Hi all,
I would love to get advice on this independant attitude issue...

My husband and I are in counseling, we are in pretty bad shape with our marriage to the point that we have considered separation (he would move back home)
we have 2 small children.

For the first time last night we really had a good talk and aired out problems recent as well as trying to work on things we discussed with our counselor. I initiated the discussion and apologized and said I would work on the issues he had raised about me. His statement was, I have made a couple mistakes myself and I am trying to work on them too.

One of my issues is his independant attitude ie: the fact that his hobbies are only for him and every friday or sat for most of the day or all evening he is gone doing his own thing with the boys. I used to be invited but sitters are expensive and the grandparents are up in years so it hard for them to sit regularly. Also, I didn't have children to leave them every weekend with various people.

The newest in a line of new friends contacted my husband and asked him to go away for several days on motorcycle trip .
After talking to him my husband called me at work and asked for us to talk tonight and mentioned the bike trip as the reason. He then went into details it would only costing 100.00, 4 days hotel.

Well at first all I could say was well....with our marriage the way it is I am not sure now is the time to go, what do you think?
I didn't mention that is also our anniversary weekend or the fact that money being tight he has already said, he doesn't want to have a family vacation. We took our first family vacation last year after 11 years of marriage he pushed for it and said, he wanted to find a way to take a vacation every year as a family because it was good for us.

He is also scheduled to go away in July for several days to do another hobby but in that case, it is paid for (not including food for the family) and we are invited. The hobby really won't involve us so he said, we can go site seeing on our own if we want or go to a friend pool.

I don't want to add fuel to the fire so rather than say no, I feel the best thing to do is put the ball back in his court and let him make the decision.
Is that the right thing to do?
We decided not to separate so as to work on our marriage but at this point, I would get more quality time with him if we were apart or I would find out if he really wanted to be married with a family.

Although he is almost finished the love busters book (passed the independant attitute section) I don't think he is getting it certainly not the love busters part!

Am I wrong to think he needs to put aside adding new hobbies and outtings with our marriage like it is?

Should I just let him go to keep from causing a fight ?

And if so, how do I put a side my feelings of anger at him once again spending money on his needs ?

God, just when I think we might be able to work this out I get slammed
and I am just plain tired of this mid life crisis.

Can anyone offer advice on this issue?

Heh,

Have *you* read the book? [winks}

OK..let me sun it up as well as I can..

You asked..if you should state your concerns..then ask him if he feels it is a good time to go.

This is..well, a little manipulative. Sort of what you might try [probably unsuccessfully] to do with a child...aka..do you think you should eat that cookie now even though dinner is in twenty minutes?

There is a scripted response..the only one you will accept as "reasonable" ..and probably not the one you are going to get from him.

He wants to go..he thinks it is time to go..he thinks it's a GREAT idea.

So where does that leave you?

Stating your own position..and not defending it or trying to justify it. Those are WEAK responses..most people..especially independent types.. do not respect them.

You could simply say..for example..

"HIS NAME HERE..I am not comfortable with this trip at this time"

This does not mean that you are telling him that HE can't go..you are telling him where YOU are at.

He may go regardless..at least the issue of controlling behavior has been removed though [so that's something!]

If you try to control him..he will be resentfull..and probably withdraw even further..

If you try to "get over it" and pretend to be OK with something that you really aren't..you will be resentfull..and emotionally dishonest to boot.

Probably the best solution available to you as part of a couple with independent behavior [his] and passive agressive tendancies [yours] as a key ingredient is POJA>>POJA>>POJA.

Never agree to something that you are not truly enthusiastic about.

Learning to negotiate will probably be a crucial tool for both of you.

There are alternatives..always are alternatives..but it takes time..effort..and committment to finding them.

Working together..you should be able..over a period of time.. to come up with ideas that you can BOTH be happy with.

That day may not be today..but marriage problems aren't fixed in a day. The general problems associated with unhealthy dynamics in your marriage will take much time and effort..and probably a really good pro marriage MC..

So..don't stake TOO much importance on this ONE incident..try to see the picture as a whole.

I'd begin by just standing your ground and being honest..no strings attached.

"H, I am not comfortable or enthusiastic about this trip..I am not going to try and defend my discomfort..I'm not willing to allow my feelings to require validation. You don't have to understand my reasons..you don't have to agree with them. The point is..I don't want you to go, I will be unhappy if you do."

Then just let it hang there.

Do not try to bring resolve..THIS is when the ball is in his court.

He can disregard your feelings..or

He can become willing to negotiate..

..but..

What he will probably try to do is convince you that your feelings are wrong..don't go there with him.

Let him make his own choices..they will be very revealing.

If his trip is more important to him than your happiness..it will reveal where he is RIGHT NOW with regard to his investment in your relationship.

Take that informatiopn and run with it..at the very least..even if his investment is not what you wish it was..you will have a clearer idea about where your marriage stands right now today.

Thanks noodle can I ask you a question?
Do I come off as being controlling?
So what you are saying is state my concerns and leave it at that.

I believe he will go and I know that will add negative units to an already overflowing bank account ie: from the extra money I know he will spend to the fact that our anniversary will be marked by another independant issue just at he did on both our birthdays and Valentines day.
When doe's my giving get noticed?

As things worked out the trip wasn't really on his agenda as his other recreational sport had a snag and he was trying to sort out the new equipment and sizing needs and that ran late into the evening.

I did bring up the trip and said, I am leaving the decision up to you, you know where we are financially and where we are with our marriage/family issues.He said, he had his own money and many of the details already worked out with the guys and he believed he knew where I stood on the trip.

That was that, went to bed (separate room) woke up wondering why I want to keep trying. We have a 2 hour meeting with our counselor Thursday, my husband had wanted to discuss separation but the C asked him to give more time as working things out at a distance wasn't the best way to handle things. My feeling is, were long distance even in our home
maybe space would be the best way to find out if we both have the sincere desire to do the work (not just talk the game) to rebuild our marriage.

Any thoughts on that?

((NS))


Sure, y'all have both tried it your way for a while now and obviously it ain't working to well for you because you are in total conflict and in counseling. Y'all best thinking got your marriage to that place. So to me, it makes sense to accept that that thinking is flawed and let the counsellor drive for a while and y'all take directions....

Do you come off as being controlling?

More like passive agressive and a tad laden with disrespectfull judgements. You are assuming that there is a "right" and "wrong" answer to the question..and that your "take" on it is the right one..and if you could only just educate your H to see things clearly..then obviously he would feel the same way. Right?

Thus the questions that aren't really questions.

If he answered the question honestly..how likely would it be that your reaction would look something like ...


...this...

[H] Yes, I think that this is a GREAT way to spend time and money.

[NS] Fine..[slam] I guess you'll just do whatever you want anyway..I should just be used to that by now.

Trouble being..that unless he agreed with you..honesty wasn't SAFE..and you have just implicitly agreed to something that will make you resentfull. So..with those tactics..you are both screwed and sink further into withdrawl.

You *say* that you are leaving the decision up to him..[I get to make my own decisions? Gee, thanks] but that isn't honest..you ARE going to hold it against him if you don't LIKE his decision.

Better to say..I don't agree with this..I will be ANGRY if you do it. THEN drop the rope. This is NO guarantee that he will do as you wish..given the state of intimacy..your wishes probably are NOT a priority for him..which is the REAL key issue.

There are [imo] two reasons to separate..1) safety..if there is an abusive situation..of course you must protect yourself..and 2) preparation to withdraw even futher.

Being apart will not increase your intimacy..it will prepare you to divorce. Be honest with yourself..if that is where you are at..your MC needs to know this..don't sugar coat or give lip service..and then say..well..we just couldn't work things out.

Stop "giving" when it makes you angry. That really isn't a "gift". Do not cave JUST to avoid prolonged conflict..conflict is actually a healthier place than withdrawl.

Allow your wants and needs to "count" and make certain that you are making your expectations crystal clear.

For example..you could say..I feel sad when my birthday isn't a special day for me..this year for my B-day..I want a cake..with fairies on it [hey..they didn't have a unicorn, maybe next year] and a party that includes ...blah blah...be specific.

I would not even support the "in house" separation that you have going..if it is possible..I WOULD move back into the same bedroom and take every opportunity that you can find to build a bridge rather than burn one.

I say this..because you are on a marriage building forum..asking for help and advice in RESTORING the marriage regardless of your current "feelings" about each other. I do believe that the MB plan is one of the best I have ever see with regard to nurturing and protecting the RELATIONSHIP aspect of the marriage EVEN DURING times when you must struggle to work out long term issues that are frustrating for both.

Don't be tickled by the fantasy of divorce..what is in front of you, is what is real. Personally, unless I truly KNEW that I had exhausted every effort..turned over EVERY stone..then I couldn't ever really know what might have been.

Thanks again, I think I am finally starting to understand.

I unfortunately don't have any answers but thought it might help to know that you are not alone. Your situation sounds so so much like mine. I am so frustrated trying to get my husband to spend any time with me or the kids ages 3 and 5. I thought I was marrying a friend and life mate. He is too busy with all his hobbies to be anything to me. If it were not for the kids and being married, I would have given up long ago. All H ever wnats to do is golf 3-4 times a week, do karate 2 times a week, poker at least every weekend. I could go on and on. Being home and watching tv with me is "boring". We no longer enjoy going out on dates together. He says I don't know how good I have it. I know that I am lonely all the time and too young to sit here waiting for him the rest of my life. I feel I am trapped and don't know where to turn. He won't even read marraige building books because he feels I am manipulating him and "pinning him to the wall". I just want to be loved. That's all I want. Just love.