You know I know this Mimi. Some of what I type here is not for her eyes or ears. It is the internal dialog function of my brain.

What I was tryign to say is that I am not interested in meeting that EN of hers UNTIL she steps up to the plate.

Hope that clears it up.

In His arms.

Mimi,

That is such an odd set of questions given what MM is and has been saying here. What are you driving at? Are you feeling sorry for his WW because she has failed as a W, and has actively put the family in debt including hiding assets with OM? Where are you coming from and why are you asking what you are asking?

I find it very confusing. It seems to me MM has little choice but to do what he is doing. I can tell you for a FACT that his story about the security clearance is very very true. People that are financially weak are vulnerable that the security service knows this and it is one of the first things they check.

As you can tell your responses puzzle me.

JL

JL:


With all due respect to you, JL, MM seems to have understood by his responses to me. He and I have consistently been on the same page. He just doesn't CLARIFY things until I ask the questions.

Check out the conversation between MM and I on this thread again and you may understand what I am saying here.

You asked:


I can't say that I'm feeling sorry for her..not at all. However, I don't see her as any different than any other WS. That's what I was saying.

I have gotten called on this before..I know MM's wife isn't my H and MM is not me..BUT..I could tell long stories about DEBT (still struggling to recover) and hidden financial assets...

Plus, I hadn't read that post with specificity about the financial situation..security clearance issues, etc.... when I asked those questions.

Still puzzled?

It just looks to me that MM's WW is trying, however clumsily, to make overtures to him, but he refuses them at every turn.

At least she is trying to reconnect with you. It's a lot more than a lot of BSs have.

If everyone insisted on waiting until their WS was behaving perfectly until they took them back, there would no recovered marriages at all.

I think this is what both Mimi and I are trying to tell you.
Mulan

"At least she is trying to reconnect with you. It's a lot more than a lot of BSs have."

Believe ME, I understand this. My W doesn't appear 2 be anything as far "gone" as Mrs MM, and yet I still have a hard time conveying what SHE is doing/thinking on here. Her good points, 2 offset her hyperfoggy ones.

"If everyone insisted on waiting until their WS was behaving perfectly until they took them back, there would no recovered marriages at all."

The decision is all the more complicated if the WS isn't physically gone, 2. I don't have my W "back", but she never left, either.

And though Mrs MM has left more than once, she's "home but not back" now. Like MM, I'm tired, but still willing 2 sieze oppor2nities for positive change, if I can identify them...

...or if she asks for them.

-ol' 2long

Mulan -


Is she trying to make overtures, or keep her financial security?

To me, as a BS, an overture that I would respond to would be a willigness to work on the marriage. Granted, I don't know the details, and I can only draw upon what I've read and my own personal experiences, but it sounds more to me like Mrs. MM is trying to keep the status quo, not work on the marriage. She is laying the blame for the failure of their marriage 100% at MM's feet.

It is quite possible that she is beginning to realize what she stands to lose if she leaves again. However, beginning to realize is not the same thing as being willing to change her behaviors to prevent the consequences of her actions.

This isn't some recently discovered affair. This is a long-term (4 years) ongoing problem that MM has been dealing with to the best of his ability, based on his knowledge of the situation, his wife, himself and what Scripture directs him to do.

Mulan - I don't know your situation, and I'm not trying to attack you or even make you stop playing devil's advocate (or what have you). I do think that MM has more than adequately explained his position and where he is at in this thread.

In the final analysis, the best person to decide what to do in his situation is MM. Just as I am the best person to decide what to do in mine, and you are the best person to decide what to do in yours.

Opposing views are important - especially when the parties in question are willing to listen to them with an open mind. I believe MM has done that - several times - yet the same root questions seem to keep popping up.

Just my 2 cents. YMVW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For the record, to explain MY dialogue with MM, he, more than adequately answered my questions.




Broken you said:



You probably wouldn't know this.

I'm sticking with MM the way he stuck with me.

Many times I thought I had well-explained my reasons for not going into Plan B and for going out of Plan B and MM stayed right on my butt. He was right there every time for me....

Thanks JL. Yes, in some ways, I seem to be fielding the same questions concerning what I am doing and how I am treating my wife. Understandably...especially from those that I have helped, soem do not fully realize where I am at and what is going on...and it is hard to convey that fully here. As you pointed out JL!!

so, I really dont get angry or upset at the questions. It's okay, really. They actually keep me checking myself, checking my motives, making sure I am not off the path.

Thanks for your help, as it took me awhile to see what you were saying to me and to really take hold of it.

My path is clear now.

In His arms.

Mulan,

I think BrokenBird hit pretty close to it. Do I think she is trying to close the gap? Nope, not yet. Do I think reality is starting to hit her, both emotionally and financially, on what life will be like post-Mortarman? Yep.

And I believe now, that this is what she needs. She needs to see what her horrendous decisions will get her if she gets her way. she needs to get exactly what she is asking for. Only then, will she see the truth about me and about everything surrounding this mess.

This is NOT kicking her to the curb! This is letting her have the curb she has been asking for. Kinda what Dr. Dobson says when he says to open the cage door. Give them what they THINK they want.

It's like when I was little, maybe 12. And my Dad smoked. So I said I wanted to smoke. So my Dad said come on over...and he put the cig in my mouth and I took a deep draw...and got sick!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I never, ever smoked again (except cigars). My Dad let me have what I thought I wanted...and I realized how terrible it was for me.

So goes it with my wife. Let her see what her decisions do for her and her life. See where it leads her. And then, maybe she can stand up and do the right thing.

I guess that is what I have been saying.

In His arms.

JL:

For clarification purposes...

Are we saying that MM's wife is different than any other WW...

Are we saying that MM is different than any other BS..

On this forum?

It is helpful to ask questions for OUR OWN LEARNING....and to encourage MM to keep checking himself..as he says...

I respect Mulan for continuing to ask questions and to voice her opinions...

Same here..I will continue...

Who knows how this may be helping us....helping MM...and others that are reading...for some reason or another...

MM is correct..he helped me by encouraging my continual re-evaluation of my actions and motives...

He is correct..it would seem hypocritical if he did not do the same.

Wow......I think it is almost amazing how intelligent people can see things so differently. I don't see Mortarman's wife making any "overtures" of reconciliation in any way, shape, or form...clumsily or dead on direct. Waiting for a WS to behave "perfectly"...HUH...? are you kidding me Mulan? What I see is a woman who may have to possibly own up and accept the responsibility for her CHOICES...and she doesn't like it. You see, Mortarman has always seen to it that at the end of the day she gets "let off the hook" and is given a 50th "second chance". I see a woman who reconciled with Mortarman one year ago NOT because she loved him and wanted to renew the marriage, not because she was remorseful and truly wanted to change....but SOLELY because she was scared to death to lose custody of her children. I won't buy for one second that Mortarman's false recovery last year was anything but about those children and the custody battle that MM brought on in getting them. And I would also gladly wager that this year's reconciliation (and there will NO DOUBT be a reconciliation) will be about finances and her inability to support herself because of her back problems.

I have heard many people say here that it doesn't matter why they (WS) come back to the marriage as long as they come back so the "principles" can be worked on them and SH counseling can commence. I vehemently disagree with that. I believe our good friend MM is in this exact situation because he allowed himself to believe this. He will be in the situation AGAIN if he CHOOSES this similar course of action.

Some people in life are just "bad people". Some people are who they are...I think it can be a fantasy sometimes about the "fog" and "addiction" that can go way beyond reality. MM's wife is still NOT fogged, 4 years later..come on folks. This is who she is TODAY. I am sorry that is so painful for people to believe...BUT one can ONLY go with the evidence that is presented here.

I will concede that I may be the only who feels this way about this situation and many think I am wrong and that MM can recover this marriage with more principle use and more counseling, etc...but.....well.....you know what I am gonna say....lets deal with REALITY...NOT fantasy of what "could be". I am all for "hope" and for "support" but never at the cost to one's own self morals, love, and dignity.

These overtures <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> that Mulan speaks of wouldn't be enough for me given these circumstances in this case...but that is just me.

For the record, I hope that MM spends not one more second looking at this snake oil about to be sold to him and concentrates on all of the other aspects of his life that are so dire in need of attention (finances, self health, job future, childrens well being). His repeatedly cheating wife has earned her share of "his efforts" a hundred times over.

Just my thoughts and opinion....take it for what it is worth (free).

Lem

Normally, Dr. L, I would completely agree with you - but there is just something about this situation that is striking me in a very different way. Not that MM's wife is different from any other WW - she's not - it's just that I think the chances for the reconciliation that MM *said* he wanted (until recently) were constantly being shot down on his part.

And yes, from what Mortarman has posted I did see his wife trying to reconnect with him.

But that's okay. As Mimi said, maybe it's just a woman thing that's making me get a very strange feeling about this one.
Mulan

Mulan...I reread my post and I wanted to make sure that you didn't think I was just picking on you or being overly sarcastic or demeaning to you. You are one of my favorite posters here, and I find it odd that we are in disagreement over this one (it is ok...you can't be right every time...<chuckle>

Lem

Exactly.....MM has put in a valiant effort and has honored his vows...From an objective person (that would be me)...there is no overture...it is survival mode and a spouse who is leeching off off another...with little or no regard for the vows that they're supposed to share...it is a one way street....Bravo LM for saying it...

MM -

How are things going? You've been kind of silent on this thread lately. I hope and pray that's a good sign.

Hey MM,
Sorry no advice because I haven't read enough of this thread yet... I've started but as usual it's hard to concentrate with all the opinion..... just a pat on the back and a prayer brother...wanted you to know I'm thinking of you and that I truly care... GOD BLESS... FRANK