I LOVED that book...

It is a classic

Pep

Well, shucks!

I'm not ignoring folk units, I'm just horribly busy 2day! It's fun busy stuff, though.

-ol' 2long

Pepperband,

Oh yes, it *is* a classic!

I used to be the self-help book queen. When I moved, I left a whoooooooooooole bunch of books for my kids to keep, sell, trade, whatever. But I kept the super-duper important ones... this being one of those. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LetSTry,

That one looks great! I wonder if they'd have that at the library? I'm going to check... and let you know when I've read it.

WAT:

"Rather, I'm taking advantage of their stupidity by learning valuable life lessons and making a better life for myself as a result. It's kinda a conservation of energy thing - their debasement has allowed an equivalent amount of positive progression for me. (Don't ask me what happens if they repent and thus take back some "energy." That's where my analogy breaks down."

This says much the same thing Spacecase said, in my view. Or, it says the same thing I interpreted from what Spacecase said, in my interpretation!

What happens if they repent? That kind of thing does happen here, as you know. Sometimes the BS is receptive 2 the repentance such that they want 2 remarry the betrayer, but there are many, yourself included, who do not and almost certainly would not (possibly including Spacecase, though I'm not positive of that).

I think the forgiver/betrayed gets 2 a point where the whole notion of learning more lessons by repeating even anything resembling the past experiences by going through them with some of the same people (e.g., the xWS) seems ludicrous. All without needing 2 villify them, of course.

-ol' 2long
P.S. I'd still love 2 see RM implanted in the subjacent stratigraphy.

FH:

""Why does somenone have to seek forgiveness for you to grant it in your heart? " We, as Christians, are to "forgive as God has forgiven us" of our sins against Him. God, and how He forgives us, is the model. God does not "forgive us" to make Himself "feel better about Himself." God forgives us FOR and BECAUSE of Jesus Christ and what Christ did for us in paying the full penalty of sin. God forgives us when we REPENT, and do so through Christ as our Lord and Savior."

This started 2 make sense while I was successful reading past the jargon, but I quickly got lost in the following paragraphs. Sorry.

-ol' 2long

Xerox!

-ol' 2long

FH:

""The wrongdoer does not even know this has happened, and probably should not know." What a marvelous rationalization and justification for CONFLICT AVOIDANCE as the "solution" to difficult problems that SHOULD be faced. WHERE ARE THE OSTRICH'S WHEN WE NEED THEM!?!?!?"

It's not the same thing as CA, because it happens at the spiri2al level, not the interpersonal level. I'm surprised you missed that.

-ol' 2long

weaver:

"Not the same language/symbolism 2long would have used I am sure...but this is his thread about his journey and I don't believe he follows Christianity as his personal religion."

I may sometimes appear 2, however. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Precisely because the spiri2al "substance" of the gospel is universal.

Others' mileage may vary.

-ol' 2long

WAT:

"I grant forgiveness in my brain, not my heart. I simply see forgiveness as a two way street. If someone is in "debt" to me, why should I erase that debt unsolicited unless I want to?"

2 release someone who's unrepentant from their debt 2 you isn't really forgiveness, in my view, because it would be throwing away an oppor2nity 2 help the forgivee learn something from their experience by facing the consequences of their choices.

"In the infidels' case, I'm choosing not to because I have no personal need to do so. This seems pretty straight forward to me. To be honest, I haven't thought about it very much. I don't "dwell" on it. I don't even know how I'd react in the (very unlikely) event that forgiveness was sought."

It'd be really interesting 2 see what would happen if it ever was sought, wouldn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

NBII:

One of my favorite resource items posted by Spacecase at http://www.iloveulove.com/forgiveness/artforgive.htm is the "50 quotes about forgiveness", which has a lot of Smedes quotes in it.

-ol' 2long

NBII:

"It was for me when my ex-H cheated - it took FIVE YEARS to get to a point of true forgiveness - which let's face it - was when I began to TRUST him again."

I'm reallly not there yet, myself. Partly because I can't fully trust my W yet. But though it's been 4.5 years since d-day, withdrawal for her has only been underway for a few months now, really. I've got a long haul ahead of me, but truthfully? - about me: I'm not completely satisfied with my handling of my process just yet. When I am, I may do different, but for now this is my "calling."

Last night, my dwelling had me reacting 2 my W's irritable mood during dinner. She snapped at my son for not moving completely out of the way when she was trying 2 walk around the table (small victorian kitchen, not a lot of room there, and my son is bigger than I am!). She was snippy about most everything. So, when she said she needed 2 go lie down right after dinner, I stayed in the kitchen for about an hour for some peace and quiet (and 2 watch Perry Mason on the lobotomy box).

When I did go upstairs, I was calm. And so I was able 2 listen 2 why she was so irritable. Her back was bothering her (does, from time 2 time). Plus, she seems still really scared about the vertigo incident on the way home Sa2rday. But also, because I stayed downstairs for some quiet time, and was calm when I came up, she ac2ally became a little cheerful.

See? My dwelling had me all concerned that the "problem" making her irritable was due 2 renewed contact with RM. But I could *tell* that wasn't it at all, and that gave me pause with regard 2 my own thinking/dwelling/imagining/projecting my fears on2 all the stuff and events around me.

Better 2 undwell so important stuff like learning life lessons and forgiving (for our own benefit) can go forward uninterrupted by s2pid drama.

-ol' 2long

Gadzooks!

I gotta get back 2 work!

-ol' 2long

Congrats on cutting back on your postings! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Who can I blame?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

FH,

Thanks, but no thanks (on taking it to another thread).

For the record though, I was raised Protestant, and my dad had studied for a few years to be a minister but went to Nam instead...these beliefs were brought to me first by my family of origin, and in the past few years really brought home, and in a language I could understand by ACIM, as well as "Jesus and Forgiveness" and "The Journey Home" by Kenneth Wapnick, among many others.

You and I will never share the same understanding of forgiveness (or the purpose of) FH, although I did for a time after coming to this board try to understand your religious views...I know you will never try to understand mine.

And that's as far as I will go on a discussion with you regarding my beliefs.

I am free to share them though, am I not?...and without having to quantify them? (per Tempest I am)

Me
blame me

Of course you are free to share whatever thoughts you wish to share. That is NOT the issue in this case however. In this case you directed a question or two DIRECTLY AT ME and challenged me on what you felt was not a "Christian" or "Biblical" position in your view.

That's fine, but it goes beyond STATING something you believe, to challenging what I said (I assume I am also allowed to say whatever I want just as you want to retain that right for yourself), and your challenging me on my use of the word "WE" to be inclusive of Christians who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and who adhere to the Scripture as the Word of God. You claim to be a Christian in opposition to what I said and I responded simply, "then let's see what God has to say about it His Word and let God speak for Himself."

So what I "believe" or what you "believe" would seem to be of less importance that what God believes, wouldn't you agree with that? Opinions are plentiful, but we should go to the Source, the Scripture, when there is an apparant "conflict" of opinion, wouldn't you say?

So if 2long will forgive us for a brief sidetracking of his thread, I will comment briefly here, instead of on a separate thread, since you rejected that option.

Weaver, you said, "Me, as a Christian, believe that our sinlessness is guaranteed by God...therefore there is NOTHING to forgive!"

Weaver, you mix truths and misapply them to the situation at hand. We are NOT talking about forgness by God for salvation, we are talking about forgiveness for sins committed against us that the sinner repents of.

[color:"red"]"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."[/color] (Matthew 18:15-16 NIV)

"Your brother" refers to another believer. In this case Jesus AFFIRMS that a believe CAN sin and IF he/she sins against you, you are to confront them in love with the fact that they sinned....in order to gain restoration. But to the point of your claim of "sinlessness," Jesus contradicts your opinion on this point. We are, as Christians, blameless before the Father because of Christ's shed blood, but we are NOT yet glorified and free from a sin nature. Until we do receive our glorified bodies we DO continually fight against our fallen nature...a nature that leads us to sin.

Want a further example?

"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?
Jesus answered, [color:"red"]"I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."[/color] (Matthew 18:21-22)

Weaver, Jesus is affirming that believer CAN sin, and can sin repeatedly, and will need to be forgiven by you if you were the one sinned against.

[color:"red"]"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."[/color] (Luke 17:3b-4 NIV emphasis added)

Two truths are taught here by Jesus, Weaver. One is that "brothers" can, and most likely will, sin against us, sometimes even repeatedly. Two, that when the REPENT, it is our duty to forgive them. NONE of these sins is a "sin unto death," but they are sins nonetheless as God defines sin.


"And judgment is for God alone, who does not judge. " There is too much on this subject to go into on 2long's thread, so let it perhaps suffice to say that the Matthew 18:15-20 passage (referred in part above) and the Great White Throne judgment are but two instances where a) the church on earth is given the authority to "judge" sin in the lives of professing believers and, b) that God WILL judge the entire world.




It would be difficult, I admit, to "understand your religious views" if you refuse to state them. My religious views are there for the asking, so if you wish, feel free to ask. The "basis" for being a Christian is the Scripture and it's authority as the Word of God. Would you be in agreement or disagreement with that?

So I guess the final question would be what do YOU think is the definition of a "Christian" and how does that definition you embrace mesh with Scripture?

God bless.

Jargon? WHAT jargon, 2long? Perhaps I could find some terms to use that are not so confusing that they cause you to become "lost."

Well, the Christian-specific terminology, specifically.

-ol' 2long
In lovelike Christ at all times.

Have you tried to implement Harley's suggestion to spend 15 hours undivided attention with each other? Do you think it is possible?

It is part of his plan to fall in love...stay in love...to grow your romantic love back. I doubt she has to know why you are wanting to spend more time together. Try to actually keep track how well you are doing in meeting the goal of 15 hours. (She may already know of Harley's suggestion if you've discussed it or she's read any of his material or books.) Of course, she may be annoyed and think you are being needy, clingy, or a pest.

Ideally, you would find ways to spend this time that would meet both of your emotional needs...conversation, recreational etc....you know... Ideally, you would POJA how this time would be spent. I don't think that TV and Movies count toward the time.

It may help make some progress towards a recovery...instead of the stasis (read: stagnation).