I realize, even as I type this, that there is no way to answer my question, but I am curious about the different takes people here may have on it, so here goes....

I just learned that a close relative of mine is divorcing after less than 9 months of marriage (first for both parties). When this relative's mother called me to let me know, I was shocked because I hadn't heard of any trouble brewing - and now the "news" is simply that the young couple has separated and are divorcing. This person's mom went on to tell me some of details leading up to this decision, and I have to say... several of the "reasons" have gone on in my own marriage of 21+ years.... No infidelities - things like the husband is "so controlling", etc.

Most of my married life has been a struggle that I detailed here once but I think have since erased for fear someone would recognize me (not sure what awful thing would have happened if someone had - just feeling protective I guess). Let me just say, there have been issues of "controlling" and worse, but we're working through it... I guess.

So who is right? The person who sees major flaws early on and GETS OUT before children and years complicate things? Or the person who sees the flaws and stays?

I'm not sure why, but hearing scenarios like this shake me at my very foundation and cause me to wonder if I did the right thing staying in my marriage which is better, I think, than it ever was in the past... or maybe my expectations have just become very low. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

MAzingrace

What if both are the same journey? For the one who gets out due to flaws...and marries again...and finds flaws...and gets out...and marries again...because we take us with us.

Or for the one who stays, works on the flaws, struggles with their growth, often feeling the same way, different day, over and over again...

Managing your expectations is a healhty, GROWING thing. Funny how you see a lot less flaws and a lot more goodness by choosing this perspective.

You rock. You stayed. Same journey, a lot less mess...and you have learned so much.

If you believe replacing the person replaces the problems...then you're wrong. If you believe love is a choice and you own yourself, you're right.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Amen!

Thank you, LovingAnyway and Cinderella, for giving me your two cents worth - hey now I'm only a penny short of nickel!

It's complicated sorting out my thoughts on this issue. In my heart of hearts I think that staying and working on things is the "right" thing to do - unless there are problems (abuse, unrepented, ongoing affairs, etc.) that make that dangerous or otherwise impossible. The problem with me, I guess, is multi-faceted, but I'll try to break it down....

1) This is my second marriage. The first lasted 6 years, resulted in one child, and ended because between the ages of 27-28, I decided I "didn't love" my then husband. Looking back, I know that marriage could have been saved and made a very workable and even blessed union, but it ended at my insistence.

2) I met my second husband a short time after my divorce. In my immaturity, we rushed into a physical relationship, I became pregnant, and we married. Very soon into our marriage (the first year), I became aware of things about my husband that were unsavory (a pending foreclosure, a fondness of porn, and some illegal drug use). I saw an attorney, but never went ahead with a divorce because I felt I had already screwed up enough in my first marriage, and I wasn't going to bow out of this one without giving it my best.

Now here's where my relative's story messes with my mind, because the dysfunction my husband and I endured in the very early years of our marriage seems to be much more acute than the situation in this young girl's marriage that her mother described to me. As a result, I wonder (quite LOUDLY in my head) if I was really a coward to stay in such a relationship those many years ago.

Okay... back to my list:

3) Through the years, I emotionally shut myself off from my husband although in practice I played the part of the devoted wife and mother (the mother part was sincere, and we went on to have a total of three children together) although I "played the wife part" out of a strong desire to do the "right thing" as unto the Lord and for my children's sake.

4) We had MANY ups and downs through the years. I visited a total of five attorneys in the course of our 21+ years and even filed for divorce after 7 years when my husband's financial irresponsibility had taken all I could stand from our family's security. That court action was withdrawn when my husband made some adjustments to ensure that funds necessary to our household's functioning would be available.

5) We continued on in our marriage until a sort of midlife angst hit me, and I wanted out of this marriage in the worst way. I plotted in my mind how I would surely leave my husband as soon as the children were grown, which at the time was only five or so years away. My "midlife crisis" progressed, and I became pretty severely depressed. I was certain that starting over would "fix" all that, and last year sought the help of that fifth attorney and also began individual counseling after going to marriage counseling with my husband for about 6 months.

Okay, I'm getting to the next reason why this relative's story messes with me....

6) When I would protest to my individual counselor that I thought I had some "themes" in my life that pointed to something problematic within ME, he suggested that my problems were a result of poor choices I had made in relationships and further suggested that it was impossible for my husband to become the person I needed him to be and that I needed to be an advocate for MYSELF (ie. get out while the gettin' was still good). The word "abuse" was even thrown into the mix. The counselor rejected the notion that there were things about me that avoided true intimacy with my spouse and that avoided true problem solving. It should be noted here that, while there were real problems historically in my marriage, by then most of them were fixed or in the process of being addressed.

7) Late into my counseling and nearing the time that I planned to file for divorce, I came to the conclusion that the life I was now living was closer, in fact, to the ideal of the life I wanted to live than my life would be should I divorce again. I explained this to my counselor, told him I didn't feel he had been supportive of my marriage (he said he would adjust his methods if that's what I wanted <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />), and stopped both the individual counseling and the divorce proceedings.

8) My husband and I are actually doing better than we've ever done. I feel "loving" toward him. Most days, I have so much hope and gratitude for my family and even my marriage. I am no longer depressed although I struggle a bit with the blues on a cyclical basis but get over it in about 48 hours. I do need to combat worry on a regular basis as I believe it should have no part in my life as a Christian believer. In short, life looks good.

BUT THEN I HEAR STORIES SUCH AS MY RELATIVE'S and I swear they send me right back to a time, 21 years ago, when by all rights I, too, should have walked away from this man who is still my husband and the father of my children, and it's as if all my confidence fades.

I apologize that this post ended up being so long. I hope one of you managed to mull through it as your thoughts would be most appreciated.

MAzingrace

What I just read was a love story about you and you. It's beautiful. It's yours.

Think of this love story between the you, your self-image, and the real you, like two spouses. Your self-image was like your relative...ditched and ran from a marriage only six years into it...and your relative within 9 months...and the real you, your "self" wasn't known in that marriage, to anyone, even yourself (image)...and felt abandoned, betrayed.

Same through much of your current marriage...until you got the fact that you owned your life, your issues and by not making yourself known, you weren't protecting yourself, you were violating you! And you shared, with your H, after years of up and down, even authorities telling you it was about him...more self-betrayal...and you are now where you are, at the right time, in the right place, complete with the merging of selves..image with real, living authentically.

Does it GET any better than that? And your DH chose to stay, without a clue as to the true payoff...and he grew, also.

When you allow your judgment to kick in, even retroactively, you will lose acceptance. Like opposing water levels...or water and pressure...increase one, decreases the other.

You've already learned that. Don't backslide. The only way you could have gotten to where you are right now is the doing what you did, choosing what you chose, and living with all that knowledge that this was your journey, separate and equal, to all others.

Look instead to why you increased your judgment...which comes from fear. What present fears do you have, what disrespect for separateness has crept in, that is signalling you to take this retrospective now?

Self-care doesn't end, even after we merge ourselves to acknowledge we were always complete. What self-care have you dropped off and let your focus shift to others?

Share it. Only way to know it, sometimes. Sneaky devils.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((MAzingrace)))) So well named.

LA

Dear LovingAnyway,

Thank you for your kind and lovely post. I have reread it several times - pondering it and trying to soak up what you have written me in such poetic fashion.

Perhaps you could further explain your last lines?


Sometimes I'm slow....

MAzingrace

Sometimes I'm cryptic...obtuse. LOL We're even.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Being honest and open with "I feel" and "I believe" statements not only made me safe to be intimate with, but it also let me hear what the heck I was feeling and believing...by sharing it.

Is that better? Worse?

Stick with me...I'm worth it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Better, thank you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

With whom do you share this self-talk? Just speak it aloud? Post it like I did here? Chat with a female friend? It probably wouldn't have been appropriate to discuss with my husband.

MAzingrace

With your H...why not? What has appropriate got to do with trust, love and wonderings? You have chosen to love your H...you've chosen your life. What you're learning from your choices about who you are, what you do, and forming how you would like to react less and choose your actions more...would be great to share, wouldn't it?

I'm missing something.

My turn to tilt my head to the aside and make a sound like a perplexed puppy...

LA

I guess I don't think it's an appropriate conversation to have with my husband because he might feel rejected - like I'm wondering AGAIN if I should have stayed in the marriage. I think, if the shoe were on the other foot (mine), I'd be hurt. I guess I think that not every thought that pops into my head needs to be shared with my husband - especially if it has the very real potential to be hurtful.

Oh, MA...I didn't realize you were in charge of your H's emotions. Could this decision...to deprive ownership of H's emotions, be a factor in being intimate?

If you continue to withhold due to assumed responses, you will never be intimate with anyone. Your choices are too disrespectful.

How about reassessing what you base your beliefs on and see if your life will be different? I believe in you.

LA

Mazingrace...
I think your decision to stick it out may have come out of the fact that this was your second marriage with 2 children involved.... Had you found out the same things about your husband and it was your first marriage, no children involved maybe your decision would have been different.

About 2 weeks into my own marriage I decided I had made a mistake. I am now 10 years into the marriage... with lots of ups and downs... I would like to say that I should have asked for a divorce when I realized my mistake.... however, after knowing and loving my 2 beautiful babies... how can I say it was a mistake on my part.... they wouldn't exsist had I not stayed...
Of the relative was mine... I would have probably told her good job. Especially if it is something serious and you trust her as a responsible adult.

I didn't leave at the time because I was embarressed... the biggest part of my adult life has been based on the fact that I didn't want to lose face about rushing into a marriage.
This is something my husband and I discuss maybe to often with each other... we both agree that we wouldn't be together if it weren't for the kids.

I know this isn't my thread... but I will tell you just a bit of the history.. I rushed into marriage with my hubby after 9 months... You must take into consideration that we had spent 8 weeks together when we decided to get married.
He was living in Norway and I was working in the caribbean... the only way to be together was to get married.
After arriving in Norway... I had a HORRIBLE summer planning the wedding.. His friends weren't overly nice... didin't include us in things, didin't even make an effort to get to know me. His ex-girlfriend was butting into the wedding plans...calling him at home, at work etc. She was my worst enemy or so I thought.
After we were married and she continued to call him at work... I had enough... without telling my husband, I went over to her house and confronted her. I told her she didn't have to like me but needed to respect the fact that I was his wife. To make a Very long story short, the girl was NEVER his girlfriend... they had all made attempts all summer to get to know me however H told them I didn't want to go etc... he was trying to protect himself in his lie with my emotional well not even being considered.

That was a huge red flag I should have taken... through our marriage I have forgiven him... but never forgotten.... and still don't trust him. I catch him in small lies all of the time and don't bother to confront him because I don' want to fight about it.

I think had I left 10 years ago I might have found the right one for me... buyt now I am just workingon a daily basis to make it through. My accepting his lies and his controlling have brought me back to Norway with 2 small children, no family, no friends (really) no job and I am totally dependent on him... he got just what he wanted and it is my own doing....

I think your relative might have been smarter than myself.

Just my 5$ worth! Sorry so long!
skoffy

Skoffy...

Why do you believe there is a right one?

LA

MAzing, our stories are very similar, it was scary reading your OP. Whew.

I too was married a first time for about 5/6 years and I took my 2 tiny dd's and left him due to his drug use, poor communication and the fact that after 3 years of counseling, he still refused to join me. I wound up having an affair with his best friend and now am married to that man.

I find myself wondering the same things that you do: Is it ME? Why do I make such poor choices in my partners? Should I stay or should I go...likewise, my H has a propensity for some of the things your H does, ie., porn use, bad bad finances and owes mucho back taxes, poor intimate communication and lastly, he has lost all interest in our sex life over the past 5 of our 10 year marriage. What to do? I'ev asked myself that question so many times. I write in a journal, I see a counselor and I keep coming up with the same question....What is it about ME that I wind up in these relationships with emotionless men?...he's a good man, a good dad to my dd's, a good provider. He tells me he loves me and that I'm beautiful, etc., but he won't touch me and we can't seem to communicate beneath the surface.

I have told my H I don't see us together in the future. I've asked him why he married me, someone so different than what he obviously (obvious to ME, anyway) wants? I've begged him to tell me what it is about me that he won't touch me. He touches me then, grabs my boob or something like a really hard squeeze that actually hurts, like someone wincing before the shot.

I am hurt inside, wondering what's wrong with me and how come my second marriage has ended up so empty just like my first.

I don't quite follow "lovings" thoughts....is he saying that by asking or acknowledging your own inadequacies about your situation that it is what's been lacking? That you are the one who is holding true intimacy at bay? Please, Loving or AM, explain this to me - I think I'm almost there.

And AM, I totally get what you mean about being afraid of blabbing all this to your H and hurting his feelings. I have said all this to my H and he resents it, though now when I raise these issues, he laughs at me and tells me that I would never leave him or have an affair even if he never gave me sex again (??). I am confused by his response. He literally will laugh at me when I tell him how frustrated I am and how I feel. I share my feelings in a calm way, no anger (at least that I can tell) and he basically just looks at me while I'm talking but I can see he is someplace else. Then he'll tell me that I worry too much or something. As if my feelings aren't real or worthy of his consideration.

I have wanted to leave several times, but I don't want to put my dd's through another situation like that. They are 18 and 16, there is time enough that I can wait a few more years if need be. Let them finish growing up. So, I'm glad you posted this. It's really made me think.

Well, I hadn't checked this thread in awhile and was surprised today to see a couple joiner-inners (not a word, I know). Please, may I say, I felt the sadness in your posts, scoffy2 and sugarjo, but wanted to respond even so.

I think perhaps that I'm coming to a conclusion that the marriage relationship is a very interesting and daunting journey. I'm realizing that it is filled with a daily decision to move on amidst indecision. If one is biblically inclined, it is a real life allagory of Christ's love for his bride, the Church - stained by imperfection and yet redeemed by His love for us. It is an unveiling of things both beautiful and ugly about oneself and the person with whom one has united.

In my opinion (at least for today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />), there is no perfect fit in matrimony. There is no happily ever after. There is no soul mate.

There is, however, love... and forgiveness... and new beginnings... and redemption. There is a lifetime of opportunity to grow - closer to one's true self and closer to each other.

I, too, am so thankful for the children born from this very imperfect union. I am thankful for the understanding that I am (probably <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) just as flawed as my husband. I am thankful for second chances.

And, today, I am thinking that I was "right".

Until tomorrow,

MAzingrace

Wow...beautiful MA...thank you very much.

LA