Viking, if you read Surviving An Affair, you'll recall Dr. Harley writing wayward spouses invariably begin to bargain when they're backed into a corner, even when they have nothing to bargain with. Your wife is in a place where she has absolutely no bargaining position but she's going to try it anyway.

No. No conditions. She doesn't get to play single while being married and reaping more than her fair share of the benefits. Pull the trigger on the legal action to get back in the home and let her know more things will have to be trimmed from the budget because she's requiring you to go that route. Suggest to her she needs to work many more hours in her "dream job" instead of fewer. You've got a lot of trumps to play in this game, Viking. Call her bluff. She's got nothing but throwaway cards and you have all the face cards. Play them.

She's rewritten history and is beginning to spew her version of your marriage at the drop of a hat. That's fine, you can't change her mind overnight, but she's not allowed to disrespect you any more than you disrespect her, particularly in front of the children. When she starts that crap, walk away and remind her when you can she is not entitled to use the children as pawns. Have you read Pepperband's "Carrot and Stick of Plan A?" Perhaps this is a good time to review it.

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

Pardner, I'd make sure your children know what is going on now if you haven't exposed to them before. They are terribly vulnerable right now and can be hurt very badly. Read what Jennifer Harley Chalmers wrote about the lessons children learn when they don't know what is happening to their world.

Infidelity: The Lessons Children Learn

Use your trump cards for every ploy she tries, Viking. You've got a winning hand if you play it out. Like the guy says in the commercial..."Just do it."

okay thanks....

What I want to do before I got back in is set some boundaries for her and I.

Like the following

No lies
Honesty
No dating


I don't want to make unrealistic request but if you can think of anything that would help me I would appreciate it

I went and saw her after her work tonight... we went an talked for two hours. Mostly about our past, how aweful I made her feel and how I destroyed her life.. I owned up to my share of the problems and how my adultery years ago caused her so much pain.

So her offer was that we would live together until our youngest daughter graduates.. that is 12 years. I can't imagine how anyone could live with another person that they say they hate for that long.

I did ask that we set boundries of honesty, no lies, and no dating. She waffeled on the dating thing and finally I dropped it as a requirement.

She asked that if the kids were out of the house we would have no contact with each other.

I am taking my victories where I can...


So I finally exposed to a friend of her's that she has fancied for before our marriage and I let him know what was going on... here is what he said, think its interesting......

Hi <VK>. I'm sorry to hear of the unfortunate events surrounding your marriage. I hope things work out for the best. Jennifer did contact me and seems to be in an emotionally fragile state.

At first my conversations with <WIFE> were the norm...excited to talk to an old friend and share a few stories. <WIFE> and I (when in touch) have great (amusing) conversations and have often served as mutual confidants. However, over the last couple of weeks she seems to have been quite assertvie and persistent in calling and/or emailing. I have been on vacation for the last two weeks and upon returing home this morning I checked my voice mail and had a few from <WIFE>. I didn't realize the potential danger of our "friendly" conversations until this morning. My voiced concern has obviously been misconstrued.

<WIFE> is hurting, and it seems to me that she may be looking for a male figure, whom she admires and respects, to shield her from the pain she is trying to bury. As long as she doesn't have to confront the issue...then it doesn't exist. I am certain you understand the psychological impact of the emotional rollercoaster she's riding.

<VK>, the last thing I want to do is to interfere with the sanctity of your marriage and family. I wish the best for you, <WIFE> and the girls. I am certain with effort and a true desire, you can get through this. You know, <WIFE> and I spoke years ago about some issues you guys were having and I advised her that you both needed to communicate and internalize your collective thoughts and feelings. There is no place for ego within the home. The home is a place of love and trust. My wish is that you and <WIFE> are able to pick up the pieces and find some common ground to begin rebuilding your home.

I don't know that you and I need to have an intimate conversation about the issues currently surrounding your marriage, but if you'll indulge me, I will extend some advice:

-See a counselor (if you aren't already)
-Identify your weaknesses as well as Jen's
-Identify your strengths as well as Jen's
-ID and nix the ego and allow Jen to do the same so that you can communicate...truly listen and internalize all that is spoken and gestured. You have everything to lose!
-SHOW your love by establishing a proactive neverending chain of love..think about it.
(a touch, a look, a call, a note, a glass of OJ in the morning, etc...little things go a long way)

<VK>, you're in for a long hard ride, BUT remember the ultimate goal--a healthy lasting marriage, one from which your daughters can learn and hopefully find for themselves one day.

I wish you the best!

Respectfully,

<friend>
=========================================

He has been divorced twice so he knows the impact of Marriage failures.

I don't know if I should ask him to contact my wife and have him express the same or just leave it alone.

You gave in on letting her date other men?

Longhorns comments should have been prefaced by 3 letters - WTF.

What are you thinking here? If this is a victory, what does defeat look like to you? Your wife can date other men???? Huh.

Sorry no this is a guy that has been a friend of her's since before our marriage, for the past month she has bene trying to contact him... he thought it was just to reignite their friendship but as you can see he sees it as more. He would never come in between our marriage.

So I exposed to him that depth of our marriage problem and he gave me this advice...

I just wonder if I have him contact my W and tell her to work on our marriage... she would listen to him.

Um. No. the above is what Longhorn and I were commenting on.

No I didn't let in I just stopped talking about it. I think its a play on making it difficult for me to come back home. I told her that I thought she was being very gracious in letting come home knowing that she is talking about being with me for so long.....

So I get a chance to do a great plan A now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's all down the tubes if she gets it into her mind you've approved her dating though, Viking. Be careful. Carrot and stick, remember?

I respectfully disagree with LH and BK here. The first order of business is to get home, and then negotiate later with WW. It would have been different if you were the one at the house and WW was the one coming home. Then you would have more leverage to negotiate with.

For now, get home and just never agree with WW that it’s ok for her to date other men. You just don’t push the issue until you are settled in the home. And when you are definitely legally settled in the home, if WW refuses NC with other men, you drop the legal nukes that you threatened her earlier with. I hope you did not intend to put the nukes away just because you are now about to be back in your home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

So play it cool for now and get in your house and over time you do what you have to do. But first thing first.

Why does one EVER negotiate with a wayward spouse?

So here is a question... the guy that is her friend that didn't realize that she was all hot for him and that sent me the letter about sticking with my marriage and doing the right thing... do I have him call my wife and tell her to try and work on our marriage... without him telling her we talked?

She respects him and it would be a huge positive to have him tell her to work on our marriage

I don't know Viking. You just broke up a budding EA and probable PA between that man and your wife. At least I hope you did. I don't know the guy but I saw nothing in his letter that said he would never see or talk to your wife again, and that's what needs to happen.

Your wife's "respect" for him is evidently rooted in an inappropriate, sexually/romantically based desire for him, as witnessed by your statement, "she fancied him (since) before" you and your wife were married. You also judged her to be "hot for him" in reference to the emails and phone calls. I'm beginning to wonder about your wife, Viking. Are there any other men in the same category as this "friend?" Are there any other indications she has an attitude she can have male friends she also wants to explore deeper relationships with? How long has this attitude been a part of your marriage?

My instinct is to suggest instead that you ask him to never have any contact of any kind with your wife ever again, and then "confront" your wife with the knowledge you now know why the relationship with her last OM seemed to have been dying.

Other than this "respect" she has for him, are there any other reasons you feel your wife would pay attention to him? I see danger here, and evidence your wife is considering another self-indulgent time out from her marriage.

(BTW, I've seen references to a name in your last few posts. To preserve your anonymity, you might consider editing your posts to remove that name.)

no this is a different guy...

Guy 1 - Looser was a player, local to us wife has NC
he is the one she talked to and was have the EA with

Guy 2 - Good Guy been W friend for years, wife got attached
and started reaching out to him for more affection
he will be calling her to tell her to focus on
marriage and that there will never be them together.

She respects guy 2 and I think will be helpful to my cause.
Guy 2 is a solid christian and believes in marriage - not matter what I have done - if I truly love her and have changed my wife should at least try and communicate with me and find out if there is something.

Yes, I know. This is at least the second man she's tried out an inappropriate relationship with. "Solid Christians" abound here on MB, Viking. There's an active thread out here right now where a pastor in a betrayed spouse's church is the wayward spouse's partner in adultery.

You've made up your mind on this. I hope it works out all right.

LH,

If one lives in the same house with a WS, of course one will have to negotiate with the WS. It could be something important, or it could not. The point is to remember that a WS is not rational and approach any negotiation, if any, accordingly. Sure there things that are non-negotiable, but others necessarily will be. Unless the BS and WS never talks or they always agree, necessarily there will be some negotiations if they live in the same house, like in all households.

In any event, my point is that the most important thing for VC to do now is to move home. The rest can follow from there.

VC,

I think it is a bad idea to ask guy #2 to contact your WW. Just tell him to stop talking to her so as not to encourage your WW in that route. But you don’t need him to convince your WW of this. Since obviously your WW already likes him, the risk of any contact with him is greater than any gain you can reap by having them talking to each other. I just think this is a very bad idea. Your WW will not change her ways overnight, unless of course she is faced with catastrophic consequences. And needless to say, this is not it.

UVA, the subject under discussion is whether a married woman gets to date men outside the marriage or not. I think you will agree with me it's entirely appropriate for a married couple to negotiate who takes out the garbage and who loads the dishwasher...even who gets up for the 2:00 AM feeding. However, don't you also agree dating--adultery--is a boundary and not available for arbitration in marriages built on MB principles? I fully understand, btw, that one does not negotiate with a WS because they are not rational, but you can lay out boundaries.

Viking, I hope you're learning something from this exchange. There are differing opinions on many things on MB and discussing them within your thread gives me/us opportunities to talk about things that are not precisely within the parameters of answering questions you pose. I hope that's okay with you.

LH I agree no dating, but their is no opportunity nor do I think she will take one anytime soon. I have stated to her that is not appropriate to date. That I will not date and that not matter what I have done in the past (infidelity) that doesn't mean its condoned or acceptabe by either party.

Like UVA said I didn't want to kill the getting back into the house deal by creating such conflict right now, wait until I get into the house - if she decided to "date" then I will be in a better position to effect that change.

Since she is still so angery at me, what steps should I take. I don't think cards are flowers are appropriate, but I was thinking of right her a letter about some of my realizations about us that at least has been good for me.

So I was talking to one of my wifes best friends - the same lady that does my oldest daughter's riding lesson's. I did get into a discussion about our sitch maybe not the best things but I am open and honest about it and don't try to pull any punch's.... One thing that I have complained about my wife in the past was that she doesn't do house work and I see that has a neglect of duties on her part... and its has gotten under my skin for years..... well my W BF said you know just because she's not a good maid doesn't make her a bad mom or a bad wife, its means she doesn't like to clean and she likes to put the kids higher in her priority list.... that started me thinking that she is right, just because I thought the house should be cleaned first that its not the most important things. Especially when my W has 3 daughters to take care. Its also my area - doing services to show love, where its not my wife. She is more about affection and making you feel good or have a good time is how she shows love and she does that a lot with the girls...

So should I send her that note saying I am sorry for making those bad assumptions all these years that she was lazy or didn't care about cleaning the house but rather that she wanted to be a more loving and caring mother than a made...

I start getting mad at myself for not seeing this sooner..

So is that a letter I would send now?

So, who does like housework? I can’t tell you how much I would love a maid coming to my home so I wouldn’t have to do it. It's something that needs to be done because hygiene and a clean home are important. That your wife doesn’t want to contribute to the upkeep of the home DOES impact on how good a mother and wife she is. Their health depends on a home free from mold, mildew, dirt, disorder, etc. She wants to do the fun things with her girls, but not the hard things. Personally, I don’t think she deserves a note apologizing for not having understood that before.

I didn't say she didn't ever do housework it was never a priority and I see that it was my priority but not hers - I am just trying to understand my wife better....

So your going to flame me again on this but....
She called me up and asked me point blank if I had talked to guy #2 the good christian that doesn't want to come between our marriage..... well I thought about lie or denying it but i promised her that I would be open and honest and not lie.

So I told her that we had exchanged emails, she asked that I read her the email.... now at this point I should have said you need to call guy 2 and talk to him - or that is what I think.

So I go ahead an read the 4 emails in our exchange - I did so because it was one of the better exchanges I have had, I also did so because the guy 2 tells it like it is that my w is a friend and nothing more.

She called me back a few minutes later and said I shouldn't have interferred with her friend and that she completely hates me now and doesn't want to talk to me and the compromise is not off.

Can someone just shoot me