BJS,

I have no doubt that you are correct here.

Thank you.

In His arms.

BJS said:



Sorry about the threadjack. However, I need to share that FOR ME this has been a POSITIVE OUTCOME of my H's affair.

Beautifully stated, BJS...

MM,

I hope you don't feel my post to you was a downer. When I say she "won", I am saying she is going to get what she claims she wants. You are going to get what you NEED...peace.

If I were running your world and I am not, I would simply tell her that she "won", and that she has in fact ground down your will to try and save the marriage any more. I would tell her that all you truely want is peace in your life and love.

MM, do you know the difference between a child and an adult?

A child NEEDS what they want, an adult WANTS what they need. You cannot make your W grow up, change, or see what you see. She could do all of those things if she wanted to and you have given her all you knew how to give in order for her to have that chance. She has refused it.

She may wake up one day. She may regret her decisions or she may not, who is to know. But, it will not make much difference as you will move on in your life a better man, a better father, a better friend, and a better human being. It is all you can do my friend, it is truely all you can do.

God Bless,

JL

I knew what you meant, JL. And I agree!


I have said this...not in so many words...lately. Yesterday, she tried to get me into an argument about court. I just said I wasnt going to talk about court, didnt really want to deal with it...that is why I have an attorney. And that I really am done talking with her about this. But I like the way you said it here, JL. It does ring true.


Describes her to a "T."


Thanks again. You are correct.

In His arms.

Peachy,

I missed this post of yours. And you are correct here. Thanks.

In His arms.

Mulan, I don't profess to understand or know much about your personal situation or "life history," but advocating for things you profess to KNOW are unscriptural is NOT "Christian" and it is NOT ethical or moral. It is flat out wrong. I know of no "kind way to say that" other than to state that you seem to have a "warped" idea of what being a Christian is "supposed to be" and what being "Christ-like" is supposed to be, especially in the context of Marriage.

You said in your latest post, "I understand the choice Mortarman has made. He has chosen to put God first and his wife and family second. I understand that to a committed Christian, that is the ideal situation and is to be highly praised. But some of us find that to be very, very sad.
"

There are at least TWO meanings that one could INFER from your statement, simply because you chose not to speak with clarity.

1. You are "sad" that a divorce may be in the offing. If that is the SOLE thing you are "sad" about, then I am in complete agreement with you. So is God. God "hates" divorce, but allows it for 2 reasons, marital unfaithfulness and/or abandonment.

2. You are "sad" because Mortarman, or anyone for that matter, places God on the "Throne" of their life as LORD, as well as Savior. IF THAT is what you meant by your being "sad," then I stand in firm opposition to your reasoning. Humanistically speaking, we ALL want to be held in "highest esteem" by our mate, and should be. But in the final analysis, BOTH husbands and wives are SERVANTS of the one true LORD and Master, God.

IF someone does not have God in their life, then the "Throne" is open to whoever they wish to enthrone there, and they can change the occupant of that throne whenever they wish, for THEY, themselves claim sovereignty over their lives. It is NOT SO for Christians.

Jesus placed obedience to the Father ahead of Peter, ahead of his human mother and father, ahead of HIS own desire to NOT die by crucifixion. And we are to be "like Christ." We are to follow God in humble obedience and submission to HIS commands, no matter what or how we are "feeling." That submission, in love, one to another is what is called a "Posture of Servanthood." That is, we do NOT "lord it over" our spouse, we lovingly submit to each other as God has commanded and as God has directed us in the fulfillment of our dual roles as Christians AND as husbands and wives (one flesh).

In my opinion, it is impossible for a person to truly love Christ and NOT love their spouse.....sacrificially and completely when needed, even through intensely painful times like that which accompanies the betrayal of adultery. But that does NOT include DOING something that is sinful to "prove" their love for their spouse(for example, killing the OP). Nor does it mean allowing willful sin to exist(for example, a lack of repentance from adultery) without standing for God....and that is why we are told that Christ came to "divide...." It is why Christians are warned to NOT be unevenly yoked.

It is why God allows Divorce for certain reasons.

God bless.

FH,

I had to single this post of yours out. It explains my problem now very well. It is that I love her AND I am angry/upset/etc at her continued betrayal. It is a battle that continues. It is a battle that would end immediately, if my wife would just lay down at the feet of Christ and do as He asks. But, I do know...as we continue down this road, that it (the anger and hurt) will also leave as I pursue this peace. As Jesus asks me not to carry it anymore and takes it off my back.

At this point...it is all I ask.

In His arms.

Forever you said:


I don't think you meant this...but I want to make sure that you are not saying that Christ came to DIVIDE husbands and wives...

I agree with you on this:



Is this true of MM, now?

MM, do you feel that this is true of you now?



I've had a question mark about this "lording over" aspect..seems like MM was doing some of this....

Mortarman, in an earlier post, you said God has forgiven
you for your use of PORN but your wife has NOT forgiven you.

Why do you think that is?
How recent did you have this problem?
(Meaning unfaithfulness to your wife through Internet Porn.)

How do you KNOW she hasn't forgiven you?
Is this an issue in your marriage recovering?

I really don't understand why she hasn't forgiven you unless
it was a BIG DEAL to her. Was it?
(Looking at this lurid & rauchy stuff would be a big deal to me.)

If you have read on this forum, it is a BIG PROBLEM in many marriages.

I'll leave FH to explain, since he posted it. I am pretty sure I know what he meant, though.


Yes, I still love my wife intensely. Without a doubt.


Not sure that I have "lorded" it over her. She may say differently, I am not sure. As I have said, for four years, I have shown her love and restraint. it has only been as of late that I have reached the point where I am not capable of continuing to meet any of her needs. It is at that point, that told her that it is either she submits to Jesus or this is done.

Again, I am as filthy as she. Apart from Jesus, I am no worse and no better than the mass murderer. So, I do not hold anything over her head. She got the same treatment and opportunities that your husband got, Mimi. But in your case, your husband in the end showed great courage and integrity (read: honor) to choose to come thru the obvious pain and accept your grace.

As of now, my wife does not have this honor.

In His arms.

MM, we were both posting at 1:47 pm.
Message above yours.

I am still wondering why your wife hasn't forgiven you
for your porn use. How do you know she hasn't?

Just read my questions above. Thanks.

I do not know.


Not sure exactly. I dotn have an exact date on it. Its hold over me ended during the period she had first moved out and left me and the kids (fall 2002/spring 2003). As I said, there have been a few backslides during that period afterwards. But nothing she knew about...those few times happened when she had left. So, there is no current issues with this that would cause her any pain, specifically over the last three years.


Because she keeps bringing it up...with no reason because she doesnt have anything current to have to deal with.


Probably not. She would probably say "yes" on here if she were here. But, how can that be? Porno has not been in our lives the last few years. So, if it is an issue, it is because she chooses to hol onto it and hold the past over my head. Me thinks it is because then she can look at her adultery in a "cleaner" light.


I think the big deal was that we were going thru a tremendously bad financial time back then, and I pulled back from her. She has always had body image issues (although she has a model's body!). So, for me to do that had to hit her self image pretty hard. I accept that. if I could go back, obviously I would nto have doen this. Porno itself wasnt a big deal to her, because we did have those every-so-often-Saturday-nights where we watched together. I think the problem was that she needed her husband...and for whatever reasons I had...I wasnt there for her in the way she needed.


I know!


That is a good thing!

In His arms.

MM, I wish you could see or hear the rigidity that you write with much of the time. It's like seeing a poorly-supported tree buffetted by the wind. I know you believe that Jesus is your rock and that you're solid in Him.

I see responses and defensiveness and blame and reactions that, if you were truly grounded in Jesus in a way that's healthy, you wouldn't need anymore.

I am not trying to attack your faith; anything but. I would like to see it become much, much deeper.

MM, there is a man that I know, a former WH who has turned to God and who has recovered his marriage, that you might want to talk to. I know his wife from a board much like this one. She stayed with me when she went to Plan B. It took them two years after that to come to a true healing. I think you might like to hear how God was used first as a wall -- and then as a bridge -- in their marriage.

Mulan has it right, MM. You've built a wall against your wife. Maybe you need to and maybe you do need peace. I see a whole lot of grieving that will have to happen, a whole lot of healing. You are so angry and so hurt. Please, take the time to deal with these things before you move forward.

Oh, and a few backslides your wife would never know about? That's not the way porn use is, MM. That alone could explain the disconnect your wife would have felt from you. You know the old saw about how men test the emotional temperature once a day, and women test it every five minutes? I dunno whether the part about men is true or not, but I'm pretty sure that the part about women is.

Again, Just J, I dont think I am defensive now. I really dont. I think in my posts, I have said over and over what I believe is the case here. Where I have helped or hurt the cause. As I also said, it is very evident what Jesus is telling me to do now. Very evident. Now, it could be He is telling me to do this because the marriage is over and He wants to move me forward. Or He could be moving me forward and taking that opportunity to work on my wife (and then we will have the ability to reconcile). Unfortunately, the only person that knows the results is God. But my course is set.


I know you are trying to help!!!!!


Of course I would love to hear this. Like I said, I havent closed the door to God working my wife back into this marriage. What I have closed the door to is staying here any longer. If she catches up to me in the end, then I will be thankful. But that result wont be because of me or what we do together. It will be because her and the Lord have wrestled with this and she has come to the realization of what is so obviously the right choice.


I am taking time to deal with these things..as I said above. It is a part of the reason I have chosen this path now...because I do want this gone. My wife's betrayal and then inaction has caused me to have and keep thsi anger. each time I think it is gone, she jumps back in and stirs it again. With interaction with the Troll. With no work on the marriage. With her inability to fill any of my needs. With her continual running away.


I do know how it works. What I said above was there was a few times I did look after I had decided not to three years ago. All of thsoe times happened while she had run away from the family and was out shacking up with the Troll. I have not looked at any of that when she has been with me and we were supposedly working on the marriage. So, there is no way these couple of times could have affected her as she was a little busy at the time.

In His arms.

And note: since those couple of times...there has been no more of that stuff.

In His arms.

Hi MM,

I have been a lurker for years, only posting infrequently. Mostly to do with my H porn use. I hestitate to post to you because of your veteran status, but I've got to get these thoughts out of my head.

I have not read your entire thread, but some of the things I have read have been difficult for me to deal with. I hope you don't mind me trying to sort out my thoughts with you.

You admit to your porn use, but deny that it had any affect on your wife - at least in the last uses since she wasn't even around then, even actively involved with another man. This is hard for me to understand.

No, she probably wasn't directly affected. But YOU were. You disconnected from the only woman you were to have any intimate knowledge of. You did this with the knowledge that it goes against Christian philosophy, and which, in the words of Christ Himself, is adultery. How could that not cause a disconnect from who you are and in turn a disconnecting from your wife (even if she wasn't there)?

You mention that your wife has not shown the tears of remorse you would expect from a repentant person. Have you shown the tears of remorse for your porn usage to your wife? I mean TEARS, not just "it's in the past, I don't do that anymore."

Can you tell this is a hot issue for me? That's where I am with my H right now. His use is in the past. So he says. What happens when he's not happy with me, when I'm not in his presence, when he doesn't get as much SF as he wants, when I am so sick with pregnancy that all I do is sit around? Just telling me it's over, he won't do it again does nothing for me. For all I know, he's done what you did - used it at some point to deal with his sorrow/frustrations, but never bothered to tell me about it.

It hurts me a LOT that my H hasn't shown the remorse you say you want from your wife. Yes, I know your wife's affair was more detailed, different from what my husband did virtually. But he still went to porn instead of me, still received sexual gratification from someone else, still committed adultery. Why is it that virtual adultery is so easily swept under the rug?

And the comment about your wife not having any cause to have poor body image? Well, I don't have a model's body, but if I did, it would crush me that my husband would rather go to a computer for sexual gratification than me, even if it was in the past. I imagine that even if your wife were as repentant was you want her to be, the scars from her affair would take time to heal, yes? Women's scars around porn can be deeper than men can understand. That doesn't mean they aren't real. (And yes, she may be using the porn use to justify her affair. It seems odd that she would watch, even occasionally with you, then be intent on bringing up the porn use. Maybe you could explore that issue with her at some point?)

There's a lot more to your story of course, but your attitude seems so similar to my H's that I just want to scream. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I'm having a great deal of difficulty learning to be compassionate and forgiving. Sometimes I think I never will.

You have every right of course, biblically, to let your wife go. I have every right to let my H go. Paul says to let the unbeliever stay if the unbeliever is of a mind to, but to let the unbeliever go if (s)he so desires. I have no idea how Hosea was able to stay married to Gomer as he did. It's a struggle every day for me to want to stay with my H - and my story of infidelity is as mild as they come.


Well, this post certainly brought to the fore some of MY issues. LOL. I wish the best for you. God grant you peace and grace.

SLA

No need to qualify...everyone is welcome!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


No problem. Really.


Yes, I was affected. I this time, I was actually affected for the better. How? because the couple of times that I did since I had decided to stop, it just re-affirmed what I was doing (stopping) and showed me how useless it was. You are correct about Christ. It was at this time that I was getting even closer to Jesus. And as I got closer, He demanded that I give up more and more of what I had held onto before. This was a good process.


Yes, I have. In front of my wife. I have asked her forgiveness. I have repented. I have repented because I have turned from this.


All true. In my case, I did tell my wife...but she was hurting and couldnt deal with it. But you are correct...it has to be out front and there has to be heart-felt repentance. The same as with affairs.


I dont know. I know it damages just as much. Maybe because there isnt another person involved. I really dont know. I know I havent tried to sweep it under the rug. I know how destructive it is to a woman.


Maybe I can. I think I know the issue though. She didnt mind the use before, because we did it together and it was a part of us together. But, when she continually began to reject my advances...mostly due to our financial problems that were pulling us further apart, I ended up working downstairs late on some projects I was trying to do in order to correct our financial issues. While there, instead of coming upstairs and maybe deal with a bad mood or rejection, it was easier to just stay there. Not an excuse. I would not do it again, if I had another chance. But maybe that helps you understand what happened. I didnt want the computer or TV. I wanted my wife. I wanted her when she ballooned from 135lbs to 210lbs when she was pregnant. But at the time, I had no idea how to get thru to her (I didnt know what I did now) and the rejections were not helping our problems.


I think maybe that typing here leaves out a lot, like facial expressions and emotions. I think I used to talk and look at the porno stuff as your husband does. I can assure you that the last three years...that has not been the case. I know what it has meant. And I am indeed truly sorry!


And my prayers for you. Thank you for posting. I hope what I posted helped you understand better what I meant. And believe me...your post just confirmed what I had learned...that porno is VERY damaging to a woman and a marriage.

In His arms.

MM,

Thank you much for your gracious reply.

I wonder sometimes if I'm more like your wife than I care to admit. I caught my H in porn after 6 years of use, after 13 years of being with him. He had always, always told me porn was not something that interested him, something that God abhored, something he would never stoop to. He portrayed himself as more moral, more in control of himself, more aware of the damge porn can cause than he actually was.

So, even though my marriage coach tells me he is repentant, he is willing work on the marriage, I don't seem to be able to hear it very well. I don't really know what I expect from him. I would like to see the tears rolling down his face. Unfortunately for me, that most likely won't happen due to his personality.

I must be identifying with your wife. I am a Christian and agree with all the theology you've brought to the table - but to say someone was never saved because she's acting in an un-Christlike manner seems terribly, terribly judgmental. I can't imagine how numbing that could be to someone who is already lost in their emotions, unable to find their way back to God, husband or children.

But you are right. Typing can't convey everything and leaves a lot out.

My marriage coach is working with us to embrace the Stosny techniques Just J told you about. It's pretty powerful stuff. I am reminded over and over again through it's implementation how very, very compassionate Christ is. I seem to be fighting it, much to my dismay.

Again, all my issues are coming up. I hope I haven't stepped on your toes. Thanks again for replying.

SLA

Hi Mimi. I don't want to "hijack" MM's thread or "talk around or about him" indirectly, but you do deserve an answer directly, AND MM said he chooses to leave it up to me to answer directly. Therefore, let's turn to your post and I'll try to answer what you were asking/commenting about.




Husbands and Wives are people who individually are people whom Christ came to save. And, YES, Christ did come to DIVIDE those who do not accept Him from those who do. THAT WAS the purpose in His coming.

[color:"red"]"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but sword. For I have come to turn

"'a man against his father,
a daugher against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mohter-in-law -
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter mre than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will find it."[/color] (Matthew 10:32-39 NIV)

Therefore, "be ye NOT unevenly yoked." "If an unbeliever leaves, let them go." If a believer commits adultery, the faithful spouse has the unconditional RIGHT to a divorce. They are NOT required to "Try" or to change to make themselves more "acceptable" to their spouse, or to be "understanding" of the unfaithful spouse's choice to commit adultery, or to DO anything. They already DID all that was necessary, they committed to FIDELITY in marriage and remained faithful to that commitment.

The RIGHT exists....however, so does recovery when the Unfaithful Spouse truly repents and turns to God and Spouse IN REPENTANCE of their sin, surrendering in humble obedience to God and seeking forgiveness with their contrite heart, recommitted to Christ being on the throne of their life. It is THEN preferable, despite the "Right" to divorce, to exercise Grace and Mercy and Forgiveness...AS GOD HAS FORGIVEN US of our many sins against Him.

If I am "in Christ" and He stands at the door and "knocks," and the sinner opens the door and Christ comes in to dwell with that sinner, then I also go where Christ leads, in to live with that sinner who happens to be my spouse. Genuine repentance of sin is what God wants and is the "prerequisite" to his "coming in to live with you." False repentance, just like false recovery, is dependent upon the "hardness" of the sinners heart, not upon anything the Faithful Spouse does. One cannot have BOTH a hardened sinful heart AND Christ dwelling in their heart. It IS "one or the other," by choice of the individual. And the Faithful Spouse is "bound" by the that choice of the Unfaithful Spouse no matter how much they love the Unfaithful Spouse and wish it "were not so." A spouse who "goes where Christ will not go or where Christ will not lead" has only himself/herself to "blame" when things do not work out.




Yes, it's true of Mortarman just as it is true of the "bridegroom" of the world, Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son....
This is love, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

[color:"red"]"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate." [/color] (Matthew 23:37-38 NIV)

Christ loved the world completely and sacrificially, but not all are saved despite His having done EVERYTHING that was needed. All that remains for anyone to RECEIVE His complete love is to receive and accept Him. THEY choose, despite Jesus's complete and sacrificial love for them, or perphaps "in spite" of His willingness to forgive them and "start anew."




Leadership is NOT "lording it over" someone when the focus of that leadership is Christ. Husbands are given the ROLE of spiritual leader in the home and wives are commanded by God "obey and respect" their husband's leadership "in the Lord." In that sense, it is very similar to the role of Paster as "shepard of flock." He is "no better" than any member of the flock and serves best as "leader" while performing that role from a perspective of servanthood, leading, instructing, teaching God's revealed will FOR THE HONOR AND GLORY OF GOD, not of himself. It all goes back to "who sits on the throne of your life as Sovereign?" It is either the individual, God, or Satan. Of THAT "trinity" of choices there is ONLY one "good choice."

Obedience to God, and stating that obedience to God is something God requires from us, is NOT "lording it over" a spouse. "If you love me, you will obey my commands," was Christ speaking, not Mortarman, me, or anyone else.

Christ IS Lord, has the sovereign right to command, and to "lord it over us" because He IS LORD.

God bless.

Mortarman,

Just J said:



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MM, there is a man that I know, a former WH who has turned to God and who has recovered his marriage, that you might want to talk to. I know his wife from a board much like this one. She stayed with me when she went to Plan B. It took them two years after that to come to a true healing. I think you might like to hear how God was used first as a wall -- and then as a bridge -- in their marriage.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That man is my H and while I do know Just J from a board much like this one, we first met here when I was struggling with the decision of whether or not to go into Plan B to end my H’s A. I have never been much of a poster and no longer even lurk here anymore, but back then, (middle to end of 2003), I read many of your posts and want to thank you for your posts about Plan B – they really helped me.

I only skimmed this thread, but I wanted to comment on the many parallels between your situation and mine. In my case, it was my H who had the A, who was financially irresponsible, and who never “shed a tear of remorse” over his A. Despite a no contact letter, he, too, was “open” to hearing from the OW and nearly two years after the NC letter was sent, spent the day with her. I can therefore strongly relate to your experience as a betrayed spouse and the struggle to forgive and let go of anger and resentment.

However, at the same time, I have much empathy for your wife because my H, like you, has very thorough knowledge of the Bible, very deep faith, and he conveyed this information in a way that occurred to me as very judgmental. My H became saved during my Plan B and has put his relationship with Jesus at the center of his life in a way that I believe few are able to sustain. For the past 2 + years he has read the Bible for hours each day, has nearly stopped working to pursue his ministry, and has become ordained as a pastor – and is now part of the pastoral staff of a large evangelical church that you are probably familiar with in the Washington DC area. He has become a spiritual leader not just in his home, but in all of the communities in which he is a part, people seek him out from far and wide for spiritual guidance. But his faith did little to heal our marriage, if anything it impeded our recovery. Although it was he who had the A and destabilized our family financially, he was able to find plenty of Biblical support for constant judgment of me and reasons to question my salvation. Nearly two years into recovery, I felt it would be a lie to say I loved my H. I was absolutely committed to my M and to my kids growing up in a family with both parents, yet pretty much all I felt toward my H was anger and resentment. When my H spent the day with the OW last November, I was ready to give up. To me, the two years we spent in recovery were nothing but one long self-righteous lecture followed by another betrayal.

We were in a very bad place after two years of very little progress toward healing our M. and yet all was not lost. Over the past 5 months we have transformed our marriage to the point that it is unrecognizable, even to us. It is not perfect by a long shot, but I no longer question that we will make it. Two things changed over the past 5 months. First, we both refocused our efforts on healing our own deep hurts rather than expecting the other to heal us, and second, we changed the way we interacted and related to each other so that is was done from a base of compassion rather than a base of judgment.

I am deeply, deeply saddened by this thread and how you have decided to resolve your situation. It is a tremendous loss and no amount of being “right” about it will make up for that loss. I truly wish for another path for you and your family.