"I have nothign to converse with her about. I have no interest in talking to her. I have no interest in acting like things are hunky-dorey. I am not being silent because I am mad at her. I am silent because I truly have nothign to say to her. I respond to her questions and statements. I tell her stuff concerning the kids and house, etc. Besides that...I have nothing to say. That is NOT abusive."

Believe me, MM, when I say that I know exactly what you are talking about here. I've been living without a recovery plan for nearly 4 1/2 years now. Much of the time, I've just been living. Doing stuff that needs 2 be done, sure, but pretty much just surviving in a broken M, not knowing what's going 2 become of it in the long haul. Repeated discoveries of continued contact, even after RM remarried last fall. Maybe contact still, though I don't think so (but I've thought that more than once in the past 2ple years).

All the while, I've had 2 detach. Had 2. At first it was hard, but it's gotten easier and easier with time. No MB plan, it's gone on far 2 long (sick) for that. Plan 2long. Waiting and hoping. Kind of like plan MM in some ways.

Much of the time, even now that things are going well at home, we talk far less (about "deep" stuff) than we should. In the past 3 years or so, though, I would go long stretches without talking 2 her, sort of "on purpose." ...because I didn't have anything 2 say, or even anything 2 respond 2. Is that abuse?

...HECK YEAH, it's abuse!! Maybe you and I might not think we're being abusive, but having been at the receiving end of the silent treatment more than once in my time, I KNOW that's abuse. Rather cruel abuse, 2.

And it's not just unfair 2 the person you're being silent 2, it's unfair 2 you. How can you eschew your highest sense of self by treating others that way, when without 2 much effort, or emotional investment, you can take a few small steps 2 chip away at the walls between you?

But what must be the goal of that? I don't mean that you (or I) should burn ourselves out 2 tear down the barriers or even force an end 2 an A, because that might very well not be the ultimate outcome. Rather, the goal is more personal. You believe strongly the things you do. I have strong spiri2al beliefs of my own. Our goals, different though they may be in specifics, are 2 show the world around us who we are as men and how we care, really, how we are perceived by those we meet. Never mind the 70's apathy: "what do you care what other people think," I do care, 2 the extent that I can correct misperceptions about me without lowering my own standards 2 do so. I also care about how others feel, and if I can have a positive influence on how they feel - again without compromising myself in the process - I've got a responsibility, I think, 2 do so.

So, what do I do? (and perhaps, what should you consider?). I put more effort in2 making conversation, making jokes, doing silly stuff. (trying a lot of the ideas that Still Seeking has been suggesting for 4 years I try). Even telling her exactly what I feel or believe about some "deep subject" that may have come up in one way or another.

Doing that successfully requires making yourself vulnerable. When my W's EA was clearly still going on, I had a very hard time doing that because I "knew" that my "vulnerabilities" as she saw them (really, her perception that I was weak) were getting back 2 RM, and I was imagining them laughing about me or scheming behind my back at my expense. Over time, though, I realized they could not harm me with their thoughts. Really, they were only ever able 2 harm themselves. Like you, I couldn't possibly expect 2 "get through" 2 my W while she was involved in any way with RM, so I backed off trying so hard 2 do so. When I did, the biggest positive changes started happening.

Letting go is good. I believe you're doing that regarding your W's plans 2 file for DV again. That's good. But I'm not sure you've completely let go of the need 2 educate her (though I can understand how frustrating it must feel, because the stuff you're educating her with is stuff she professed 2 know herself).

"You're right...I dont get it. It is not a DJ to call divorce wrong. It is not a DJ to call her relationship with the Troll wrong. It is not a DJ to, as the spiritual head of my household, to point out that she is in fact, not following the Lord she professes to believe in. Those are NOT DJs."

...like that. No, they're not DJs, but they're not productive either, are they? And if they're not productive, why are you still doing them? When are you going 2 try something else? (other than clamming up, that is).

"Yes, she knows how I feel. As I said, these statements and feelings have materialized when she wanted to file and I realized the Troll was still around. The last year, I gave her the benefit-of-the-doubt. I blindly began to try to work with her and move forward. And met rejection after rejection."

And you are learning, as I have learned in my own sitch, that you can't work with her on the M and move it forward under those circumstances. So, what different are you doing? Follow the MB plans again, if you have the energy, or come up with a MM plan that changes how you feel about what's going on. Don't just perpe2ate the stalemate.

"There wasnt any talk of any of this. I wasnt even thinking about that. I was jsut workign my butt off and hoping that with effort and time, she would come around. She never did! And 2Long is probably right...because contact with the Troll probably never ended."

Again, like me, you've got 2 decide 2 let go of this approach, since it doesn't/didn't work.

"I am a bond slave of my Lord Jesus Christ. I no longer own myself. No true Christian owns themselves anymore. When we asked Jesus into our lives, we said that we were surrendering. That Jesus gets the Throne. Which means, ANY way but His way is the WRONG way! All the time! I do not grovel at the feet of Jesus. I remain, in His arms."

Feet. Arms. Thrones. Ways. Bending knees. FH, this is what I mean by jargon clouding my view of the message. MM, this is pretty rigid stuff. ...just an observation.

"When I talk of being at the feet of Jesus, I am talking about a position. He is Lord. We are lesser than Him. We have no right to disobey. We do...and it is His grace that keeps us in fellowhip with Him (He has every right to destroy all of us...but He doesnt due to love)."

This is personal. If it's something your W should "know", why not let her figure it out without you offering your opinion at all? Put your effort elsewhere (chipping away at that wall, for example).

"How am I supporting my wife's spiritual growth? By pointing her to Jesus. By always pointing her to Jesus. He is the Truth. He can cleanse her. He can help her. He is the one she has rebelled against, not me."

In not so many words, this is like rubbing a dog's nose in the mess they made on the kitchen floor. Only your W isn't a dog, she knows (or is capable of knowing) that it's her mess. Why not let her figure out she needs 2 clean it up on her own? Do you somehow think she can't make amends with Jesus if you don't keep reminding her she needs 2 do that?

"I do so in the fact that I have asked her to go to counseling...and she hasnt."

Let go... ...and maybe someday she will.

"I have asked her to go to the pastor...and she wont."

Let go... ...and maybe someday she will.

"I have asked her to do Bible study and prayer with me...and she wont."

Let go...

"I have asked her to just spend time with me, and she wont."

Let go...

"You see, for her, there is a wall there that she has put up. I have tried to get around it in so many ways. I have now decided to just sit down and turn it over to Jesus."

It's a judgment of yours that she has put up a wall, though it's probably just as true as it is that you've put a wall yourself (the silent treatment). Again, though, instead of "sitting down and 2rning it over 2 Jesus" (in your words), why not try something you haven't yet? There are otherways 2 tear down barriers besides hitting them with sledge hammers.

"Not trying to enforce slavery. Where do you get that? Have you read the link at the bottom of my post? Do you understand what God requires from husbands and wives?"

Is it possible her spiri2al walk with God is requiring something different from her at this point in time?

"I am commanded to love her as He loves us. And that means to die for her."

Interesting thought. What, besides what you've been doing, might that mean that you haven't touched on yet? Anything? (just thinking out loud).

"We are all slaves of someone. We all either serve Jesus or satan. We cannot get around that."

Well... ...okay, not relevant 2 this thread, but I will cheerfully go around that! I'm no slave, except perhaps 2 my own misconceptions and assumptions. Secularly, that's saying the same thing you just said, though. Something 2 think about.

"We want to as humans to elevate ourselves to the level of God and think we get to call the shots in our lives. That we make life into our image. And we sadly wake up one day and find out that it was all a lie.

My wife used to know this. It was her that said these things throughout the early part of our marriage. it is why so many that were around her then call her a hypocrite now."

I'm trying 2 think of a helpful way 2 respond here. What if there was no A, no Troll, and she were still "rebelling"? What would that indicate (assuming such a scenario is possible)? One way 2 address this, perhaps, would be 2 try interacting with your W as if the Troll doesn't exist (knowing, of course, that he does). I was advised 2 do that by a 2ple counselors myself. In your case, it'd be like accepting that this Troll-inclusive life is who your W is right now, and finding a way you can coparent with her after the DV in a civil fashion. Because, won't you still feel the need 2 be able 2 do that?

"Standing by to see where she takes things from here. She is no longer allowed to sit on the fence. Her fence sitting has come to an end."

She will do what she will do. I'm not going 2 address that because she's not here 2 describe it. (and Mrs MM, if you're reading this, by all means please start your own thread and tell us what's on your mind) What will you do?

"My concern now is that is she is going to continue down her path, then it is time that she meet the consequences of her actions."

Indeed.

"Four years is enough."

Not necessarily.

-ol' 2long

MM: You have chosen to put your religion above your marriage. I know that many people do this, but I hope you will still be content with this choice in 5, 10, 15 or 20 years.

I hope your children will be content with it.

I am in no way condoning your wife's destructive choices, but I also have no doubt that whenever she did go looking for her husband all he did was order her to go find Jesus first.

Is your religion really so cold and harsh as all that? Apparently it is; you and ForeverHers keep insisting that it has to be this way.

Okay. No doubt it's easier to say that your religion requires you to turn your back on her and walk away and that's why you're doing it, instead of just saying, "I want out. She hurt me too much. I want her punished but I don't want to look like the bad guy for wanting that. So I'll let my religion do it instead."

You are insisting that your wife take Jesus *now* and maybe get her husband *later*.

But I'd bet your house that your wife wants her husband *now* and maybe get Jesus *later*.

Guess who's going to win?

From what you have posted here, she has made some rather clumsy attempts to reconnect with you. She has come to you as a wife and a women, but each time you have coldly turned your back on her and ordered her to get right with God first.

I guess I keep wondering: If Jesus would accept her just as she is right now, why can't you? If she's good enough for Jesus, why isn't she good enough for you, when she does make these awkward attempts to reach you?
Mulan

MM:

I get confused by you stating that you expect your WW to EVIDENCE respect for you but you are not EVIDENCING your LOVE for her. Even though you do not FEEL LOVE for her, how have you demonstrated your love for her?

A woman sees through different glasses.

Have you shared YOURSELF with her?

Have you been OPEN AND HONEST with her about YOURSELF?

I agree with you. HUSBANDS NEED RESPECT BUT ALSO WIVES NEED LOVE.

"Each one of you also must LOVE his wife as he LOVES himself, and the wife must RESPECT her husband"-Ephesians 5:33.

It works both ways.

JustJ, you are "quoting out of context" in this assertion. Without knowing what specific statement you think I said, let me give it to you as succinctly as I know how.

1. ALL sin is anathema to God.
2. Sins HAVE differing levels of severity to God and to Man. For example; Marriage can be dissolved and the faithful spouse NOT commit adultery if they later marry again, but that's not true for the unfaithful spouse or for divorce for reasons other than "marital unfaithfulness." Clearly a differing level of "sin" that Jesus made clear to the Pharisees.

Next, ALL sins but one are forgivable by God. Blasphemy against the Father and blasphemy against the Son are also forgivable, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is NOT forgivable and is the one unforgivable sin. Clearly another "ranking" of severity of sin.

MM is NOT trying to avoid his past responsibilities. He has changed them (i.e., Porn usage) and repented of them.

3. "pointing the finger at her in order to take the focus off of MM's actions is probably not a good idea."
Okay, so WHAT "actions" of MM are sinful that he is trying to avoid addressing by saying that his wife needs to repent of HER sins and surrender her will to God? It is a FACT that his wife needs to repent and surrender to God, so I'm assuming that you don't have an issue with that fact. So his telling his wife that she needs to do that is NOT an "action" he needs to repent of, it is what I would expect of any Christian who is trying to help a sinning brother or sister in Christ to recognize their sin and repent, in order that they might be restored to fellowship. God has furthermore made it clear that Christians are NOT supposed to be "unevenly yoked," so if she is a Christian, she needs to repent. If she is not, she needs to accept Christ and surrender her life. WHAT is "disrespectful" about telling someone that they need to obey God IF they claim to HAVE accepted Christ?




JustJ, NO ONE, certainly not MM is trying to "Force" his wife to submit to God. But saying that a Christian is supposed to surrender their will to God, even if they don't "feel like it," is NOT trying for "force" someone or being "disrespectful." That is WHAT the Scripture teaches.

Telling his wife that she needs to repent and surrender to God MAY be "ineffective," but it is NOT harmful. To say nothing, thereby giving silent assent that her behavior is NOT sinful WOULD be harmful.

Mimi,

I will answer you first and then move backwards on the other posts.


Mimi, we are friends so if I sound a little testy here, please excuse me. My patience is wearing thin right now...and I am definitely not a happy camper these days!

One thing that will apply to most of these posts I have to say right now. It is evidenced in your statement here and in Mulan's entire post. Everyone is assuming that I have been standing over my wife with my arms crossed ready to bring down lightening from Heaven if she doesnt repent. And maybe it is my fault that you have this impression. Folks, everything Mulan just said, your deal above Mimi about me not evidencing my love...is NOT true!!

Folks, you take a few posts by me that were specifically dealing with certain aspects of things, and some of the specific struggles I was/am having...and projected them as if they are the norm. And they are not.

How have I evidenced love for my wife? Well, until last Friday (and I will tell you what happened then)...I have shown her a man that is constantly there for her. When she was hurting last week...even with the court deal coming up in mere days...I came in and rubbed her hurting back (she was in a car accident last summer and her back is stil la mess). This parrots when she left me and the kdis to be with the OM and got her own apartment. One day, she was almost deathly ill. I got my mom to watch the kids, I took three days of leave from work, and I sat in that "love nest" with her and nursed her back to health.

I have constantly put her needs and wants before my own. I have asked her to spend time. I have tried to make sure her ENs have been met. By any stretch of the imagination, I have gone over and above the call of duty in showing her that I love her.

Last Friday, after court, she came home mad as a hornet. And she began to say things to me that I cannot repeat here. Comparison stuff with the OM. Degrading stuff. Folks, at that point...I was done with this alien. I knwo the things she was saying arent true. But that doesnt matter. The fact she was saying them...the fact that one more time she was INTENTIONALLY trying to hurt me...well, my patience has worn thin.

Besides the adultery and all, her other actions have been abusive over the last 4 years. She has physically assaulted me on 4 occasions (I am an Infantry guy, so no real danger on her hurting me...but it is abuse nonethesame). She has threatened me over and over again. She has disrespected me. She has not met ONE need of mine at ANY time. Not any of the top 5, at least. And the others she may have met were incidental (like having a nice home...she keeps it that way for herself, not me).

And, with her not meeting my needs...with her abusing me...with her threatening me...with her taking me to court and trying to take my kids away and destroy my family...what has she received in return?

For the most part...love. I am not going to say I have done it perfectly. Dazed has done a far better Plan A than I. But folks, I have on 98% of the days during this...given her nothign but love, compassion, an open ear. Sure, I can be hard to talk to sometimes. I never was a good listener. I have told her that...and told her that I am working on that. And I am much better in that than I used to be.

But, I just needed to say this because I dont know where all of this is coming from. I do love my wife, or I wouldnt still be there. I dont feel love for her right now because she has kicked this dog for 4 years. And showed no love in return. But honestly, some of your posts dont represent anythign that is actually going on here. As I said, maybe it is because I did nto fully explain. I dont know.


Yes. Sometimes more than I wish I had of.


Yes. Sometimes more than I wish I had of.


And she gets it from me. I have reached the limits of my patience in getting it from her, though.

That is the point I have been trying to make.

In His arms.

MM:

I don't mind if you sound testy. I understand.

You said:



But what if hse has reached her limits in trying to get LOVE from you in the way that she needs it...

I'm not finished responding to you but wanted to make this point right quick...

Will be back a little later...

Mulan,

Most of what you wrote here is just dead wrong. It isnt what has happened and isnt what is happening in my house.

Yes, I do put my relationship with the very real, very alive Jesus...before my wife. Just as I would always put my relationship with my very real, and very alive wife before any other human, including my kids.

Yes, Jesus comes first. Yes, under normal circumstances, my wife would come before my kids. What is wrong with that??

They arent mutually exclusive. They can all be taken care of in harmony to each other. But if one of them goes out of whack (well, God cant go out of whack...so if one of the other two goes out of whack)...then I must side with the priority list.

If one of my kids were 17, and was being verbally abusive to my wife. I will side with my wife. Always. If one of my kids wants to go to McDonalds, but my wife wants to go to Burger King...we go to Burger King. Now, of course we could go to both...and that is the point. If it is possible to take care of both, then you do both.

But in the case of my wife, it is not possbile for me to NOT be the spiritual head of my house. It is NOT possible for me to back away from Jesus in order to move closer to my wife. Jesus comes before Mrs. MM.

The Bible speaks that their is a very small path that those that will make it to Heaven walk. I am learning now just how small that path is...and how so few people are on it. This saddens me more than you know!

In His arms.

Good question. I guess she goes and shacks up with the Troll. That has been her response up until now.

You see, my patience is gone now. Not my love. Not even my hope. Not my prayers. It means, as someone put it above...that I am tired...and the Coach has put me on the bench to rest. I am not in the game right now...and I am not sad about that. But I do have the uniform on. I do have a vested interest in the game. I will re-enter the game if the Coach says I should. But right now, I am sitting on the bench, catching my breath and having a Gatorade.

Someone else gets to fight this battle for awhile. I'm tired.

In His arms.

FH...good points.

In His arms.

I will get to everyone else's posts in about an hour! As I said to Mimi above, please excuse my testiness. I am very crabby when I am low on sleep.

In His arms.

MM:

Well, alrighty then. ;o)

Here's a suggestion, then, based on the assumption (I hate assumptions) that we've misinterpreted your posts up until now.

How 'bout trying something completely different?

Don't mention your W at all. Don't guess or even report what she's doing, what you think she's thinking, what she says she's thinking/doing, at all.

Talk about MM, and his MBuilding efforts 2 recover himself and his family (or what's left of it) from this trying past 4 years?

If Mrs MM wants her side told, she can tell it herself.

-ol' 2long

MM:

First of all, I think your very last post about being tired and wanting to sit on the bench is very honest and heartfelt. I appreciate that post and fully understand what you are saying in it.

You said:



I.personally, don't see you this way, MM.

Thanks for explaining how you have EVIDENCED your LOVE for her. You clearly have.

"Leaning on the Everlasting Arm"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Good points 2Long.

Really, I am doing nothing right now. I am resting. I am really not making any effort at meeting ENs. I am not pursuing a divorce, nor even preparing myself for one right now. The last 4 days, Mrs. MM and me may have talked for all of 5 minutes. After last Friday, I am not interested in talking to her. And it appears the same goes for her right now.

So, that's what I am doing...or not doing. Just taking a rest, licking my wounds and waiting for word on what my next mission is.

For the first time in 4 years...I am resting.

In His arms.

Thanks Mimi. As I said, I dont want to come off right now as bitter or whatever. I am just tired right now. It has been a long battle.

Do I think it is over for sure? No. The Lord knows what will happen. But I do know that I am taking myself out of the picture for a little while and get my bearings. I have been in the "fight" for so long, that I really cant remember what it is to rest.

For those that have known me and read what I have posted on here...I have not changed my mind about things. I am still the same guy you have known here. I am just tired right now. This last round took a lot out of me.

So, dont lose heart...because I havent lost heart. There may still be hope for this marriage. I have no idea. All I know is right now, I need a break from the mess. If I dont, then this marriage will definitely be doomed.

So, let me catch my breath. Get a few zzzz's. And I'll get back in the battle.

Thanks.

In His arms.

2Long,

You wrote this long post and I wanted to give it a response.


Similar.


Well, I am not giving her the silent treatment, per se. I am jsut not interested in talking to her. I have nothing to say to her. I respond to her questions. I give her information. But, like the other night when she was telling about her day at work (I was always interested in what happened at the hospital...she would even wake me at 2am to tell me about things there). I really was not interested in listening, or conversing about it. For the first tiem ever, I really had nothign to say about it. No questions. No discussion. So, she said the things about what happened. And my response? Not much. Just a "that's nice." As I said, I am jsut not interested in having a conversation with her. But I dont do the abusive silent treatment, where I would jsut sit there and not answer her questions and the like. I just dont try to talk to her. And when she wants to talk liek everythign is normal, well I just dont have anything to say.


I dont have the energy to do that right now.


I do not have the energy nor the interest in doing this right now. I am spent.


I did these things for much of the last 4 years. As I said, right now...I do not have it in me.


Not educating her now. Not really saying anything to her now.


Already have, 2Long. As I said, I know about educating a WS. I have shied away from that. I know the principles here, and have done them. They have not been received fully by her. Sure, the partially were...thus we did have these false recoveries. But during those false recoveries, did I try to educate her? Nope. Did I bring up the OM and their past? Nope. I was concentrating on moving forward with her.

It is RIGHT NOW that I am at thsi point where I would really rather be right than married. It hasnt been that way the last 4 years. It really hasnt. But after last Friday, and the things she said. After the last few months, where she has tried to take everything. After the last 4 years, where she has continued to show her lack of moral character and shown nothing but disrespect to me...I have reached the point right now where I think she needs to get the consequences of her actions. I think both her and the Troll need to realize what their actions entail. I think she needs to realize just how much she has here and just how far I have gone for her. And how is that going to happen? Well, by losing all of it...and much more. As I said, the Lord said He will not be mocked. And she has stood here for over 4 years and stuck her toungue out at Him and said "I can do whatever I want." Well, sure she can. She has freewill. But God has freewill also. Just as my son has freewill to rebel against me, I still have freewill to put my hand on his backside.

As I continue to say...I am tired. Not just physically or emotionally. I am tired of the mess. It is time where she no longer gets to call the shots. She no longer sets the agenda of this family or this marriage. If she wants out...then go. If she wants in, then get in. The fence is no longer an option. I am not going to accept that any more. I am blowing up that fence!


Which is why I am doing what I just said above. The stalemate...the fence...is gone. I wont allow it one day further. Even if that means she leaves for good. So be it.


As I just said, I have let go. She has a decision to make. She can either commit to the marriage...or go. No middle ground. Not ever again.


It is rigid, isnt it? But it really isnt in practice. Why? Because it isnt a list of rules and regualtions. It is a relationship. Jesus loved me enough to die for me. How do I repay that love? "If you love me you will keep my commandments." Well, He has told me how to love Him back. To not do so, is to spit on the very sacrifice He made for me. If that is rigid, then so be it. But what I see is a loving relationship between me and Jesus, where I do not want to hurt Him. I want to honor the love He showed me by doing as He asked.


I really dont talk about this with her. Every so often. And it isnt an educational type discussion when it has happened. It has been more a reminder. Like "I am divorcing you and goign to the Troll." Response: "Well, you know you do so without the Lord."


No, I dont. What I am talking about is this. If my daughter was having a problem with her husband, I would send her back to her husband to work it out. My wife's problem is with Jesus, not with me. So, I just tell her that it is that relationship she must deal with and repair first if her and I are to ever to have a chance. She must repair that relationship, or this one is doomed.


As I have.

[/quote]"You see, for her, there is a wall there that she has put up. I have tried to get around it in so many ways. I have now decided to just sit down and turn it over to Jesus."

It's a judgment of yours that she has put up a wall, though it's probably just as true as it is that you've put a wall yourself (the silent treatment). Again, though, instead of "sitting down and 2rning it over 2 Jesus" (in your words), why not try something you haven't yet? There are otherways 2 tear down barriers besides hitting them with sledge hammers.[/quote]

As I said...right now, I am not interested in other ways. I need rest. To catch my breath.


No. Because she isnt walkign with God right now. That is evident.


A question I ask myself daily.


As you know, I believe and know of a very real satan. And he has his own agenda. I know you do not agree with this, so I will just pass this by.


Have done this. As I said, the troll wasnt even mentioned over the last year during the false recovery. I cannot even think of one time after she returned his cellphone in January 2005. That is until she filed in January 2006 and mail started showing up from him. As I said, 2Long...I know all of this. That is why I help others. I am not the top of person to say one thing and do another. I am not a newby here.


I have already outlined that. For now...rest. But, the near future means that she is no longer allowed to have ENs met by me without a commitment to the marriage. She has had enough time and enough of my effort and love over the last year to know what can be. Time for her to make a lifelong decision here. And with that decision, she will then decide the rest of her life...and mine. She no longer gets to sit still and do nothing. Those days are over. When I am done resting, then we will see all of this happen.


It is enough for me right now. I rest now. If the Lord says to get up and begin again, then I will. But aside from that, what I will do is pursue the future without her, if she isnt willing to commit. While God does offer grace to everyone, there comes a poitn where He will harden a person heart. He will force that person to stay with their decisions. I have reached the point that I want my wife to have to live with her decisions. And the decision is clear...our marriage and family or whatever befalls her after divorce. It is time.

As I said, I may be wrong. And I do trust the Lord to come alongside and guide me. So it is possible Mortarman could be here a few weeks from now working on the marriage. Possible. I will always bend my knee to Him.

but right now, I rest and wait for orders.

In His arms.

Okay Mulan, since you seem to have both dragged me into your “disrespect zone” and have called Christianity that has God as Sovereign Lord “cold and harsh,” implying that YOUR “version” of “religion” is so much more “warm and fuzzy,” I will respond to your mischaracterizations and disrespectful judgments.

“I guess I keep wondering: If Jesus would accept her just as she is right now, why can't you? If she's good enough for Jesus, why isn't she good enough for you, when she does make these awkward attempts to reach you?”

Jesus does NOT accept her “just as she is right now.” That phrase that you rip out of context and misapply refers to an unbeliever who repents and turns to Jesus for forgiveness and salvation. It does NOT refer to a sinning believer (or for that matter to an unbeliever who does not first accept Jesus) who refuses to repent of that sin. In fact, Adulterers are specifically mentioned as being, if they are unrepentant, as NOT being in Heaven. That’s a fairly strong statement that Jesus does NOT accept her “just as she is right now.” That is Biblical, your statement is your opinion that is NOT based in Scripture. When opinion and Scripture “collide,” for Christians, Scripture “wins out” as it is the Word of God.


“MM: You have chosen to put your religion above your marriage. I know that many people do this, but I hope you will still be content with this choice in 5, 10, 15 or 20 years.

I hope your children will be content with it.”

Okay, and just how many years have you “put up with” your husband’s “Corporate philandering?” Why? What was “in it” for you to not divorce him, to tolerate his continued adulterous actions even when you made it plain that you “didn’t like it and did not agree with it?” Are you content with your decision to remain married regardless of his lack of respect for you and his “bowing down” to the Corporate “Law” that if he put marriage above the “necessities of the job” he might be “passed over” for promotion or possibly even “let go?”


“But I'd bet your house that your wife wants her husband *now* and maybe get Jesus *later*.”

And I’ll bet that is your position vies-a-vie your husband too.

(From Mulan to tr on April 21:

tr, I don't think anyone would consider me to be a proper Christian



Let’s look at another statement you made and see how you, yourself, follow your own advice:


From Mulan to LLG on April 14:

How long to stay in Plan A? Usually, "as long as you can stand it."

This is usually about 2-6 months.

If, however, the following things start happening:

1) Your WS continues happily cake-eating and fence-sitting (and they almost certainly will)

2) Your anger and resentment grows

. . . then it's time for Plan B. You don't want to wait until you hate the sight of your WS until you get relief from their abuse of you. You want to go to Plan B while you still have some love for them left.
Mulan

Mulan, HOW long have you stayed in Plan A? How long did you stay in Plan A before “it’s time for Plan B?” Or was this not Plan A, but "doormat" Plan to keep the "Goodies" of monitary rewards from his employment coming?

And yet you continue to pummel Mortarman for saying, after 4 YEARS of staying and trying and waiting for his wife to join him in recovery efforts, that HE is the problem???


What Mortarman has done, and is doing now, is precisely the same thing that you told Tested Devotion to do:


From Mulan to TestedDevotion on March 29:

***If you tell the WS, "You can have OP or me, but not OP & me." Then it's a demand, no matter how nicely put.***

I submit, however, that if you state this as "You can have the OP if you want, but if you do, I will not participate in any kind of relationship with you any longer," you have not made a demand or an ultimatum.

You have drawn a boundary.

That's very different -- and also far, far more effective than an ultimatum or a demand, assuming you are prepared to enforce the boundary by removing yourself from the relationship (Plan B.)

I think this is what's meant by the statement so often seen here: "You cannot control the WS or the OP. You can only control yourself."
Mulan


Mortarman has “drawn a boundary” that says he will continue to love her, but that as would be expected from ANY Christian, he expects her response to GOD to be one of surrender and humble obedience to GOD’s commands, not MM’s. His boundary is simple, if she WILL NOT exhibit her repentance through visible surrender and obedience to GOD, he cannot “live with her” in a marriage that is NOT surrendered to God. HER CHOICE “triggers” the boundary reaction, not his stating what that boundary IS.



Mulan, the following is your first post on MB on April 12, 2001. In it, your “tolerance” of your husband’s infidelities went on for YEARS, at least 10 years, and then you jump into “disrespectful judgments” because you will no longer tolerate his “abuse” and “lack of respect” for you and for your marriage. HOW is that “better than” what MM is now choosing to do? HOW is Mortarman “at fault” and you were not, for insisting that a spouse “choose to change from their status quo?”

And don't even get me started on Teambuilding <spit>
My husband is a senior manager at a big U.S. corporation. You'd know the name if I mentioned it, but I won't. He has always been a great husband & father & insists he loves me, but he has a pattern of being Every Single-Girl's Boyfriend at work and my husband only *outside* of work.

This has been going on for at least ten years now. He tends to get very attached to one girl - in both cases it's been his next-in-command, so they have to work *very* closely together - and then have a whole squad of others (always young, single, attractive) whom he allows to get very dependent and close to him. He knows all about their personal lives, gives them a big shoulder to cry on, and is their hero at work.

I used to work in the same place. Every day I watched The Parade - one girl after another making a point of talking to him, flirting with him, going to break or lunch or dinner with him. I did not enjoy seeing this, but what could I do? It was Just Work, as he says. They have to go to lunch and break together because they are just too busy to have their meetings during regular hours and so they have to do it this way.

And all the personal attention? According to him, this is:
1)Part of Good Management
2)Mandated by the company
3)His style, which is *much* better than the other manager's styles and has been *great* for morale in the office.

This is sickening enough, but get this: while I was there, anytime I would go up to him it was Strictly Business. Arm's Length. We Are At Work, No Touching, No Nothing! I'll kiss you goodbye at home, but I'd rather die than do it at work! This other married couple who work here were seen holding hands and it has hurt their careers!
So then he would go back to all the flirting and touching with his young singles and expect me to watch.

I finally went ballistic on this last May. We were at a wedding reception. Some company bimbo I didn't even know came up to him, draped her arms around him, and told him to be sure to call her the next time he was in her city. I was sitting a few feet away. He never introduced me, never mentioned me, and to this day insists he has no memory of any such thing happening at this reception.

I despise this company. They come down *hard* on any kind of spousal interaction but give full approval to as much flirting and playing around as anybody else can get away with. Don't kiss your wife goodbye on company property, but feel free to flirt all morning long with your mini-skirted co-worker and then put her in your car and disappear for a 1 1/2 hour lunch. That is just fine.

And hey, they've got Teambuilding <spit> too! I refer to this as Company Sponsored Pimping. You get to go to lunch, or to dinner, or on an overnight trip with your attractive co-workers, with spouses prohibited, and the company pays for it!

All these big corporations do this now. And why not? It gets their employees all juiced up and *very* happy to spend long hours working together. Families are a big drain on productivity. You can't work if you're home with them. They just eat up time and money better spent on the Company.

I have finally gone ballistic, as I said, and am now insisting that this garbage has got to stop (hence the screen name - my husband's nickname for any crazy controlling woman is "psychob***h.) I only wish I had laid down the law a long time ago, but I wanted to be supportive and helpful - didn't want to be some kind of suspicious psychob***h - and look where it's got me.

I can't be the only one is this situation - what have the rest of you experienced in Corporate Land?

Sounds ripe with DJ’s and what your husband “needs to do” for you, instead of “Corporate Land,” to use the same “logic” you are employing on Mortarman. Or is it simply that you don’t like the fact that MM is a Christian who happens to BELIEVE that obedience to God is what any Christian should be willing to do in response to the great gift that they received in Christ? Perhaps it's simply that "Mulan's Law" is superior to "God's Law?"



Mulan’s SECOND post on April 12, 2001

DazedandConfused, You are quite right to be concerned. My husband has had a long string of EAs in the workplace, though he insists that's not what they are, even though I was right there in the same building and saw it often. I do not know for sure if it was ever physical or not and will probably never know.

Our problem is that I cannot get him to agree to *exactly* what the boundaries are at work. This is like a brick wall between us and he will barely even discuss it. I tell him that *I* have very clear ideas on what is ok and what is not, but what does *he* think? What does he consider "crossing the line?"

He will stammer and shrug his shoulders and say something about, well, uh, nothing inappropriate, no sexual harassment, what do you want from me?

So I tell him that I can only conclude that there ARE no boundaries at work. Right? The only rule is, "don't get caught?"

He says nothing.

I am still working on this. Now that I am officially a Psycho B***h it's gotten easier. I am watching things much closer now and though he doesn't know it, I am liable to just happen to show up at some Teambuilding <spit> event or maybe at the airport when he's leaving or arriving (co-workers often fly together - the company doesn't send anyone alone.)

I also told him that if I ever again found out that he had gone to lunch or dinner or a break or anything else with one of his young single co-workers (he has a long history of them being his favorite kind) it was not going to be pretty.

You and your H must agree on exactly what the boundaries are at work. If he refuses to do this, you've got a problem. Been there, done that.

Mulan, enough with the attacks on Mortarman, okay? His wife is the Adulterer, and regardless of any “problems” that MM might have had that may have contributed to an atmosphere where she thought the “answer” was adultery, SHE chose adultery and is still choosing adultery. That choice, as with your husband, is 100% her choice and NOTHING MM has done justifies it or makes him responsible for her poor choice.

If anything, Mortarman “tried it your way” for the past 4 years and got no closer to his wife stopping her activities than you did with your husband. Isn’t 4 years perhaps enough time to see SOME movement on his wife’s part, or to acknowledge that his Boundary needs to be enforced?

“She has come to you as a wife and a women, but each time you have coldly turned your back on her and ordered her to get right with God first.”

What an incredibly disrespectful judgment you make toward Mortarman. You assume something you have NO knowledge of, “each time,” or “coldly turned your back on her and ordered her…”

Mulan, for whatever reason, you may not like God or Christians, but Christian or not, YOUR statement to Mortarman is uncalled for and very disrespectful of a Betrayed Spouse who has TRIED for 4 years and has been met with stubborn resistance on the part of his Wayward Spouse.
In my opinion, think what you wish of me and my relationship with Christ, but you owe Mortarman an apology for your accusations against him.

We ALL struggle with what to do and how to do it. But NONE of us would be in here or in this position if our spouse had not CHOSEN adultery as their answer to whatever they perceived to be their problems or "unfulfilled needs."

JL,

I wanted to respond to you also.


This I know. But it isnt God's will what she has been doing. Will He use it for our good/ Sure...but ONLY for those that love Him. And how do we know we love Him? Because we keep His commands. We all have freewill. So does God. We forget that sometimes.


The difference is her freewill resulted in sin. If I were to divorce her, it would not be. A big difference.


Which is sin...rebellion. Different from me deciding not to stay in the marriage and me divorcing. That would not be sin.


God's plan is ALWAYS that we remain faithful to the marriage covenant. ALWAYS!


True. But I do know the basics. If God was standing right in front of her, He would say as Jesus said to the woman at the well..."Go, and sin no more." Repent. That I KNOW He will say.


She is acting according to HER plan, not His. His plan is clearly outlined. Sure, because of her freewill and acting on her plan, God will then have His won to add to it. But His will is clear.


A wife not respecting her husband is not respecting Jesus. A wife not in Biblical submission to her husband, is not in submission to Jesus. God does not separate this.


True. But as we teach here with the Plan A mantra, when a WS is i nthe fog, the truth must be repeated often. It takes a logn while for the truth to sink in.


I am allowed, because my wife is guilty of continued adultery. She is NOT allowed to divorce because she has no such grounds.
To God, there is no such thing as a no fault divorce.


Sure He will. God has spoken thru burning bushes before. He speaks in many, many ways.


I do understand this.


I understand this. I am not trying to be her God. But my God has told me to be the pastor of my home. What the "congregation" does with my leadership, is their responsibility.


It isnt my problem in many ways. But, I am caleld to speak for God when it comes to my family. Just as my pastor is called to speak for God in my church.


I understand what you are saying. And it is this which is why I am resting. I have released her to her consequences. I will no longer try to protect her.


A wife in humble submission to the Lord will have the tools to be able to have a successful marriage. All she needs is Jesus. by following Him, she will get what He desires for her...which is ALWAYS the best thign for her.


Of course I know I am being tested. I wake up everyday and learn from this. I know that it is entirely His deal. but there are things He requires from me.


some truth here. But as I said, I havent discussed ANY of this in over a year with her. I left it all be and jsut tried to be there with her and for her. And the result? She files in January and the Troll is back around (if he ever left). It is now that thsi has happened that I have drawn the line and said "obey God or go."


Worried about ALL of us!


I do understand this. It is what I am trying to do.


As I said, the central tenet of your post here..I agree with. Which is why I am at the point I am. I have not in ther past lorded over her, or doen the "repent or die" thing. I have done to the best of my ability, tried to meet her needs and to work on our marriage. Out of love. I have met indifference and rejection.

It is NOW that am not interested in doing those thigns any further without a bending of the knee to God. No obedience to Him? Then no marriage to me.

She has had enough information, enough love, enough ENs met...to knwo what is possible. She knows the changes...has even pointed them out. But still she remained on the fence.

That fence will no longer exist shortly. She no longer gets to sit on it. She will make her decision one way or another...and she will ahve to live with it.

As Jesus has told me so many times recently..."Let the unbeliever go." It is time that He dealt with her as that unbeliever, instead of as my wife.

And it is time that I have peace.

In this, JL...we agree!!

Thanks.

In His arms.

JL, do you really mean this? Have you really thought this out from a biblical perspective?

"I would like you to reread your statement. It may be the truth, but it is wrong. "

That is your opinion and Mortarman's opinion would not agree with you. Neither opinion, by and of itself, is "correct" without a reference, something to compare that opinion to that IS recognized as the "authority." That comparison can then be used to determine if one or the other opinion is correct or incorrect.

That "authority" is the revealed will of God as contained in the Scripture. God's revelation is NOT "opinion," it is the Will of the Sovereign God.


"You have no idea what God wants of her." .

Excuse me? The Scripture is quite clear what God wants of all of us. He wants us to repent of our sins, accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and to "obey His commands because we love HIM."


"You don't know what she would realize if she laid herself down at the feet of Jesus."

JL, that's a ridiculous statement, in, of course, my humble opinion. Of course Mortarman knows "what she would realize if she laid herself down at the feet of Jesus." ANY believer who has done that KNOWS what they "realize" when they surrender their lives to Christ. They realize that they ARE a sinner in need of unmerited forgiveness by God, and subsequently by anyone else that they have sinned against. And "humble surrender" to God is the beginning of wisdom and growth and love as God has intended it. It BEGINS with love for Jesus...."If you love me, you will obey my commands." The path of Sanctification teaches us to become more "Christ-like" throughout the years as we walk with him and surrender our lives to His teaching and leading and commands.

WHERE MM's wife might be, or where any Christian may be for that matter, on their personal path of Sanctification is known only to God. But the FRUIT of a spirit that is surrendered to God WILL be seen by others and IS a gauge that they ARE surrendered to God and trying to conform their lives to more and more be like Christ.


"You are presuming to speak for God here and all you can truely do is do as God tells YOU to do."

Just Learning, this is a gross misrepresentation of Scripture. All one can on do their own is to choose to OBEY God's commands and teaching for themselves. They cannot "make" or "force" anyone else to submit their lives to God, much less to being obedient to God's commands.

BUT, there is no "presuming to speak for God" when one says to someone else that they should choose to obey God's commands. For example, God's command is; "Thou shalt not commit adultery." That is God speaking and if MM, or anyone else, were to say that to someone else, they are speaking CONSISTANT with God's will, God's command, God's teaching, and NOT "presuming to speak for God." PRESUMING to speak for God would be something like, "God thinks it's okay for you to divorce for any reason you feel like picking." THAT is in opposition to what God HAS said is TRUTH and is "presuming to place human opinion HIGHER than what God has already spoken as the truth." Telling someone who has been sinning that they need to repent and turn to God IS NOT "presuming to speak for God."

God says we must repent in order to be forgiven. That is NOT "presuming to speak for God," that is repeating what God has already said so that "God's position" and not mere human opinion is clearly understood and articulated.

To put it bluntly, not maliciously or with malice, the way God put it is the way Joshua put it:

"Choose ye THIS day whom ye shall serve, but as for me and MY house, we WILL serve the LORD."

That IS biblical. That IS the will of God. It really IS that simple for Christians who have accepted Jesus as both their Savior from their sins and their Sovereign LORD who has the RIGHT to command us and we have only the right to obey.

IF Mortarman's wife were NOT herself a "professing Christian," there would be NO POINT in saying "bend the knee," or repent to God because God would not be her Sovereign Lord. But the point is that MM's wife IS a professing Christian and the "authority" is God, plain and simple.

I find it difficult to understand why so many "knowledgeable" veterans of MB are "piling on" the Betrayed Spouse here instead of the incalcitrant Wayward Spouse, IF any "piling on" is needed at all. Either the Wayward Spouse IS "100 percent" responsible for choosing adultery, regardless of marital "atmosphere," OR the MB principles and premises themselves are NOT correct either.

Unless it's simply another case of bias against Christians and "fair game" to attack Christians and their deeply held beliefs. I would hope it's not that and that all it is is some misguided opinions.

God bless.

***My wife's problem is with Jesus, not with me.***

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

FH, I'm sorry you wasted so much time digging out and reposting my original posts, but feel free. They are just as true today as they were when I wrote them.

You seem to have missed the ones where I have said, many times, that I have chosen to remain in this situation for the sake of my son.

I have spent most of my time on MB not complaining about or asking for help with my own situation - which has only gotten worse, thanks for asking - but trying to help other posters.

Are you saying I cannot help other posters with MB principles because I could not use all of those principles myself? Have I given bad advice to anyone here (well, except MM, of course) that goes against MB principles?

Should people who cannot save their own marriages be banned from MB?

I'm never going to make you happy, FH, because I am not a Christian - at least, not your kind of Christian. I don't believe I've posted to you before and I do not plan on doing so again.

I usually skip right over your posts anyway. Feel free to skip over mine.

MM, sorry for the threadjack.
Mulan