OK Ouch. I knew they were together when I was out of town taking kids to see my parents. Now I have unrefutable proof via a snooped email. And the hurt is SO BIG.

He thanked her for tidying up and leaving a love note. I feel so sick. He also told her that he'd never wash the shirt she wore because it has her smell on it. I feel like d-day all over again.

I know, LA, this means I'm too enmeshed and not whole enough on my own, but geez. How much can a human take????? It was bad enough that they were together when I was in the HOSPITAL.

Makes me wonder how we can ever recover. I mean she's not ready to talk about it. How could she be? I would never want to discuss it. I'm trying to figure out if I need her to tell me the details or not. I see some BSs need the details and they help and others don't want them. I don't want low-level details but I do think I want her to tell me what how and where kind of stuff.

I don't know. I feel like my guts have been ripped out.

Should I be posting on the recovery board? She still has not officially sent the NC letter. Am going to talk to her about this stuff on our 2 day drive. It's been too crazy around here to bring up R talk.

From what I see in the correspondance, she put a nail in the coffin. He's begging her to 'HELP' him and she's not responding. My fear is that he and she thinks there is a timeline by which her life must be perfect for her to stay - 6 months...

I'm sure all of these disgusting feelings will go away in a matter of hours but MAN they are bad while they are here. This is ABSOLUTELY the worst feeling in the world. The WORST time in my life - best time to since I feel like I'm learning and growing like never before.

I'm a mess.

Yes, MDC...let it all out here...and you're doing well to not stuff...file...think of the "shouldn'ts" in your life...rather than your choices, and doing the best you can.

Stuffing is unhealthy. Prevents intimacy. Comes from fear...of judgment, not being loved, respected or cherished if anyone knows the real you.

Yet, you've been betrayed...which you're correct...hurts like the MUTHER of all hurts...feels like you've been wiped off the planet...so much for that fear of not being loved if you show your true self, true?

I'm not going to tell you this will be the most you'll hurt...that's not true. Like D-Day, again and again, as you come across other information...I much preferred mine all at one time...didn't get it. Bite down hard, over and over again...can be lived through. Will show you how much you want desperately to punish back, inflict this kind of pain on your spouse (in my case) to be sure they feel it...and of course, I did, only I did it first...

I obsessed with timelines...like journals, of each contact, act, communication, etc...I wrote and wrote...noted each cell conversation, time, duration...the motel times and location...came up with why this couldn't be when it was and documented some more. I did finally stop about six months after D-Day...it wound down...takes total NC (I didn't get a letter), recommitment to marriage and counseling...that's what it took for me.

You figure out what you need...to know it all so nothing hits you later or sneaks up on you...to know it all so there is no secret left that they share that you're excluded from...to know it a bit at a time, because it is overwhelming and mind-blowing...to only know that you were betrayed...period...done deal. You decide. For you.

Humans can take a bunch...and they can recover. When you figure out you had nothing to do with the A...that it doesn't erase you, demean you and wasn't about you...you can recover. When you really know your spouse chose this with only herself in mind, her pain, her choice of addiction and not facing her life and her choices...you can recover. Your PERSONAL recovery does not depend on hers.

You can do this. You feel betrayed directly proportionate to your own expectations...what was sacred to you...yet A's take place behind backs, doors and minds...you know this. The act is entitlement, fueled by resentment and a lack of respect.

Know this--worse thing to do is to follow those three ingredients from being betrayed and become what is scoring your heart right now...and only you can choose not to.

I don't know about where to post...saw you post on Recovery, too...I was like you...in limbo for awhile...posting is what matters...where? Wherever you can!

((((((((((MDC))))))))))

You are not alone.

LA

LA I cried when I read your post. I'm not sure why. Maybe because it feels so good and sweet to know that I'm not alone? Because there is goodness and sweetness to be found here when I'm not finding it at home?

Anyway I feel a lot better. Thank you for replying so quickly.

Much more later as we're off for our long drive out of state.

Do you know why you are the only one that posts on my thread? Is it because I did not expose? I don't think I need anymore than what I'm getting from you. Just curious. I feel like an outsider on the infedelity board!

Oh, my MDC...for when the long drive ends...

I have a theory, and it's mine...I seem to run people off. I do. I don't know why. I think it's awful...and have wanted to not post because of this...and yes, you need many others...because I'm only me...and more perspectives can better YOUR perspective...

You know what I found when I got the respect--that separate and equal--thing going? Reading Harley told me I could get some of my needs...elsewhere, without taking away from my marriage. Meaning, if I wanted openness and honesty and WH wasn't into it...even pre-WH wasn't? I could get it here, anonymously...and practice giving it...because what I thought was O&H was really AO and DJ...so I had to practice...and be O&H with myself...accountable here. And with girlfriends...coworkers, slowly but surely.

Then my dire need for O&H from DH lessened and lessened...and because of that, I became safer and safer...sharing what I learned and stopped digging for his truth.

Admiration, acceptance, conversation, attention...all of this I get in small parts to being here...and with girlfriends and coworkers...and I hold myself accountable to stay O&H for me and for others, honoring the truth others' share with me.

Funny thing...then all the admiration, acceptance, conversation and attention increased from my DH...of his own accord...because I was safe to be intimate with...stopped measuring, judging and finding him lacking...not enough...

He's more than enough, as is...but he wouldn't be if I made him my entire world again...which used to sound like a lovely compliment instead of a HUGE DJ...

So, yes...being here meets your ENs...and encourages you to meet your own, in new ways, so that your needs aren't consuming, struggling, fear-filled and detrimental...they are just your needs.

Knowing we're not alone is powerful...was for me. I'm happy to know you cried...expressed...your fear of being the only one, the wrong one, who feels, thinks and believes the way you do.

May others post...please....

LA

LA - too bad you run people off. I think I may be a thread-killer as well.

I said your posts are all I need right now but I don't mean that - otherwise I wouldn't have brought up the solo posting! I would like other's inputs. You are helping me TREMENDOUSLY. I can't thank you enough.

I am SO thankful that I there is a place where I can be O&H ANYTIME day or night. I definitely am getting lots of practice not only posting my own honesty but reading about other's honesty and advice solicited/given here. I'm coming to realize that O&H is a new mindset for me that requires new language and thought patterns. I'm learning that language here.

I find myself practicing O&H in other parts of my life as well - grocery store, work, family, friends. It feels great!

My feeling of being the "wrong one" in all of this has been pretty powerful. I see how much damage I did early on after discoverey when I assumed responsibility for WW's infidelity. WW told me I let him into her heart! Wow. I believed that. We spent the next 4 weeks blaming ME. MC blamed ME and further enabled and fueld the A.

You're right about being "safe". As I become a safe place for her to be I see her drawing closer. I've also come to accept and love my needs too instead of judging them as weak or soft or flawed.

Thanks again for your support, LA and everyone else that has posted - or will post! - on my sitch.

Much love.

You're welcome, MDC...you're valuable and worth it.

When you crave goodness and sweetness...it is a sign of what you aren't giving yourself...and for a guy, I bet that's even more difficult to embrace.

For four weeks, you were being evil to yourself, unaccepting, bashing and trying to find your power in blame...been there, did that. Don't want that t-shirt. Yet, I know this comes from FOO, not our marriages. I got to re-experience this for the last week myself. Funny how there is no power in blame at all...and yet, powerfully appealing--if we are the cause then we can be the cure, the control.

And we aren't. Truth can be as sweet as it a sword...sweet truth that you are not to blame for anyone else's choices...and a sword for you to know that O&H is the path to intimacy...sharing yourself, which is what is most desired by spouses, is your new chosen path...it redeems the past by affecting the present positively, by choice.

Great choice.

See, not being O&H tells Self (not self-image) that Self isn't good enough...can't be known or shared because Self is bad. Self isn't. Can't be...what God created when he created you...so not being O&H disrespects Self...and you're not doing that anymore...feels like relief, freedom...when it is Self accepted instead of rejected...yeah, feels darn good.

Thanks for handing me back this lesson when I needed it the most (okay, see my old hyperbole jutting its square jaw?)...you being who you are is significant.

LA

Thanks LA. I know part of the reason why I took blame is that I was thinking if I owned part or all of the problem I could fix it by changing me. Control. Scary when I have to turn that control over to someone else.

It's been 1.5 weeks since WW has spoken to or emailed OM. At least I think this. I was with her for the first week, checking email and phone. I know she did not contact him then. I've been away from her since Saturday and I don't THINK she's been in touch with him. Although he's been in touch with her via email.

BTW WW cannot quit her job until my insurance kicks in from my new job in July. She said she would like to quit. She's actively looking for another job.

On Friday of last week WW and I were in the car together when her cell phone rang. It was OM. I was furious. WW and I had been together all week on vacation, getting closer, finding our place together. A little strained between us but definitely progression.

So when OM's call broke the peace I was very angry. Not at WW but at OM since she had told him to leave us alone. So I answered the phone. I was firm and short - telling him NOT to contact WW anymore as we were working to rebuild our lives.

He called about 10 times after that. Answered none of the calls. He sent text messages asking her to HELP him if she ever cared about him and "A whole week and you don't ask how I am, I must be an idiot."

Remember OM is all alone since his W threw him out of the house on her Dday, mid-March. Looks like he's going off the rails.

So I was visibly upset when I ended the call and WW looked at me, touched my leg and said "I'm sorry." It was sincere. I should have left it there but instead I said "why is he calling when you told him not to?" to which she got defensive saying that she had not called him at all since NC day.

Right after the call I suggested we change WW's cell phone number. She agreed and I made the call and got it changed.

She made an excuse for him suggesting he MAY have been calling for a legitimate work reason. I pointed out that it was 4:00 on a Friday and VERY unlikely he was calling about work. This made me nervous that she was defending him instead of attacking like I was. But I guess it's normal this early into NC? Part of withdrawl?

The mood became tense between us with each of us falling into our roles, that we both hate, of her being defensive and me being acusatory. Even though the accusation was at him, not her. I believed her. She either doesn't see that or doesn't want to see that I believe her.

There was an email waiting for me from OM when I got home. Blaming me for the way things were - basically saying that why should he leave my W alone and help our relationship when I contacted his W and told her about the details I had on the A making reconciliation impossible for him. Unbelievable, right? Blaming ME for problems with his M.

Lots more garbage like that in the email. Wasn't going to read it but I felt strong enough and I knew he'd send a similar note to WW so I wanted to see what he was going to throw at her.

So this is where we are. OM REFUSING to give up contact with WW. WW still working at the same place where OM can reach her via email or IM. At some point I'm sure he's going to figure out what her new cell phone number is.

WW is being co-operative to a point. Spoke to her last night & told her about the OM email. She asked for a summary and I gave it to her. I asked her if he had sent her any. She said yes but hadn't read them. I told her not to read them because they likely contained the same garbage that was in mine. She said "You WOULD say that!" What does that mean? To me it means she's still protecting him and their relationship.

She said she'd forward the emails to me. I said I would like that. WW got kind of crappy with me saying "o-KAY". Not enthusiastic about sharing. Seems to me like she is sincere about rebuilding but still somewhat reluctant to give up this world? Can that be? It makes sense because there's a lot tied up for her in the A world - justification, fantasy, absence of guilt, etc.

Feel like we're in limbo right now. I still have not received the emails from her. Of course next step is for me to ask if she responded. Which I know she'll bristle at.

Crazy but this actually seems like progress to me. Very SLOW progress. Fact that we can talk about the OM together at all without a heated arguement is relatively new. Having said that, I'm still terrified that he will pull her back into his world with one of those plaintive emails. Or partially pull her in. I'm not even 100% sure that she's reading the notes he's sending. Just the possibility that she is makes my stomach turn.

Thanks for reading. Please share your thoughts.

Yes, MDC...you are having progress in recovering your marriage...

However, you know I'm concerned about you...you blurted "Why is HE calling when you told him not to?!" which makes her responsible for another person's actions...can feel attacking, like you're holding her responsible (because she had the A) for what she cannot be responsible for...she can only be responsible for not responding to his contact...and you both did great..changing cell #...which usually goes with the NC letter.

Change your email and her email addresses. and IM name...seriously. Part of standing NC procedure.

Be aware and stay aware of your words...you're responsible for them...correct and clarify..."I felt really frustrated when I said that...I want so much to not fear as deeply as I do right now. I'm working on it." Own your stuff, MDC...to her and yourself.

You're doing great.

Also, say what is behind your request...for his emails to her..."I need your help in not reading his emails...I know they are written to tear us apart and I'm afraid of them doing just that. I will delete all emails from him and I need you to forward all he sends to you to me. I know he doesn't have the power to rip us up...only we do...I appreciate your help."

Why are you judging her so harshly? Kinda crappy with you, not being enthusiastic about sharing...have you felt great guilt in your life MDC? That searing shame? She's facing that, feeling those, deeply, utterly and her "okay" means she would be showing you how crappy OM really is...which means she was throwing away gold for manure and you're gonna see it...because only now, she's seeing it...before he was a fantasy...now your Plan A has brought him into reality and the light is too harsh, truth shows too much...no enthusiasm for that.

All that anger, pain, fear she had for you...which justified her A through her own resentment...yeah, gonna take some time...and judging her, measuring her words, motives, mindreading and assuming is only gonna continue the disrespect in your marriage.

I know you don't want that. I know you want to stay changed...and so close into NC is really tough...though you have expected it to be so much less painful than contact...adjust...know...no mindreading or assumptions. Listen and repeat. Stay respectful...now you are both against the A...be gentle, maintain your boundaries and do not judge her away, please.

You can do this. Don't kick your own tushy trying to reach OM's...he's not worth it. He isn't real...and he never was...don't read his emails. Print and hide them away, if you need them for an RO, 'k?

((((MDC))))

LA

LA - thank you SO much for your perspective. I do judge too harshly. That's been my problem in this M from the start. I did not allow my W to be who she was. I held her to my standards. Did not see her as her own person. I definitely need to work on that. Thank you for pointing it out.

Fantastic points you made. Post NC is a new world for me and yes it's harder than I thought. I have not yet found my "spot" in this new phase. You are helping me locate it.

If she does not foward the emails do I ask her again to do it? These are the things I have trouble with - trying to figure out what the right balance is...

WW cannot change her email because it's corporate. Same with her IM. Any blocking has to be done by her.

Thank you for encouraging me to trust her, trust the recovery. It's what I really WANT to do but I have so many emotions swiriling around inside of me and I am so suspicious and scared that the A will start up again. I mean it's dangerous for him to be sending those emails, right?

BTW - I am still on affair books. Nothing for me yet. Almost done with "Not Just Friends" which helps because it's MB pricipals in a slightly different light. I think WW will be able to read this book. And it's reinforcement of what I already know, which I need. Can't wait to finish it and read something for ME though. Tired of affair books and affair talk.

I read some snips in a post from "Forgive & Forget". Amazing stuff. Need to get that one.

How do I respectfully tell her something that bothers me? I send emails to her work address and she rarely responds. I sent two last night and got zero response on either of them. They were not A or R related, just sweet, conversational emails. It hurts me - and adds to my fear - that she doesn't respond. She would always respond so quickly to HIS emails.

Not sure I'm going to get those emails. I think she's embarassed about the contents and probably there's information in them that would reveal more about the A than she wants me to know.

So I'll be patient. Last night was the first time that she talked to me about OM - now she views him as a problem -without me asking.

So she did forward 2 emails. One of them was asking her for a non-work email address he could send his "final good-bye" email to. So she sent him her personal email address. ARGH. WHY did she do that? Now he can interrupt her ANYtime after she leaves the job. Unless she kills the personal email address. Which she has had for 5 years.

She should have refused to give him ANY email address. Or given him a fake one. Or opened up and account long enough for him to send his note, then closed it.

Right now WW is weary - I can hear it in her voice. I believe that the weight of what she has done is starting to settle in.

She was very short and a little mean with me today when I called her. She was the same last night when she told me OM was becoming demanding and mean in his emails to her at work. When she told me I said "ummm, hummm". To which she snapped "You sound so Non-chalant".

So now I'm there for her as she recovers from the pain of the A even though she was no where to be seen when I needed her most. A beautiful gift we give waywards, isn't it?

I'm here, MDC...

Starting from the top...down...

"I do judge too harshly. That's been my problem in this M from the start." You see in your M...can you see from before that? And before that? Can you get back to its beginning you, and the payoff...it's appeal for you?

And can you monitor your fear? Score it on the good ol' 1 to 10 scale...up and down throughout the day? Fear and love...one goes up, the other goes down...seemingly...fear is louder than love...squeaky wheel kinda scenario...love beats fear, only when you know the difference between them.

Great sign you're getting sick of affair/marriage books. What fiction do you hanker for? I found lots of messages and epiphanies through fiction, then began alternating them...

How do you respectfully tell her something that bothers you? How do you respectfully tell her anything...your joy, your sadness, a passing thought, a silent sigh, an unexpected moment of peace? You tell me how you communicate those, and then tell me what is bothering you...

"I fear. My fear levels shot off the charts when I saw that you had given him your personal email address. I can only see this as a continuation of the affair...more contact. I am deluged with sadness, rejection and distrust."

Is that how you share?

Speak, not email. Do not allow comparison of answering his emails or yours...don't go there. I've been there...with the phone calls several times a day for OW and not for me...I know what comparison gets...it is the backbone of judgment...how we get our secret fix...harsh and warm heroin. Leave it alone. Stop. Put down the needle.

Comparison...be acutely aware of it in your thoughts...monitor this nasty tool...this demon on earth. "I am" has no comparison. Separate and equal...yes, comparison and fact. Only fact there is...you are magnificently made by God...do not worship your wife. She does not define who you are...you are unique.

Now, are you gonna expose to her work? I ask because continuing contact continues the affair...you know this. You won't expose. Work is too important...is that right?

When you sent those sweet, conversational emails...how did you feel about you? Good? Solid? Loving? Enjoying the act of loving? The choice?

Stay there, in your own action...not your expectations. Fear spikes failed expectations...better to have reasonable ones...which include, "I like sending emails." I had to get there...my WH said, "Write to yourself." He wouldn't respond, either...I do know this pain...and had to wrench my own backside out of his area and back into my own. You choose. I choose. We do. Do not give yourself permission to tank your own good on expectations of others.

"Not sure I'm going to get those emails. I think she's embarassed about the contents and probably there's information in them that would reveal more about the A than she wants me to know." Was this like an inside out self-pep talk? Kinda like "I know I have no control, so I'll just DJ her to convince me I have no control? To kind of lower my expectations through self manipulation?"

Ummm, hmmmm isn't part of listen and repeat. It's passive aggressive...not wanting to hear her thoughts, feelings and beliefs because she's only now seeing him for the destroyer he is, which makes her a destroyer, too...do not blow this opportunity to stick to YOUR code...respect. "You hear me as nonchalant. I get that. I'm afraid. I'm hearing you feel pressure and attacked by OM. I am feeling very petty and small...OM broke my marriage to heck and back...and you are now seeing him as mean. I don't know what else to say because I'm feeling so much pain, anger and rage."

Sounds like your Taker is here: "So now I'm there for her as she recovers from the pain of the A even though she was no where to be seen when I needed her most. A beautiful gift we give waywards, isn't it?"

Where's your balance? Are you giving to be noble for yourself or to get what you want most? Are you aware of yourself, your own changes for you, or are you just eating a lot of crow to get what you want?

Is this manipulation, MDC, or your truth you're living?

Do you want recovery or do you want revenge?

Where were you for you when you needed most? I hate that phrase...I needed 24/7...my need was incredible, too much for me...so I'm reacting to the verbage, not you.

Until you get you're both humans, both half of the marriage, you're not going to get to recovery, MDC. I'm sorry, but I believe that. Judgment may give you a false feeling of strength and righteousness...craven justice...but it won't get you a thriving marriage.

Your choice.

You want your wife to feel your pain, know it thoroughly, intimately...guess what? It will be blinding to her, too bright, to such a depth you would be easier to walk away from than to attempt to look at. Your choice. Own your pain, your justice...that this is where you learned what you hadn't ever before...or you would rather get your pound of flesh now...payback.

You're DJing her voice, her emotions, her point of view...be respectful, ask. "How are you feeling right now?" "How do you feel about OM being demanding and mean?"

This is you respecting...not a doormat. This is you getting to know your wife new...without DJ sunshades at night. This is you knowing what is hers is hers...not about you. Holding your own way, by choice.

You can do this, MDC. Would any of this have helped two years ago? Would what sounds harsh coming from me, have gotten you to a different present? Radical Honesty, Respect, knowing and owning selves...demonstrating the rule of care and time...all are choices we make...not to give to get, but to thrive to live.

Wish those rhymed, don't you?

Be honest with yourself...if you are living for the day she is remorseful, overwhelmed and caved in...then this isn't about recovery, is it?

LA

Harsh judgment is definitely something I need to trace back. I know it’s appeal to me – it makes me feel powerful. And in control. And “right”. Stems from insecurity I’m sure. I don’t know where the beginning is…

At this point I feel as if I cannot deal with the A and the recovery and everything else until I get myself right. Feeling overwhelmed right now. Ideal world I’d put EVERYTHING on hold, work on myself, then address the M. I’m at the point now where I can’t work. I should be working and here I am typing. Going to see about getting on some anti-depressants.

Had a trigger this morning with a shirt that OM bought for her – found it in the clean clothes. Started out the day with a pit in my stomach. The shirt reminds me of when WW saw OM during my hospital stay. I’ve been unable to shift out of this low gear since. Also contributing is a note she sent me last night. Nice enough note. The language she used, however, was a trigger. WW said “Love ya.” That is something OM always used to say – “ya”. WW would have NEVER said that before meeting him. So of course I’m all over the place wondering if she talked to him, emailed him, etc. She did forward me his “goodbye” note. I responded asking her what her reply was and how did it make her feel.

I know I’m not supposed to obsess on every word she says or writes but sometimes – like now – I feel like a puddle of jello.

LA – I like what you say about fear. I do believe that you trade love for fear. Right now I’m 8 on the fear scale. How do you chase fear away and replace it with love??

I really don’t hanker for any fiction right now…. I haven’t in years.

Helps to see my fears articulated like this. It’s been difficult for me to come out with clear, level-headed statements like this during conversation. Which is why I’ve tended towards written communication. My emotions get the better of me and 50% of the time I end up mis-representing myself. I’ve never been very good in emotion-based impromptu conversation.

When you say speak, not email you mean don’t share in email right? I know that if I don’t share in voice then I’ll never get good at it. I need more practice.

I’ll stay away from the comparisons. You’re right, they are poison.

I have not exposed at work for a couple reasons. One is because exposure is supposed to end the affair. As far as I can see, the affair has ended, though not the way I would have liked. She has not initiated contact with him and he sent his “goodbye” email. I would need evidence that she was keeping the A alive after yesterday to feel like work exposure was warranted.

When I speak to her tonight I’ll tell her how I feel about ANY contact at all going forward now that OM seems to have calmed down. I know the reason why she wanted to let him have his final say is so that he wouldn’t bother her while she was trying to work anymore. I know, she should be protecting herself by deleting the emails and blocking him in IM but she’s not.

Here’s what I’ll say –

“"I fear. My fear levels shot off the charts when I saw that you had given him your personal email address. I can only see this as a continuation of the affair...more contact. As long as there is contact, the affair lives. In my heart, in my mind and in my soul. I am deluged with sadness, rejection and distrust. I fear that since he now has your personal email he can intrude on our lives at ANY time in the future. Whether you’re working at XXXX or we’re living across the country. You’ve given him access to you. To us. I feel unsafe in this situation.

Any contact you have with him or he has with you is like a dagger in my heart. I feel pain. Unprotected. How will you protect me? Protect us? What will you do if he contacts you again? Via email? IM? Or phone? How will you protect us?"

LA when I sent the emails I really did feel good, solid and loving. I DID enjoy the choice. I did not send them with expectations. Honest. I felt some hurt at receiving no reply but when I let them go I did it with a full heart.

Listen and repeat. Listen and repeat. I should have those words tattooed on the inside of my eyelids. Listen and repeat helps be regain focus, balance. Gives the hopper time to work.

Thank you for reminding me of my code. Like I said I need the practice of these interactions to respond like I WANT to respond. As the person that I want to be.

I truly am not eating crow to get what I want. It just hurts sometimes. And gets frustrating. And I start thinking with my heart, not my head and I get angry! I really am living my truth deep down. My truth seems to fight with my fears and the “template” I typically use to deal with emotional trauma – which is to close up, bar the gates and sling hot tar at anyone who gets too close.

I DO not want revenge. I want recovery. My WW, my kids and I all deserve a peaceful and happy family.

I’m WORKING on staying centered. That’s why I’m posting here. I don’t have enough balance in the rest of my life, I’m letting the A take everything over. I know what I need to do I’m just not doing it. First step to take care of ME will be to get on the anti-Ds.

I don’t want my wife to FEEL my pain I want her to know what it is. I truly, truly don’t want her to go through what I’ve been through. I did at first but now I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. I just want her to understand. I want so badly for her to understand me so that I don’t have to think about what I’m going to say every time I open my mouth around her. I just want her to know what I know. I don’t want her to have the hurt feelings that I have.

Respect is key. Thanks for giving me the words. “How are you feeling right now? How does it feel?” etc. It feels so GOOD when I’m centered in respect for myself and her. I feels GOOD to BE good. To give without taking something away from myself to do it. Does that make sense?

That’s the world I want to live in ALL the time. I’m feeling battered and blown and having somewhat of a hard time keeping my heart in that world. Staying centered.

We would absolutely have a different present if I had this thinking 2 years ago. Without a doubt.

Thrive to live, not give to get. I’ll have that tattooed on my arm.

Thank you as always LA. Thank you.

BTW – I felt empty and sick in my stomach before I wrote this. Feel better, stronger, more centered and loving now. Articulating and finding my center through words is so cathartic for me.

((((MDC)))))

"At this point I feel as if I cannot deal with the A and the recovery and everything else until I get myself right."

Poof...you have gotten right. Honest. You aren't broken, MDC...these are steps to focus on in your head instead of feed resentment and anger over the A. Great idea on the AD's...self-care of the highest order is what I'm prescribing.

Being aware of your payoff in judgment IS half the battle. I promise. It is so automatic...does not mean you're bad or wrong at all...human. You have a false power at work, which gets in the way of your true power...your choice to speak, be known and accept yourself. Whatever you do to others, you are doing to yourself...see the benefit in judgment awareness? You get some internal relief when you stop...and your acceptance of self and others, our very humanity, increases. Whew! Much better...no sweat involved. Tender with yourself, 'k?

"Feeling overwhelmed right now. Ideal world I’d put EVERYTHING on hold, work on myself, then address the M. I’m at the point now where I can’t work. I should be working and here I am typing. Going to see about getting on some anti-depressants." Hey, I'm not overwhelmed and here I am at work, writing to you. I'm feeling downright sly!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Had a trigger this morning with a shirt that OM bought for her – found it in the clean clothes. Started out the day with a pit in my stomach." Awww...triggers are information...has she not cleaned out all gifts, etc., from the affair? Hmmm....time for a bag you can burn, don't you think? Or donate, symbolically? Or shred one thread at a time?

Along with no contact, this is very important. My WH kept something in the corner of his room and I stuffed it down in me for more than two months...after he recommitted, I brought it down and handed it to him and asked him why he kept it. He said he'd forgotten it was there. His OW's son made it for him...tore me up inside...along with the journals and love letters he still had in his room...and he threw it away in front of me. He said, "I don't know why...because a child made it. I'm sorry." Not our child...another victim hurting from his choices.

Later, he did tear out the letters and entires about her...to her...and threw them away in the trash in the garage one day, on his own...he said, after I discovered he'd done this, that he was really sorry and was not keeping them for anything...they were fantasy. Same day he threw out the porn, too.

So...these symbols matter. You're not nuts. There are enough triggers without gifts and crap involved. I believe in ceremony for purging...redemption in it. You decide.

POJA it with WW...ask for this, speak of your trigger...and own your trigger. "I need your help. I felt punched in my gut when I pulled that shirt OM gave you out of the dryer...can you please round up all his gifts, letters, notes, anything you might have...and dispose of them? I am very afraid of the unexpected pain and I want to handle it better."

"I trigger when you say, "Love ya" because that was yours with OM."

Simple statements...you sharing you. You owning your trigger. Her choice to do or not, change or not...yet you no longer betraying you, MDC...not controlling, not really changing, but stating your truth is revealing you. Practice. You can do this.

I don't believe in chasing away fear at all...I believe in looking at it...it's mine, and seeing it for what it really is...a really small child, in the center of my chest...and I go to the adult part of me and hug that fear, hold it...and if it says, "You're gonna get hurt!!!" I say, "Maybe" and speak or act, anyway.

Now I have to run stuff to the post office and go home...I'll continue from there.

LA

Part Deux...

"I know I’m not supposed to obsess on every word she says or writes but sometimes – like now – I feel like a puddle of jello." Knowing what triggers you isn't obsessing...it is acknowledging how you think and what you observe. Holding yourself to the shoulds and supposed to's, though, is a sign of judgment...external stuff you want to be aware of most. A puddle of jello...you're getting closer to emotion identification...can you take that one description a tad further? I see a puddle of jello as sad...and this may be what you intend...a grief, something to grieve...but you may not. Help me out.

I obsessed. I did. It was shocking to become aware that I could obsess. Didn't know that about myself before this...not this blatantly. Also, my WH spoke differently during his A, also...pronounced words differently, with a slight accent...his OW was Hispanic. I didn't say anything--heck I knew I was obsessing--but my kids picked up on it and I remember him at dinner one night, getting on our youngest for a remark and my son looking him right in the eye and holding it...and my WH dropped his accent for a couple of hours--and his criticism. In some manly code, this was my son calling him on his affectation...

And it went away. Could this "ya" symbolize something to you? What is the fear behind that symbol?

Back to the fear...when you hug fear, you increase love. No chasing, forcing, pushing or pulling...hugging is embracing, owning...an unusual antidote, don't you think? And breathing slowly, deeply...and smiling. These were my tools...and I still use them. Good self-care.

No fiction??? What??? No fiction??? LOL...oh, well. Fiction authors are like rock stars to me...I'm a groupie.

The work you're doing now...naming your emotions...tracing them back to the belief they are coming from, this attention will increase your ability for impromtu conversation...because internally, this is about trust. You believe you misrepresent yourself off the cuff...maybe you have a voice in your head that monitors, judges and chides you after you speak...which sends emotions, most of them conflicting, soaring. A cycle we have to contend with as humans...and cycles can be broken...each time you stay present, listen and repeat, you are building trust in yourself for yourself. Those random "I feel" and "I believe" statements...simple ones about your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...build your experience, which trains your brain. Practice it on everyone. Also teaches your fear, the more you do it, that you will do it, and live. Honest...fear fears death everywhere...believes we can die from our pain...that others can kill us with theirs. Teach fear we do not...we won't...we have choice.

No problem on the work exposure...I figured you were in the limbo stage...no contact takes time to see no contact...and goodbye crud bodes ill...at first. I did not get a no contact letter or promise...and I didn't expose to their workplace, either. My H did transfer locations, which worked for no contact for me...not perfectly, but I think I needed to master my own fears and this was the way to do it.

However, had contact continued, I would have exposed. I'm with you.

And yes, during that time, when he was deciding to stay or end the marriage, there was closure sessions, contact and ILYs...which ripped me up. I remember. I'm not ripped anymore. When a month after no contact my H said, "I know she wasn't real...I know I didn't love her...I loved the fantasy" I began to heal. No promoting, directing or educating from me. Meant a lot. Of course, he wasn't that direct...he'd just dropped the bomb on me about it being a PA the whole time, from the start...so I was reeling and heard him say, "She's my fantasy." Took me three weeks to revisit it and hear him correctly.

LOL

It happens.

I tell you this because I believe in this process. I believe we face emotional death to grow in our lives...and I want you to know that someday you will lovingly laugh, you really will, at how diverse, extreme and emotionally reactive you were...and this isn't to be gotten through...it can change everything...I promise...no matter what.

Your choice. Your power.

I loved your image of closing up and protecting with hot tar...lol! Yes. I understand. Would you consider that it isn't thinking with your heart instead of your mind...something we were taught early on...but thinking with your inner child, which is often who takes charge when we are in terrible pain, instead of our adult experience?

I know you can see why changing that belief...the one that says, "If I hurt, I can hurt back and make the hurting stop"...is crucial in our lives? It doesn't work...and the belief "My pain comes in from the outside" doesn't work, either. Pain doesn't stop pain...understanding soothes pain. Acceptance soothes pain. All parts of love...fear causes pain.

Find the roots...gently, surely...don't let up. Find those beliefs and dig them out.

I'm glad you're past the pain for pain level...as you can see, I wasn't judging your maturity or image...relating to that really old belief we acquire in childhood with siblings or playmates, even parents, you see how deep you have to go to get to where you admit what beliefs you're operating from...and they are surprising. Please know that there is no embarrassment, no judgment in getting to these old beliefs...if you still wanted her to feel your pain so you didn't have to...like a release...you could identify and know it, no shame, and understand that she cannot experience what you are experiencing...you both are separate people. Knowing what is yours and not wanting to rid yourself of what is yours is key.

They don't call this a hero's journey for nothing.

I had to be bigger than I really was, go on faith, like you are doing, to get here. I had to envision this woman who was amazing to the woman envisioning her...and leap. Funny part is, MDC, when you do that...all you'll realize later is that you already were the person you wanted to be...with different beliefs, permissions and perspective. It truly is a magical journey.

You get back to who you are...no re-creation necessary. It is like unravelling yourself from all you piled onto yourself without even knowing it.

Yes on the feeling good to be good...and no. Yes! for getting that vast relief of respect...hey! This is mine, not hers. That's hers, not mine. Wow! And that resonating rightness inside of you which accompanies that relief. And no on the "to be good" because that's a judgment. LOL And yeah, you can take a swing at me for that one...I deserve it.

:::ducking:::

You are whole, wonderfully made...magnificently created...unravel, feel that freedom when you know real responsibility and not layers of stuff that haven't ever been yours. That allows your love to thrive, to dance and breathe and cheer. Yes...stopping the self-betrayal stops you costing yourself...and it's a pricey way to live, isn't it? When your self wasn't worth bartering away, you hurt...maybe wanted to close those gates...when it was you doing the sneak attack.

Don't cross the line of respect in your desire to not have the hurt feelings you have...our brains do not know reality from fantasy...the more vividly you dwell on her, possible conversations, thoughts, feelings and beliefs...the more your brain records them as real. This will mess with your respect lines. Mess with your relationship. Kind of like working against yourself...be aware and draw that line, even in your mind.

Oh, and don't go into the past...yes, with an eye to ownership...but not to say you would be having a different present. This is a trick. I did it a lot...throughout my life...retrospective living teaches us we have power where we do not and then obscures our real power. You could not have been in this place and known and learned what you are learning...impossible. You are right where you need to be...right now...to get this. Doesn't come until we're ready...so no regrets to the past and no willfulness to the future, 'k? This isn't a write off...it is a powerful truth. Let that part go because you'll confuse what you're learning...accept this is where you are for a reason...a necessary collison...it takes what it takes...and we don't know why, yet...don't go back except to extract a different image of yourself than you had at the time...and be gentle...that you only knew what you knew then...

Helps us center for the future. If you feed yourself chunks of the if only's from the past, then you are gorging on a future full of what ifs...and centering takes the present and known reality.

Your time and effort to post, less to an eye of how you're seen and more of the mind to see yourself is already showing...you are already thriving...key parts of you. You're doing this...writing is your self-care...your castle and prison...you're doing this. Take the credit. Know your power.

Thank you for being here.

LA

I burned the shirt. Not with anger or hate - which I might have used in the past to justify such an act - but with......... I'm not sure exactly. It just felt right.

Works for me...however, did you ask WW first?

LA

ummmm

no

Can you say, Ruh Roh?

LOL

See...symbols are funny things...they greatly affect us...

If your WW had said, "Oh, burn it for all I care" and you did, then you would own two things...

The fact that she gave you permission, which recognizes your feelings...AND getting to burn something hideous out of your life.

You only got the second part.

LOL

Hey...maybe I didn't tell my story clear enough...I learned from seeing that gift every day...I learned from my triggers...and saw it as a respect reminder...that is his, this is mine...so I got a double gift.

However...I did burn my crap...secrets of my past harm; and I was so upset at the time, I nearly burned the beanie baby my FWH had given me when I was WW...luckily, I stopped and felt the softness...and knew my own shame wanted to be burned up.

There is no right or wrong to what you did, MDC. Learn from what you chose...understand it thoroughly. That's all.

LA

I see now how much better it could have been to get a double gift. SHE would have participated in the symbolic destruction as well by giving me permission.

Right now I'm very nervous that WW is talking to OM. She's extreamly stressed out - that's what got her talking to him in the first place - and being mean and short with me. My gut is screaming on this and I know - we all know - the feeling TOO well.