Thanks 19.

I'm ready to expose now and I need some help figuring out who to expose to, what to say to those I'm exposing to and what to say to my WW when she asks.

thx

I've got Tough Love on order and I'm working on toughening up in this R today. I do want to make a strong attempt to save our family.

I'm still unclear as to what exactly Plan A is. I've looked around and not seem much in the way of detail. I've asked a couple times and not received much in the way of response. Why is that?

Can someone break it down for me? Or send me a link? Or something? I'm floundering. Horribly.

MDC - I know Plan A is discussed in the book "Surviving an Affair" - do you have that?

I don't know where Plan A is discussed on this site, but hopefully someone else can say -

Also, look on the "Just Found Out" board and on the first page is a post by Pepperband that is all about Plan A - it's called something like "The Carrot and Stick of Plan A"

See if that gets it. If not, get the book - which you should probably do anyway.

A lot of people on here know a lot more than me about exposure. I would start with OMW (if there is one). Just tell her everything you know. Do not tell W you are going to do it and do not give OMW time to think about it before you do it - i.e. don't set up a meeting or something like that. OM and W will try to paint you as a jealous nutty husband if you give them the chance. It needs to be a surprise.

That is about all I know - which, I know is not much. You might consider changing the name of your thread to include the word "Expose" or "Exposure". I think that could get more attention maybe?

OK. I've got the book. And I'l look at the link.

Re: Exposure - the OMW knows and served DV papers on 3/29. I've talked to her & other than her telling me he's scum she's not much help.

How do you change the thread name?

I'm definitely ready to expose - want to do it in the right way to the right people, etc. Have a lot of questions & I really don't want to do anything until I hear from the people on the board. I've finally come to accept their wisdom as truth.

Thanks for replying 19. Following your thread - my heart goes out to you and your family.

Not sure how to change name - try going to the very first post and then click "Edit" - and then change it. See if it works.

Alternatively, start a new thread with a new name and in the first post describe your situation in detail and then ask your questions - that may be a better idea anyway.

Does your W's parents know about this?

i'll probably do that. Since I kind of feel like I'm ready to attack this fresh anway.

My W's father is dead. Her mother knows but I've asked her to hold off on contacting my W...

Like I said I want to get some feedback on how to expose, who to expose to, be ready with a comeback to the babble I'm going to get from my wife.

What did you say to your wife when she found out you talked to OMW? What was your babble comeback? If I say - "I'm trying to get outside help in an effort to save our marriage" she'll say "Well why are you trying to save it NOW. Where have you been the past 2 years?"

I need to be ready. For myself more than anything.

MDC, you expose to anyone who can reasonably be expected to put pressure on the affair. A short list might include the Human Resources Director for the company, her parents and siblings, your family, friends, officers and members of professional associations your wife belongs to, etc. As to what to say, you tell the individual you are exposing to that you've discovered your wife is having another affair. You don't give specifics on how, or precisely what you've found out though you usually have to reveal enough information to be convincing.

Here is a link to Dr. Harley's opinion on who to expose to:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...=&PHPSESSID

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Here is a link started by WAT entitled "Affair Exposure 101:"

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rt=all&vc=1


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Here is a link to information on this website about Plans A and B.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html


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MDC, you need to study the information in Surviving An Affair, by Dr. Willard Harley. It's the text upon which all of the MB principles are derived from and it’s available from the MB bookstore. Read the links while you wait for delivery. The information on this site will give you insight, but you need to go through the book very thoroughly so you can work with Steve Harley to formulate a plan to recover your marriage. Keep scheduling appointments with SH. He will work with you to set up a detailed and customized recovery plan with you.

It appears you're finally willing to start doing the things you need to do to repair this broken marriage, MDC. Congratulations. You have a lot to do, but others have done it and come out the other end with their marriages intact and better than they were before. There are no guarantees, but you can do what they did. Folks here on MB come to the forums to help you through what they have already faced. Take advantage of their advice, okay? Now get to work.

So far I have said I did it for 2 reasons: (a) to help end the A and ensure it's over so we can work on our M, and (b) the OMW deserves to know what the OM is up to.

Obviously, (b) doesn't work for you.

While I am not sure it's the best thing to say, when my W makes the "2 year" comment (which is 15 years in my case) I usually same something like "Look, I didn't appreciate the situation. I know I have not acted perfectly, but I am trying to change and I have change. I can't change the past and I am sorry for the past. All I can do is change the future which is what I am doing" - or something like that.

I also don't take her crap at all. I try not to LB, but I am not going to be a doormat. I am not clingy and I call her on any BS she decides to spew out. That's "Tough Love" sort of - I guess.

But again, I am no expert.

Thanks Lonhorn. Hook 'em.

SA arrived just as I was leaving with the kids for a week with my parents. I left it for her & asked her to read it. Doubt she has. Is SA for the WS?

I've had one session with SH and I thought I could get WS to do one by herself. Now I'm not sure I can get her to go to ANY counseling. Even to the counselor she likes to has been telling me it's my fault through 3 sessions - no pressure on her.

Doesn't sound like it's a big deal if she won't go to MC since nothing can happen until the A has ended.

So I'll talk to SH next week - they're out this week - and get a detailed plan. Should I wait to expose until I speak with him??

Thanks again. I AM willilng to do the difficult things required to repair this broken M. I feel like I'm moving to a place where I'm able to see the situation more clinically and less emotionally. My struggle will be in keeping enough of myself through this process to maintain sanity AND show myself to be the husband that I want - and she wants - me to be. My question about Plan A has always been "How much to give?"

Thanks again. I'm going to stay close to this board as I go thru this...

SAA is for both of you, MDC, but it will be particularly useful to you right now. Your wife is unlikely to read it now. She's probably not ready for much introspection at this moment.

MDC,

I am a FWW. Just read quickly through your thread. Others have said things to you here, that I might end up repeating. Maybe it'll have a different twist coming from a FWW.

Your wife is most definitely, 100%, in her A. I am so scared for you right now because you are leaving her alone. I gotta be honest, when I was where she is, I would have been counting the minutes to your departure, so I could run to my OM. No H to pester her, no kids to be responsible for, it's way to [email]d@mn[/email] tempting. I'm sure you've given this thought, I don't mean to patronize you, but if I were a bettin' gal, I'd put my $ on her. Now, how will you handle things if she does have contact? Better have a plan man, and a good one.

You guys have SUCH a long way to go in your recovery. This is selfish of me to say, but I'm so glad not to be youe wife right now! I think back to when I was just like her, only 2 months ago, and man does it scare me. She'll get there too, I have confidence for one main reason, and that is the fact you are receiving help from the master himself, SH. He is a miracle worker. If you could just get your W to talk to him, just once, she'd begin making progress. My H and I have spoken to SH every week since our d-day. I know for a fact we couldn't be making such progress without him. His father's books are priceless, but actually talking with Steve is beyond therapy. We had a couple really bad MC experiences before finding this website. I truely believe an MC can make or break a M, and her IC sounds horrible to me. If she's not made accountable for her actions, she'll continue to blame you for everything. As others have told you, the A was not your fault. You weakened your M by not meeting her EN's (and she most likely did the same), and probably threw some LB's in there too. Still, this is not why she had either of her A's. She's got a horrible weakness, it's called being an addict. She hasn't received the help she needs to protect this weakness of hers. This is why she had her A's, she did not protect her weakness. She has other weaknesses too, but I don't know her, so can't tell you what they are. If Steve hasn't talked to you yet about protecting weaknesses,he will.

Have you heard people talk about "the fog," or "fog talk?" That is most definitely what your W is in. Withdrawl from the OM is killing her right now. She is in no shape to attempt to participate in the recovery of your M. Something has got to shake her, wake her up to reality. Exposure is certainly one option (but I would talk to Steve about this first), but there are others. The effectiveness of your approach is all up to you. What worked for me, was when a poster here reamed me out for what I would be putting my kids through. He gave me horrible (geeze, I've used that word like 3 times now!) examples of how children rarely ever get to like the OM. His kids would not even go to his WW's house because she lived with OM. If your W is as dedicated to her children as I am, go ahead, hit her where it counts.

What about this job of hers? When is she done? Can we speed that up? True NC is no contact, nothing, notta, zip, zero, and it is an ABSOLUTE MUST before recovery can even begin to progress.

Man, this post has become a trigger for me, so I'm going to end it now. You've got your work cut out for ya fella.

All my best,

KJ

KJ -

Thanks for the post. There is a lot that's happened since I posted last. The trip was excruciating for me. Came home early partly because I couldn't take it anymore and partly because my WW had a medical emergency. She has lot of medical emergencies.

WW wants to spend a month at her mother's house with the kids. She's acknowledged that she needs to quit her job for us to have any chance together. Didn't think she would follow thru but she put in her notice yesterday. Her VP - 2 levels up - asked if she would consider taking a leave of absence then come back to the job when she returns. There are a lot of things she likes about the job and there are some things she does not. VP vowed to remove all the 'bad' aspects of the job if she would return.

Very attractive to WW because she really doesn't want to leave. She told me the only drawback to that was that she would still be working at the same place as OM. I told her we'd work through that once she got back from her mother's.

My plan now is to ask her not to go back to the job but I don't want to do it now because I don't want to do anything that would threaten the trip to her mom's. In the last A it was her mom that got her to really see how immature she was being. The problem is that I didn't sieze the opportunity to finish reparing the damage. I just settled with the fact that she returned to the marriage. Didn't do anything to fix myself. Not this time.

This trip looks like a good idea to me because her mother is the only one that can reach her. And her M is VERY against the affair and very PRO marriage. I've talked to her M at length about what's been going on. W doesn't know that I've spoken with her M.

W read "part of" SA and said that she'd write "one of those letters" telling OM they can't be friends anymore. Said she'd write it this week. She spoke to OM on phone yesterday. I put a recorder in the car and caught part of the conversation. Couldn't hear much because of road noise but it was clear that they were boyfriend/girlfriend. There was even a lover's quarrel - she sounded JUST like she does when she fights with me!

Apparently quiting the job was a surprise to him. Which calms my fears about her leaving being a plan that they cooked up to somehow be together. BTW her mother is 1200 miles away.

I've changed recently. Not been pushing her or feeling needy and panicked. I feel like I've found some patience. Below is a snip from another post on how I arrived at this place. I think I got tired of feeling sorry for myself and fed up with allowing someone else to have so much control over me.

I did undergo a change in myself last week that was pretty profound. I was laying on the couch at my parents house - out of town with the kids so I was going CRAZY at all the A activity that I knew was going on in my absence - hurting HORRIBLY from a very vicious phone call with WW. I was litterally writhing and groaning I hurt so bad.

Strangely the pain started to change and harden into something else. It wasn't anger though - which is what my pain and hurt usually morph into. It was something. Else. Best word to describe is probably "resolve". Anyway when we came home I felt so differently. Didn't R talk to her for days. Felt like I was in a position of calm - but not punitive - power.

Everyone's thoughts are welcome.

MDC - I actually posted this response on the same thread you referred to above. I know what you mean.

Just a quick thank you for chiming in on "completely lost's" thread. It's nice to chat back and forth with others going though the same thing.

Sounds like you have your ducks lining up properly to be successful in saving your marriage. You shouldn't wait too long before you let WW know that NC will eliminate her from returning to her job unless the OM is gone.

Another thought, so long as she's still actively involved in the A, nothing the MC has to say will make much difference. Unless your MC is a "master" of his/her craft, she'll not have much luck penetrating the fog.

I wasted $$$ in MC visits while my W was still actively involved, and boy, do I hate knowing that....I have a few things on my 'wish' list, that $$$ would have bought <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes,
SD

Thanks SD. We're driving the 1200 miles to her Mom's togther. I'll bring up NC and work issue at that time.

Early on I was putting a lot of faith and hope into the MC. Relying him to "fix" my WW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He's been very good for my own personal growth - have seen him more without WW than with. He's helped me understand the part I've played in creating the pre-A environment. I'm working on things with him that I need to do for myself no matter what happens with WW and I. Benefit is that changing some of these things makes me a better person and a better husband.

If WW shows up at a session then that's good because the MC helps 'humanize' me to my WW. WW pre-A always used to say that I didn't need anyone to be happy and that she could have been anyone, all that I wanted was a wife and kids, etc. MC has been good at kicking off communication between us that makes us both human. If that makes sense. He has helped me see her differently.

That said, MB is a critical piece of the puzzle for me. I'd be completely lost if MC was the only source...

Goal is still to get WW on phone with SH so she can hear first hand what NC means and he can talk to her about vulnerabilities, etc. I've got to be strategic about how I invite her to a SH phone call. Like I said I've recently backed off and it's produced results. WW has said she's hostile to the Harveys because of words like "affair" - a week ago she was insisting that A was the wrong word for her relationship with OM - and "victim". She's very defensive and does not want to put herself in a situation where she feels like she'll be under attack. This is, of course, part of the larger probelem - no desire to be introspective.

My keyword is P A T I E N C E. I'm relatively confident that I'll be able to get her on the phone with SH and get her bought into the MB recovery program. The difference now is that I don't feel anxious for it to happen TOMORROW.

Underlying all of this is the fear that she's being disingenuous, playing me with no intention of ending the A. But I guess that's what I signed up for when I made the decision to try and save the M, right? A lack of complete control over the situation. Unknowns. Dealing with these two things has been the biggest challenge - and biggest growth opportunity - for me. Learning to let go will make my entire life - in and out of the M, with or without WW - better.

hey bro....

got ur msg.....drop me a line when u want.

I don't know where this fits, or if you guys will agree, but here are some of my thoughts as a FWW.

I think the BS needs to make sure the WW knows that they are sorry for their contribution to the unhappiness in the marriage. The BS has to be willing to change things that have hurt the WW. The BS shouldn’t minimize the WW’s pain. Sure, the WW will rationalize their affair with their past hurt, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t actually been hurt, or that their EN have been met in the M.

My husband told me he was sorry about ways he had hurt me and proactively attempted to change his ways right when I was in the middle of my affair. He didn’t know about the affair then. But the fact that he decided to be more considerate to my needs made a huge impact. I stopped idolizing the man I had the affair with, since my husband was trying to love me as my heart desired. It meant a lot to me that he recognized how he had hurt me.

The physical affair didn’t last longer than several weeks. The emotional affair took a lot longer to end. But I wouldn’t have had the strength to stay with my husband if I didn’t know from his actions he genuinely did care about loving me and meeting my EN. I think it’s dangerous to assume a WW just knows that. Often they don’t; that’s why they’re seeking it somewhere else.

Humility is big. It’s hard to be humble and admit mistakes when your WW is wronging you with an affair. It was the most amazing thing when my husband admitted to me that he had neglected our friendship. He had denied it for the longest time. He expressed that he wanted to be a better friend to me, and started asking me what that would look like to me.

Your WW is going to react and reject. She won’t believe your sincerity in your apology. But she still needs to hear it. She will walk away secretly hoping that you mean what you said, that you will change and fulfill her EN. You need to be committed to that change completely aside to the reaction from her. First, it is good to grow and become better people. But second, you need to show her in every interaction with you that you are serious about your own growth and changes, and that she can expect a better more loving you in the future.

I don’t know how this fits with Plan A or Plan B. I just know that on a psychological level, understanding your love and commitment to meeting her EN and eliminating LB is huge. It doesn’t matter if she says she is not in love with you, or doesn’t love you. Love is just a feeling that comes and goes. Tell her that you are dedicated to re-earning her love and recreating your love into something many times better than it was before. With time and work, you can both be new people with better habits and a much stronger love. If you set the example in taking responsibility and changing, it’s much more likely she’ll follow you in doing the same, than otherwise.

When you apologize to your WW, don't grovel or be torn up. Say them with a kind voice, calmly, with conviction in your heart. You want her to know that you've really thought it about it, and are serious in your apology. You want to convey dedication to what you are saying. In future conversations, if she talks about how you've wronged her, say that you are really sorry you have hurt her, and that you are committed to changing your ways and loving her right. Say that every time she complains about you. A WW cannot continue to resent her BS when every time she talks about him and expresses her frustration with him, he communicates that he is serious about changing and that he is genuinely sorry he hurt her. Don't give her any more fuel for her to justify the A. Eventually, the WW will just feel stupid for being off in a A while their BS is lovingly doing his best to be a good spouse.

If the WW says that's not good enough, express that you're sorry to hear it, that ultimately that choice is up to her, but that (again) you are genuinely sorry you hurt her and a serious about changing and making her EN your priority.

Each time, it must be said gently but with conviction. Don't get pulled into fighting or get tempted into hashing it out. Let the conversation drop, if you have to, but don't fight or react to mean things said on her part. If you are going to be a better, more loving you, it has to start right here in the thicket of this awful A.

Can anyone tell me if I should ask for a firm date/time for the No Contact letter? I know she's going to take the contact up to the last minute and maybe beyond(hopefully not).

So officially her NC commitment has not begun. She asked me if she could attend a work related happy hour (it's legit, I checked) for a few minutes to conduct some business. I said that I would support the event as long as my boundary of NC with the OM was not being crossed. Her request was in email and I did not get a reply back to my reply. So I called a couple hours later and said 'just in case you didn't get me email, I support the happy hour as long as...' and there were a couple other housekeeping items I left on VM too.

SO - my question is, when she gets home do I ask her if she respected my boundry?? Do I ask her to write the NC letter tonight?? What do I do? I THINK I'm really starting to understand the Plan A though I'm so new to it. I wasn't as smooth and "airy" (as LA would say) as I would liked to have been on the VM. Practice will make perfect.

So how often do I present my boundaries? Do I ever ask her if she's respecting them? What do I do if I find evidence of contact after she's committed to NC? Do I press her for the NC letter or let her send it "this week"?

Please help.

Thanks

Wow, toosad. Thanks so much for that post. I certainly see what you mean. I acknowledged the pain in the beginning and we've been talking a lot about it in couseling. She was very mistrustful of my apologies. That's what the counselor has been so good for - he's been brokering the dialog for us, saying "See, he is truly remorseful and this is why..." He's actually helping to legitimize my remorse. Which is good.

For a lot of the apologies I was groveling. Maybe it's time to say it again now that I'm in my "new place". She sees that I am stronger now and might think that I am no longer sorry - that I was sorry just long enough to get her to change her mind about staying in the marriage. Basically she's distrustful of my sincerity. And shes uses that distrust as a weapon against me to protect the A but at one point it was - maybe still is - genuine.

Thanks for bringing in the FWW perspective. It's very powerful and very important for me to keep. So that I do not get too high on resentment and entitlement.

What's been happening is that up until late last week I've been really pushing her with lots of R talk, making demands, pleading, etc. This I see now has been LBing and was undoing all the trust that I was trying to build in my intent. To her I was trying to take control. She would tell me that my actions and words didn't match up.

The other LB has been when I would find out about contact with the OM. I would get very sullen and angry - I couldn't hide it!! - and we'd end up arguing. For example I found out Sunday morning that she left him a voicemail Saturday night after not talking to him for 3 days. When I found out I got angry.

I tried to keep it cool and to my self but she read me like a book and asked me what was wrong. I tried but I could not get away with saying "Nothing". So an arguement ensued. Actually it was more like a highly emotional discussion. Not the typical shouting matches. Out of the discussion came her agreement to NC. She did not agree under duress either. She came to me 20 minutes later and offered it. We weren't even talking about NC. It seems like a lot of our advances since the A have come through conflict.

So I don't know what you make of all this but I want you to know that I VERY, VERY much value your thoughts and feelings.

wow....i just read something that i really need to add my 2 cents...

sorry to say this but "toosadtosmile", i read what you said and i just have to shake my head in dis-belief!!!

heres my take, and i read this in a number of posts from others....there is nothing more sad than a broken spirit....what i mean is this, in your post you wrote that the BS should apologize, say sorry...use conviction so on so on....and then KEEP doing that...I say...RIGHT!!!

a BS needs to acknowledge mistakes or behavior issues that allowed feelings to get hurt and create vulnerability for an A, but....unless WS had come to you B4 A, and you chose to ignore these things....i say its a bunch of hogwash!!!

a person knows when they have wronged someone, they know when they have acted like an A-hole to your W or anyone, those things should be addressed, acknowledged and corrected...to grovel....wow, thats another story...

that changes power completely, that puts all the responsibility on the BS, that makes the BS responsible for for the WS A...makes the BS responsible for WS happpines...thats a HUGE responsiblity to put on anyone, especially someone wrecked by their spouses A!

like it or not, a BS is in a fight for their life, and everything they hold dear...look at it that way...someother person is screwin your spouse, and you really expect your BS to BEG?????

thats the reality....thats a fact....as a WS, your thinking is so selfish and mis-directed, that you blame everyone else for your own flaws....

prisons are full of innocent people.....just ask em...."its the banks FAULT they have all that money in there"...."its everyone elses fault, but my own"

unless you told your H about these issues before A, they are a bunch of smoke and mirrors..... quite making him shoulder responsiblity for your charactor flaws...

i could say more, but im sure it evoke a agruement or "fight" that i really dont care to engage in....

im just saying...where you are coming from REALLY tripped me out!

hey MDC, sorry for the rant....