what she is doing is not merely female. it is cake eating. she is being a pure cake eater.

and you? you have done a fine job. you did all you could do. I walked this road. I sure did. at the end, when you realize that there is nothing left to do, you give her over to God. That is what a praying Husband would truly do. Give her over to the One who can heal all things and the author of our universe.

just stay strong for the kids and do the right thing LEGALLY for the kids. that means no shacking up in front of them, and doing what is needed. whatever it takes for the kids.

Give her to God. Let that part go now. Who knows what she will do...

but sadly...I AM FEMALE...and I do not understand her or her decisions.

I do know how it feels to have your heart broken and to lose most of the feeling there...i was numb for almost 2 years completely.

when you ww sadly exits her fog one day, she probably will be so saddened at what she has done. but that day could be tomorrow or ten years from now.

God says we're free. You are free now. This burden of her adultery is not yours to carry anymore. Give it to HIM. Just carry the load of being THE RESPONSIBLE parent of the kids now.

Praying daily 4 u.

Actually, FH, I do understand what it means. I watched my grandfather love God far more than he ever loved his wife and children. None of them were good enough for him, either.

I do know what you mean. It just makes me very sad. But that is the choice Mortarman has made and I certainly won't be able to talk him out of it, any more than anyone could ever talk my grandfather out of it (and no infidelity was involved in that case.)
Mulan

Mulan:

"As long as you insist she must go find God first so that she will be good enough for Mortarman, she may well leave and find God on her own -- but you can be sure she will NEVER come back to you after she does."

I think I understand what you're saying in the first part of this, but I'm not sure I get the last part about her never coming back.

FH:

"Regardless, you need to take it to the next step, both for yourself and for her. IF she is backslidden, you can count on God reaching her. If not, then you will also know God's peace in that matter. "

I understand and agree with this completely, though I wouldn't use any of the jargon. Surprised? Please don't be.

Putting God first is also something I understand, even now though I am not religious at all. I believe that MM can do that without giving his W the feeling that he can't be bothered with her because he's so wrapped up in God-first. But I don't know if that's really her issue, here. I sense it may be a factor, though.

The real "trick", I think, will be for MM and the Mrs 2 stay 2gether OR get DV'd and hold no animosity for the other whatsoever. Acheivable? I think so. Easy? No.

jp:

While I think that MM has done a lot of admirable things, I think he even would agree that he MAY not have done all he could do, just yet. Hence the length of this thread.

Still, letting go is certainly in order. Good for all.

-ol' 2long

Ughhh.....speechless <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Dr. LM - I think you totally missed my point. IMHO he *might* reach her by approaching her first as his wife and second as a properly religious woman, but he is determined to do the exact opposite. That's all I meant.
Mulan

Yeah, perhaps I missed the point.....not the 1st time that has happened to me.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think MM has gone WAY beyond the duty of a husband and human being here....and you can be assured that what we are "seeing" here on this board is only a snapahot of the ****** this man has endured for 4 years. Now that he has made his decision, we should back him on it, and help him build his new life and protect his children. I thought you were implying something different...."my bad"

Mulan, with all due respect, I think many of us DO understand what you are trying to say. We also, or at least I, think you are wrong and are using a misapplication of biblical principles.

MM is NOT "determined" to do the exact opposite. He is dealing with an UNrepentant wife. She CLAIMS to be a Christian, therefore, God tells her what to do, not MM or you or me. God says it very plainly....REPENT. Without repentance there can be no forgiveness or healing.

NO ONE is saying, or has said, that she needs to be a "properly religious woman" first. We are NOT talking about "religiosity" here. We are talking simple humble obedience to God's commands and repentance of sin against God. After that comes repentance of sinful behavior and seeking forgiveness from others who she has sinned against, and that includes Mortarman.

This issue that Mrs. Mortarman is succumbing to, more than any other issue, is PRIDE. Until that issue is resolved, before God, it is unlikely that there will be any basis for reconciliation or for Mortarman to "take her as she is and 'love her to Christ'"

Simply put....IF a professing Christian WILL NOT submit to God, why on earth would we expect them to submit to anyone else or to put the needs of their spouse ahead of their own wants and desires?

Certainly MM CAN choose to live with an unrepentant spouse and try to "love her to him." That is, after all, what MM has been trying to do for these past several years. But he is under NO obligation to "Try," much less to keep trying in the face of blatant refusal by his wife to TRY herself. The "bond" (covenant) of marriage WAS broken by her CHOICE of adultery. MM has the God-given RIGHT to a divorce....period....no strings, no trying, no enduring, no NOTHING....if that is his choice.

He chose to TRY for 4 years. It is irrelevant if it that "trying" was done "perfectly" or not. It never is perfect by anyone. But the simple fact is that a Christian is under obligation to God to OBEY God no matter what they are "feeling." She refuses God. Christ put the matter very succinctly...."If you love me you WILL obey my commands."

So I would ask you to consider your words and your "tone" in your attempts to encourage Mortarman to "keep trying" and to "not give up on his attempts to recover his marriage."

God bless.

Mortarman, earlier in this thread, someone (Just J) asked you if you were still involved with Internet PORNOGRAPHY.

Are you?

Because if you are, your religious pious attitude toward your wife and her EA (or whatever it is) is a bunch of hypocrite meaningless words and mean nothing.

If you are watching this lurid stuff, getting turned on and masturbating, what in the world right do you have to criticize her for anything?

She would have every right to divorce YOU.

Read what Jesus says about lusting after other women and
sinning in your heart! (It is the same as an actual affair.)

(I guess you can tell I think looking at porn is WRONG.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Mortarman, this reply is concerning my above post about you watching porn.

I read where you use to stay up late watching it rather than going to to bed with your wife.

However, you said:
" Porn is no longer a factor in our marriage!"

Are you saying you do not watch it at all now.
NONE whatsever?

If so, I commend you for stopping!

Grace - Mortarman has ANSWERED this question. NEITHER of them use Porn anymore. "Back Then" refers to the time BEFORE Mortarman committed his life to Christ and to simply obedience to God.

So which is worse? Porn or Adultery? Shall we "allow" sins by "order of 'badness' rank" that they might have by our perception? The POINT in all of this that Mortarman HAS repented of HIS sins (NONE of us is without sin) and has sought to follow God in obedience since then. His wife HAS NOT, despite her profession of being a believer.

NOW, is Mortarman "absolved" of all things negative in his marriage? Of course NOT. Not anymore than any of us is "absolved" of responsibility for ANY of our choices. We are not perfect (believers), we are battling our own flesh as we seek to put it under the control of God.

MM's remaining "big" problem that I am certain has affected his recovery and his wife's response to his efforts has been his ongoing HUMAN struggle with his flesh against the enormity of adultery. He BOTH loves his wife and "hates" her choice of adultery as a "way" to address her problems with the marriage.

In the final analysis, the reason for his ongoing battle with anger over his wife's actions is one word....TRUST. She has NOT earned trust back and has NOT acted in a trustworthy manner to regain MM's trust in her. As one, myself, who KNOWS the emotional and psychological devastation of continued contact with "the Beast," I understand the "ANGER" feelings with which MM has contended.

Could MM have done better? Of course. But the same can be said of each one of us. Not one of us "does it perfectly." RECOVERY from adultery TAKES two, it takes effort, it takes a long time BECAUSE there IS a "Roller Coaster" sort of path to every recovery. Some of those "Roller Coasters" are more tame than others and some are downright chilling and frightening, but as long as the two are in the same "car" together, enduring and "holding on," the ride WILL end safely. BUT, if one of them refuses to DO what is necessary (sometimes just staying in the car and holding on to the "safety bar"(Jesus Christ)) and decides to "get out of the car" (i.e. separate and/or file for divorce) there is LITTLE that the remaining spouse CAN do to PUT the other spouse "back in the car for more of the ride." ONLY the individual can make that choice, and only when the TWO have CHOSEN to try together is there ANY chance.

Laying down the "weapons of war" is also necessary.

A long time ago Mortarman recognized the "weapons" he was using (i.e., Porn) and laid them down as "unbecoming a follower of Jesus" and in fulfilling his role as 'Husband' that God assigned to him. His "struggle" has not been with Porn, it has been with ANGER....THE single biggest battle that ALL Betrayed Spouses must deal with. It is a major reason WHY Adultery gets such "special treatment" in the Bible. It is a major reason WHY we are STRONGLY told NOT to choose adultery as an "answer" to our desires or difficulties. Adultery is a self-inflicted wound on our own "one flesh." We are NOT solely "our own" anymore when we CHOOSE marriage. We "belong" to our spouse, physically and mentally.

PORN is, in my opinion, a form of adultery (not forsaking ALL others and keeping myself ONLY unto YOU). IT is adultery in the mind. Mortarman's wife also engaged in that, but also engaged in actual physical adultery. While MM has repented of HIS poor choices, his wife has NOT.

THAT is where they are today.

I am more concerned about WHO, other than Mortarman, is coming alongside of his wife and talking to her about God, her marriage, rights and wrongs, etc. from God's Word. In short, I am wondering who, if anyone, is engaging Mrs. Mortarman in Neuthetic Counseling? IF there is no one, then the church family is NOT, itself, being obedient to God in seeking to restore "fallen" believers in their relationship with Christ.

Regardless...to your point....Mortarman USED to use Porn, but does no longer do so by his own admission. I am sure that he will confirm that in a direct answer to your query, but I wanted you to rest easy on that issue.

God bless.

MM,
I would be curious to hear YOUR answer to Grace's question, too. You said porn "is no longer a factor" but you didn't say you had given it up 100%. (I think you know that I have a very selfish reason for asking this, too. Please pardon me for that.)

FH wrote:



Good point.

2long wrote:

IMO, The most important point of all!

--SC

***We also, or at least I, think you are wrong and are using a misapplication of biblical principles.***

Of course I am wrong. And yes, what I advocate is a misapplication of biblical principles. I am well aware of that.

I understand the choice Mortarman has made. He has chosen to put God first and his wife and family second. I understand that to a committed Christian, that is the ideal situation and is to be highly praised.

But some of us find that to be very, very sad.

I don't expect you to understand. I just wanted to post it anyway. It's not going to change anything, now, is it?
Mulan

Mulan,

I am a committed Christian and have been mostly agreeing with your viewpoint about this situation..I am not considering MM's actions IDEAL AND TO BE HIGHLY PRAISED..haven't finished processing my thoughts on this.. so I have been holding back for now..

Just didn't want you to think that a "committed Christian" feels OK about this..

My 5 cents...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Mimi. I appreciate your thoughts.
Mulan

JL,

Thanks for the post. You have been there since the beginning also. You know my story inside and out. I wanted to respond to your post, as there was much too it.


This is exactly it. A year ago, when I got custody, it was an opportunity to allow my wife to truly see the consequences of her choices. To allow her to see the difference between what God wanted for her, and what she wanted for herself. Sadly, I was so interested in repairing our marriage and family, that I missed the boat and enabled her to continue.


Oh, I knew this. I have told others on her this also, in regards to their situation. The basics of MB are as you just described. Every marriage will not be saved. But this process is what is needed to come out of it whole, no matter which way it goes.


This is all true. Thanks!

In His arms.

I am not sure what wall I have put up. I have tried to scale the wall she has put up. I have tried tunneling, jumping over, blowing it up. To no avail. she has the key to unlock the gate...yet she wont. There is NO wall to me, for her. If you look back at my threads over the past 3 years, you can see that.


I agree that is what she USED TO want. Before the affair. I had put many things before her. Work, baseball, etc. I have learned that lesson thru all of this. everytime she has come hoem during this mess, I have done nothing but try to get past the past. To try to spend time, to get her to go do things, etc. Always, always, always...she kept the wall up. But, for the last 4 years especially, she has been put ahead of my kids, my job...everything! That is except God. Jesus is now...and always will be (and should be) first!


No, actually...I have told her over and over who I think she is and that I have made all of thsi effort because I do love her and that she is special. That I have forgiven her....and she just needs to let it all go also. but then the next day...she wakes up and continues her rebellion.


I have done that! You see, Mortarman's way of dealing with this is NOT the way I have handled it. Wanna no MY WAY??? My way is pounding the Troll into submission, kicking my adulterous wife to the curb with nothing...and moving on with my kids. That is MY WAY! My way would be after trying the first time, and then she maintained contact and left again...to again pound the Troll into submission, kick my wife to the curb, and move on with my children. Then, after I allowed her back a second time, and then she did this again...my way would be (and the chorus sings)...pound the Troll into submission, kick my wife to the curb, and move on with my children.

Mulan, I am glad you are posting and please keep doing so. But I have not gotten my way. I have doen the exact opposite. My wife filed for divorce a year ago...and lost custody. I didnt do that! My wife filed for divorce in January and seeks to take the kids...I didnt do that! My wife continued contact with the Troll over the last 4 years...I didnt do that. My wife refused to go to counseling after only a few sessions...I didnt do that. My wife has refused to do ONE THING God commands over the last 4 years...I have not done that!

My wife is flawed. So am I. I dont look down on her. As my friend Rob's wife says "There but for the grace of God go I." The issue is now...what do you do with your mistakes. I choose to repent and do better. She has chosen for the past 4 years to do her own thing...and to justify her actions.


Oh, I insist that everyone should find Jesus first. Her relationship with Him is MUCH more important than her relationship with me, her kids, her family...or anyone. Much more important. And guess what? If she did put Jesus first and went to Him, He would care for her, dust her off, and make her a new creation. And guess what? He would do for her what I am incapable of doing and that is giving her someone in this marriage that she can rely on everyday, all of the time. A couple that is submitted to Christ will be the spouse for each other that they need.

ALWAYS!

In His arms.

FH,

Good posts all. You said very eloquently exactly what my situation is. Thanks.

In His arms.

Okay, several of you asked about the porno issue (thanks Grace for bringing it up!).

As I said earlier on in this thread, porno had really been a part of my life since my teens. Nothing crazy. But I really had no problem with it.

After we married, we would rent films from time to time on nights where the kids were put to bed early, if you know what I mean?

And what I know now is all of that was wrong.

But, the porno issue that materialized in my marriage happened, not because I didnt want to be with my wife. Not because I needed someone else. Not because I was addicted. In a weird way, I was trying to lessen the tension in our relationship by being less demanding on her for sex and intimacy as we went thru some serious issues (financial mostly). Her #1 EN is financial security. And she wasnt feelign real secure (neither of us were). So, she wasnt feeling much like the affection and SF stuff.

But anyone that knows the Mortarman knows that SF is HUGE for me. As a matter of fact, take all of the rest of the ENs, add them together and they dont equal the importance of SF and affection. That tells you how big it is.

But, when we married, we both knew this about each other. And we both seemed to like that about each other. She delighted in making sure my top EN was met. And I loved doign things financially for her...loved it! But then the financial dsaster hit one day (our house flooded with sewage) and we have been spiralling down ever since.

The porno back then was used to try to meet my need while at the same time, be less demanding of her while we struggled to meet her need. I would have MUCH preferred going upstairs and being with her on those nights, than down on the couch.

To give you an idea of what SF was liek in our house...before the sewage disaster and financial crash, we would get together in one way or another for SF 6 times a week...or more. Right after the disaster? Maybe 3-4 times a week. Right before the affair? Maybe twice a week.

I used the porno to fill the void and allow myself to not put more on my already stressed wife.

Now, I am saying that I was wrong in all of that. Wrong as I could be. I do believe that porno is a form of mental adultery. Both my wife and I have been guilty of that...together and alone.

But I never sought the end of our relationship. I never wanted to subsitute anyone for her. Not porno...not another woman.

Porno is no longer involved in my life. So, one would ask...how am I getting my #1 need met now, with my wife clearly not meeting it? Has my need for SF lessened?

Well ,first...it has not lessened. That part of me is driving me crazy!!

But as JL said above, there have been lessons I learned and lessons I needed to learn thru this mess. One of them was that my God will supply all of my needs in Christ Jesus. All of them.

So, MOST of the time...when the SF need is driving me crazy, I take it to Him now. And He has always helped me find a way thru it that is in keeping with what He wants for me and our marriage.

I understand what porno is and what it does. I have been weak over my life concerning this. I used it as a crutch during our marriage. At times during this mess, I fell and would go and look or something. But during this mess, it wasnt like before. When these times happened, I didnt get the same interest in what I was seeing than I used to. This sin no longer had a hold on me.

So, porno is no longer a factor in my life. It isnt in my house. It isnt on my computer. It isnt jsut that it is wrong...it is now just something very empty that really has no value in my life or my marriage. We thought it would spice things up occasionally. But when you are having sex 6+ times a week, why would we have needed to spice anything up? Sounds like things were spicey enough!!

So, I hope that answers the questions in thsi regard. I have asked forgiveness from God and my wife in this matter. God has done so...she has not. And God has said, if someoen asks for forgiveness and you do not forgive them, then He will not forgive you!

In His arms.

Mulan,

If you read my link at the bottom of my post, you will see that submission to God is not independent of loving my wife.

Let me give yo ua different example...one which also shocks soem people. My wife, acting as my wife, is put ahead of my kids. Her needs, her wants, her desires...all come before my children. Now, does that mean I ignore my kids? Or not feed them? Or not love them? Or not do everything I should to be there for them, protect them and help them grow up? Of course not. These two things (wife versus children) really arent an either-or deal. I can love my wife this way AND love my kids the way they needed.

Most people say "I cant believe you would put your spouse before your kids." And these are the same people that wake up thirty years later, spent all of their time loving their kids...and then look at each other in the empty nest and say "I dont know you."

This same issue is with God. I put my priorities as God, wife, kids, family, Virginia, USA. They are not in opposition to each other. I can do all of them. but if one of them goes out of bounds, then the others become more important. It is why General Lee chose to go with the South...because being a Virginian came before being an American (it is that way with me!!).

Well, being a Christian comes before being Mr. Mortarman. if there is a conflict, I will and must always side with Christ.

It is that simple. And my wife used to profess this. I had a woman that didnt know about all of this, that used to be in Bible study with her, coem up to me a few weeks ago when she learned of what my wife has done. Her comment to me? "Mrs. MM used to say in the women's study that it didnt matter who our husbands are, that this is a covenant and we first owe Christ our all in our marriages. I believed her. I still believe it, although she has turned out to be a hypocrite."

My wife on our wedding day, as we were waitign for the reception to begin afterwards, was staning in a room alone with me for the first time as husband and wife...and she said to me "MM, you know this is for life, right? You know that there is no divorce?" of course, I said yes.

But the point is...that she used to know that Jesus came first before Mr. Mortarman. Before her kids. Before Mrs. Mortarman.

Now it is all turned upside down. Mrs. Mortarman is on the throne.

In His arms.

MM:

As a woman I do understand what Mulan is saying in that your wife needed you. However as a Christian wife/woman I know and believe what you are saying. I used to believe that my h could fulfill my every need, however I was very wrong, only JESUS can do that. And for me to learn that I had to go through some very hard lessons. I am very thankful for those lessons.

One that I have learned is that my h will fail me and not just once but several times. Just as I will fail him. Howver JESUS will never fail me and that brings me so much more comfort and peace than believing in my h ever will. It also has freed up my h in some ways.

Maybe that is one of the things that has happened with your wife is that she holds the resentment of her needs not being fulfilled against you. And instead of looking to the one to fulfill the deep needs she was looking to you and of course you could not. Now she has found someone else to try to do that.

I believe you have tried and tried to make your marriage work. We are all not perfect and we all make mistakes as we go through this time. None of us can expect you to be perfect in this walk. You have given your wife four years to find her way back, and she continues to walk the way she is.

My prayers for all of you.