My story (like so many others):

I've known her most of my life. Our romantic relationship started as a long distance relationship. While she was in grad school we'd get to see each other for a couple weekends each month. Our opportunity to be closer to each other finally came, but she didn't want to live together unless we were married. Under other circumstances I might have been more reluctant, but I'd known her forever and knew she was the one.

A year or so into the marriage she complained that she didn't always get enough attention, it wasn't like when we were dating. I brushed her off with "What did you expect. We're married. We're going to have our ups and downs. Did you really expect this would be as intense as it was when we were seeing each other for only a few days each month?"

We've now been married for 10 years and have three beautiful children. The ups and downs have continued. We've actually gone to a couple marriage counselors, but I always attributed her desire for counseling as her simply requiring too much attention. And frankly the councelors we saw didn't do anything to help convince me otherwise. One actually told her she needed to find a hobby.

She now tells me that she no longer feels romantic love for me and wants to divorce. I am despondent. I've pored over this site for the last 3 weeks and have finally become enlightened with the concept of EN's. Unfortunately, I fear that it's too late.

She informed me of her EA about 6 months ago. Denies a PA other than hugging/kissing. Says she feels emotionally connected to him. I was enraged. Agreed with her that we needed counseling, but made the mistake of telling her to go by herself initally to figure out what she wanted. I asked myself, "How could she choose anything but keeping our family together?" Could I have been more arrogant?

For a while counseling seemed to be working. She appeared to be sorry, trying to make things work. I was doing my best to meet her EN's even though I still had no real concept of what EN's were.

About 3 months ago things took a turn for the worse. She came home from counseling one night and said she wanted a separation. She proposed a nesting arrangement whereby our children would stay in the house and we would alternate nights at an apartment. I simply viewed this as her attempt to get more time with the OM. I said it wasn't an option.

Fast forward to three weeks ago. She asks for a divorce. I can't understand how things have spiraled out of control so quickly. Or maybe it hasn't really been that quick. I see now that it's been a gradual process, why hadn't I found this site years ago. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered. Maybe this was the wake up call I needed.

She's still pressing hard for a separation and I simply can't let go. I love her too much and can't imagine splitting up our family. I find myself constantly turning to this site to find hope that we can somehow make it through this. I've tried everything I can to let her know how much she means to me and that I can change to meet her needs. I've been doing the little things for her that I had gradually stopped doing. But, she's too far withdrawn right now for me to make many deposits in her LB. Should I let her go and hope she finds her way back? Hope has never seemed like a good plan. Does anyone have advice as I can barely plan the next 1/2 hour...

"Should I let her go?"

you cannot release her from her vows any more than you can force her to honor her vows

you control you

if you decide you want to honor YOUR vows ... make that your priority

it is possible to attract your wife back to you & the marriage by implimenting the tools of Plan A and the other good marriage skills detailed by the Harley's in their books and on this site

what do you want to do?

Pep

I started reading HNHN last night and am eagerly awaiting Surviving an A. There is no question in my mind that this is my priority.

However, she has stated that she no longer has any energy left to put into the marriage. She cut off communication with OM for a while, but has since re-connected. She has been spending much time trying to find alternative living arrangements. She shows no interest in negotiating a Plan A.

Call the Harleys and set up a phone councilling session with them. Purchase and read "Surviving an Affair". Learn about the dynamics of a marriage in trouble, and how to combat the impact of infidelity on your marriage.

Pay particular attention to Plan A. Evaluate those things about you that weren't or aren't good for your relationship, especially in the way of Love Busters (LB's). Set forth to make positive changes in those things.

There are a host of other things to do, but start with this. The most important pieces of the puzzle are keeping your thoughts positive and having FAITH in your efforts.

Stick around and continue posting, as you'll receive a lot of valuable advice, mostly based on MB principles. This is a philosophy that has as much success as any.

Best wishes,
SD

I suggest you not attempt to stop her from doing anything.

If she chooses to separate, you state you believe that can't help to repair the marriage, and then see what she does. You, however, do not leave your home. None of this "nesting" crap.

If she wants to separate, fine. She is free to do so. You and the kids stay put. If this comes to pass, ask here for advice about how to protect yourself.

So, what do you know about the OM?

Plan A is for you. Not a Plan you 2 implement together. All this takes a long time, so take a deep breath and hang on for the ride.

Every word your W is speaking right now is right out of the WS handbook. They are all "programmed" to say the same things, and act pretty much the same way.

Don't try to coach her, teach her or influence her with words. Words to a WS are like throwing cotton balls at a crocodile. Actions are all that work, and they work ever so slowly. Agonizingly slow. So hunker down, become educated, think positively, and go to work.

SD

All,

Thank you for listening and providing encouragement. I'm so thankful to live at a time when it's possible to communicate with so many who are experiencing similar issues.

Regarding the OM. Used to be a mutual friend. When the A was first exposed I was very naive, even in denial. He actually called to apologize and offered to talk about it if I wanted to. My response was simply that I wanted to work on my relationship with my wife and didn't have time or energy to deal with him. Unfortunately, this worked very much against me. As he continued speaking with my wife he communicated that I hadn't been more chivalrous leaving her wondering if I really cared. He's now in the process of leaving his wife and young child. I think my wife views this as an act of strength. Of course had the affection not been showered on her she would simply view him as a loser.

SD - thank you for keeping some perspective. I consider myself to be a very patient person, but when your world is crumbling down all around you it's incredibly painful to feel that no progress is being made.

With regards to separation, I have told her that she is free to leave and that I'll stay in the house with the children. She is a wonderful mother and of course quickly refused...

Does OM's wife know all?

Does your wife's family know about the affair?

Read the exposure link in my sig line below.

Yes it has been fully exposed. Interestingly enough we took a family vacation to the inlaws house a week ago. I was initially reluctant to go because I felt it would be very uncomfortable for all. In the end I did go. It was a long trip and I knew it would be difficult for my wife to get there with the kids on her own. I also knew it would present an opportunity for us to get some quality time alone.

What I didn't expect was the support I received from my inlaws. They basically told her she was being incredibly selfish and was on the verge of ruining the lives of everyone involved. While the support was nice, I'm not sure it helped since my wife felt like everyone was ganging up on her. In her eyes I am now the cause of a temporarily soured relationship with her parents.

Can you say "blame shifting"? Her accusation is right from the WS script. Ignore it. But if she harps on it, simply explain that you were doing what needed to be done to attempt to save the family. "Your parents will forgive you once we get straightened out."

You are a lucky man to have the support on the in-laws. This is, unfortunately, quite rare.

Follow up on this with them by thanking them for their support and by reiterating your goal of keeping the family intact. Send them a copy of SAA. Demonstrate your conviction.

And OM's wife knows all? If so, how do you know this?

WAT

How do you know if she's too far gone?

Yesterday she called me at work. Started crying and said she needed space. We talked about having me take the kids away next weekend so that she can have time alone. I'm still very concerned that she simply wants more free time with OM. Obviously I can't stop her from seeing him if that's what she really wants so going away with the kids might not be a bad idea.

When I got home after work we talked a little more. Our emotions are always all over the place whenever we approach the subject of us. I told her I had started reading HNHN and asked if she might be interested since I thought it might help explain to her how we've reached our current situation. I told her everything I've been learning from MB has been very positive and has really helped me to cope for the last few weeks. She reluctantly said she would read the book, but asked if I've seen anything on the MB site that discusses the fact that our marriage may be too far gone. With that she stormed off.

A few minutes later she was back and we changed the subject to less emotional matters. The rest of the evening was fine and we were able to have light, cordial conversations. Conversation is one of the EN's I was not good at with my wife. I like to try to have light conversation with her often to show her that I can meet this need. I think she enjoys the light conversation as well, but I get the feeling that for her this is a way to remain on friendly terms so that we can split amicably.

So back to my original question, what are the signs of a marriage too far gone? Clearly not everyone who applies the MB principles can save their marriage when EN’s have gone unmet for such a long period. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. I am nowhere near ready to give up, but must face the fact that I might not have any say in the matter.

Have you informed the OM's wife of the affair?

They all say things are "too far gone". Ignore it. Also I would not watch the kids while she trots off for a weekend with the OM.

i was in your shoes a few yrs ago...ill let you know up front...my M did not survive, but that being said, ill add this...

everything that has been posted to you is RIGHT ON THE MONEY!! just take a step back and dont forget to breathe....

when someone you love comes to you with complaints or concerns about "losing that loving feeling" before an A...THATS important, and you better pay heed.....

when the WS comes after the A has started and blames you for things and blames you for not meeting EN's....pay less attention to the words they speak...its alot of Bull S**t!

if you KNOW things you can do better and should address some personal behavior issues...DO THEM...WORK on them...

heres the point im trying to make...if she says "its too little, too late" or "i love you but im not in love with you"....look at as all "BS"....a person with healthy self esteem (most all WS have poor self esteem) in my opinion, thats why they give into the weakness of infidelity...

like your comment..."she would look at him like a loser......"

a "normal" person would say "well, i dont know how long he can keep this up, but i like the changes" etc....not "too little too late"....it all crap!!

sooooo.....dont beat yourself up and dont take too much blame....you have a long way to go still...

people here have some tremendous insight and advice, just listen to it, even when you think "thats crazy" or "it wont work"....you caught in an 'illogical" situation....throw "logic" out the window from here on out....when dealing with your wife.....

the nesting idea.....laugh at it next time she throws it out....talk about illogical!!!

hang in there

Hi FinallyAwake,

I've read your story and I really feel for you. It wasn't long ago when I felt the exact same way as you. So many things going through your head, you want to find answers to all of them as quickly as possible. It doesn't work that way, but as time passes the answers will come. When I found out about my wife's A I new one thing, I wasn't going to be the one to talk to her about where she was at emotionally. I turned to this site to find answers. I also quickly realized that if there was anybody who could talk to her it would be a FWW. (former wayward wife). She agreed to talk to people on this forum and I believe it is the one thing that helped us more than anything. (Counseling with S. Harley is equally important) Do you think she would agree to talk with people on this site? I beleive my wife would be more than willing to talk with her. I will stay tuned into this thread. Keep your chin up.

HeadSouth

Thank you all for the continued support.

Tonight was actually a pretty good night. We had a nice dinner together and shared a couple bottles of wine. Unfortunately a little alcohol makes you feel like things are going better than they actually are. But, we were able to have a lot of good conversation. I keep wishing I could start showing her affection (the other EN that I wasn't very good at) but realize it will take time. She sounded a little more interested in reading HNHN which makes me feel good.

HS - thank you for the offer to talk with your wife, I will keep it in mind. Right now I'm simply trying to take things slow. She's still very much withdrawn and it takes everything I have not to push anything onto her too quickly.

She did make a comment regarding the fact that I gravitate to this site for hope, made it sound cult like. But, hope is all I have right now so I will not apologize for finding strength here.

Thank you all again for listening and providing support.

FA

She called me at work today, upset, telling me how desperately she needs space. She tells me she feels frustrated that I am stalling on moving forward with a separation. I let her know that I will not be helping with an apartment search if that's what she's expecting.

She also says she feels frustrated by the fact that she sees that I'm trying to make personal changes to address my shortcomings in our relationship. She feels that she has been telling me for years what her needs are, but that I've been unresponsive. There is certainly some truth to that so I do not try to defend my past actions. She says that she doesn't trust that I can make long term changes to my behavioral patterns. This isn't worth arguing. Actions speak louder than words so I simply continue to try to improve on the EN's that I wasn't meeting. This is an extemely difficult process. I realize it's taken her a long time to reach her current state of mind. She's not willing to let me meet some of her EN's at this point. How can I continue to show subtle changes without making her think that I am simply looking for a quick fix to our marital problems. I could back way off and give her the space she seeks, but fear this will only make it to easier for her to continue into divorce proceedings. Any suggestions?

Hey FA,

You have three kids. My wife has told me that this is where her recovery started. When she realized how the situation was going to impact the kids. Is she willing to try just for the kids. Eventually you need to come into the fold, but start with the kids. It may give you the time needed to make adjustments to yourself and for her to realize that having an EA is a terrible way of handling marital problems. Would you be willing to talk to Steve Harley, the two of you together. Setup an appointment. It is well worth the money. What is your marriage worth???

HS

P.S. My offer still stands when she's ready.

HS,

She claims to have thought extensively about the impact on the kids, but feels she has no option other than to split. One EN that we both met with flying colors is family commitment - maybe to a fault. She has felt that I give love to the children with such ease, but I haven't provided the same for her. She has commented in the past that if she had to, she could continue to live like this for the next 18 years because we have such a wonderful family life. Yet, she has become more adamant about getting separated.

With regards to the EA, I really don't believe much is happening at this time. I know she is still in contact with him from time to time, but I think it's mainly because he is one of the few people who are currently supporting her with her decision. I believe she knows that he is not the answer to our problems. As I mentioned previously her parents would very much like to see us work things out. I believe most of her friends feel the same. She actually commented the other night that she "better get used to doing this alone".

Yes, I am more than willing to talk with SH, but I don't think she will right now. She sometimes gets upset when I talk about what I've been reading in HNHN. She believes too much damage has been done and "some book isn't going to solve the problem".

She had been doing IC with a local counselor. Unfortunately, the message she was getting was to think only about yourself and what you want, everything else will just fall into place.

FA

A huge number of councelors are quacks. Sounds like she got one of them. Suggestion, set up a phone session with the Harleys, then inform her of the time and date, invite her to participate without ANY pressure, and when the time comes, go through with the appointment, whether she's a part of it or not.

Everything she says is "fog-babble". All stemming from the fact she's A) given up on the marriage, B)still in contact with the OM, C)convinced he is her soulmate (gag) and, her desire to seperate from you is to make it easier for her to spend more time (without guilt) with the OM.

This is all from the WS handbook.

Remember, while she's in the fog anything you say to her that is contrary to the fantasy she's living, will be perceived by her as teaching, educating, preaching, interfering, invading her privacy and smothering her. Period.

You can't change her. You can only change you. You are in the early, early stages of a long process, and you need to come to terms that you will need to be in the process of perfecting Plan A for the next 3-6 months...or as long as your Love Bank doesn't run dry.

Learn to return "fog-babble" back to her. Simple, logical remarks, said without emotion or Love Busters, giving her a chance to evaluate her own words. Do a search here in the forums for fog babble and you'll get a better idea what I'm suggesting.

Don't hang on every word she says, or it'll drive you nuts. Remember, if she wants to leave, she can, and will, but in most cases, they want the best of two worlds, and won't take the first step. Therefore, don't move out. On the other hand, don't encourage her to go, but let her know you know you can't stop her, even though you'd like to, because you BELIEVE the marriage can be fixed.

Don't push MB on her, as that's just another way you are trying to "manipulate" her. You "might" purchase a copy of "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass and leave it lying around through <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hang in there!
SD

FA,

Shattered Dreams has got it right. Not sure if you've heard of the fog or not, but it is real and it is completely illogical. I think you are underestimating the EA. He's obviously feeding her information to support the fantasy. Somehow, and people here will know better than me, you will need to get her away from OM. Complete and total NO CONTACT. I like SD's idea on setting up an appointment and offering her to participate. If she doesn't show you will still get a ton of very good information from Steve on how to proceed. In the mean time keep your chin up. Don't beat yourself up. I know it's hard to do. I'm into this for 8 weeks and am just now getting past the point of feeling responsible for the whole mess. You're doing things right.

HS