AnnMarie,

I guess my take on this is to seek the separation and get things written down. Go tend to your mother, and deal with the grief of losing her or her prolonged recovery. Hopefully, the latter.

Then give this some time, the separation and the 6 months of waiting can do this for you. You can stop the divorce proceeding or suspend them as you wish. Speak to your lawyer about this.

Give this time and address one thing at a time. Your mother is #1 right now. Focus on that, and let the lawyer take care of the legal separation and that stuff. When your mother's situation is settled come back and see how you feel, and how your H feels.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you for your input. It's true - I used to respect and admire him, but I don't feel that at all now. I am still protective and I worry about whether he will be OK. Apparently that is not enough.

BTW, the night I confronted him about the A, he said he had already broken it off with her. I had been trying to call her cell phone number to find out about the A and she called me back while I was still there. No, he had told her that he wouldn't be able to call her for a while because he would be in Kansas City with his "dying grandma." He DID NOT break it off and in fact, changed the facts about my real, dying mother in Kansas City to make an excuse for her.

He had found from my Internet history that I had discovered the affair and had just waited around to see what I would do. In the meantime, he was keeping her hanging, too. That is one of the discoveries that made me feel like this can't be fixed.

Hi AnneMarie,
I'm in somewhat of a similiar situation, as Wh and I have
been married 8 years, and have no children.
WH began his A in a "pre-meditated" way also- he went online
looking at websites and "met" a woman there- eventually
talking, emailing and TM often, and then flying to meet her
in another city. All the while, he told me he was just busy
and stressed with work, etc. and denied an affair, even
thought his behavior was downright bizarre and I was quite
suspicious.
Two "business" trips later (he was actually helping the OW
move here to our town, for her job) he moved out and in with
her, although he still denied the A and told me he just
needed/wanted to be "alone and on his own'.
Two months later, the OW called me because she had become
suspicious of his "story". Hearing all the details from her
was hurtful, but also at least made me feel like I had been
right, wasn't crazy and wasn't paranoid.
He had told OW he "had been in an unhappy marriage for years
and didn't love me, that we'd been in counseling for a long
time and told we weren't "compatible and should divorce",
and numerous other things that weren't true.
OW kicked Wh out after finding out the truth, and he came
home for a night before renting a room elsewhere.
Would have thought that would have ended it, but WH told
OW more lies making it sound like I was lying and desperate
so OW again began dating WH. That went on for two more
months, until WH got a DUI on Christmas Eve and called me
for help.
That seemed to bring WH right out of the fog and back into
"clear thinking" and he apologized for hurting me, got a
counselor, got a psychiatrist, moved home, and committed
to the marriage, however he never completly ended contact
with OW and the A resumed back in Feb.
WH moved out of our house and into a place by himself last
month, and continues to see OW.

Although I feel totally repulsed and angry towards OW, I
realize that much of her behavior has been brought on by
the lies WH has told her. She initially acted friendly and
nice to me, and I even felt sorry for her because she was
in a new place, didn't know anyone, and apparently thought
she'd met "Mr. Fabulous", only to find out WH was really married, had way more "baggage" than he'd ever let on, and
had lied about so much. However, after she continued to see
him knowing he was married, and that I wanted him and our
M to recover, I lost all respect for her and view her as
a very desperate and pathetic person. While Wh was back at
home she constantly called him and our home phone, left
nasty messages for me, cussed and totally "went off" on
me, and mailed me a package with all the correspondence
between WH and she as well as graphic photos, so pretty
sick too !

If you do feel like you want to try to save your M, I'd
suggest reading everything here, as well as SAA and also
continuing to post here for support, ideas, and help.
You may also want to get into counseling, just to be able
to have additional support and ways to strengthen yourself.
It's very normal to have big changes in mood and emotions-
and to not know what you really want to do.
In that case, I think it's good to take your time, think,
talk about it with friend, family, counselor, minister and
here, and see how your feelings go with some time.

I'll be glad to correspond with you here- you can also read
my post called "Ow not letting go quietly"
Slammed







I do believe our marriage can be recovered and want to do
so, so I have read everything here, all the Harley books,
"Love Must Be Tough", "Divorce Busters" and everthing else
I could find. I've also had my own counselor since last
summer, and attended my Wh's appt. with his counselor and
psychiatrist until just recently.
Since he's very definitely a "cake eater" (can't decide
between me and OW so sits on the fence) I am going to the
"PlanB" later this week in hope it will give him a big dose
of reality and get him "off the fence".

I don't know what will happen but I felt I needed to make
every possible effort to save my M.

AM10:

get Firefox and set the preferences so that you don't save your his2ry once you quit the application. Sure, full disclosure with one's spouse is best, but you dont' have a functioning M at the moment.

As Pep said, there's a big difference between a WS who ends the A immediately and permanently on d-day and one that goes deeper underground. My W went deeper underground after d-day. It 2k RM getting remarried 2 finally kick her in2 withdrawal.

I would talk 2 a lawyer, and make darn sure that "adultery" is listed as the grounds for LS or DV or whatever you decide 2 do. It will NEVER be your fault. The consequences must be owned by your H. It's tough that it's uncomfortable for him, but he picked it.

If you haven't exposed the A 2 his and the OW's families, you should. Sooner is better than later.


In the end, the successes here have less 2 do with recovered marriages and more 2 do with recovered individuals. This is a trial/tribulation like no other in this life, and those who pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and sieze the oppor2nity this presents for them 2 become better people (FBS and FWS alike) - those are the true success stories.

-ol' 2long

2long,

Thank you for the last paragraph. I have vowed to become a better person from all this. Doh't know that I've made much progress yet because I kept saying things in anger to my husband that I knew would hurt him. Of course they were all true, but that doesn't help me improve.

My husband has no family that he keeps in touch with, so there would be no point in upsetting his grandma or stepmom.

I exposed the affair to her parents the night I confronted my husband. She is only 23 and my Internet research incorrectly told me that she lived at home. When her mom asked if she could take a message, I replied, "Yes, please ask her how long she has been sleeping with my husband." That's how I found out that he had already met her parents!

She was really upset about it, but still took him back, so it didn't affect the affair at all.

At this point the "adultery" fault is the only thing I have over him to motivate him to hurry up and sign the property settlement agreement that is favorable to me. When that is done, I can go be with my mother until she passes away. Then, I can consider whether this marriage could ever work.

If I sound a little wishy-washy, it is because I am. I go from hating him to loving him, from wanting to destroy him, to wanting to protect him, from wanting to end this now to wanting to make it work.

Still, you are right, if nothing else, I should become a better and wiser person from this. That's my hope anyway.

***I would talk 2 a lawyer, and make darn sure that "adultery" is listed as the grounds for LS or DV or whatever you decide 2 do. It will NEVER be your fault. The consequences must be owned by your H. It's tough that it's uncomfortable for him, but he picked it.***

Totally agree. Let the lawyers handle this, make sure the TRUTH is on the filing papers, and do not let your WH bully you into making this easy for him.

Appeasement never works. It just makes him think he can bully you again the next time. No consequences = no motivation to change.

If he is not man enough to own up to his own choices and make amends for them, then he is not man enough for you.

***If I sound a little wishy-washy, it is because I am. I go from hating him to loving him, from wanting to destroy him, to wanting to protect him, from wanting to end this now to wanting to make it work.***

Perfectly normal. Around here, it's called the roller coaster. We've all been on it. You sound strong and grounded and I am sure you will do well no matter what you decide.
Mulan

Slammed,

Wow! I hadn't seen your other post. In fact, for two weeks, I have been reading posts to see if anyone else was in a similar situation and how they handled it. I am so glad to finally hear from someone that can relate.

Did you every find out why he felt the need to start an affair? That is the bizzare and striking thing that we both have in common - our husbands didn't fit the Dr. Harley mode of falling for a friend or seeking a one-night-stand - they both purposefully sought out long-term affairs.

I'd really like to know what drove them to it. Obviously there were unmet needs, but wouldn't it have just been easier to ask their wives to fulfill them? I think most people don't mean to have an affair so they don't know they have a choice, but this is different.

Another thing you may relate with is that when I mentioned in a previous post that my husband was ashamed of the affair, someone wrote back that they were surprised based on my previous posts. He is acting terribly and he has been completely self-centered and cruel to me, BUT I married a wonderful, smart, and kind man. My postings make him sound pure evil and I don't mean for them to. I am also very confused about when he became so selfish, arrogant, and cruel. Where did the man I marry go? Your husband must have some great attributes, too, but do you ever see them anymore?

My H had already started pulling away from me and increasing his LB's prior to starting the affair and that is probably why I didn't put 2 & 2 together sooner. I just thought he was depressed and taking it out on me. Since he has indicated that he doesn't believe in clinical depression and that people who take antidepressants are weak and refuse to deal with the realities of life, I didn't push him on his obvious signs of depression. Wow, exactly who is weak and unable to deal with the realities of life now?

Anyway, I have already almost finished "Surviving the Affair." I ordered it the day after he left. I just don't know if I can execute anything near Plan A at this point. At first, I was too hurt and angry and now that I've presented him with a property settlement agreement, he won't speak to me.

How do you know that it is worth it to continue to fight for your marriage after all that has happened? Everyone else on the forum does it for the sake of the children or because they were together 25 years or something. How can you take so much pain and rejection and still try?

I hope you don't find those questions offensive, I just feel like our stories are so similar and I don't know that I have the strength or desire to keep trying.

AM10

Mulan,

You are so encouraging. Thank you for your insight. I can't believe it took me two weeks to get up the courage to start posting. I feel more supported than I have since this all happened. My friends are wonderful, but they can't relate with this.

Thanks!

hey ann marie

my H and i have been married for 15 years. we also have no children. like in yours and slammed situations he went online and started an affair with a woman he met on a dating site....she is married and had 4 children ages 6-16

they are now living together and have been for a year this month....

i don't get it at all since, like with your h my h NEVER wanted children.....in fact, he doesn't even like them

i don't have any good advice for you.....i'm still fighting for my marraige because i still love the man he used to be....the good...no...the wonderful man i fell in love with...i keep hoping that man will come back again

fighting to RESTORE my marriage is harder and scarier than letting it go....but it's what i want

if you need support....you've come to the right place

eav1967,

Thanks for the input. I am glad to know that I am not the only one with a hard time letting go after something like this has happened.

What is crazy about my situation is that I believe my husband when he says he doesn't love her. In fact, he told me that what he really liked about their relationship is that it is so shallow. Why throw away a good thing that you built over the years for something shallow and meaningless?

How old is your husband? While mine is only 37, I think that this is some kind of early-onset mid-life crisis. He has always been very sensitive about his age, his weight, his small bald spot, etc... I think getting the attention of a 23 year old made him feel young again. Between that and the ED drug, I think he is just trying to re-capture lost youth. The problem is that we aren't old yet! Both of his parents died relatively young - 49 and 63. Maybe he thinks he is past mid-life. I don't know and he won't tell me.

Even more frustrating, he likes her because she is fun. He admits that I used to be fun. What makes me so mad, is that he is the one that discouraged me from having fun. He hates it when I do anything that might cause attention in public. He hates dancing. He hates my singing. He hates going to movies. He doesn't pay attention to popular music. He always got irritated when we had to go to a friends house for dinner or to a party because it took him away from whatever solitary activity he was engaged in. I used to play jazz music and serve dinner by candelight every night. He found it irritating because he couldn't read a magazine at the table in such low light. How could anyone be fun in that situation?

Sorry about that tangent. Have you ever figured out what he sees in her? Dr. Harley recommends asking the WS what they liked about themselves when they were with the OP. My husband wouldn't answer that. I think he is embarassed about needing to feel younger than he is.

How do you plan on getting your H back if he has already moved in with another woman?

My current plan is to wait him out. If he truly doesn't love her, and if she has to put up with his depression and moodiness all the time, I think it will work itself out soon enough.

Sigh, I am very skeptical <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. In my experience, you should not believe a single word from a WS actively involved in an affair (and you can't get much more active than move in with an OW and become chummy with her parents <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />).

Remember, the one and only thing you can count on with an active WS is this - they lie. Period. So ignore the comments that he doesn't love her and the relationship is shallow.

No other motto applies better than this - "Actions speak louder than words". His actions are quite clear, his words meaningless.

I would second JL's wise advice - focus on your mother for now, and let your WH wallow in the fog of his own making. If the fog should lift, then you can talk; if not, his loss.

AGG

AnnMarie, I have to agree with AGG and others in being very skeptical. Although my WH and I are about 20 years older than you and your WH, we have lots of similarities, including the fact that my WH's OW was only 21 when they moved in together... he's still with her, as far as I know, 5 years later. All I can say is, don't make the mistakes I made by believing his words and ignoring his behavior. Please protect yourself! Spend as much time as you need to decide what to do, but don't relinquish your current legal position.

I agree with you about the MLC. There was a good post here a while back... I'll see if I can find it... ah, here it is:
Six Stages of Mid-Life Crisis

AnnMarie, I am so sorry to hear about your mother I truly hope she will come through this illness and add to your joy for many more days.

I can totally understand your position, I too moved away from family, friends and comfortable environment. I dont't speak the language (french) and am not comfortable with the culture of more liberal sexuality.

I would make one recommendation- do not decide anything from an emotional frame of mind. If need be see an IC, worked for me, have him also committ to IC. My WH committed to ten sessions and after 5 or 6 decided 10 would not be enough. Good news!

IF you decide to work towards recovery, I like the idea of the prenup- this way you have a shot at being with a man you are still in love with but without the financial concerns of ending the marriage without fault.

Please consider IC and MC I cannot stress enough how much they have been a positive factor for me.

Good luck.

Hi AnnMarie - I've caught up with all these posts since I last replied. You've gotten some good perspectives and views.

One thing you wrote left me breathless:
I nominate this for the best exposure line ever! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

What was her reaction to THAT????

Back to the matter at hand - to attempt to recover the marriage or move on.

I say bleed him dry.

Play the adultery card to the max and get him to voluntarily fork over as much as you can. Go for the jugular.

Play the role, pay the toll.

Now, some here will poo poo this approach as being self centered and not "forgiving" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> and you'll not be able to live with yourself blah, blah, blah.

Baloney.

This is war and you shouldn't take any prisoners. If you DON'T bleed him dry you'll see him laughing all the way to OW - at your "expense".

JMHO

WAT

AnnMarie,

I may be able to shed a bit of light on the folowing:


Your husband's personality and behavior sounds similar to mine. A seemingly good person... with high morals and values... doing something that seems totally out of character. I, too, did some of the persuing and initiating for my affair. And while I was doing it, it was almost a surreal experience. I didn't even feel guitly, and it AMAZED me that I didn't.

Six months post D-day, I'm still trying to sort out a lot of stuff, and get clear about why I did what I did... and what I need to do to change... so my thoughts are still a bit scattered and incomplete... but here are some insights I've gained so far:

Personality: From the description you have provided of your husband, he sounds like a perfectionist. I'm one, I think. We hold ourselves and everyone around us to very high standards. We are very critical of ourselves and everyone else. Our thinking is dominated by "should" and "must" and "black-and-white, right-and-wrong reasoning". Mistakes equal total failure. Criticism crushes us. And asking for help (ie, asking a spouse to meet an EN) is a sign of weakness and failure.

It is an exhausting and anxiety-provoking way to live.

There's also something known as a back-door or trap-door perfectionist -- People who become so overwhelmed with the self-induced pressure to be perfect, they (we?) find an escape hatch for our lives. Some of these people go so far as to live double-lives. Others find just a little isolated oasis from the everyday pressure -- like an affair.

Good reading on this subject: "The Enneagram in Love and Work" by Helen Palmer.

Also, It definately sounds as though there's a midlife crisis thing going on with your H. I think that was a factor for me too. But it's more than just wanting to regain your youth. I haven't done enough reading/introspection about this yet to help you out much in this area. But someone awhile back had a great thread going about this subject... maybe you could search for it and find it... or one of the vetereans could bump it up for you.

I want to make it very clear that I am not making excuses for your husband (or myself)... just trying to give you some possible insight into that nagging questions "why?". I imagine it eats at you.

If I'm right about your husband, I really think he needs to get himself into counseling. That is something HE must decide, however. You could make it a condition of reconcilliation, but unless he's willing to do the work, it won't do any good.

You might also do some reading on co-dependency. Your desire to "protect" him so much could be your undoing in all of this. It's not your job to protect him.

Good advice from the others about protecting your butt legally while focusing on your mom. I'm so sorry you're going through all of this, all at once.

(((((AM)))))) -- hugs.

--SC

[

Well I am new here and in a fog myself searching. However, I was intrigued by the post of smart cookie and the description of the perfectionist. It is me! I have been struggling with the perfectionist tendancy myself for days and its no wonder I live under condemnation because I so condemn myself for everything I do...

As far as what you are doing I can't shed any light on it..as being the perfectionist I can only see what I am doing wrong! My husband has tromped on me and I too am trying to protect him! I can't offer any advice that would help you, but my heart goes out to you. It hurts and its hard.

Hi AnnMarie,
Sorry, took me a while to reply- I have limited time on a
computer right now.

Like you, I have definitely had a need to know why the A
started. I've read, thought, talked to my IC, and even WH
to try to understand this since (as you said) it'd made so
much more sense and have saved all this pain and drama if
the H would have just said "I'm not having my needs met"
(or whatever the case) and been willing to work on it rather
than going out and looking for someone else !

I know the Harleys generally consider that most A's start
when a spouse has unmet "EN's", however in all the thinking,
talking, reading, and counseling I've done I really don't
believe that this was the major factor in my WH's A because
I feel (and he has indicated) that I did a good job in my
meeting his EN's. In my WH's case, I believe a major issue
in his getting involved in the A was his feeling unhappy,
discontent and bored with life in general, and instead of
talking about it, trying to do something about it, or making
an effort to get help, he went out and looked for something/
someone who would give him some ego-boosting, variety, and
"excitement".
Since the A started, WH has been diagnosed with bipolar
disorder (already has obsessive-compulsive disorder) which
does cause a person to be moody, negative, grouchy and
depressed as well as having poor "impulse control" and
engaging in inappropriate behavior, all of which fit WH.
I think this illness was an underlying cause of his feeling
unhappy, discontent and bored, and had he known this and
been under treatment and correct medication might have
kept him from the things he did to lead up to the A, but
no way to know that, and it still does not take away from
WH's having known right from wrong and electing to initiate
the A. (just helps me to perhaps understand things a little
better).
My IC has also pointed out that WH sounds very much like he
is in the midst of mid-life crisis. He too is very conscious
about his age, his having gained some weight, his thinning
hair, having "newer, fancier toys and gadgets", a nicer car,
a nicer house, more success, etc. (He's 38)

I do remember lots of great attributes and things I loved
about H, as well as many good, special times we have had
together and so many plans we've had for the future.
That is the person and the times that I really do miss now.
At times, even during his A, I have seen "glimpses" of my
"real" H, but then he's back in the fog and back to being
the WH. I think part of what makes the WH nasty, ugly and
so uncaring about us is the inner turmoil they feel since
they are often breaking their own "code" of morals, acting
totally out of character for themselves and making complete
messes of their lives and they know it.

At times when my WH has been "broken up" with OW (this has
happened several times) he has said some very negative things about the OW indicating he does know how she really
is and doesn't believe she's so wonderful, yet he's gone
back with her several times. My best understanding of this
is in agreement with the general MB thought of A's being
an "addiction". I also think the OW has some real "issues"
and has shown herself to be very controlling, manipulative,
"clingy", and obsessed with WH.
What did the parents of OW say when you exposed ?

I understand feeling "protective", and think it's only
natural when we care about and have had lives closely interwined with our H's. The hard part is realizing that during the A this is not our H we are dealing with, because they have become the WH and a person totally different than who we married. As they are not protecting and caring about
us at the time, we have to take care of and protect ourself,
physically, mentally, financially, etc.

In my state, divorces are "no fault" so no grounds needed
and so far, my WH has been good about continuing to pay the
larger chunk of our bills and expenses so have not done a
legal seperation.

To answer your last question- I don't know how things will
end up, or whether my time,effort, patience and persistence
will result in our M being restored.
If it does, then I'm sure I will feel it was all worth it.
If it doesn't, I'll at least feel that I made every possible
effort and did everything I could.
Only each person knows what they can "live with", how much
or long they want to try, and when it's time to "call it
quits", and only you can decide what you want to do, but
at least you are checking out your options, thinking about
it carefully, reading up, and getting all the info you can
to make a good decision you can feel okay with.
Best-
Slammed

LetSTry,

Thank you so much! I recognized a lot of my H in the "Six Stages." I really need the reminder not to believe what he says right now, because of course I believe what I want to hear.

H left me a voicemail Tuesday night, claiming to be in Baltimore, which is pretty far from OW's home. He also told a friend that he is no longer seeing her. Of course, he is likely still lying. The friend had to harrass him with phone calls to get him to call back and talk at all.

H e-mailed me a memo today from the president of his company saying that their company is being bought out and that they will find out soon what it means to them. His note said, "Thought you might get a laugh out of this."

It probably means that he could lose his job, but the company buying them is a huge international corporation, so he may find an even better position.

Unfortunately, I was hoping to secure my finances with a signed property-settlement agreement before we proceed with either recovery or divorce. Now that he thinks he may lose his job, he won't want to promise me anything. I think I'll see what he has to offer and then contact my lawyer.

I hate to hear that your H is still with OW. That is discouraging. I know there is no answer to this, but why do people choose to harm and destroy so many lives (including their own), when they could be happy if they would just work a little on the lives they have built?

WAT,

Sorry about the slow reply. I had a 12-hour work event yesterday and was too tired to get online when I got home.

Regarding the OW's mother, she didn't seem all that upset when I told her that her daughter was sleeping with my husband! She only said, "Well, I don't know anything about that." She sounded concerned, but skeptical. Her 23-year-old daughter has a 2-year-old child from another man who wouldn't marry her, so maybe she is used to this stuff.

After my WH told me that he had talked to OW and she had broken it off, he mentioned that she was most upset about her family getting involved. Like I was supposed to feel bad! I realize she didn't know he was married and I did feel a little bad for her, but I also had a correct sense that she wouldn't be staying away. Sure enough, she is the one that called him to resume the A.

On my last post, I mentioned that my WH's job may be in jeopardy. How am I supposed to bleed him dry if he is unemployed? That robs me of one of my biggest threats in getting a favorable separation agreement - exposure to his boss! I know he can't justify all the business trips to OW's town because the customers there are some of his smallest accounts. I also bet he expensed some meals and phone calls that he shouldn't have. Now it won't matter and he'll be trying conserve his money instead of buying off his guilty conscience. Maybe I will have to take this to court!

Of course, I do see some poetic justice here. I made a lot of sacrifices to support his career and it was the job that gave him the opportunity to have the A. It also demanded so much travel and so much time, that it led to many of our problems. I don't really want him to lose it, but it would put us in almost the same position of losing our marriage, our home, and our jobs (he already lost his mother). Maybe then he'd have a better sense of what I am going through.

Yes, I still care what he thinks. That's one of the most unfair things for a BS, we still love the WS and don't understand why they don't have more compassion for us.

Slammed,

Wow! That also sounds like my husband. He never seemed to want to do anything that I consider fun, yet he seemed bored. He was doing great on the job and it appeared to make him somewhat arrogant, yet he also needed constant reassurance.

I really liked the message from LetSTry with the link to the "Six Stages of a Mid Life Crisis." That also sounded a lot like my WH (probably yours, too). He has seen the 1st signs that he isn't going to by young and strong forever and getting the attention of a young, fit (they are both runners) woman had to make him feel good.



I have noticed this as well. He'll feel guilty about violating his own moral standards one minute and then say something hateful to me the next. Apparently, I need to study more psychology, because I don't get it. When I feel bad about doing something I know is wrong, I apologize and try to be better!

Regarding the separation, up to this point I have been glad to be in a fault-divorce state. The BS typically comes out better they do divorce, because it wasn't their fault. However, I am hating it now. It makes it hard to both work on a marriage and get a settlement. If I decide to just work on the marriage by getting him to move back in, I lose my grounds for fault (my only leverage to get a better settlement). As I push for the settlement, I am definitely not following Plan A and I am further alienating him. Now, like him, I wish I could have my cake...

Thanks for all the input and advice. The best part of the MB discussion forum is knowing you are not alone and that you, too, WILL survive this!