Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 17 of 19 1 2 15 16 17 18 19
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,251
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,251

The most widely-held Biblical scholarly view is that the New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew, but in Greek (specifically, a version of Greek known as koine Greek).

The Gospel of Matthew is sometimes thought to have been written in Hebrew or Aramaic, but the majority of scholars believe that the style and other aspects of the writing favor an original in Greek.

The people who wrote the New Testament spoke Aramaic in their home lives, koine Greek in their business dealings and official writing, and Biblical (ancient) Hebrew in their religious rituals. Their ancient Hebrew texts were also translated into Aramaic and koine Greek so that they could understand them, just as present-day Jews translate their texts into English (or Russian, or Ethiopian, or whatever) to better understand them.

Another interesting bit is that the NT writings that quote the Torah and other old texts were written in koine Greek, which leads to some interesting (according to what I've read; I can't read the Greek myself, though I can muddle along in some of the Hebrew) differences in the orginal versus what's quoted in the NT.

For a whole lot more information about it, you might look at

http://www.bible-researcher.com/semasiology.html

and

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Bible/nt-languages.html

I also used Wikipedia as a reference, but the article on the NT has been kinda messed up, so I'm not sure of its accuracy at the moment. Encyclopedia Britannica also provides useful bits of information on the subject.


Sunny Day, Sweeping The Clouds Away...

Just J --
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 699
B
bjs Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 699
Quote
I keep hearing this stuff from people on here where they think I am abusive, or abandoning MB principles or I am not being a Christian husband. And I wonder why. I didnt have D-Day two weeks...it was 4 years ago. I am not a newby to MB


I think until people truly understand your walk with Christ that they won't understand what you are doing. A couple years ago I probably would have been right there with them. However going through all of this it has brought me to a more intimate and knowledgeable walk. I am understanding more of what is expected of me in my walk.

I also think people have watched your incredible battle to win your marriage back that they hurt for you and want to see you win this one. You have fought so hard for so long.

I also understand your letting her go. During the time my fwh was spending time with the ow I heard "be still do nothing." That is what I did and God did a far better job than I ever did bringing my fwh back to where he should be. He still has a way to go as do I but the changes that I have seen in him are truly incredible. I didn't give my fwh conversation about me, just about what was necessary. I did encourage him in his job but not general discussions and it was much harder on me than him, however I believe it helped him see what he was going to lose.

It was not until I totally gave my fwh to God that I have seen the changes I have seen. Keep walking in your faith MM, keep listening for HIS voice, HE will not lead you in the wrong direction ever.

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 5,906
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 5,906

I keep hearing this stuff from people on here where they think I am abusive, or abandoning MB principles or I am not being a Christian husband. And I wonder why. I didnt have D-Day two weeks...it was 4 years ago. I am not a newby to MB



So it comes back to...what is this all about? I know all of this stuff. I know what to do. Why am I getting all of this stuff, which clearly isnt what has happened or is happening?

that dang human nature...

well it's because ONE...

people here care about you....
so they will offer their thoughts on how to fix or change something.....

you will probably illicit quite a lot of responses of people wanting to help...

for you yourself have and do help so many ....

and since your wife doesn't post here....some will be about what you can should might must do.....all offered out of concern for you....

two my friend is that your wife's poor poor choices probably scare some round here....

you have walked through your whole trial with great grace...

been hugely strong in the realm of what is right for the children even when it causes greater trauma between you and your wife...a very very difficult concept for newer BS to grasp....

and people are scared that if "you" can't fix it...well heck...that's just scary...

and gosh darn it ...

people round here like you......

I'll say mortarman that I know you seek true counsel in your heart...
I know that you will not be yoked to someone unworthy of Gods light in them and in you....

and though sad that there is once again hurt...
you will be OK...

and knowing that about you...here's my BUT...

which negates nothing that has been said before...

BUT what really makes me upset about this post...is the once again forgetting that even when people's advice is "wrong" or off the mark...it is still valuable and does not warrant hurtful rebuttal...

some of the criticism is hurtful and very personal and judgemental on a totally flat subjective way...

makes me very uncomfortable....


I think people know what you are doing right..(not that I speak for them...but I'm not surprised you have illicited such a gambit of ideas, responses and opinions...all in the name of trying to help )it's just that sometimes the right thing is a very very scary act to all of us..

the act of telling the teenager that is using in the home to go...knowing they have no where to go...easy to say in principle...like no other ****** on earth in reality...

this isn't much different...

Godspeed on this part of the journey...

ARK^^

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 810
Grace,

Quote
You are always SO KIND in replying to everyone's messages.

This is why you can BELIEVE MM when he tells us that he has treated his wife this way, to the greatest extent humanly possible, throughout this entire ordeal. This is a man who, I have absolutely no doubt, not only talks-the-talk, but walks-the-walk.


MM,
My last post on this thread, several pages ago, is still my message to you -- That I hope you and Mrs. MM both find some peace soon. Time to start taking care of yourself, MM. Time to let go. I just wish you could do it without so much judgement... without expecing (even hoping?) that the wrath of God is about to be unleashed on Mrs. MM.

All my best,
--SC


"I require more from my spouse than behaving well in order to avoid pain." (guess who)
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,401
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,401
Quote
I just wish you could do it without so much judgement... without expecing (even hoping?) that the wrath of God is about to be unleashed on Mrs. MM.

SC, most of us try to leg go or our WS, however trully letting go is EXTREMELY difficult and would involve letting go of all the anger and resentment as well. It's a tough pill to swallow though in the end it's medicating.

MM, I truly wish you only the best!


Married 10 years, Legally Seperated Aug 2,2006
1 year of Plan A followed by 1 year of Plan B...
...now stepping towards recovery?????
BH 37(me), WW 35, DB 7 & DD 5
My Story
My struggle with an EA
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 35
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 35
Quote
SLA,

No, I do not have much compassion for her right now. I readily admit that. I did during the last 4 years. I dont know.

Look, if you and I were hammering a board and you accidentally hit your thumb with the hammer, I would have compassion for you. If you hit it again, I would have compassion for you.

But, if you stood right there and intentionally, repeatedly hit your thumb and then wanted me to have compassion for you...I am sorry. I cant do that. Continued self-inflicted wounds by someone who knows better really doesnt need much compassion. They needs help.

In His arms.


Ah!

Yes, I so totally understand. Compassion is so very hard to give when it is not deserved. But isn't that what Christ did for us? Does for us even now?

Please, please understand that I think you have done an expemplary job in MB. I have no issues with not contesting the divorce, I believe that you are following the path you need to. I truly, truly believe you are doing the very best you can with what you have been handed.

I keep talking to you because I struggle with compassion, and I see some of myself in your stance. God does not call us to be compassionate to only those who will never mess up again. He does not call us to be compassionate to only those who will respond. I don't believe that every publican, prostitute or outcast that Jesus went out of his way to associate with accepted Him as the savior of the world. But it never, ever stopped him from having compassion on them.

I feel rather helpless at the moment. I do not believe compassion means letting anyone do whatever they want. In fact, that is the complete opposite of compassion. It is not about being a doormat.

It's about being whole, leaving things up to God without rancor or spite, with kindness. It's about being a healthier you. Your wife is going to divorce you. You're going to go through (well, have been going through) a temendously difficult time period. How in the world can compassion hurt you? It can only heal you.

And that comes from someone who is fighting compassion tooth and nail. I thank you for the opportunity to discuss this with you and to sort out my thoughts better.

Thank you,
SLA

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
Quote
The most widely-held Biblical scholarly view is that the New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew, but in Greek (specifically, a version of Greek known as koine Greek).

If I stated that the passage in Matthew was in Hebrew, it was a typo. The OT was written in Hebrew...the new was written in Greek, as you stated.

Quote
The Gospel of Matthew is sometimes thought to have been written in Hebrew or Aramaic, but the majority of scholars believe that the style and other aspects of the writing favor an original in Greek.

The people who wrote the New Testament spoke Aramaic in their home lives, koine Greek in their business dealings and official writing, and Biblical (ancient) Hebrew in their religious rituals. Their ancient Hebrew texts were also translated into Aramaic and koine Greek so that they could understand them, just as present-day Jews translate their texts into English (or Russian, or Ethiopian, or whatever) to better understand them.

Another interesting bit is that the NT writings that quote the Torah and other old texts were written in koine Greek, which leads to some interesting (according to what I've read; I can't read the Greek myself, though I can muddle along in some of the Hebrew) differences in the orginal versus what's quoted in the NT.

For a whole lot more information about it, you might look at

http://www.bible-researcher.com/semasiology.html

and

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Bible/nt-languages.html

I also used Wikipedia as a reference, but the article on the NT has been kinda messed up, so I'm not sure of its accuracy at the moment. Encyclopedia Britannica also provides useful bits of information on the subject.


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
Quote
Quote
I keep hearing this stuff from people on here where they think I am abusive, or abandoning MB principles or I am not being a Christian husband. And I wonder why. I didnt have D-Day two weeks...it was 4 years ago. I am not a newby to MB


I think until people truly understand your walk with Christ that they won't understand what you are doing. A couple years ago I probably would have been right there with them. However going through all of this it has brought me to a more intimate and knowledgeable walk. I am understanding more of what is expected of me in my walk.

I also think people have watched your incredible battle to win your marriage back that they hurt for you and want to see you win this one. You have fought so hard for so long.

I also understand your letting her go. During the time my fwh was spending time with the ow I heard "be still do nothing." That is what I did and God did a far better job than I ever did bringing my fwh back to where he should be. He still has a way to go as do I but the changes that I have seen in him are truly incredible. I didn't give my fwh conversation about me, just about what was necessary. I did encourage him in his job but not general discussions and it was much harder on me than him, however I believe it helped him see what he was going to lose.

It was not until I totally gave my fwh to God that I have seen the changes I have seen. Keep walking in your faith MM, keep listening for HIS voice, HE will not lead you in the wrong direction ever.

Thanks you!

In His arms.


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
Quote
I keep hearing this stuff from people on here where they think I am abusive, or abandoning MB principles or I am not being a Christian husband. And I wonder why. I didnt have D-Day two weeks...it was 4 years ago. I am not a newby to MB



So it comes back to...what is this all about? I know all of this stuff. I know what to do. Why am I getting all of this stuff, which clearly isnt what has happened or is happening?

that dang human nature...

well it's because ONE...

people here care about you....
so they will offer their thoughts on how to fix or change something.....

you will probably illicit quite a lot of responses of people wanting to help...

for you yourself have and do help so many ....

and since your wife doesn't post here....some will be about what you can should might must do.....all offered out of concern for you....

two my friend is that your wife's poor poor choices probably scare some round here....

you have walked through your whole trial with great grace...

been hugely strong in the realm of what is right for the children even when it causes greater trauma between you and your wife...a very very difficult concept for newer BS to grasp....

and people are scared that if "you" can't fix it...well heck...that's just scary...

and gosh darn it ...

people round here like you......

I'll say mortarman that I know you seek true counsel in your heart...
I know that you will not be yoked to someone unworthy of Gods light in them and in you....

and though sad that there is once again hurt...
you will be OK...

and knowing that about you...here's my BUT...

which negates nothing that has been said before...

BUT what really makes me upset about this post...is the once again forgetting that even when people's advice is "wrong" or off the mark...it is still valuable and does not warrant hurtful rebuttal...

some of the criticism is hurtful and very personal and judgemental on a totally flat subjective way...

makes me very uncomfortable....


I think people know what you are doing right..(not that I speak for them...but I'm not surprised you have illicited such a gambit of ideas, responses and opinions...all in the name of trying to help )it's just that sometimes the right thing is a very very scary act to all of us..

the act of telling the teenager that is using in the home to go...knowing they have no where to go...easy to say in principle...like no other ****** on earth in reality...

this isn't much different...

Godspeed on this part of the journey...

ARK^^

Thank you Ark. And I do know that everyone here cares. And I greatly appreciate ALL of the posts. Even the ones that arent quite on with the reality of the situation here have caused me to have to take pause and take inventory. So, it is a good thing. My question was it seemed that a lot of posts were coming out all at once saying that I might be abusive, or challenging me that I havent done what has been expected in MB principels and Biblical principles. It was that which I was questioning. I didnt understand that, because anyone that knows me knows that I tout MB aand believe that it is the BEST shot at recovering a marriage. And I do walk the walk (at least most of the time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

Anyway. Thanks for the post. And I'd like to thank everyone for their posts, as everyone of them have been helpful in their own way.

In His arms.


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
Quote
Grace,

Quote
You are always SO KIND in replying to everyone's messages.

This is why you can BELIEVE MM when he tells us that he has treated his wife this way, to the greatest extent humanly possible, throughout this entire ordeal. This is a man who, I have absolutely no doubt, not only talks-the-talk, but walks-the-walk.


MM,
My last post on this thread, several pages ago, is still my message to you -- That I hope you and Mrs. MM both find some peace soon. Time to start taking care of yourself, MM. Time to let go. I just wish you could do it without so much judgement... without expecing (even hoping?) that the wrath of God is about to be unleashed on Mrs. MM.

All my best,
--SC

Thanks SC. While I definitely try to twalk the walk, I wont say for a minute that I have done it perfectly. I have had my moments...even over the last week...which werent what I should have done.

My venting here is just that. It is getting all of this out in the open so I can work thru this. Yes, right now...I believe that it is going to take a stiff beating by the Lord on my wife's backside before she will listen.

My pastor says that we should always pray for "whatever it takes." That is my prayer now for her. That the Lord will do "whatever" it takes to get thru to her.

Again, thanks SC.

In His arms.


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
Quote
Quote
I just wish you could do it without so much judgement... without expecing (even hoping?) that the wrath of God is about to be unleashed on Mrs. MM.

SC, most of us try to leg go or our WS, however trully letting go is EXTREMELY difficult and would involve letting go of all the anger and resentment as well. It's a tough pill to swallow though in the end it's medicating.

MM, I truly wish you only the best!

HTW..thanks.

In His arms.


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
Quote
Quote
SLA,

No, I do not have much compassion for her right now. I readily admit that. I did during the last 4 years. I dont know.

Look, if you and I were hammering a board and you accidentally hit your thumb with the hammer, I would have compassion for you. If you hit it again, I would have compassion for you.

But, if you stood right there and intentionally, repeatedly hit your thumb and then wanted me to have compassion for you...I am sorry. I cant do that. Continued self-inflicted wounds by someone who knows better really doesnt need much compassion. They needs help.

In His arms.


Ah!

Yes, I so totally understand. Compassion is so very hard to give when it is not deserved. But isn't that what Christ did for us? Does for us even now?

Yes, He does. And He does so, i nthe example I gave, by tellign us to "go and sin no more." He doesnt give us a big hug and say its okay...because it isnt okay. He doesnt white wash sin. He says "so you have been intentionally hammering your thumb and it hurts. My suggestion to you is to stop." This is that simple. Notice I didnt say EASY...I said SIMPLE.

Quote
Please, please understand that I think you have done an expemplary job in MB. I have no issues with not contesting the divorce, I believe that you are following the path you need to. I truly, truly believe you are doing the very best you can with what you have been handed.

I keep talking to you because I struggle with compassion, and I see some of myself in your stance. God does not call us to be compassionate to only those who will never mess up again. He does not call us to be compassionate to only those who will respond. I don't believe that every publican, prostitute or outcast that Jesus went out of his way to associate with accepted Him as the savior of the world. But it never, ever stopped him from having compassion on them.

Not sure what you are using as the word "compassion." As I said, he told the woman at the well to go and sin no more. Was that compassionate? I think so. I think if you are intentionally hurting yourself and others, I thin kthe compassionate thing to do is to tell you to stop...or to continue to let you hurt yourself even worse until you get it thru your thick skull.

My son one time wouldnt listen to me when I told him not to stand up on chairs. He was 5, and he was defiant. I could have made him get off the chair, but instead...I just kept telling him that he wasnt going to like the outcome if he didnt get down. Well, one day, he got up on the chair, it tipped and he fell over and busted his lip open. Now, did I run over and hug him and say "oh, I'm so sorry you got hurt?" No. I came over, made sure he was okay...and then told him "guess you arent going to do that again, huh?" Go and sin no more.

I guess some would say I wasnt "compassionate" to my son. And maybe I wasnt. But, as I said, I dont have much tolerance for self-inflicted pain. If it hurts...stop it. If you cant stop it, get help to stop it.

Again, the difference between simple and easy. it is very simple to stop. It may not be easy.

Quote
I feel rather helpless at the moment. I do not believe compassion means letting anyone do whatever they want. In fact, that is the complete opposite of compassion. It is not about being a doormat.

It's about being whole, leaving things up to God without rancor or spite, with kindness. It's about being a healthier you. Your wife is going to divorce you. You're going to go through (well, have been going through) a temendously difficult time period. How in the world can compassion hurt you? It can only heal you.

And that comes from someone who is fighting compassion tooth and nail. I thank you for the opportunity to discuss this with you and to sort out my thoughts better.

Thank you,
SLA

I agree that the bitterness and anger must go. The threads lately have been all about that. And I am working on that. I have no doubt Jesus wants me to release that. So, I will. Can I right now? No. But He and I are working on it.

I'll be perfect after I die. Until then, I contineu the journey.

Good points SLA.

In His arms.


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310

My dear MM:

You can understand what it must be like. I was thinking you were guilty of that old adage..DO AS I SAY NOT WHAT I DO... Wiping my brow, WHEW..I was glad to hear you say this...

Quote
As soon as she takes off (and I have no doubt she will soon), I will be in full out Plan B. Dark as dark can get. I would start today, but we are living in the same house and even sleeping in the same bed, so that is not possible. Yet.


I was glad to hear you say this...after you pushed and pushed and pushed me to GO INTO PLAN B and pushed and pushed and pushed me to STAY IN PLAN B. I credit you, MY PLAN B CZAR for keeping me on track... Whenever, I needed motivation and inspiration on this very forum, you were right here. You didn't miss a beat. I will forever and ever be grateful to you. I'm praying that we get to meet face to face..one fine day...if who we are matters at all...in HEAVEN...

I hear loud and clear what you are saying, MM...

Take your rest. Seek your peace. As you well know, Trust in Him.

My favorite verse that brought me through many days and many sleepless nights...

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not on thine own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths." (Proverbs)

Last edited by mimi1254; 05/05/06 09:08 AM.

I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
Quote
My dear MM:

You can understand what it must be like. I was thinking you were guilty of that old adage..DO AS I SAY NOT WHAT I DO... Wiping my brow, WHEW..I was glad to hear you say this...

Quote
As soon as she takes off (and I have no doubt she will soon), I will be in full out Plan B. Dark as dark can get. I would start today, but we are living in the same house and even sleeping in the same bed, so that is not possible. Yet.


I was glad to hear you say this...after you pushed and pushed and pushed me to GO INTO PLAN B and pushed and pushed and pushed me to STAY IN PLAN B. I credit you, MY PLAN B CZAR for keeping me on track... Whenever, I needed motivation and inspiration on this very forum, you were right here. You didn't miss a beat. I will forever and ever be grateful to you. I'm praying that we get to meet face to face..one fine day...if who we are matters at all...in HEAVEN...

I hear loud and clear what you are saying, MM...

Take your rest. Seek your peace. As you well know, Trust in Him.

My favorite verse that brought me through many days and many sleepless nights...

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not on thine own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths." (Proverbs)

Thanks Mimi. And it may be you (and others) that will have to keep check on my "darkness." Making sure NC stays.

In His arms.


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,251
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,251
I won't presume to speak for SLA, nor do I know how a Christian would define compassion. My own working definition of compassion comes from two places. The first is Ethics for the New Millenium, which was written by the Dalai Lama. It is an excellent evaluation of human compassion and ethics in my experience, and from what I've heard from colleagues who've read it (they come from five or six different faith traditions, including Christianity).

The second is Steven Stosny's Compassion Power work. If I recall correctly, Stosny is a Christian.

In this case, I'll draw more from the Stosny than from the first source, because Stosny talks more about compassion in circumstances where there is harm and that's more relevant.

In a case where harm is being done, compassion does not stand aside and allow that harm to continue. Compassion does what it can to prevent the harm -- while not causing further harm. In the example of the person banging on their thumb, MM's response would be compassionate, in my view, though it's not the only compassionate response. Asking the person to stop, getting them help in stopping, finding out why the harm continues even though it's obvious to him that it's causing harm -- all those are compassionate acts that may lead to healing and a better outcome for everyone.

An addict, someone who is having an affair, or someone who is abusive, keeps hitting his or her "thumb" even though it causes tremendous harm. So does a teenage girl who has, through some trauma or other, become a "cutter." Harm is a very peculiar thing sometimes, I must say.

In the case of the son who decided not to listen about the chairs, well, I must admit to having done exactly the same thing with my own DD when she was about 2 years old. In that case, given the age, I did my darndest to make sure that the physical harm to her was limited to a surprised bump rather than a split lip. Afterward, she got her tears comforted and a hug -- and an explanation, with demonstration with a dolly -- of what happens when you lean on the edge of the bowl chair that way. All in all, very similar. The only real difference I see is that MM probably put some blame on his son for being defiant. I viewed it as an opportunity for my DD to do some necessary learn something about physics and the mechanics of furniture. It's easier to do that with a really small child, I think, because you know for a fact that they probably -didn't- know what was going to happen ahead of time.

In my view, compassion makes sure that ongoing harm ends because it causes harm to the victim, and also because it causes harm to the person doing the harm. Harm to that person's integrity or wholeness; some might say harm to the person's soul.


On another subject, MM, could you provide a couple of references to your interpretation of the passage from Matthew? I don't know where to look to review things like that. Thanks!


Sunny Day, Sweeping The Clouds Away...

Just J --
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
Quote
I won't presume to speak for SLA, nor do I know how a Christian would define compassion. My own working definition of compassion comes from two places. The first is Ethics for the New Millenium, which was written by the Dalai Lama. It is an excellent evaluation of human compassion and ethics in my experience, and from what I've heard from colleagues who've read it (they come from five or six different faith traditions, including Christianity).

The second is Steven Stosny's Compassion Power work. If I recall correctly, Stosny is a Christian.

In this case, I'll draw more from the Stosny than from the first source, because Stosny talks more about compassion in circumstances where there is harm and that's more relevant.

In a case where harm is being done, compassion does not stand aside and allow that harm to continue. Compassion does what it can to prevent the harm -- while not causing further harm. In the example of the person banging on their thumb, MM's response would be compassionate, in my view, though it's not the only compassionate response. Asking the person to stop, getting them help in stopping, finding out why the harm continues even though it's obvious to him that it's causing harm -- all those are compassionate acts that may lead to healing and a better outcome for everyone.

An addict, some who is having an affair, or someone who is abusive, keeps hitting his or her "thumb" even though it causes tremendous harm. So does a teenage girl who has, through some trauma or other, become a "cutter." Harm is a very peculiar thing sometimes, I must say.

In the case of the son who decided not to listen about the chairs, well, I must admit to having done exactly the same thing with my own DD when she was about 2 years old. In that case, given the age, I did my darndest to make sure that the physical harm to her was limited to a surprised bump rather than a split lip. Afterward, she got her tears comforted and a hug -- and an explanation, with demonstration with a dolly -- of what happens when you lean on the edge of the bowl chair that way. All in all, very similar. The only real difference I see is that MM probably put some blame on his son for being defiant. I viewed it as an opportunity for my DD to do some necessary learn something about physics and the mechanics of furniture. It's easier to do that with a really small child, I think, because you know for a fact that they probably -didn't- know what was going to happen ahead of time.

In my view, compassion makes sure that ongoing harm ends because it causes harm to the victim, and also because it causes harm to the person doing the harm. Harm to that person's integrity or wholeness; some might say harm to the person's soul.


On another subject, MM, could you provide a couple of references to your interpretation of the passage from Matthew? I don't know where to look to review things like that. Thanks!

JustJ,

Good post. In the case of my 5 year old son, he was a little old for me to have to explain gravity and all. He understood that, unlike maybe a two year old. In this case, he was being defiant. And while I wasnt going to let him permanently hurt himself, the fact that his actions which he knew were wrong and could result in pain, actually stopped him from ever doing that again.

Let me give you another...personal...example. When I was 8 years old, I was caught stealing candy from a local store. I was caught by my parents that night, as I tried to eat the candy...and they wondered where I got it. Now, I had been having a problem with stealing. If I saw something, I took it.

Will this time, my dad tried something different. He first took me back to the store and made me pay for the candy and apologize. As we walked out the door, I saw a police cruiser. My uncle was a local cop and my dad had called him. My uncle had one of his fellow officers come over and he put me i nthe back of the vehicle and drove me to the station. Little did I know but my dad was driving right behind us.

When I got there, I couldnt see my dad. The officer took me inside, finger printed me, and placed me i nthis one person holding cell. I thought I was in there for hours (my dad said it was 15 minutes...he was in the next room). Then he and the officer came in, they let me out and they talked to me about stealing.

I cried during all of this. I still, at age 42, remember every bit of that ordeal. And you knwo what? I have a severe aversion to stealing anything. I just cant do it. One day a few months ago, I had driven away fro mMcDonalds and got 20 miles down the road and realized that the cashier had given me $5 extra in change. No way I could keep it! I turned around and went back the 20 miles, wasting $5 in gas to go return that $5.

Now, was what my dad not compassionate to me? Was he cruel or abusive? Some would say yes. I say that this little boy never grew up to be a thief. And that is a good thing! This particular lesson was learned thru a little emotional pain. Far better than learnign it later on, as I serve 5-8 in the state pen.

So, I am all for helping those that need help. And I am all for those that want to continue doing wrong...for them to reap the consequences. But I want them to reap it and come to their senses. To be restored...not destroyed!

JustJ, I will go find the links you need to that and get back with you soon on that.

In His arms.


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,251
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,251
*chuckle* Personally, MM, it sounds like your dad was indeed compassionate with you -- because he knew that to continue on that path was harmful to you.

I agree -- the natural consequences of one's actions are an excellent place to learn, and I believe that the earlier some lessons are learned, the better. Facilitating that for one's children is one of the many things that it takes to be a good parent.

Quote
I want them to reap it and come to their senses. To be restored...not destroyed!

Good way to put it. For every person, at every age, in every moment of their lives, there is the opportunity for this to happen. Some take much (MUCH) longer than others. And in some cases, protecting ourselves from the harm they do is the best way to protect -them-, as well.

I look forward to the references!


Sunny Day, Sweeping The Clouds Away...

Just J --
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
While I get the links...I thought I would throw this excerpt out there. It takes an interesting tact on Biblical divorce. Thought I would put it out for discussion.

Quote
When I counsel young couples, I ask them, "What is marriage?" They may give me many romantic ideas about marriage, but they often miss the foundation.

Marriage is a commitment. It is an allegiance bonding two into one flesh. Marriage does not depend on whether you have good times or bad times together. You are still married. Through sickness or health, the commitment remains. No matter what happens through the years, you are married until death do you part.

It is the same with us as we become the Bride of Christ. It is immaterial what our walk is with Christ. We are walking with Christ through good times and bad. Apostle Paul asks, "What will separate us from the love of Christ?" (Romans 8:35) He concludes that nothing will separate us. Our walk with Christ is for all eternity.

State promotes adultery
In the early 70's, lawyers were drinking and partying because of a new law that was going to greatly increase their business. My wife, Rachel, came home from the law offices where she worked and said the new law would make it possible for residents of Oregon to receive a divorce much easier. Under the new provisions, a divorce could be granted simply because the couple was having "irreconcilable differences."

Prior to the passage of this law, it was time-consuming and expensive to obtain a divorce. The state recognized a Godly form of marriage. Once united, the couple was bound "until death do us part." A divorce was granted only for a few specific reasons, usually because of marital unfaithfulness. And this charge had to be proved.

Why were the lawyers jumping up and down about the new divorce law? They knew that having easy divorce meant more people divorcing and more revenue for lawyers. Now, 20 years later we are seeing the fruit of this law upon this adulterous generation.

Staged Polygamy
The problem we are dealing with, is that the state does not acknowledge true marriage. The state has made an abomination of marriage. The state is promoting polygamy. Not bigamy, but polygamy. Polygamy means having two or more wives or husbands at the same time.

The state has made a revenue base out of man's desire to have multiple marriages. They say, "You can have polygamy, but you must stage out your wives. For a small fee we will give you a marriage license and for a greater fee we will grant you a divorce," which is no divorce at all.

Once you obtain the paper saying you are divorced, you can legally sleep with another woman and have children by that woman. However, you are still obligated to continue financing the previous wife and children. When you finish with that wife, you pay the state more fees and obtain a second divorce. Then you remarry with another small fee and when you tire of her, you pay the state the larger fee to set you free to marry a third time. This continues on, and all the while the state makes volumes of revenue off of your polygamy.

As a Christian, I do not recognize this form of multiple marriages. I cannot find anything in the Holy Scriptures that describes what the state promotes. Unfortunately, what the state is doing is allowing people to believe that they are able to "undo" a marriage and then unite with another partner. But the state has problems because they are still subject to God. The state recognizes that you cannot just walk away from a marriage. You still have responsibilities to your wife and children. If you are a divorced male, you become entangled in child support payments, visitation rights and a host of other problems. You try to start a new life with a new spouse, but the old marriage does not die. Life becomes nothing but a nightmare for all those involved. And the children suffer greatly.

Not only does the state promote these ungodly relationships, but the corporate churches condone them. The state has a harlot known as the churches and they are riding upon the state. The preachers of these churches are aligned with the state in promoting polygamy. They are binding people together in the name of the state, instead of the Lord Jesus Christ. They marry people under the authority of a state marriage license. The harlot Church cannot preach the word of God on marriage because they are beholden to the state. They don't want to lose their tax exempt status and other benefits. Therefore, they go along with the state's ideas on marriage and divorce.

What I have described is happening all over America. It is Sodom and Gomorrah, a "wicked and adulterous generation." The men are like well-fed lusty stallions; every one neighing after his neighbor's wife (Jeremiah 5:8).

An adulterous generation is attacking the very heart of the forest. The trees in this forest are now diseased. The trees no longer have loyalty to another human being. If you have no loyalty to your original marriage or to your spouse or your offspring, then neither will you have loyalty to Jesus Christ or God the Father. Because of "irreconcilable differences," you part company and do whatever you want.

I have an old saying, "Whatever you see in a microscope, is also true in a telescope." If you can look into a microscope and see an atom with all its electrons moving around, it looks just like the solar system with the planets traveling around the sun. It is just on a different scale.

We are talking about the same thing in our family relations and in our relationship with God. On the small scale of a microscope, we see a family being destroyed because the husband and wife have no more loyalty to each other. We see a couple who are one flesh being ripped and torn apart.

On the large scale of the telescope, we see men and women being ripped and torn apart from God Almighty. Once they were bonded to God, but then "irreconcilable differences," arose and they divorced God and married other gods. Now they are committing idolatry. Idolatry in the large realm of God is the same as adultery in the small realm of family. In the microscope we see the destruction of the family, in the telescope we see the destruction of society.

Are there exceptions to marriage law?
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his WIFE, EXCEPT IT BE FOR FORNICATION, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. Matthew 19:9


Doesn't Matthew 19:9 allow a man to divorce his wife if she commits adultery?

No. The New Testament gives no grounds for divorce. When Jesus made an exception to the marriage law at Matthew 5:32 and 19:9, it was for a betrothed wife, not a real wife.

Betrothed wife
To understand why the word WIFE is used at Matthew 5:32 and 19:9, we need to know a little about Jewish customs because Matthew was writing to a Jewish audience. Jews had a social practice called "BETROTHAL," which is similar to engagement today. Betrothal starts when a couple agrees to give themselves to each other in marriage and ends in the actual marriage. Jewish betrothal is different from modern-day engagement in one significant way. Once a couple was betrothed, they were regarded by the rest of society as "one flesh" and were called husband and wife. Usually within a year to eighteen months after becoming betrothed, the couple consummated the marriage.

In modern society during the period of engagement, if the couple change their minds, they break up and start over again. In Jewish society, however, once a couple is betrothed, they could not just call it quits. A betrothed couple in Jewish society had to obtain a LEGAL DIVORCE. Even though they were only engaged and had never lived together as man and wife, they were considered married and must get a divorce if they wanted to separate. This custom can be proved from the scriptures.

Mary is called "wife"
Look at Matthew 1:18-20 and 24-25. Here is a passage most of us have read many times and possibly missed a powerful truth that reveals this Jewish custom. Notice that Joseph and Mary are called HUSBAND and WIFE, even though they were only betrothed or engaged:

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise; When as his mother Mary was ESPOUSED (engaged) to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph HER HUSBAND, (espoused, but called husband) being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. (literally, divorce her)


Notice that even though they had not yet consummated the marriage, Joseph was considering divorcing Mary.

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee MARY, THY WIFE: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."

Then Joseph being raised from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him and took unto him HIS WIFE: and KNEW HER NOT till she had brought forth her firstborn son; and she called his name Jesus.


Jesus, being raised in Jewish society, was aware of this Jewish custom of being considered husband and wife during the betrothal period. Matthew records this special provision, not as a universal exception, but only as a clarification to the Jews concerning the betrothal relationship. The exception is for a betrothed couple when FORNICATION is committed BEFORE their marriage vows make them one flesh for life. The principle of the permanency of marriage that Jesus teaches applies only to those who have consummated their marriage, not to those who are merely betrothed.

No exception in parallel passages
With this understanding of Jewish custom, Matthew 5:32 and 19:9 concur with the other parallel passages of Luke 16:18 and Mark 10:11. If we take out the "EXCEPT IT BE FOR FORNICATION" clause, then Matthew 19:9 is almost identical to Luke 16:18:

Whosoever shall put away his wife and shall marry another, committeth adultery; and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. (Matthew 19:9 with fornication clause removed).

Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. Luke 16:18


Matthew 19:9 appears to make an exception to the marriage covenant that is not made in the parallel passages at Mark 10:11 and Luke 16:18. But when the passage is viewed without the exception clause, it harmonizes with the rest of the New Testament teachings on marriage.

Fornication vs adultery
Another reason we know the exception clause is referring to a BETROTHED WIFE and not a real wife, is that Jesus makes the exception for FORNICATION, not for adultery. FORNICATION is illicit sex between an UNMARRIED couple. If Jesus was referring to a real wife, why didn't He say "except it be for adultery"?

The word translated "fornication" is "porneia" in Greek. "Porneia" generally means illicit sexual relations between an UNMARRIED couple. If a real wife were unfaithful, she would commit adultery, not fornication.

The modern translations sometimes confuse the issue because they translate the Greek word PORNEIA not as fornication, but as the general term "sexual immorality." However, none of the modern translations we have seen translate PORNEIA as adultery.

If Jesus meant to say adultery is grounds for divorce, why wasn't a derivative of the Greek word "Moichao" used? That is the word translated as adultery in the same verse. "Moichao" (adultery) occurs when a married person violates wedlock.

Let us assume that fornication means adultery in Matthew 5:32 and 19:9. Then we could assume that if a spouse commits adultery, it is grounds for divorce and subsequently, remarriage. But how can this be? It flies in the face of what Jesus and Apostle Paul speak about so clearly elsewhere in the New Testament. Earlier in Matthew, Chapter 19, verse 6, Jesus says that a man and woman are joined as one flesh and no man can divide them. To seek a divorce, is to allow a man to separate what God has put together. Both Jesus and Apostle Paul teach that those who divorce and marry another commit adultery. Once the marriage has been consummated, there are no escape clauses. Marriage is until death do you part.

Only death ends marriage
Paul confirms Jesus' teaching of being one flesh for life by saying in effect:

If you separate, stay single or reunite with your only spouse, for if you do remarry before your partner dies, you are an adulterer or an adulteress; and adulterers SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. (See 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 7:11)

When one becomes a eunuch, he cannot go back to his former state. When one marries, they cannot go back to the unmarried state. Marriage is permanent. No wonder Christ's disciples said to Him, "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry" (Matthew 19:10).

Does Jesus allow a man to divorce his wife because of adultery? No, the scripture remains true, the only way out of marriage is death.

For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Romans 7:2-3


The blood covenant
Marriage is founded upon the commitment of a man and a woman giving their lives and their fortunes to each other, binding them into one whole. The woman comes under the covering of the man. The man has an obligation to that woman, "till death do they part," to be her covering. He is to take care of her and to have children by her, through good times and bad times, through health and in sickness. He is not going to be able to have just the good times. He is also going to have to go through the bad times. Marriage does not hinge upon whether it is an exciting time or an unexciting time. Marriage remains a lifetime commitment that is not dependent upon circumstances.

Marriage is a covenant between two people. Some say it is a "blood covenant." The woman, a virgin, spills her blood on their wedding night. Blood binds the covenant. This is not always true because there are situations where a spouse dies, and the other is free to remarry. In that instance, if the widow remarries, there is no blood spilt, but there is still a covenant, "until death do us part."

No sin in first marriage
What about all of the families who followed the state and thought they could divorce and remarry? People come up to me and say, "I wasn't a Christian back in the days of my first marriage. Now I'm on my second marriage. Is my first marriage forgiven so that I can remain with my second wife?"

I ask one question. What is there to forgive on your first marriage? Is it not your lawful marriage? There is nothing to forgive. What are you asking for? You are asking to remain in adultery. I find everybody looking for justification to remain in adultery. If you have a problem, why not seek out the way you can undo your adultery? The first step is to leave the adulterous relationship. If there are children involved, you are still responsible for them, but cut out the adultery. Walk away from it. You cannot remain there.

That is step number one. That is repentance. To repent of an adulterous relationship, is to quit committing adultery. It is like everything else. If you are angry, how do you repent of anger? You quit being angry. To have a repentant attitude, is to quit doing it. If you find you are an alcoholic, what is repentance? Quit drinking. Stop going to the persons, places and things that cause you to drink. The same thing is true with an adulterous relationship. If you are in adultery, how do you repent? You must leave the relationship. That is step number one.

What if you want to be married? Then go back to your original wife or husband.

"But they have already remarried," you say.

Who married them? God does not recognize their marriage. They are in an adulterous relationship. It is an adulterous generation. Everybody is in adultery and it seems nobody is sleeping with their God-ordained partner.

The problem is that the state, who has been promoting polygamy in a structured manner, is also going to prevent you from going back to your spouse. What you are fighting is not God. You are fighting the state. And the state is fighting God.

In His arms.


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,712
Here is something more in line to what I was thinking. I put the sermon by Dr. Evans below. JustJ, the issue I was speakign of when I was talking about the grounds for divorce was that of porneia. I have somewhere else the literal interpretation, which basically CONTINUED unfaithfulness. I am still tryign to find that refeence.

Anyway, here is what Dr. Evans outlined, and I believe is Biblically correct.

Quote
Divorce and Remarriage

The problem of divorce is a massive one. According to some statistics compiled over the last 50 years, the number of divorces has increased by 700%. In many parts of the country, 50% of all marriages end in divorce. Additionally, by the year 2000, half of all American children will not have been raised in a traditional two-parent home. In the minority community, we've already passed those milestones.

All of this has been worsened by legislation allowing no- fault divorce. Even though divorce is always somebody's fault, in a no-fault divorce, the court doesn't concern itself with placing blame. So, a husband and wife divide their property and their children, pay their lawyers a nominal fee, file the papers and that's that. Divorce granted. Another till-death-do-us- part commitment bites the dust.

In a society that has so cheapened the value of marriage, I think it is vital that we re-examine this institution from a biblical perspective. Let's begin at the beginning.


Why Did God Create Marriage?
I can identify three reasons--and only one of them has anything to do with making us happy.

The first reason for marriage is procreation. You may ask, What's the big deal about having babies? Isn't the world crowded enough? The point is not to fuel a population ex- plosion, but to disperse the influence and authority of God. Re- member what God told Adam and Eve in Genesis 1:28: Be fruitful and multiply so that you will have dominion over the earth. Dominion literally means a territory under one government. As God's people multiply and scatter, God's influence and authority follow. My goal is to raise my children in such a way that whether they wind up living in Baltimore, New York or Los Angeles, God relocates with them. The Lord's instruction to Adam and Even was to populate the world with children who, because of their commitment and dedication, would express God's character and expand His kingdom.

The second purpose of marriage is to provide a divine illustration. The relationship between a husband and wife is meant to serve as a working model of the link between Christ and the Church. That's why the bride/bridegroom analogy appears so frequently in scripture. Thus, a bad marriage is really a bad illustration. Divorce is a complete departure from the pattern. The third reason God created marriage--and the one that has to do with happiness--is self-realization. God said about Adam, It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make a helper suitable for him. (Genesis 2:18) God knew that Adam lacked something vital, and put His finger on the perfect solution: Eve. Marriage is God's way of fulfilling what you lack.

This is the reason why husbands and wives are so different. If you were identical, one of you would be unnecessary. He provides you with a partner as unlike yourself as needed to create the kind of balance that brings wholeness. A couple bonded together in Christ can accomplish far more together than either could achieve alone.

Thus, we can see that, from the beginning, God has high pur- poses for pairing us up. In order to fulfill His plans, the bond between a man and wife had to be made strong--in fact, virtually indestructible. Marriage had to be more than an arrangement between two people.


About the Marriage Covenant
Consider this key passage of scripture:

And this is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the Lord with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. Yet you say, for what reason? Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. (Malachi 2:13- 14)

Every concept discussed in this book depends on our understanding of that seemingly innocuous Hebrew word: covenant.

Most of us think of covenant as another word for contract. In a contract, both parties spell out the specific terms of their agreement. When they ratify the document with their signatures, a legally binding pact is the result.

A covenant, on the other hand, adds an additional ingredient to the mixture: a relationship. A contract outlines how people will perform services or make payments. A covenant specifies the terms under which the parties relate with one another.

For example, the new covenant, referred to in Luke 22:20 (. . . the new covenant in my blood . . .) refers to God's creation of the Church as His means of reaching the world. He establishes the terms of His relationship with His people. What does this new understanding of covenant teach us about the bond of marriage?

1. It is crucial to keep in mind that marriage is a legal relationship established by God.

Remember Malachi 2:14?

. . . the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth . . .

The Hebrew word for witness means a legal accuser. The Lord has seen what you have done as a breach of the law, and has taken the stand against you. He has entered the heavenly courtroom and has indicted you because you are divorcing your mate.

Marriage is a covenant made under the jurisdiction of divine law. Men can make and break human covenants, but only God has authority over the divine. That explains why Jesus said, What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate. (Matthew 19:6)

How interesting that we want God to marry us, but men to separate us. We want God to bless the marriage, but when trouble strikes, we call the lawyers and head downtown.

The major problem with this plan is that God does not recognize the actions of an earthly judge who acts in defiance of divine authority. When a human being in a black robe bangs a gavel and says, Divorce granted, God does not automatically nod in agreement. If the grounds for divorce don't measure up in God's eyes (and we'll examine those standards later), the Lord will ignore the judge's decree, leaving you--from God's point of view- -just as married as ever.

This explains what Jesus meant when He said that if a man puts away his wife and marries another woman, he is committing adultery. On the basis of divine law, God still sees the first marriage as valid.

2. The marriage covenant functions under authority.

Since covenants govern relationships, they always deal with the issue of authority. Without a hierarchy of authority, chaos is the result.

The chain of command for the family is described in I Corinthians 11. God is over Christ, Christ is over every man, and the man is over the woman. Though both spouses are under God, the woman is to submit to the leadership of the man. Children are to submit to the authority of their parents. The bottom line is this: God is the ultimate authority in a marriage because it's a divine institution. Our desires, disagreements and discontentment are secondary issues.

3. Like all covenants, the marriage covenant is broken under the penalty of death.

When you break any covenant of God, you die on the spot, immediately. You may have been divorced for years and thinking to yourself, I'm alive and well! I'm sorry. You died.

Let me illustrate what I mean.

. . . and the Lord God commanded the man saying, from any tree in the garden you may eat freely, but from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat. For in the day you eat from it, you shall surely die. (Genesis 2:16)

Did Adam fall down dead the moment he bit into the fruit? No. But he was excommunicated from the garden. He was removed from the presence and the fellowship of God. His world crumbled. He didn't die physically, but he did die.

Remember the spiritual definition of death: separation. You exist eternally from the moment of conception. Even after you die physically, you continue to exist either in heaven or ******. When you break a covenant with God, you are immediately separated from Him. And once separated, you are dead.

4. There is a cause-and-effect connection between our faithfulness to the covenant and our relationship with God.

Our text, Malachi 2:13-14, demonstrates this action/reaction principle.

The people weep and groan because God ignores their offerings. That's the effect. The cause is identified in verse 14: dealing treacherously with (i.e. divorcing) the wife of your youth. Does the New Testament support this idea? Check out I Peter 3:7 for the answer:

Husbands, dwell with your wives according to knowledge as with the weaker vessel, for she is a woman, and grant her honor as a joint-heir so that your prayers may not be stopped.

Satan is adept at convincing us that spiritual death is not im- mediate and perhaps not even a reality. In fact, it is literally the oldest trick in the Book. Way back in Genesis 2:4, there is the serpent telling Eve, You surely shall not die. That lie has worked again and again and again. People are eager to believe they can break God's covenant and not die. But Satan's lies have no effect on God's truth.

5. The marriage covenant is a means of transferring blessing.

Deuteronomy chapter 28 helps us understand this idea. Now it shall be, if you will diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you if you will obey the Lord your God. Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country. Blessed shall be the offspring of your body and the produce of your ground and the offspring of your beasts, the increase of the herd and the young of your flock. . . (Deuteronomy 28:1-4)

The list of blessings continues throughout the first half of the chapter. Then, we read:

But it shall come about that, if you will not obey the Lord your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes which I charge you today, that all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. (Deuteronomy 28:15) The balance of the chapter lists curse after curse. Basically, God says, it's up to you. If you stay in the covenant, you get the blessings. If you abandon the covenant, you trade the blessings for the curses. A parallel is found in the New Testament, where children are promised long life if they honor the covenant with their parents by being obedient. (see Ephe- sians 6:-13)

Obviously, God takes His covenants seriously. That's why He tells us so clearly in Malachi 2:16, I hate divorce. It has nothing to do with two people living apart. It's not a matter of what becomes of the children or how to make ends meet financially. God hates divorce because it represents the breaking of a covenant.


Grounds for Divorce
So, when is a marriage legitimately dead? What ends a marriage in the eyes of God?

Those were the questions posed by the Pharisees to Jesus in Matthew 19:3. They wanted to know, Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause at all?

The question was the result of a debate taking place at the time between two prominent Jewish scholars. On one side, there was Rabbi Hillel who argued that a man can divorce his wife for any cause--burning supper, getting wrinkles on her face, whatever. Then there was the school of thought headed by Rabbi Shamai, who said that divorce is only permissible on the grounds of immorality. The Pharisees brought the question to Jesus to see which side he would take. Their aim was to turn his choice into a trap.

Notice that Jesus began His response by turning to the Scripture, the best authority.

Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female? For this cause a man shall leave his mother and father and shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. Consequently, they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate. (Matthew 19:4-6)

Though we examined this passage earlier in another context, let me point out some additional thoughts brought out by the text. First, God created them. Second, He married them; He joined them together. Third, He identified them as one flesh.

Jesus' response was very shrewd. The Pharisees were looking for a comment on divorce. The Lord demonstrated that you can't have an intelligent discussion about divorce until you have a divine understanding of marriage. What God has joined together, let no man separate.

The Pharisees challenged Jesus.

Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate and divorce her? (Matthew 19:7)

They surely thought they had Jesus this time. If God tied the knot so tightly, they reasoned, why did Moses make divorce seem so easy?

The answer is found in the source of their argument, Deuteronomy 24:1-4, which says that if a husband found uncleanness in his wife, he could send her away.

Note the subtle difference in meaning. The Pharisees are asking why Moses commanded divorce. Jesus replies that because of the hardness of heart, Moses permitted it. (Matthew 19:8) According to Jesus, Moses relented in the face of stubborn dis- obedience. But He goes on:

. . . from the beginning it has not been this way. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife except for immorality and marries another woman, commits adultery. (v. 8-9)

By Jesus' logic, not only is the man who divorces his wife committing a sin, he is starting a cycle of sin that will involve several others. If this man's wife remarries, he has caused her to commit adultery by forcing her into a position of needing the security and safety of a new husband. The man who marries that ex-wife also commits adultery. And so on, and so on . . . See how complicated it has become? Three or more adulterers are mired in sin as the result of irreconcilable differences.

You may now be wondering why God would ask you to stay committed to a relationship plagued by these irreconcilable differences. Simply because, from God's perspective, no differences are truly irreconcilable. Painful and frustrating, perhaps, but not irreconcilable.

Remember, the marriage relationship is a model of Christ's commitment to His church. Where would you be if the Lord divorced you every time you went astray? Would any of us have a chance of salvation if He dealt with us this way? Marriage is a lifetime process of growth, development and problem solving. Anyone who believes otherwise has been reading too many fairy tales.


How the Covenant is Compromised
Since, as we have seen, Jesus only allowed for divorce on the grounds of immorality, it is important for us to understand exactly what He meant by that word. Leviticus 18:3 gives us some clarification of the kind of immorality that terminates the mar- riage covenant in God's sight.

You shall not do what is done in the land of Egypt where you lived, nor are you to do what is done in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. You shall not walk in their statutes, you are to perform My judgements and keep My statues to live in accord with them. I am the Lord, your God. You shall keep My statutes and My judgements by which a man may live if he does them; I am the Lord.

Before I get into the specifics, let me point out the principle behind them. God says He doesn't care what they do in Egypt, and He doesn't care what they do in Canaan. You are to obey His statutes. If I could update and paraphrase this passage, it might read something like this: I don't care what they're offering downtown. I don't care if they come along with no-fault divorces; those are Egypt's and Canaan's statutes, not Mine. You live by My laws, not theirs. The truth of this applies not only to marriage, but to every aspect of our lives. And if we keep His laws, we'll live. We won't suffer from the kind of death I've been talking about throughout this book.

In Leviticus 18, God goes on to describe the kind of behavior sure to bring about spiritual death and destroy the covenant between a man and wife. To summarize, He specifically forbids incest, adultery, immoral behavior with children, homosexuality and bestiality. The details are all laid out in this passage; they are unmistakably clear. In the New Testament, the Greek word for immorality is pornia. This is the root of the English word pornography, and refers to any kind of sexually deviant activity.

Immorality without repentance breaks the covenant between a husband and wife and legitimizes divorce in the eyes of God. Paul expands on Jesus' teaching on divorce in his letter to the Corinthians. He writes:

. . . if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, let him not send her away. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, let her not send her husband away. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. (I Corinthians 7:12-15)

Here, Paul teaches that a believer who is married to a non- believer is not obligated to maintain the marriage relationship if the unbeliever elects to leave. Of course, this presumes that the believer has done everything possible to live a holy and exemplary life before the unsaved spouse, and has not driven the unbeliever away by failing to exercise their biblical role properly.

When Paul says the believer is not under bondage, he means that the individual is no longer bound by covenant to that rela- tionship and is free to enter another one--provided the new husband or wife is a Christian. (See II Corinthians 6:14) Paul also teaches that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come. (II Corinthians 5:17) With new birth begins a new life. Thus, a person who divorces a mate prior to becoming a Christian is allowed to remarry.


The Verdict of the Church
Who has the authority to determine when divorce is legitimate in the eyes of God? The Bible is quite clear about how legal disputes (and the breaking of a covenant is a legal dispute) between believers are to be dealt with.

Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, matters of this life? If then you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren, but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers? Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? (I Corinthians 6:7)

If my neighbor happens to be my spouse, where do I take my case? Paul's answer is to go before the Church Court. The apostle presumes that the Church will develop and operate its own system of binding litigation for believers. What goes on in courtrooms downtown is governed by man's law; the Church Court, however, answers to a higher authority.

Thus, the church has been charged and empowered by God to render judgement on His behalf, based on the authority of Scrip- ture.

This brings us to two important questions: how are courts to be established in the Church? And once they are established, how should courts judge divorce cases?

The book of Exodus is a good place to begin answering our questions. There, we can see the theological roots of ecclesiastical courts.

Here's the situation: Moses, as Israel's judge, had the only game in town; every dispute came directly before him. With two million people to serve, the litigants lined up from dawn to dusk and poor Moses was working himself to death.

Moses' father-in-law, Jethro, recognized the problem and provided the answer.

The thing you are doing is not good. You will surely wear out, both yourself and these people who are with you, for the task is too heavy for you; you cannot do it alone. Now listen to me, I shall give you counsel, and God be with you. You will be the people's representative before God and you bring the disputes to God, then teach them the statutes, the laws, and make known to them the way in which they are to walk and the work they are to do. Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain, and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens. And let them judge the people at all times and let it be that every major dispute they will bring to you, but every minor dispute they themselves will judge. So it will be easier for you and they will bear the burden with you. (Exodus 18:1722)

A system of lower courts was put in place--similar to our municipal, state and federal courts--answerable, ultimately, to the Supreme Court. Cases move from lower to higher courts by means of an appeal process. This is exactly what the Church is supposed to have.

Let's move into the New Testament and see how the court operates.

And if your brother sins, go reprove him in private. If he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer. (Matthew 18:15-17)

If a fellow-believer has done something wrong--legally, personally or maritally--you start with the lowest court and work your way up. If the process fails to bring about restoration (which, of course, is the goal), then we are no longer to view our rebellious believer as a Christian; he is now listed under the heading of sinner.

Let me give you an example of how this Church Court works: A lazy husband quits his job, refuses to look for another, and squanders the family finances that still remain. In the meantime, the wife and children barely have enough to live on. The wife explains her concerns and asks him to take his family responsibilities more seriously. No response.

After the wife informs the church leadership (elders and deacons) about what is going on, two or three representatives of the church are sent to the home to talk with the husband. He very casually explains that he disliked his job and needed some time to do as he pleased. When challenged about the family's lack of food and imminent eviction from the home, he informs the visitors that they should keep their noses out of his business and asks them to leave.

The matter is then brought before the leadership of the church, who may elect to bring the matter before the entire congregation. Either way, the same authority is consulted: the law of God. The Word tells us that if a man will not work, he shall not eat. (II Thessalonians 3:10) Elsewhere we're told that a man who doesn't take care of his family has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. (I Timothy 5:8) By abandoning his respon- sibility and refusing to repent, the husband has made the chu- rch's response inevitable. One last effort should be made to win the man to repentance. If he still does not respond, scripture teaches that he is to be treated as an outsider.

Under these circumstances, the church has the authority to determine that this man has denied his faith and broken the cove- nant with his wife. Based on the guidelines in I Corinthians 7 (the unbeliever who elects to leave), the church can declare that the wife is, in God's eyes, legitimately divorced and free to remarry if she chooses.

Of course, the church also has the responsibility to do every- thing possible to facilitate a reconciliation, even to the point of orchestrating a temporary separation. (See I Corinthians 7:10-11)

You may ask, Where is God while these church members are rendering such weighty decisions? For the answer, we turn back to Matthew 18:18-20:

Truly I say to you, whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by my Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.

This passage is often misquoted by those with a name it and claim it mentality--people who believe God will give us anything we want if we can get somebody to ask with us. But look at the context. This verse is talking about the legal process. It is as though God is saying, If you will agree to act on My Word regarding how sin is to be dealt with, then I will honor your verdict when you request that I do so.

Another frequently mistreated phrase is found in this passage: Where two or three have gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst. Many take this to mean that if the attendance at your prayer meeting or church service exceeds one, God is there. That may be true, but it is not the point of this verse. Again, consider the context. When we gather in His name to make judgements in accordance with His word, He is with us. God stands beside us, adding His endorsement to the decisions rendered by the lower courts He established.

Can you grasp the significance of this passage--especially in light of the context in which we find it? The Church is given absolute authority in applying the Scripture, and absolute assurance that God will back the decisions they hand down, as long as they are rooted in His word.

However, there is an even more compelling reason to turn to the church instead of the courts when a marriage falters. Troubled marriages are the by-products of troubled people. A judge can do nothing but recognize that you've given up on your marriage and endorse the surrender. But, by God's power, the Church can offer new life. When problems are brought before the Body, believers can offer love, support, encouragement, fellowship and the super- natural saving power of God through Jesus Christ. There's nothing downtown that can even come close!

Let me repeat, lest you miss the point: God's intent is life- long marriage. Even if your grounds for divorce are legitimate, don't be too quick to cling to your rights. Genuine love and heart-felt forgiveness are far more Christ-like than calling it quits. Remember that even in the face of betrayal and in the process of being murdered, Christ said, Forgive them, for they know not what they are doing. (Luke 23:34) Where would we be if He had exercised his rights?

Perhaps you and your mate started off on the wrong foot. Or maybe you started off on the right foot and it's gone wrong. Either way, if your relationship is less than ideal, don't let it deteriorate a moment longer. Let today be the turning point. Seek qualified Christian counseling together. Take the time to renew your vows and reinforce the covenant between you and your spouse--and between you and the Lord.

In His arms.


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,621
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,621
“No modified MB principles coming from me. I have been going right by the book.”

Good for you, MM. Sorry to misunderstand. (My post was not just for you.)

I agree wholeheartedly four years of false recovery are long enough. Way long enough. I have been where you are. I went through 5 years of false recovery, then FWW moved out and talked to an attorney the day after DDay 2. The difference is proactive by-the-book MB this second time vs regular MC and a typical talking cure last time. I put my money on MB methods. They are what broke up the VLTA. Well, plus NE.

I remember, a long time ago, one of your posts referred to being on a mission. This was one of my first light bulb moments after I came here. You planted a good idea in my head way back then. I thank you for that. I used to ask myself in some of the worst times WWMMD? Lol.

You know, false recoveries are like mission creep. Bring ex-military you probably know about mission creep. Objectives keep getting added with no increase in capability. It’s no-win unless we stick to the requirements. Hence MB.

Whatever you did right and whatever you did wrong, you are where you are. I am confident you will do your best.

With prayers,


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
Page 17 of 19 1 2 15 16 17 18 19

Moderated by  Fordude 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 335 guests, and 70 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
AG2DMAX, Drb6317, Linda Horan, BillTages, salmawis
71,968 Registered Users
Latest Posts
Roller Coaster Ride
by still seeking - 04/30/25 02:29 PM
I didn’t have a chance
by still seeking - 04/26/25 03:32 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,623
Posts2,323,495
Members71,969
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 2025, Marriage Builders, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5