHE is hoping for a different 2uestion, at this point. Like "What can I do for you, Mrs MM, 2 ease your pain?"***

Couldn't have said it better myself.
Mulan

2long, that is a valid question and one that BOTH WS and BS need to ask daily. This is part of the idea of helping a starving person with providing them actual BREAD instead of just a "holier than thou" sort of "God will take care of your needs. God expects us to HELP when it is within our ability to help and not sanctimoniously "pass the buck to Him."

But that is NOT the fundamental question regarding her salvation and surrender to GOD, not some sort of "surrender" to Mortarman. You see, in a Christian marriage, it is God, not the husband or the wife, who is at the center, at the peak, on the throne, incontrol, etc., of the marriage and of each individual.

Answering your question helps on the human level, but does little, if anything, on the spiritual level for a "Child of God." God's "answer" to that question you posed is simple....."obey my commands." "IF YOU LOVE ME you will obey my commands." God already DID all that is necessary for each of us. NOW He expects us to return His love by surrendering our will to HIS will and doing what He has commanded, regardless of how we might be feeling. That does NOT mean that we "don't still feel" or still "struggle" against our own flesh and will. It simply means that despite anything....we choose obedience to God over self-indulgence or "doing it my way."

God bless.

FH:

That was a good response, thanks.

Re the last paragraph: I'm not sure that it doesn't also help on the spiri2al level, and may be the icebreaker that's needed 2 get there.

-ol' 2long