Well, I find myself inadvertently, but inextricably dwelling again! From fretting over all my remaining unanswered 2uestions and reading 2 much on MB.

Been 2 wrapped up in Mortarman's and Good_Father's current dramas 2 be able 2 think clearly.

I've been more successful in the past few years than now in focusing on unconditional love, forgiveness, and living in the now. Lately, I've let my mind wander off-track.


...I was just thinking about the discussion of MM's porn use from before d-day (and apparently a 2ple times during plan B), and how people have suggested that has detracted from his ability 2 reconnect with his W.

And I find myself wondering... ...does my W think I spend 2 much time on MB and not enough time talking 2 her? Lately, I have. No question. Even though it isn't much (and it's not porn... ...right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), and it's always during breaks at work or after she's gone 2 bed (2 sleep, really; I always go 2 bed with her, and don't get up or do anything else until she's asleep - then, a few hours later, my snoring wakes her up and she goes 2 the spare room). But so long as she perceives it as undermining our ability 2 reconnect (or maybe she still hopes I'll accept RM as her "friend"), well, I've still got a problem 2 deal with that I'm not dealing with effectively, for whatever reason.

Having said that, I still see signs that there may be contact ongoing - based on my observation that SHE doesn't appear 2 be making much effort (a DJ, my bad), or is conflict avoiding (a DJ, my bad), herself. But it could always be something else, still (like real withdrawal, for a non-trivial example that might look negative but really be positive).

More importantly, all the dwelling. It's all got 2 go, and stay gone.

I need us 2 just be, like I seem 2 be so good at suggesting others do. If we can do that without fretting over our what our imaginations are inferring the other is doing all the time, maybe we can really find out whether we want 2 continue 2gether or not.

In the end, I won't stay with her long term just because I promised 2 31 years ago, even though she broke her promise 2 do so. I won't stay with her just because it's "the right thing 2 do."

If we stay 2gether, it'll be because we want 2, not because we think we have 2.

Anyway... ...yep, this is one of those many posts over the past 4.5 years where I say I'm going 2 stay off MB more often than I have.

Don't worry, I won't go far. In fact, I'll probably just chime in on the lighter threads more than the heavy ones, and spend more time as Qfwfq over on iloveulovedotcom, and not get really all that gone.

...after this thread burns out, that is! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

So, all we have to do is keep this thread going?

SS

I hear where you are coming from 2long my friend. Don't wander off too far though.

Pretty much! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I admit, you made me laugh.

Hmmm,
I see you have concerns. Things could be better.
For a long time (forever?) she wouldn't talk about marriage with you. It may be that she still won't.

If she doesn't asnwer your questions, you can always comment on that too.
"You are so cute when you're quiet, no wonder I love you."

SS

Some food for thought (like... where is our mouth for thought 2 feed on this food, anyway?):

Something Spacecase posted in answer 2 a 2uestion I had about forgiveness on the public iloveulovedotcom forum over 3 andahalf years ago:

"Forgiveness is understanding and accepting that everything happens as it should, and that whatever perceived "wrong" that has been done to you is in fact, a gift, brought into your human experience for the purpose of spiritual learning and growth.

Therefore, it is the recognition that nothing wrong has occured, and that through the preceived "wrong" you have felt, you have now seen yourself better, and something in yourself that you needed to face and address.

As such, forgiveness lives as an acceptance of this, with your thanks to the person who "wronged" you, and the knowledge that through the experience you have grown.

The wrongdoer does not even know this has happened, and probably should not know."

-ol' 2long

So this is the goal?

Your goal?

SS

Yes, it is.

"As such, forgiveness lives as an acceptance of this, with your thanks to the person who "wronged" you, and the knowledge that through the experience you have grown."

I know plenty of wrong doers who would eagerly take any kind of thank you as a request for more doing.

I know plenty of wrong doers who would eagerly take any kind of forgiveness as permission for more of the same.

I do agree too much MB is a bad thing. Not in my M, but I’m not getting work done on time …

At least I will still be able to harangue you at the other place.

With prayers,

And what a glorious goal it is!

Thank you 2long for posting this.

And the "wrong doers" can go right on doing wrong, but if enough people were to learn this one single lesson, this lesson that we will ALL eventually learn, then there will be that many less "wrong doers".

Recognizing that no wrong was done to us, does not mean we have to keep re-living the "wrong"...it in fact frees us to view another reality, one where no wrong is perceived, and therefore none exists.

We only get the lesson until we learn it, after all.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Appy:

True, except:

"The wrongdoer does not even know this has happened, and probably should not know."

I think SC said this particularly 2 address your point.

This is an example of a private matter, not a secret one, as indicated by this definition of the difference between secrecy and privacy:

"The Difference Between Secret And Private

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree."

Yes, if I believed in reincarnation and someone found out who wanted 2 use that against me, then they probably could find a way 2 do so.

If my W were 2 find out that I'm striving 2 thank her, internally, for the gift of the past 15 years' experiences, and choose 2 use that against me 2 justify a continuation of her LTA or another A, then she wouldn't be someone I'd want 2 be with anymore, and the sooner I learn that the better off I'll be, right?

If, on the other hand, my goal were revealed accidentally or purposefully 2 someone who could empathize with that desire from a personal growth viewpoint (like my W, for example), then they might learn something about me that might then bring us closer 2gether. But it wouldn't need 2 be revealed (except as an outward expression of my bubbliness), unlike a harmful secret that shouldn't be kept in the first place.

That crap make sense? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

I send my "forgiveness" up to the Holy Spirit (Jesus for me) to hold until the other is ready to receive it...and when he is, it will be there for him...for his healing as well.

It's metaphysical in philosophy, so applying words to it to try and convey the concept can cause great angst and confusion...but I really believe that we are so connected it is "felt" and does affect the other person/people involved, even if no words are ever spoken to that person about it.

And to me, this is a good thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think that one of the reasons for marriage has to do with the life long path that can help to 'perfect' ourselves. We find out lots of stuff about ourselves that needs work on.

We can see the reflection of ourselves in our spouse's reactions and see the stuff that we need to work on.

Actually, all the challenges and ups and downs of the marriage relationship, when one sticks with it, 'for better or worse' can help our own spiritual growth.

Just think how much many of us have grown and learned from our experiences with infidelity. Had we thrown in the towel right away, as many do, we may have missed the opportunity to grow by working through the pain.

It helped us to work read the books together, listen to the tapes together, and do the exercises in the MB followup program from the Weekend. I am assuming your W would not be open to doing even the MB homestudy course with you. It is hard work but worth the effort.

It just seems like she is missing out on having a richer, more intimate marriage...and of course...so are you.

If she is anti-MB, I wonder if she would go to an IMAGO Therapy couples weekend: 'Getting the Love You Want', based on Harville Hendrix's book.

weaver and Trix, I like your thoughts.

Trix:

My W is still antagonistic 2ward MB concepts, or so I think at this point in time. 2 some extent, I still need 2 shed some CA of my own, and I imagine so does she. When we do that, if we can, I think the idea of working with some M-building study or therapy/coach method may be possible.

I know I'll miss out on further growth if I 2uit now. So will she. In many ways, if any of us 2uits this recovery stuff, we may go away blissfully unaware of what we might have learned, assuming we part blissfully, that is.

How much better it would be, indeed, if we all wind up blissfully aware with recovered marriages.

-ol' 2long

>saying this with my Jim Carey voice<

wellllllll allllllright-y then <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I guess this means RAT MEAT is about to receive a thank-you from [color:"orange"]old-dweller[/color] ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

according to you

can't pick
n' choose
must forgive
every
wrong-doer

so ... I know you will forgive me for this post

right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Pep

Pep:

You're easy 2 forgive.

RM is another story.

Put loftily, though, I could thank him, though I'd never do that in person - as that would be an acknowledgement of his existence. He would most definitely not be able 2 understand (DJ, my fault. Must I care?). And it's not my problem whether he learns anything from his experiences. I doubt if he'd be receptive if I were 2 point out the oppor2nity he has 2 him.

Don't you agree?

I'm still sorta human, of course. I'd love 2 see him in the ground, but I'll settle for never seeing or hearing of him again for the next 2 billion years.

Really, though, he's not the problem, my W's choice 2 have an A with him is.

Right?

And if that's so, then forgiving her for that choice is the only forgiveness issue relevant 2 our M and my personal spiri2al growth.

Right?

-ol' 2long

wrong

according to the lofty ideal set forth by SpaceCase

... which I think is sorely lacking in explaination .... like HOW to accomplish the forgiveness for someone UNrepentant ... not to mention ... is that even a good idea

according to the ideal you described ...
Rat meat and your wife and Pep are all equally deserving of your forgiveness

but

I just wanted to annoy you by mentioning how UNworkable this blanket forgiveness actually is

Pep <~~~ mission accomplished ~ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(( 2 Long ))

Pep:

"according to you

can't pick
n' choose
must forgive
every
wrong-doer"

Ac2ally, I didn't say this (but I forgive you for thinking I did). It's the wrong that's forgiven, for OUR OWN benefit. So, really we're forgiving ourselves for villifying the wrongdoer rather than siezing an oppor2nity 2 grow. And the perceived wrongdoer in this case is my W, not RM (who is just "Pawn in game of Life").

-ol' 2long

I'd still love 2 see him in the ground, though.


But I forgive myself for having such thoughts.

-ol' 2long

"... which I think is sorely lacking in explaination .... like HOW to accomplish the forgiveness for someone UNrepentant ... not to mention ... is that even a good idea"

In the case of infidelity, "forgiving the unrepentent" WS is exactly what SC did when he accepted that his xW continued 2 make choices that were incompatible with being M'd 2 him, and he DV'd her.

He's happy, and still has contact with his coparent of their 3 kids. She asked him back, recently, and he wasn't interested.

I think it's tragic, but you'd never know SC was living the aftermath of a tragedy by talking 2 him.

-ol' 2long