Of course you are free to share whatever thoughts you wish to share. That is NOT the issue in this case however. In this case you directed a question or two DIRECTLY AT ME and challenged me on what you felt was not a "Christian" or "Biblical" position in your view.

That's fine, but it goes beyond STATING something you believe, to challenging what I said (I assume I am also allowed to say whatever I want just as you want to retain that right for yourself), and your challenging me on my use of the word "WE" to be inclusive of Christians who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and who adhere to the Scripture as the Word of God. You claim to be a Christian in opposition to what I said and I responded simply, "then let's see what God has to say about it His Word and let God speak for Himself."

So what I "believe" or what you "believe" would seem to be of less importance that what God believes, wouldn't you agree with that? Opinions are plentiful, but we should go to the Source, the Scripture, when there is an apparant "conflict" of opinion, wouldn't you say?

So if 2long will forgive us for a brief sidetracking of his thread, I will comment briefly here, instead of on a separate thread, since you rejected that option.

Weaver, you said, "Me, as a Christian, believe that our sinlessness is guaranteed by God...therefore there is NOTHING to forgive!"

Weaver, you mix truths and misapply them to the situation at hand. We are NOT talking about forgness by God for salvation, we are talking about forgiveness for sins committed against us that the sinner repents of.

[color:"red"]"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."[/color] (Matthew 18:15-16 NIV)

"Your brother" refers to another believer. In this case Jesus AFFIRMS that a believe CAN sin and IF he/she sins against you, you are to confront them in love with the fact that they sinned....in order to gain restoration. But to the point of your claim of "sinlessness," Jesus contradicts your opinion on this point. We are, as Christians, blameless before the Father because of Christ's shed blood, but we are NOT yet glorified and free from a sin nature. Until we do receive our glorified bodies we DO continually fight against our fallen nature...a nature that leads us to sin.

Want a further example?

"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?
Jesus answered, [color:"red"]"I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."[/color] (Matthew 18:21-22)

Weaver, Jesus is affirming that believer CAN sin, and can sin repeatedly, and will need to be forgiven by you if you were the one sinned against.

[color:"red"]"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."[/color] (Luke 17:3b-4 NIV emphasis added)

Two truths are taught here by Jesus, Weaver. One is that "brothers" can, and most likely will, sin against us, sometimes even repeatedly. Two, that when the REPENT, it is our duty to forgive them. NONE of these sins is a "sin unto death," but they are sins nonetheless as God defines sin.


"And judgment is for God alone, who does not judge. " There is too much on this subject to go into on 2long's thread, so let it perhaps suffice to say that the Matthew 18:15-20 passage (referred in part above) and the Great White Throne judgment are but two instances where a) the church on earth is given the authority to "judge" sin in the lives of professing believers and, b) that God WILL judge the entire world.




It would be difficult, I admit, to "understand your religious views" if you refuse to state them. My religious views are there for the asking, so if you wish, feel free to ask. The "basis" for being a Christian is the Scripture and it's authority as the Word of God. Would you be in agreement or disagreement with that?

So I guess the final question would be what do YOU think is the definition of a "Christian" and how does that definition you embrace mesh with Scripture?

God bless.

I send my "forgiveness" up to the Holy Spirit (Jesus for me) to hold until the other is ready to receive it...and when he is, it will be there for him...for his healing as well.

ForeverHers,

When you write things like your thread: If you are struggling or having a "bad day" that's shown in your sig line... YOU SHINE like the brightest star! When you reach out to others who share your beliefs, you shine. When someone specifically asks a Biblical question, you not only shine, you excel. You know your Bible... you know what you believe... and you share it.

When you try to make others feel "less than" and/or "stupid" and/or "wrong" and/or "evil" for not believing *exactly* as you do... your light goes out.

I wish... you could see that. You have so much to offer...

And how many different paths to God? About a thousand, I hear.

I didn't attack you, I merely stated that I, as a Christian do not take the same stance as you in regards to forgiveness, as that was what I thought we (posters on this thread) were talking about...and then you said "we, as Christians believe"

"Should a Christian NOT question a position from anyone when it appears to contradict the fundamental basis of what a “Christian” is as stated in the Scripture?"

Which scrip2re? Which of the 30 or so known gospels (including the recently identified gospel of Judas), from which the early Christian Church perhaps arbitrarily (but probably politically) downselected 2 4 2 keep in the New Testament?

No offense intended.

-ol' 2long

but I DO expect a Christian to be able to support their belief WITH Scripture and not mere opinion. Don't you?

That's pretty much good enough for me. Whether they are or not, or whether it matters or not, isn't up 2 me 2 decide. It's a matter between them and their deity, isn't it? And if they profess that their deity is the same one you call "God", ...well, it beats the white off my @$$ why it's not good enough for you, FH.

We teach what we are FH, no scripture required.

You should stop saying that anyone who takes a different stance than you is attacking you or Christianity as it is highly offensive and designed to bully the other person into silence I would think, or to intimidate them.

And when you say something I say is not biblical, well that means almost nothing to me as I did not list the Bible as my source for my beliefs. Although I do know it quite well, and even like parts of it. I grew up on it...my first memories as a very tiny child are of my relationship with God. I was a very happy little girl as long as I could pray and feel close to God, and that has not changed.

Might one not say the same thing, for example, about teaching creation and a universal worldwide Flood in schools simply because they also are "other gospels" of how things got here and how things like fossils can be accounted for. Therefore they are "all" merely SCIENCE?