You are fearful and concerned...what do you have in place...keylogger, etc. to monitor contact?

And no...that we all know that feeling too well...no...I didn't get changes in my WH which indicated intimate contact again and again...and they were happening...he didn't show a thing. I didn't assume or mindread...I snooped and found...I said, "You are choosing to lie and break your promise." He was stunned...three times. And the fourth time, when he took pictures of her after recommitting to the marriage, it took our shrink to say, "Why didn't you just walk in the door and hit your wife in the head? That's what you did by your choices."

So, no...didn't go that assumption/worry route because I'd lived that way too long...all my life...and I wanted to break my pattern.

LA

I don't have anything in place. She's in another state right now so I can't check her laptop. I can monitor her cell phone. But she may have caught on to the fact that I can see all calls in and out. I'm suspicious that she's talking to him on her mother's phone and/or via email and IM. I'll just ask when I talk to her next. I won't accuse, I'll just ask.

You're right - better not to assume and worry, rather find out. Tough to do that when I'm so far away. So I'll just ask.

How about sharing your fear and concerns...doesn't put it on her...

"I'm having a hard time with my fear. I am trusting you to maintain no contact. I didn't realize before what separate people we are...and that I choose to trust or not trust...rather than me just needing to."

Is that better than asking?

Trouble with infidelity is that we ask liars for truth.

And the same for ourselves.

Sharing isn't asking...it is being open and honest...truly sharing what is in us...without expectation.

Teaches us to rely on us, not others.

LA

LA - thanks for the redirection. Also thank you for your 2-part reply from late in the week. As per ususal it struck very deeply. Especially the part about becoming more of who I am.

The first thing WW said to me when I told her that I could change, WANTED to change was that she didn't want me to have to become someone else. Immediately I said that I only wanted to become more of who I was. That being withdrawn from the marriage, judgemental, self-centered, negative was NOT who I was. MY recovery through all this is pealing back the layers of crud that have built on top of the REAL me over the years. And I'm talking about 20+ years. I will not be the same after this. I'll be MORE like me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


As you know WW (FWW??) is out of state with MIL. We haven't had the opportunity to talk much on the phone while she's been out there. Thus recovery has been slow going vs. what we could do in person. However being around her mother, sister and other extended family is good right now. For everyone.

So I'm trying to avoid loading up her email box with A and R talk and taking little opportunities to give to the marriage, build intimacy between us, etc. When she forwarded me OM's goodbye note I thanked her for sharing and asked if she replied to him. Took her a couple days to write back but she said that 'no' she didn't reply to him. And that she wanted me to know that she wasn't keeping anything from me.

I don't believe that she did not reply to him - because I went into her Yahoo email account and saw the little "reply" icon. Also the words she used in her email reply were suspiciously dismissive. Seemed to me like she was trying too hard. Reminded me of the way she talked while trying to cover up the A.

So it doesn't bother me too too much if she replied to him and lied about it. Because I'm really believing that she is NC and sincere about working on us. I did want to write back to her and underscore that it's OK to share things with me even if it appears as if the sharing will hurt me. Making mountains our of molehills probably but it's on my mind so I'm posting.

I had the you-can-tell-me talk with my WH with a different spin...

"When you say you can't tell me because it will hurt me, you are disrespecting me. You are lying by omission."

That cured that.

LOL

Ouch...lots of ouch...yet...as time went on, and the hopper was in full use...less ouch and more honesty without edge. Funny way to begin the O&H habit, yet it worked.

MDC...does she have a history of depression? I wonder about her energy...and your inquiry into NC can be more about your heart than hers...and it is both. We know that.

I figured you knew you had accumulated crud over self...being more of you, as made, not remade, is the wonder of Plan A...can be, if we choose.

Call more and email less. Ask her mom about how much she is sleeping...how often.

LA

Yes she has been sleeping a lot. And has a history of depression.

Found out that she'll be out at MiL's for at least another 2 weeks. Feels like recovery will be stalled until she returns. Also WW seems a million miles away to me (metaphorically). I have no idea what she's thinking or feeling. Worst fear is that she doesn't want to reconcile. Next worst is that she's ambivalent. I keep reaching out though. Giving to live, not giving to get. It's hard.

LA since you're the only one that posts on this thread, this is for you. Would like to know your thoughts.

I started a new thread to get some feedback since this thread is just you and me.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#3021854

WW stated in an email that she was sorry for betraying me, thinks about it every day and had too much to share for writing. I scheduled a phone date with her tomorrow to listen. I will listen, respect and repeat. She wants to share with me. To me this is a BIG deal. I understand I need to be cautious and that she is not yet FWW.

What are your thoughts??

LA - do you have any thoughts for me? I would love (anyway) to hear them!

Hi, MDC...

Did I drive everybody away?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I read what she said the other day...I didn't have anything to add. Your focus is on her...deciphering. I thought your listen and repeat was right on...

But didn't she not call?

LA

I'm of two minds, MDC...I rarely post when I don't have that direct connect...

See, I feel you're panting for Recovery...I know I was...if only my WH would cease contact and choose the marriage...and boy, did I build up my expectations...which is what made me a WW to begin with! Not a pretty sight, I tell you.

So, my experience, me panting for Recovery and swallowing air and spit...well, I'm concerned you might be doing that...your focus is strongly on her, not you.

Second mind...I went home for four days to my folks in another state...and woke up the fourth day crying...tears just streaming down...realizing I was throwing my marriage, my DH away...and I cried at the airport, on the plane...and on the drive home...missed my exit, even...got home late. First thing out my YS mouth was "Dad went looking for you. You're late." My heart soared! I had a garbled plea in my mouth like small stones...and he walked in...and I said, "You were worried?"

"Yeah. I got a date."

Crash and burn.

However...my recollection aside...(you aren't a FWS)...being away, as you described, can bring up stuff...coax the brain, release the heart...they can.

And I had depression for most of my life. Not easy to live with. This could be of aid in two ways...because I kicked my worst bout of it when someone turned to my DH and said, "How can you live with this? Divorce her!" Boy, did I snap out of it. LOL Of course, being a love addict helped...and I fought my depression tooth and nail for nearly ten years until I truly beat it...by understanding it. Didn't get all the way there until Recovery.

It happens.

So...you are listening and repeating...cutting back on the emails...staying present...looking inward...staying respectful...getting to your pain, your stuff...really examining the DJs towards you and others...correct?

What's to lose, dear man?!!

Two minds...your call. Your life. And yeah, I follow the other thread...you're getting great advice. I don't allow myself to wander down your train of thought too often...the what is he/she thinking request...because I can't find where the respect is...

We make our own hope...you can have it in the face of humiliation...it's yours. Find out your payoff in it and if you are being true to yourself and not self-manipulative...then own it!

LA

Thank you LA. Good to hear from you. I have been VERY focued on what she's thinking. That's correct. I just said it in my other thread - quoting you - that I cannot know or control what she thinks. Separate and equal.

I'm calming down since I got that email which touched me deeply because it was a direct counter to the fear I had about her being in contact with OM. And/or being ambivalent about the M. It's as if she read my thoughts exacatly and countered each one of my fears. That's why it was so striking.

And you're right, I've been panting for recovery. Anxious. More of the same right? Slow down. Breathe. One foot in front of the other. I know I make myself anxious by focusing so strongly on her. I'm out of balance when I do that and manufacture a lot of fear for myself.

Absolutely - we can have hope in the face of humiliation. One of the MANY very LARGE lessons I've learned in this. I am not damaged for this experience. I'm still whole.

Thanks for posting LA. You bring a very unique dimension to this that helps me align my insides. I'm also glad that the other MBers are posting to me now because their insight is extreamly valuable as well. And helps fortify my resolve.

Best to you.

You know what just occurred to me? During most of our marriage, my H perceived me as a nag...and I think I do that here...

I remind...yet I'm not perceived as a nag.

I'm sensitive to my repetition...and I don't get called a nag.

Maybe there is the true teammate spirit? Pure intent? In my marriage, I took the mother role and choked everyone with it...maybe that is the difference.

Could just be I remember the lure of going into my WH...as I did in my marriage...fear rising when I didn't know what he was thinking...had to feed myself DJs...formed my own pattern.

I loved breaking out of that, MDC...and I hear that in you, CL, and CJ and others...because I get to see my DH as new...and he remains new.

So you had a high fear day...driven by hearing what you've been wanting to hear to calm your fears...which drives the fear...like a feeding frenzy.

Humans are amazing and complicated, aren't we? How much of this is you feeling shame/guilt for not knowing about MB for the first A?

And as for two As in five years...well, that was nuthin' for me...exactly what Longhorn said...my coping skill was a killer...no maturity...straight survival (very twisted survival)...two could be the magic number...here is right where you needed to be...where she needed to be...and I liked Patriot picking out that you weren't "everyone;" that faceless mob of humanity, which included the children...you may well be her safe harbor (which she feels secure enough in to shred to tiny pieces...and still desire to sail back into)...

New everyday, MDC. We just are.

LA