Hi Sorry,

Tough stuff, huh? I will agree with you and all, yes it sucks big time for all involved. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I check in on you two every day but lately feel completely inadequate to offer guidance and really marvel every day at the many longtime posters on this board that take hurting people here under their wings and stick with them through thick and thin for no reason or benefit to them except to help another suffering human being. Wow, it really is remarkable.

I found Nikko's comment about you not being in recovery interesting, and then when I thought about it, realized she is absolutely right, sounds like you "got it" too. It would seem recovery begins when you have remorse and 2 spouses hanging on to the marriage. But the idea of CO still being in triage getting the wounds tended really makes sense.

She is not ready to recover the marriage yet. BUT you are still together and that right now has to be enough for you to continue on YOUR journey of self-discovery and improvement as a person, husband, father. I do believe she is her own worst enemy to recovering her marriage. And you are your own worst enemy. We are all our own worst enemies when it comes to hard changes that we are faced with making within ourselves.

CO has talked about how hard she worked after 1st d-day with really no truthful acknowledgement of what had really happened with the A to recover the M with you. She is tired and she is numb. It may seem to you like it is taking her awhile to get on board with MC and recovery, but she is really battling more here than just your A betrayal...she is battling the betrayal of her time and committment to the M from d-day #1 to d-day #2 which in some ways is probably even harder to grasp and get through.

I do see your honesty in your posts. I do see you working hard and wanting your M to recover. I see the tangible ways you are committing to bettering yourself. I have never looked into passive-agressive behaviors so I don't know much about that, I will trust others knowledge on this subject and let them lead you through it.

In a long-winded way, I just wanted to offer up support to you and Sarah to Press On. Press On for that wonderful woman you are married to, that you miss because she is a crushed shell of who she was, and for those precious girls that need their mommy and daddy to be there for them and love one another. Press On Sorry.

I will be praying for you two tonight,
Glad

ahmen!!!

here's some info--pretty good site....

http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/SUGGESTIONS.html

Good to hear from you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for dropping me your thoughts. I really like to hear from you even if it is you just dropping by to offer some encouragement to keep "pressing on". Thank you for your prayers. I know God hears them.

I quicK went to the site to check it out , but I didn't read it in full yet. I saved it to my favotites folder, I will defenitly check it out...THANKS!

Hey Sorry,

Looks like it was a slow weekend on MB! It was SO beautiful here, hard to think about staying indoors.

I've weighed the info. you've given me, read everything on your thread, read a lot of your wife's thread, and here's my conclusion. IMHO, private threads are no good. You guys are killing your M by listening to the advice of paraprofessionals. I believe you and your W would be better off w/out this forum, at least for a while. You need IC and MC, both from excellent providers. End of story. Radical Honesty, I'm sticking to it.

Have you read Surviving An Affair yet? I highly recommend it, it's my latest Harley book, excellent for both FWS and BS, but I think especially FWS. I thought of you today when I read this:



And yet another:



This, my friend, is why I am strongly encouraging you and your wife to seek the guidance of one of the Harley's at this time. If your wife is unwilling, well, you know where I stand on that. It's been 6 months since your d-day. A BS gives their FWS an average of 6 months to get through withdrawl and the fog, in order to be in a position where they are willing and able to move forward in recovery. Why then, should the FWS be expected to wait an eternity. It's not about who got hurt the worst. It's not about whose more at fault. It's not about the PAST, period. Eventually, BOTH spouses need to move forward in recovery, or one of them is going to give up.

I don't see where others here believe you are not in recovery. If they've read any of Dr. Harley's material, he states over and over that recovery begins as soon as the A has been esposed, and NC has been established. Many people here believe you are trying hard, but doing and saying all the wrong things. I agree. You are busting your a55 to recover in your M, but you're doing it by the seat of your pants. If you believe in the MB principles, then get help from MB therapists. Don't shrug this off and tell me you already have counslers, or that you can't afford it. I get so tired of those excuses. Debt is something that can be repaid, like student loans, your marriage cannot have a price tag placed upon it. I'm not saying the Harley's are the only excellent MC's out there, but frankly, you haven't found the right combination yet, especially if you and your wife are not going to MC together. Counseling by telephone could not be more convenient. At first, I had my doubts about it, but I am telling you, it took ONE session with SH and I knew my M would be saved.

I am telling you all of this on the heels of my worst post d-day experience to date. My H and our kids ran into FOM on Sat. a.m. at a restaurant. My head has been spinning in every direction possible since then. Even so, I still believe in the MB principles, and that my M will survive. I'll post more on this later.

I feel your pain Sorry, you know that. I think you also realize that the pain of a FWS is always going to be much different than that of a BS. You and I get the pleasure of feeling guilt and remorse for the rest of our lives, no matter how our M's end up. FWS's and BS's commit suicide. Does anyone realize what despair one needs to be experiencing in order to kill themselves? Does it really matter who is in the most pain after someone has died from it?! FWS's are responsible for our dirty deed, no doubt. Doesn't matter if we're P/A or bipolar or psychotic. We will carry a burden for the rest of our lives, as will the BS. Granted, there are some pretty crappy FWS's out there who never show remorse or effort toward recovery. I am not talking about them, I'm talking about you and me. We might f-up in our efforts, but so will our BS's. There are BS's out there who are simply never able to find forgiveness. I pray to God this is not what you are facing. I pray you still have a chance at saving your M.

I've said too much already, and need to get to bed. Because of our similar sitch's, I can't help but respond to your posts. I no longer care about getting 2x4'd by BS's. My goal is to help myself and my M, by helping others. I believe that's what this forum is all about. If all you are doing is giving advice, then become a therapist. Some of us are still seeking answers.

God bless,

KJ

I just read your post. I really don't have much time to write so I just wanted to drop you a line and say... Thanks ! It is nice to hear advise or direction from someone who is in the FWS position. You experience some of the same hurdles I do so hopefully we can help each other out and get our M back on track to show our BS's how sorry we are and that we want nothing more than to spend the rest of our lives showing them our appreciation for giving us this chance to love them again.


PS- Nikko I still have not had the time to read that web page about PA personalities but I will tonight even if I have to stay up and lose some precious sleep!

that web page really is for people dealing with a PA....you may not like what you read. lol i posted it for the others who didnt know to much about pa....just google it.

LOL... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That site actually made me smile and laugh. It was me they were talking about! It is unbelievable how my PA was not pointed out to me earlier in life. I know I am PA. This has been a tough year for me. I am finding out so much about myself and my faults that the other night I was in the bed crying because I have so many hurdles in front of me that I don't know which one to start with. I apologized to my wife for all the baggage I have been carrying with me all these years that is now all unraveling before her and putting her in a place she never thought she would be. I asked her to stick with me because I want to get help. I told her I am so sorry for everything! I am starting to realize alot about my childhood that I have been trying to bury but have to deal with. My father was a drug addict(clean now for over 20yrs) and in jail most my younger years. My uncles were all alcoholics. My brother is currently a alcoholic and did steroids when I was young which made him very aggressive and have a bad attitude toward me. We had a few tough years getting along when I was young. My mom never showed me much affection. She did buy me a lot of toys though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I guess it was her way of helping me cope with things. I can't remember her ever telling me she loved me. I am sure she did but I don't remember because I guess it wasn't many times. My mom has always been mean to my dad ever since he had his addictions/prison years ago when I was a child. I think she only stayed with him for us kids(me and 2 older brothers). I can remember my parents fighting but I can not remember them making up. I know they would but I never saw it. I have a lot of issues that I am realizing I need to deal with tomorrow at my IC. I need help with my marriage, Selfishness, PA , my child hood , infidelity , being a better Christian and finding out exactly who I am and what is priority because I don't have a clue where to start and it is so depressing and draining trying to do them all at the same time because I feel like I will be getting better at one thing but them I start to lose at another and so I work on that and something else starts to drop. I am hoping the IC will prioritize my needs so I can get to where I need to be! I have really been depressed lately. I haven't tried to let is show to my W because I don't want her to worry about my needs when she has a full plate of her own. I feel like all my bad traits have been laid out in front of me and I am just looking at them and thinking ..."which one is the foundation, which one do I start with first" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

i think your doing really well. one step at a time. your counselour will guide you....and its good to ask the counselor...."ok, you know all my issues....which do we start with and whats your plan of action?" if the counselor is vague...i would be concerned......lol. a good counselor will always have a plan....

just my humble opinion....but i think you need to deal with the root of WHY you are the way you are....pa, selfish tendancies, conflict avoider.....then i would work to change those things.....your CORE behaviors. the behaviors that come out in a crisis.....changing the core behaviors is key to me. while you are doing that you have to also work to meet your wife's en's. she will be patient as long as she see's you working and making strides towards a goal.

one step at a time......and when you find yourself in he//.........keep walking!

ok, i dont normally do this but....tell me about sunday night...your version and see if you can find YOUR pa tendancies in the situation.....:)

Sorry,

Yet another thing we have in common (did I already tell you that?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />)

There's another thread in Recovery you might be interested in. Can't remember the exact thread title, but you'll see it 'cuz it asks about P/A experiences.

Our childhood isn't terribly similar except for one important part. Your mother didn't express much in the way of love to you. Read my post in Recovery, let me know what you think.

Take care,

KJ

Sorry, I think this was one of your first really raw and vulnerable posts. You are really starting to get somewhere now!

I hope that your IC is excellent at what she does, because with you being ripe for change and guidance it would be sad if she didn't know what she was doing!

I really think sometimes when the "scales" fall from our eyes it can feel worse because we really face ourselves with truth, but that is the moment that change really comes. This happened to my H and he has literally become a new man and it has been awesome to watch and be a part of.

If you find yourself getting depressed, don't hesitate to get on an anti-d so you are able to continue strongly in your efforts.

Hang in there and keep up the good work.
Blessings
Glad

I asked my W to go to church with me and then out to eat afterward. She said o-kay. Well later that day she decided she didn't want to go but did want to be with me. I still wanted to go but wanted to be with her. So rather than get upset and be selfish about what I wanted and what she agreed to, I told her that she could stay home and I would go alone and after wards we could meet up and still go out to diner and be together. I really wanted her to go to church with me but I didn't make any fuss about it. I figured with my second plan we would both be getting what we wanted. Well church went over the time and there was so much going on that I didn't feel it was appropriate to walk out at that particular moment so I stayed a bit longer and when we were given a chance to leave or stay for more fellowship I opted to leave because I knew I was already late for my dinner with the W. I was also anxious to tell her how exciting the service was during our dinner. Well when I got out to my car there were three missed calls on the cell phone. I didn't think she was upset because we still had time to go to dinner. Well I called her to tell her I was on my way she snapped at me and started telling me how I don't get it and that I never will. She said she sat and waited all night for me and I chose to "not be with her as usual". I said are you actually mad at me for going to church? She said yes. We had a date planned and you chose to stay there. I could have easily said well we had church planned but you chose to stay home! But I didn't because that would have been pointless and I didn't feel like fighting after I just got out of a great service. Anyways she said if it were her she would have left church early to be with me. I got angry because I have went to church to try to get a grip on my life and how I look at things and there she is mad at me for trying to figure out how I can be a better Christian(husband/father). I would think she would be happy that I am looking in every area to try to get my life back in order, It was not like I was out with friends or just somewhere having fun and putting her off. Well I text her a message and told her -God is first in my life and sorry I was late. When I got home (before her)I waited for her to come inside the door and the first words out of my mouth were "I am sorry for being late, church ran over and I couldn't just walk out because I was participating and getting prayer at the front of the church." She then walks right past me with her attitude and says of course you were getting prayer...it's always about you! "I am sorry but if I was ...(ow name) you would have done everything you could to be with her but me...NO!" Then she went on for about twenty minutes yelling at me for all the things I did for the OW and how I don't care about her. How I spent a weekend with a ****** but I can't spend a evening with her. How quickly she forgets I invited her to go with to church and dinner. She is the one that chose not to be with me at church and because it ran over that was my fault <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. It isn't like church was over and I was hanging out talking with friends! By this time our daughter is crying and telling us to stop fighting . I picked my daughter up and told her I loved her and that I was not gonna say another word. Well I held her as she was crying and kept my mouth shut . Meanwhile my W is still yelling at me and telling me I am trying to put a guilt trip on her by telling my daughter that I would not fight so it makes my W look like the bad one. Then she went on to tell me this is just another one of my PA moments and I need to stop being that way. Well all she did was yell the whole time. I tried to explain the way things happened at church and that I didn't purposely stay late and disregard out dinner. I actually thought we could have still did the dinner thing. There was still time for it but she was too angry at me to even try to make the evening work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Well I don't see any. Imagine that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I could have chose to stay when we were given the option but I didn't because I knew we had a diner planned and I was already late. I didn't try to put the blame of the fight on her or make her the problem, I was up front about being late and apologized. I surprised her the next day at work with lunch and sat in her office and ate together. I told her again I was sorry about church running late and I was waiting for an appropriate time to excuse myself from the service. I brought her lunch to make up for the dinner we missed out on because of the whole fight and that I love her very much and if she could only take the time to hear me out or talk to me and tell me how she feels during times when she is upset I think a lot of the fights could be avoided but she is always judging me when ever she does not get her way and gets angry. My IC session today told me that she is not used to me being assertive and verbally expressing what I want. This is all new to her and as I continue to work thru my passive side and prevent the aggressive actions from taking place I will need to continue to be open and assertive with her and let her know that I have opinions too. This is new to her because in the past I just did what my W wanted to do and never disagreed, I was more of a "whatever" person. In the past I would not have gone to church that evening. But I was assertive and went but at the same time I worked out a solution that please us both so I would not be selfish. My IC thinks I am on the right track. She said I just need to be more sensitive when I am being assertive so I don't come off as selfish or demanding. She said I have the right idea but I need to be polite when I give my opinions and be sensitive to what my W wants without always surrendering what I want. She said it will be a while till my W sees this change being made and it is for the best. I shouldn't be passive because If I am always avoiding conflicts or confrontations and not allowing my self to get what I want the cycle will just go all the way back around and it will lead to another A where as soon as I have someone who actually wants to hear what I have to say and lets me express myself I will be drawn to it. She said right now my M is like a see-saw when one person is sitting closer to the middle than the person across from them. That is me making the changes on my side and it is hard for my W to see the changes because of the pain and the H she is used to in the past, so she figures the imbalance on the see-saw if totally from the A but she thinks a lot of it has to do with me attempting to better myself and throwing my W off because of the old person she was used too in changing. But in the end she will see that when she comes a little closer on the see-saw the marriage will be balance again and this time it will be because we are closer to each other and not balance because we are both as equally away from one another.

I hope I came off with my writting o-kay. I am not trying to boast about what I am doing. I am just letting you know about me...and the direction I am heading. Next week my IC want to talk with me about co-dependency. She thinks we need spend some time on that.


So where do you feel I was in the wrong with Sunday night? Where do you think I did o-kay? Just want to know what I should continue doing and what I should work on.

Next time she is angry with you about something try to tell her that you did not realize that she will feel that way and that you will try to prevent it in the future. My husband changed so much that I feel like I am walking on the mine field now when he is nearly perfect. It is so unusual. I also feel that I waisted so many years. She may feel that way too. Remind her about all of the good time you had together. You may have to do it over and over again for very long time. So what? It worth it I hope.

I forgot to say that I send my H this link about PA disorder. BTW he is a psychiatrist. He said he never thought that way of himself. He also said that many personality disorders could diminish with age. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

i think the comprimise you two came to about church and the date was a great idea. you did good.

you went south however imho here.......


"Well church went over the time and there was so much going on that I didn't feel it was appropriate to walk out at that particular moment so I stayed a bit longer and when we were given a chance to leave or stay for more fellowship I opted to leave because I knew I was already late for my dinner with the W."


ok...you knew during the service it was running over....but you didnt call her. im not saying walk out...but you should have called and told her it was running late. she will take this extremely hard.....she wasnt important enough for a phone call???? (sound familiar?? LOL) she was looking foward to that date...that is huge....and then all of a sudden something was more important.....and please dont give me the god and church sermon....she is trying to build trust in your word....if you say something...YOU BETTTER MEAN IT AND FOLLOW THROUGH! simple....it is about your word meaning something and her being important. she is trying to regain the feeling of being "wanted and special". putting anything, right now in front of that is gonna do damage. and again, i did not say walk out, i did not say forsake god...i said find a balance. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> if you say your gonna do something or be somewhere at a certain time...then do it or call to at least let her know you are conscious of it and how she feels matters.

ok---she was wrong for going into attack mode and im working on that also.....both of your behaviors will take time to change.....but it went south when you didnt call her. simple respect.kwim??

your pa tendancies came out in not taking full responsibility for it and then using the church and god and you bettering yourself to make her feel guilty.

you apologized right away....you knew while you were sitting there it was running late....you chose to stay(and i get why) but when push came to shove you went into excuse mode. you simply screwed up and instead of standing behind your apology and letting her blow off the steam...you went into pa mode and tried to find excuses and justification.

and again let me state she shouldnt have attacked you....but her frustration is boiling. she trusted you to make that date a priority and you simply blew it...lol, typical guy...lol

the rest of it...lunch and all i think were great. did you guys discuss this situation and if it happens again...you being hung up or late...what your plan is??? that is key....have a plan and make her and your marriage a priority. do it together....

Sorry A55,

Yo! Where you at bro'?! Whassup in your world?! Guess this is my way of bumping your thread so I don't have to go back so far to find it!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good night!!

KJ

Hey <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I am not doing too good. My W really tore me up last night. She is talking D again. I hope it's just another dip in the coaster because I love her and I love my family and I don't wanna lose them. I was an idiot for what I did. I now I may end up losing everything because of it and that sucks because I want to give my W the world. I really messed up but I have learned so much about myself thru this . Rather than sit and dwell on what I did I am gonna take a lot of lessons learned with me. I am and will be a better H , I just hope it's to my current W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> Sorry but I am not really up to writing or talking about things right now so I am gonna get going and try to distract myself from my world that seem to be crumbling down around me. I will stop by to check out the posts but I can't promise I will reply right away so don't be offended anyone.