Alph, thanks. And yes, I do see the analogy with mission creep. And the best way to get away from mission creep is to always go back to the original operations order and understand what it is you are doing there. And then, anything that is getting in the way of that, must go.

In His arms.

MM, thanks for the references. I had often wondered about the Christian view that the only grounds for divorce are adultery. It's interesting to read both the articles that you posted.

From my further research on the word in question, porneia, it appears that the first is a somewhat less popular interpretation. That's the one that says that there are no grounds for divorce and that the Matthew 19:3 passage refers to sexual contact between unmarried people during a betrothal period, rather than after marriage.

The second one appears to be somewhat more mainstream, though that one is interesting in that it allows various grounds for divorce in its example about a man who refuses to support his family and won't listen to the people who try to tell him to get back to doing that.

There are various other views of what porneia means, according to what I read on the Web. Among them are "sexual immorality," "fornication" (which is, in its literal form, sex between unmarried people), "harlotry," "adultery," "unchasisty," and various other things.

One of the better references for the different definitions that I found was at http://www.padfield.com/1996/fornicat.html.

It's also worth noting that there is a specifically used word when only adultery is meant, and that's moicheia. It appears to me (and I could be wrong) that the most common scholarly interpretation is that porneia is a general term that is used throughout the New Testamant to mean, most of the time, general. Here's a quote I ran across that sums up much of what I read:

“This is a general term for all unlawful intercourse, (I) adultery: Hos. ii. 2, 4 (LXX.); Matt. v. 32; xix. 9; (2) unlawful marriage, I Cor. v. I; (3) fornication, the
common sense as here [Eph 5:3].” By “the common sense” evidently reference is made to the modern, limited, sense involving only unmarried persons.

(From a Google Answers discussion of the term,http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=547123 .)

Fascinating. Just fascinating. Thanks, MM!

Mortarman, in this instance I would have to say that I tend toward agreement with JustJ's position.

Suffice it to say for now that the Pharisees who confronted Jesus in an attempt to "trap" him with Moses were NOT limiting divorce to "premarriage betrothals." They were most definitely talking about ALL divorce, but primarily divorce between MARRIED people "for any reason" as allowed by MOSES to the husbands, not to the wives.

By the same token, Paul would NOT have allowed for divorce in the case of an unbelieving spouse who chooses to leave the MARRIAGE.

All that aside, brother, how are YOU doing?

(((((Mortarman)))))

God bless and make His peace known to you.

Hummm....that's a toughy for me to explain to my satisfaction. Remember, I'm still working on this stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

But, I'll start with the dictionary definition: "Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it."

First, it is the awareness of another's suffering. I'm finding out that this suffering of others is hidden behind a lot of strange & hurtful behavior. My H was suffering during his 6 year long affair with the internet. I just couldn't see any of it because of the hurt I experienced from it. I still don't always see it. I had a semi-blowup about a week ago where I raged about him not showing enough remorse. I couldn't really articulate what I wanted from him, but in trying to sort it all through for myself, I wanted to see him suffer. It wasn't enough for me to be aware that he most likely does still suffer from his very foolish choices over the years.

So this awareness has to be coupled with a desire to actually help. Now where I get tripped up is that I try to force my idea of help. If a person doesn't respond the in the manner the Bible states (or even they way I think that person should), it gets me upset. I lose compassion. It riles me up that the person just won't see that (s)he is hitting her/himself with a hammer, totally destroying the use of her/his thumb. I feel disgust, anger for their stubborness. I feel inadequate to relive the suffering, devalued by the ignoring of my sound advice, powerless to prevent what I know will be heartbreak.

So what am I left with? One option only. Let the person go in the direction they want. (I think your example of your son's chair fall is a good one of what I mean.)




Yep, Jesus told the woman accused of adultery to go and sin no more. He didn't say - you are an unbeliever, you must get right with God, you must.....anything. He told her what to do, after she asked him what he planned to do with her. Then he let her go - with no demand that she follow his suggestion, no shame for what she was, no reminder that she actually was an adulteress.

We know that the men who dragged her to Jesus were actually following the law. They were upholding what Moses had commanded them to do. And yet, Jesus had compassion them as well. He could have shouted the mens' sins from his seat. No, he wrote them in the dust, where they would be erased within minutes - if not seconds, not demanding anything from them either, but reminding them that they also had made mistakes.



Yes! Yes! That's my problem too. Bitterness and anger from working years to make my marriage work, only to find out my H had been sabotaging it for almost the entire length of our marriage. And his apparent desire to keep the marriage, to truthfully face what he has done and the put in effort is still not enough for me to let go. I've had to work hard at healing, and I found a way to do that through compassion.

It's kinda funny how that happened. God was instrumental in it. I was encouraged to attend a Compassion Power telephone class before I found out about the porn. I worked at the principals and the exercises pretty dilligetly, but my husband could have cared less. He kept saying he'd do it, but wouldn't make any effort. I was rotten at holding my temper, rotten at even acknowledging that he had a point of view, set in my ways and insistent that he become the H that God had ordained him to be. I flung verses around, called his relationship with God untrue (since he was not living up to standard) and basically got myself to a place where I believed that if he would just get himself right, then our marriage would be great. Since he wasn't showing any interest in participating in compassion with me, I saw no reason to really go the distance.

Then God revealed the porn to me in a most extrodinary way and all bets were off. I was lost in my hurt, anger and bitterness.

I was allowed to attend another telephone class, this time on parental compassion. I worked at it again. I saw great results in how I reacted to my kids.

Part of my conditions for reconciliation was that my H actually take the classes he had promised to take. He did. Then he decided to attend a Compassion Power Seminar. HA! Finally, he would get what was coming to him.

But the still small voice wouldn't let me be. Grudgingly, I agreed to attend the same Seminar. It's amazing we made it there in one piece. I wanted to tear him apart when I first saw him (after 5 1/2 months of a very good Plan B). Luckily, God still chose to talk to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The things that sticks out the most for me are these two things: You can not be compassionate towards anyone unless you are compassionate towards yourself, and you can not be compassionate towards yourself unless you are compassionate to others. Circular - but oh, so true.

The other is this: If other people came down on my husband the way I did, I would rise to his defense. I wouldn't let others talk about him (or his relationship with God) as I did.

It's been sobering and so very, very difficult for me to comprehend. I am stubborn. I want to be in the right.

Yet, the amazing thing of it all to me is that I think I will actually get to the place where I can be as Jesus wants me to be. I will be able to repay evil with good, I will be able to feel sorrow when the wicked have bad things happen to them. Not because I don't think they should be able to avoid consequences, but because of the sorrowful road they have made for themselves. How awful.

Compassion is a way to heal the bitterness and the hurt. Speaking ill (even if it's the God's honest truth) of a loved one is a way to perpetuate the anger.

I would see you healed. No matter what happens to your marriage.

SLA

So, MM? How's it going?

MM -

I hope things are going well for you. Check in when you get a chance. I'll be keeping you in my prayers.

Just a quick update, as not sure exactly what's going on here.

Overtures by my wife last night were made. Some affection. She was upset and crying. Said she would talk to me later about all of it.

I am not sure what exactly is going on, as I have pulled almost completely out. Very close to dark! But, I do have these visions of the Lord moving out there. A lot of activity outside...while very quiet in my world inside. It will be interesting to hear what the Lord has been doing. The funny thing is that I know none of it, as I literally have been in a very quiet place for two weeks.

So, not sure what's up with her. I do know by her clinging to me last night, and her crying...and all of the attempted discussions by her these past two weeks, that a lot is falling on her right now. So, the Lord may be actually able to reach her now that I am fully out of the way. Who knows? I will post the whole thing once I hear more. Until I do know more, I am going to continue to stay out of it and rest. This is between her and Jesus.

It may appear that the Fat Lady may not be ready to sing yet. More soon.

In His arms.

Mortar,

You are in my prayers. Hopefully this is the beginning of more good things to come.

God Bless.

Compassion and ethics, MM. Proceed with those, and you'll do all right. (I know you'll go with God and Jesus, so I don't need to mention those, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

I like your news, MM.

-ol' 2long

MM, just wanted to let you know that I think about you and your family alot and truly pray your W comes completely out of the fog. You have helped me and so many other while struggling with your own situation and that is truly commendable.

Prayers for you ....

(((((Mortarman)))))

It all sort of depends upon one's belief in election doesn't it?

Sovereign.

That is what God is. "Peace" comes from understanding, knowing, and believing that God IS Sovereign no matter what happens.

Wisdom comes from applying the lessons to our own lives that God teaches us through the circumstances in our lives.

When the Shepard goes looking for one of His who has gotten separated from the flock, He not only "finds" him/her, He LEADS them back.

"In His Arms," "Under His Wings," "In His Hands," "We Are His." All ways for saying God is Sovereign and we are His.

God bless and comfort you as you trust in Him to BE Sovereign in your life and in your wife's life.

Hugs, brother. I saw that same sort of struggle in my wife 4 years ago. The battle between "light" and "dark," "my will and God's will," "spirit and flesh," "right and wrong," God's way and my way." He who has overcome the world and who has had all things placed at His feet cannot be defeated no matter how long one chooses to fight instead of surrender. Also, for you, "How long I have waited....." Christ knows YOUR struggle with time and circumstance and is there for you just as He was for Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. HIS care IS personal.

Thanks FH. I do understand this now. It is interesting you bring up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. I was thinking about them the other day...how they willingly stepped into the fire knowing God would be there for them. How they weren't burned up and it confounded their would-be murderers. They must have thought they had won, until they tried to kill Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. And then, as their plans were destroyed...they must have felt very small indeed.

Had an interesting talk with my wife last night before she went to work. We were going to talk Tuesday (I guess we still may) concerning what happened the other night (see my previous post). Anyway, I asked her if there were any changes, or was I just reading into the other night. Her response? Well, she said it was sad that that the father of her children was this way. That we have such great kids and we did a great job with them, to only have our marriage end up like this. It was sad what I am doing to her (she means concerning my pullback from her since January). She then went on to say that if things continue this way, then it will indeed be over.

Huh????????????????????????????????????

I thought I was just filed on. I thought she had been saying that she wanted me out. Then all the nasty things she said after court. And now, she is sad because of what I have done and she is saying it will be over unless I change things??? It is so stupifying to stand close to the fog!!

Anyway, I just said that deep down, she knows better. That all I hear is what Mortarman is doing (or supposedly doing) wrong. No personal responsibility on her part. No repentence for her sins agaisnt me and the marriage. No commitment. No effort toward doing the things that would move this marriage forward. I told her these are the things that are causing all of this. I told her if she wanted any more changes, that it would be her top step up to the plate. I told her I can no longer justify making unilateral effort toward the relationship. That if she did indeed felt this way about me and her family (that it is sad where we are at), then she had the power to change it. And I would be willing to go the extra mile.

I told her at this point, I am ready to go either way. So, if she thinks that a few more weeks or months of the current situation will mean that things are "over," then I told her she might as well consider them over now. But if she wanted to change things and begin to do what is right, then all of this can change over night.

As my pastor friend said...what I am looking for is tears of repentence out of her. Tears where she isnt pointing fingers and laying blame. Tears where she looks at herself and says "This is my fault." I have done this with myself. Unfortunately, without the same thing out of her, then there is no hope.

I told her that our issues are not because of Mortarman. They are because of Mortarman AND Mrs. Mortarman. The change happens when both of us make the changes together. If that is what she wants, then the next step is hers.

I didnt tell her this next thing...but, at this point, it is about surrender. She must surrender in true repentence. she must step up to the plate and say "I was wrong. And I will do what it takes to make things right...no matter what you do." This is the attitude needed...of both of us.

I have surrendered to our marriage. This is evident because I havent divorced her, havent kicked her to the curb...havent taken everything. It is evident because I have continued for 4 years to try to chaneg the things she needed changed...and tried to meet needs even in very difficult circumstances. It is now up to her to step up in submission to her Lord Jesus, and in Biblical submission to me.

Anything short of that? Well, the boundary has been set and the line drawn. Unlike many backsliding BS's on here, I will not allow that line to be moved.

I stand here, with the aid of my Lord...and wait on the surrender of my wife to Him. She has choices here...freewill. But she no longer has me to allow her to not make a choice. Even with no choice by her being made...the choice will be made for her. Thus, she made a choice.

We talk about this all of the time on here. How BSs feel powerless. But we are not powerless. We can take charge of this. We can meet needs and do Plan A AND still draw boundaries. We can fight for our marriage, and that sometimes means walking away. And leaving the results to God and the WS to work out.

We will talk again tomorrow. again, I didnt say all of this stuff to her. I didnt really try to defend myself against her obvious distortions of what I have done and what I am doing. I intend to keep listening and to keep asking questions.

Questions? Well, I have found that is the best way to get thru to WSs. Example?

"You dont care about me...you just want things your way."
Response: "Really? You really believe that? Why?"
WS response: "Because you did this, and you did that, and you did this other thing."
BS response: "So, because I did these things, that means I didnt and dont care about you?"
WS response: "Yes."
BS response: "I never thought of what I was doing in that way. I certainly didnt mean for you to take what I was doing in that way."
WS response: "Well, I did."
BS response: "I am sorry that I aided in your misperception of my motives."

So, we'll see tomorrow night. She seems to want me to step up and do a whole lot of things (like take over financial issues because she does have a bad back and needs to leave her job). And I would do all of it and more...when I see Mrs. Mortarman again.

The line has been drawn. We both surrender to His will...or this marriage will end. And she is right...that is very sad.

In His arms.

***You dont care about me...you just want things your way."
Response: "Really? You really believe that? Why?"
WS response: "Because you did this, and you did that, and you did this other thing."
BS response: "So, because I did these things, that means I didnt and dont care about you?"
WS response: "Yes."
BS response: "I never thought of what I was doing in that way. I certainly didnt mean for you to take what I was doing in that way."
WS response: "Well, I did."
BS response: "I am sorry that I aided in your misperception of my motives."***

Care to post the specifics of what she actually said?
Mulan

MM:

This is SO important for a woman. Why does she FEEL that you do not care about her? Although her FEELINGS may not fit with reality, this would be good for you to ponder, I think. So, as Mulan suggests, the SPECIFICS of this are significant.

I know you are tired and want a rest..but it seems like GOOD NEWS that she is conflicted about proceeding with divorce and breaking up her family.

Mulan,

Sure. I am ALWAYS an open book!

The beef my wife supposedly has with me now is concerning finances. I have outlined that in another thread before this one (I think it was back in early April). Anyway, the cliff note version is this:

Mrs. MM declared bankruptsy when she first moved out in the fall of 2002. Our financial difficulties are well known on my threads, and what they did to help drag down things...and put pressure on my wife that led to her wanting out.

Anyway, for the past few years, I have been trying to pay down those debts that were left in my name, as I do not have the luxury of walking away from my debts (also, as a Christian, I cant walk away from them!!). Anyway, thsi past December, I was notified I was up for review on my security clearance. I went to my wife and said "We need to sit down and work on things, especially the finances." She just blew me off.

For the year since we got back together, we did have a friendly relationship. Some nights spent holding each other and watching TV, etc. But no intimacy to speak of. No work on her part on the relationship. No counseling.

So, when I came to her in December, I told her that we needed to work on things, our relationship and the finances. That she just blew it off began a series of events in me that culminated in what happened in January.

A bried overview on our finances. My wife was a SAHM for 8 1/2 years. Once I got home from Bosnia right at our 9th anniversary, I had been responsible for 100% of the family income. Three months later, she moves out, gets a boob job with part of the sale of our house, hides the rest of the money with the OM, and then declares bankruptsy. In the meantime, the kids and I begin a long 7 month building back up of our lives, with my WW rarely around. She came back in April 2003, and graduated from nursing school the next month. She started her current job two months later.

For the next year, she lived with us but paid almost nothing toward bills, etc. i apid everything, which didnt really bother me as we had always said we would live off of my paycheck and hers would be gravy.

Then, she moved out again in August 2004 and got her own place (her Mom moved in with her). A month later she filed for divorce. And two months later, we went to court and I got primary physical custody of the kids. During these four months, she paid everything (her and her Mom) for her house, but she only had the kdis half the time. I took care of the other half, still working on paying down the debt.

In January 2005, I moved into the place she got after supposedly we reconciled. I made the deal with her to give her $1200 every two weeks to help with the bills. But I said, and our counselor told her, that this needed to be temporary, as separate financial systems would only lead to trouble (he was so right).

During 2005, I paid for over 70% of the bills as outlined by my wife, while only making 60% of the income coming into the house.

Which brings me back to this last December. Here she was bringing in 40% of the income, only paying 30% of the household bills...and doign nothign to work on the marriage. She bought clothes and other stuff weekly for herself. Whil I struggled to continue to pay off the debt.

In January, I got the inital assessment of the clearance review and faced a loss of my clearance (and job) if several bills did not go away immediately. I then confronted my wife with the ultimatum: sit down, work with me on the finances and our marriage, or we go to divorce. But the finances will change immediately if she does not step up.

Well, she didnt. So, I cut back the $2400 a month she was gettign to around $400 a month and threw everything I had at the problem in February and March. In the meantime, she immediately filed for child support because she was ticked off that I had pulled back the funds. Two weeks after filing, stuff started showing up at my house from the OM (a Valentines gift and a letter with classified ads for nursing positions in Florida). She began to rail against me for not providing for my family.

The last I checked, ALL of our bills are OUR bills! Last I checked, if I lost my job, then I would have not been able to pay any of them. The reduction was to be temporary as i took care of the issues. It still is low because since I have taken care of most of those issues, I now have the issue of paying my attorney and other associated issues because of her filing. Shoot, I paid over $3000 the last month to my attorney that could have gone to her for "bills."

So, instead of working 3 twelve hour shifts a week, she is now working 5. This all with her bad back from the traffic accident a year ago. Her doctor told her two weeks ago that she had to quit her job, because her back cannot take her ER nursing duties right now.

So, the conversation centered on her being said because I was a man that didnt take care of his family, that allowed his hurt wife to have to work so hard, etc.

But the truth of it is that most of that would have been temporary if she had not filed. By Arpil, we would have been out of the crisis. She said I should have gotten a second job. I asked "why." The reason I asked that is because why would I work extra for a woman making no effort to even sit down with me to come up with a plan. With a wife that wouldnt work on the marriage. As far as I am concerned, these were the consequences of her actions. These were the things she would have to do without me...and without me she would be if she didnt get with the program and start workign on the marriage. It would even be worse, because with me getting custody again (should I get custody), she would have to pay all of her bills PLUS $1200 a month to me for child support. Talk about long hours for her!!

So, that was the subject of the conversation. She refuses to see that I provided every dollar for this family for most of this marriage...even for her while she was cheating on me. Now, she doesnt want to work on things, doesnt want to do the thigns to work on the marriage, and doesnt want to meld the finances and come up with a plan...but is mad because I am being responsible and taking care of OUR bills!!

Anyway, that is the cliff note version, believe it or not.

In His arms.

The conflictedness is good news.

Why does she feel this way? Right now, because her #1 EN is Financial Security. And she knows her back is hurt, that the doctor has told her to leave her job and that I have given her less money to go toward all the things she spends money on (bills, clothing, etc). I know this.

But here's the thing. She had me paying almost everything over the last 4 years, and always had a reason why she couldnt work on the marriage. She had a opportunity to help shape the marriage over the last year, as I came to her tiem and again and asked us to go to counseling, to work on us...and to POJA our finances. With that, I would work 23 hours a day and she could stay home fulltime again.

But she never stepped up to the plate.

I understand her feelings. The issue now, because she has drug this out so long, is that if she truly needs this, then she needs to commit. This is an act of obedience, of doing what's right FIRST.

As I said above, the line has been drawn. She has enough exampels financially over 13 years to know that I am a man of honor and I take care of my wife and kids. And I would never let them go without. But right now, the household bills are in her name. And I am taking care of other bills, plus groceries, etc. It isnt like I am blowing money or gambing or something.

But, if she wants financial security, there must be repentence first. We are too far down the road now for anything less.

In His arms.

MM:

Given that you say that you are following the MB principles..

Given that you say that your WW is like any other WS...

Why you are not seeing this as continued fog?

Why do you think that just TELLING her what she needs to do will be effective?

Rather than framing it in terms of repentance (although repentance is necessary and that is what you are wanting), why don't you ask her FIRST to commit to WORKING on the marriage with YOU?

Actual repentance may come later..after the FOG has truly lifted.

It took many months IN RECOVERY before my H was able to state that he was IN LOVE with me...

The first step was him commitments to NC AND WORKING ON THE MARRIAGE...

He may have voiced repentance but I don't think that it was GENUINE early on in recovery...

This is EXACTLY how I framed it to her.

In His arms.