My FWW posed this question to me, and I'd like to hear some opinions.

I'll try to give a little background and restate the context of my FWW's question. I'm doing this from memory, so hopefully I won't misquote my FWW.

FWW (MargieThomas) posts and reads here. She wanted to ask this question, but feels that whenever a WS asks a question (that appears inconsistent with MB principles) they get a bunch of 2x4's and get told to just follow the program.

I'll try to give an example. MT says she has a great time when we are together, recognizes that I've made some changes, and is trying to follow our plan laid out with MC from SH. However, she still doesn't feel a "spark" for me. The advice she gets from SH and others on the MB board is "give it some time, it will happen." She is concerned about what if it does not happen and/or what if the plan laid out by SH (meeting EN's, avoiding LB's, etc.) is not the right or most efficient course of action. Thus her questions, did anybody have success with an alternative approach? Did some principles work better or worse and why? Did you change your plan and why?

I'll pause here and say, this type of question from MT makes me a little nervous. I tend to agree with most of the MB principles and I have a strong vision of what our M could be in the future if we follow the plan. I am not really at the point of questioning the plan, I'm still more interested in doing a better execution. I think we both have made tremendous improvements, and I also think we both have some areas to improve on. The biggest constraint, IMO, is that due to work, MT is still only home an average of 4-5 days every 2 weeks. Its been that way for about a year. (Please don't say this means the A continues. I believe NC has been solidly in place since January and MT has been very transparent since then.) The question makes me nervous because a part of me thinks MT is asking because she feels the MB principles won't work. Whereas I feel they will work, but we must have more time together.

I really struggle talking to MT about this. Mainly because I do not seem to have the ability to express that I believe in the MB principles regardless of my own situation. In a situation where one S was unhappy, felt the other S was happy, and the unhappy S decided to leave the M, espousing the MB principles is a hard sell. I think MT has a hard time believing that I was not happy before, I did not just decide to accept unhappiness, and that all I want is to go back to the way things were. No matter what words I use, it all sounds like I have an agenda and am just saying the right things. I know actions are the key, and I'm doing the actions, but things have not clicked. Early on in MC, when the plan was laid out, MT said, "that's you. You can decide to do something and you do it". This actually hurt my feelings a little. It feels like it discredits the changes I've made. Its not that easy for me. So my questions are more around, what additional actions did you do to make things click.

Appreciate your opinions.

WHAT alternative approach? Describe.

Pep

YES! Divorce works very well for coping with infidelity.

This is what she's really considering, I bet. It does work.

But, assuming this is not what you wanted to hear, there are descriptions out there from other minds on how to deal with infidelity. Check out Michelle Weiner Davis' "Divorce Busters.' But, it's basically the same stuff repackaged.

You might shop around and find a good new car in lots of places, made by different manufacturers with different styles and different costs. But in the end, each car has four wheels, an engine, requires upkeep, and provides transportion. The main decision is deciding you're gonna buy a car or you're not.

Same thing with recovering your marriage. You're gonna try or you're not. The mileage you get may vary.

Post deleted by Cherished

Pep - Fair question, but I honestly don't know for sure.

Since we are in recovery, plan A/B is not applicable per se. SH has advised focusing on conversation, affection, SF and recreational companionship. He advises, because it is MB opinion that a M must have these 4 EN's.

My thoughts are to follow the plan and the "spark" will return. I think the time apart is a big issue and SH has said that as well, but MT and I have agreed to do the best we can and MT has laid out a plan to address the work/home balance.

That said, I think MT still has doubts about will it work and wants to hear others opinions. I believe her theorey is that everyone who remains on the MB boards are only the people who follow the MB plan and were happy with the results and this offers a skewed population for opinions.

As for alternatives, did anyone go a different route than the EN's that MC suggested. i.e. MT feels that affection is not really a big EN. Did anyone separate and did that work? Did anyone try meeting certain EN's for a long time, it have no effect and they tried some other EN's to focus on. I'm not saying these are my recomendations, just some ideas for alternatives.

I guess the net of it is, what MB principles worked best and why for your situation. What MB principles did not and why? I guess trying to delve a little deeper into the program about what works best for certain situations.

Again, I'm trying to start the discussion for MT, so maybe she will read and clarify her question

For her or for you?

If she doesn't have much desire for affection, then it's not a "big" EN for her. She has no say on what's a big EN for you. Pretty simple, huh?

Hey, let's face it. This isn't a cookbook. People were recovering from infidelity LONG before MB was a twinkle in Harley's eyes. Some people recover from infidelity and NEVER HEAR about MB. This is not rocket surgery.

WAT
--------------
Before you know it they'll start claiming that people are made of atoms - just like rocks and stuff.

Cherished read and posted ahead of me, but with the same impression.

rprynnne:

At least in part,
your background is answering your own question.

It appears that you are NOT spending (at the minimum) the recommended 15 hrs Per Week together (doing more fun, relaxed and Together time things).

Hard to claim a system or program doesn't work ......when one is Not following the plan or at the least is picking and choosing What parts they want to follow and what parts they don't.

The whole works much better when done in conjunction with the rest.

However,
hard to make a dent in both EN and getting past old resentments -(be they are A related or just past martial issues)- with only a couple of hours of trying to reconnect a week.

In this case,
it is BOTH the time AND what you Do With It that makes all the difference.

rprynne and MT...

In the beginning I felt the same way about MB...I would speculate that most FWSes that come here do at first...probably because somewhere in the back of their minds they are still looking for reasons for their affair...I mean hey, if "it" was there all along why would they have strayed in the first place right? It's not fun to realize that you were completely wrong...it's part of the process though...I myself came here and said, "there is more than one way to skin a cat"...Additionally, I said that words like "love bank", "lovebusters" and the like were "silly" and "juvenile"...and then I jumped to the ever popular, "MB is a cult"...

But I posted...and kept reading...all the while going through the motions...I got 2 x 4'ed, and IMHO, that was GREAT for a couple of reasons...1. The times that I got those were what caused me to really look at me, and my perception, and my attitude...even if I didn't say so, the conflict made do some much needed personal inventory...and 2. When I felt "beat up", it opened up dialogue for Mr. W and I...allowed him to be "on my side", it seemed to me, because he listened and was supportive, it put us "on the same team", so to speak...

In my withdrawal we spent tons of time together-Mr. W planned a lot of things that we considered "fun"...and he continued meeting my emotional needs...gradually I got on board meeting his...believe me, no one was more shocked than I that the "spark" returned...but it did...more powerfully than anyone's post could ever have made me realize...seeing/feeling is believing...

So MT, you fell in love with rprynne once, logically it's really not such a stretch to believe that it could happen again(even if in the back of your mind you don't think so, because you are "different", or your situation is "unique")...What if MB is the way to go? Are you willing to risk not being more fulfilled than you ever could have dreamed? Why would anyone risk that? And further,if it wasn't possible, why would anyone here lie about it?

From SAA...


Also from SAA...


There is so much to gain from MB...MT, what specifically are you having problems getting on board with? Be Honest, I'll bet I can relate...as will other FWSes here I'm sure...I encourage you to post...don't worry about 2 x 4's, as I've said above, you may find them useful on some level...I'll be glad to answer anything that I can for you...

Best,

Mrs. W

Hi rprynne,


No, really? That happens? Shocking!! (Sorry, couldn't help myself)



As you may know, I can relate to MT's perspective. I struggle with the very same questions and feelings (or lack thereof).

I think the MB principles, by-and-large, are great -- but with one glaring hole: Absolutely no attempt to dig into the INDIVIDUAL'S childhood wounds, issues, problems, however you want to label it, that are contributing to marital problems.

I remember, the very first time I read through the basic concepts, I thought they made good, common sense. But the one thing that kept nagging at the back of my mind was: If ALL there really is to romantic love, is the filling of another's love bank (by eliminating love busters and meeting emotional needs) then any person on this planet could fall deeply in love with any other person on this planet simply by following the prescribed steps. I'm just not sure I buy that.

There is another type of marraige therapy that very closely resembles MB called Imago therapy. It was developed by a man named Harville Hendrix. He wrote the book "Getting the Love you Want." I started reading it awhile back and put it down because I decided that, in my case, my "childhood issues" were big enough that I really needed to work on those awhile in IC before I could even begin to accurately assess (and effectively address) what has going on in my marriage.

Anyway, from what I've read so far, MB and Imago are very, very similar. The biggest difference is that MB says you fall in love with people who fill your love bank... Imago says you fall in love with people who closely resemble (in action, not appearance) your childhood caretakers (usually parents) in order to resolve old childhood wounds. And that one must work through those wounds with their partner and heal them... in order to have intimate, romantic love. (This is a very rough, off the top of my head, description... and I may be misrepresenting it somehow... so take it with a grain of salt)

Now, I recently read something from another poster who's studying Imago and also counseling with one of the Harleys. She said she asked the counselor (Jennifer maybe?) about Imago, and was told that it actually CONFLICTS with MB for the reason I stated above. But I don't understand why it has to be one or the other. Personally, I think BOTH approaches contain key pieces of the puzzle.

Let me also say... if the whole IMAGO theory of attraction sounds like far-out psycho-babble to you... well, it did to me too. Even a little creepy. But I think if you get the book, it will make more sense. I'm not sure I explain it very well... and frankly, it's not something that boils down well to a few paragraphs.

Why don't you ask her if she'd be willing to read the Hendrix book? You, too. The good news is, it's so similar to MB in so many ways, if she decides it really is a better fit for her, you probably won't feel as though you have to abondon anything that has worked for you (MB).


HOWEVER... after all that... I must say that I don't see how either approach will work for the two of you unless you find a way to spend more time together. If I remember correctly, it's also a requirement of Imago to spend a lot of time together. Any chance your sitch will change with regard to this?

--SC

I think this is the reason for the lack of the "spark" that she feels.

The way I interpret the MB Approach is sort of like WAT. It repackages a lot of other systems but it is SIMPLE and gets to the BOTTOM LINE on the BASIC INGREDIENTS for a ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP in the here and now. It is more BEHAVIORAL than the IMAGO SYSTEM..BTW, my FWH and I attended an IMAGO WORKSHOP many years ago and ended up arguing during the workshop (long story)..Too bad we didn't know about LBs ..

Agree with what Smartcookie stated about spending time together. It is doomed to failure unless you sepend time together. And seperation never works, unless you define success as DIVORCE.

That being said, Dr. Harley addressed the issue of the contribution of childhood issues, etc, impacting current marital problems on his radio show a couple of a weeks ago. In his TRAINED opinion, 99% of marital problems have NOTHING TO DO with the past and everything to do with the PRESENT. He stated that exploring past issues is a complete and total WASTE OF TIME that has ZERO impact on marital problems. Rather, his success is contributed to his focus on PRESENT behaviors. This is WHY he is successful where other marriage counselors ARE NOT. He doesn't need to go into the past to address CURRENT behaviors.

As far as 2x4's, I would have to point out that bullsh** has a very short shelf life around here. The folks who usually get the 2x4's are often the ones who aren't being honest with themselves or others. But, that won't run off someone who is sincere about saving their marriage.

Well, alrighty then!!

Thanks, Mel..very useful and helpful information...

(emphasis mine) From the cover of "Getting the Love You Want": "Harville Hendrix, Ph.D., in partnership with is wife, Helen LaKelly Hunt, M.A., M.L.A., originated Imago Relationship Therapy, a unique healing process for couples, prospective couples, and partners. Harville is a pastoral counselor with more than thirty years experience as an educator and therapist. He works with couples in private practice, conducts couples workshops, teaches marital therapists, and gives public lectures." (The point being -- it certainly appears that Hendrix's "opinion" is also "trained")


Well then, I guess my situation probably represents the other 1%. I always suspected I wasn't "normal", lol. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I certainly don't have all the answers, but I'm pretty sure that a lot of my current behaviors and recent poor choices (and I suspect, my hustand's as well) are/were influenced by my past. It seems to me that there are a lot of other people here who also feel that their personal recovery (dealing with their own demons) was paramount in their marital recovery.

BTW, Hendrix also claims success where others have failed. But who knows?

--SC

Cookie



Those things, while fascinating, are not going change what constitutes GOOD MARRIAGE BEHAVIOR.

A long term analytic therapist would *salivate* at the prospect of digging around old wounds ... but doing that is often a self-centered act ... and GOOD MARRIAGE BEHAVIORS will not look very different no matter what the old individual history may be.

If this was a GOOD PARENTING discussion, the basic tools of good parenting behavior do not significantly alter no matter how lousy a childhood one had.

The BEST PRACTICE GUIDELINES I am encouraged to follow at work are not there to discourage me from knowing myself, but they are independant from any baggage I bring to my job site.

BEST PRACTICES are good for everyone to pay attention to ... the non neurotic as well as the neurotic

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <~~~ up to YOU Cookie to decide what category I am in !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Cookie...

I think that you are on to something here...I thought so from your first post on this thread...funny, I was just talking to Mr. W about what you had said here...I told him that I feared telling you what I thought because of how you might take it from me...he encouraged me to post, so here goes...

What allowed you to choose to have the affair may very well have to do with your childhood issues...I don't know what yours are, so obviously I couldn't say...It is my opinion that the fateful "choice" to have an affair is about the personal issues of the WS, whatever they may be...

The marriage issues are completely separate...and I really liked and agree with Pep's post to you about that...

Anyway, something to explore...understanding the difference for me was quite an eye-opener...

Best,

Mrs. W

Pep,


I agree. I know of some people who stay in therapy FOREVER... turning over the same ol' rocks... over.. and over... and over... and over again. GOOD GRIEF! I'm certainly not advocating that, nor do I intend to be one of those people! I just think that in some (maybe even most?) cases, that a combination of psychologial AND behavioral approaches makes sense.



Good analogy. And very true. It seems to me, however, that good parenting comes alot easier and more naturally for someone who has successfully overcome their own childhood baggage.




Ha! I would NEVER presume to catagorize you at all! You, Pep, are in a category all your own! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It is also interesting to note that Dr. John Gottman has a marriage institute and has scientifically studied couples' behavior toward one another and can predict with a high degree of accuracy which couples will eventually divorce based on their behavior. It is all well and good to find the source of your behavior patterns, perhaps rooted in the past, but it won't do you one bit of good if you don't CHANGE the harmful behaviors and ramp up the good ones. The MB principles get you behaving in the direction of good and successful M's. You can indiviually counsel to find past issues and deal with them. This can happen simultaneously.

IMO the WS's reluctance to embrace MB principles is rooted in the fear that they actually WILL work and then they must face all that they have done and the hurt they have caused so many due to the A and realize that there truly was NO reason to do it and no excuse and if they had only turned inward and done all that they could to change their M, none of this ever had to happen. The rationalizations about the unhappiness of the M and it not being their fault have gone on so long and the "happiness" they have felt in the fantasy of their A make it difficult to step back into reality and CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOR.

So true!

Anne...

I also agree...Additionally, the choice to have an affair is very outward focused one...Searching for happiness outwardly is an attempt to avoid painful inward reflection for the WS...the problem with continuing on the selfish outward journey is that the WS will continually repeat the same patterns of problematic situations until they face and change what's inside them...A wherever you go, there you are situation...

Mrs. W

Wow - thanks for the responses.

I'll try to answer some of the questions asked.

WAT - MT does not feel like affection is a big EN for her. However, SH has me working a plan to meet that EN. Now, I'm happy to do it, in fact I enjoy doing it. But this is a good example of what I think MT is getting at. She does not rank affection very high, but SH says just keep working on it because its 1 of 4 essential for romantic love. I understand and agree with his point. This one is really hard for me and I get real confused. MT says its not high on her list, yet she has also told me that she was unhappy because I did not do affectionate things. So, I struggle with is SH right and MT just doesn't realize it, or is MT right and SH just doesn't believe it. I think MT would say she feels some similar things about the plan.

Mrs. W - agree with what you said, maybe its just a matter of time. I guess my big fear is that I think, and this is scary to say, but I think MT doubts if she ever fell in love with me. I believe that she did, but I guess that's not my call. Anyway, if she never did, why would she now?

SC - On one point, I do think the MB principles suggest that meeting EN's and avoiding LB's could make anyone fall in love with you. I think sometimes that is the hard thing to buy in all of this, but it is most likely true. No, it does not cast a spell over the object of affection, they still have a choice. But I think the theorey is that unless you consciously choose to not accept the recieving of EN's, or summarily rule out the person, given the opportunity if another person meets your EN's you will have romantic feelings for them. I think many WS/FWS just don't want to believe this. Accepting it is a fact is just too painful. As to childhood issues. I personally think they do play a role. Based on Mel's quote, maybe Harley disagrees. What I have found with them in my own MC, is a position that is slightly less rigid than the quote Mel provided. What they have implied is that for married people, the single biggest source of unhappiness is a bad M. There position seems to be focus on the biggest issue (the M) first rather than other issues. Once the M is repaired, their experience says that the other issues take care of themselves. I don't know whether I agree or not, but I think this is their position.

Finally, on the time together. Yes MT and I are aware of that and we have a plan in place to address it.