First time poster..... here is my story.

I have been married 11 years, have 3 daughters 6,8,10. My wife and i met and married in 3 weeks (she was 20 I was 25) both in the military. I have had issue with viewing porn and flirting with people from the beginning. Thought it was harmless. We have had communication problems for the past 11 years, she restarted a relationship with a former boyfriend 6 years ago, that ended. I slept with a prostitute 5 years ago and again 2.5 years ago. Justifying it by saying I didn't want a EA just wanted some affection. So she has been unahppy for a long while but I have tried to make her happy, she has a problem with forgiving and she continually brings up the past. Now 6 months ago she asked for separation, found out she met a guy and was talking to him, so she was really negative and nasty to me, until I foun out why and I started working really hard to win her back, I started to change my attitude towars our marriage and really trying to love her.

Now, March 30 we moved her parents down to our home, she had been distant and starting to get angry with me again, so I asked are you talking to someone again, and she said yes, so I asked are you going to "see" him she said yes. I said I couldn't stand for that and wouldn't stay if she did. So when we got her folks moved in I moved out. She saw the guy they next day. She spent almost 3000 minutes on the cell phone in march talking to him. She has now know him for 6 weeks, he says he loves her. I know his cousin and she says he is a player and wont go the distance he is after sex and a goodtime. My W is addicted to his attention and funness.
So I have been out of the house for almost month giving her time and space which she asked for, she has been seeing him while he has been in town but no sex, he was out of town for 2 weeks but back now and I worried he is going to put the pressure on to have sex, even though she says she wont until she decides, I don't know if she has actually decide but wont tell me.

We have a huge house and land and I have gotten her everything she has ever desired, I have been trying Plan A for a week now before that I was doing NC.

We have started MC but I am not sure where that will go, she hasn't given up the OM yet. How do I ask her to do that without making her mad?

I am thinking I give here a few more weeks and then move back into the hosue - we have an apartment that I can say in so I can take care of the kids and be with them. Also so I can impliment more plan A. This will most certainly freak her out.

We can't afford separation with me staying with a friend even that rent will hurt us right now.

Help!!!!

Never and I mean never move out of the house. Legally that can be construed as abandonment. Move back into your home today. She is seeing the OM. If she wants to move out then she may do so. By moving out of the house all you do is give her the freedom to see and be with the OM without guilt.
By the way, I would not so sure they have not had sex. If she is thinking about leaving her marriage and family and going off with him then it is almost a certainty that she has been intimate. It is doubtful a person would destroy a marriage and family without making sure she was sexually compatible with the person.

The bottom line is get back in the house. You have given her all of the cards and all of her freedom to act as a single person. What is wrong with this picture? I would also advise you to contact an attorney to understand the various financial possibilities that may ensue. You need as much information as possible. I wish you luck.

Welcome to MarriageBuilders. I think this is going to be an excellent place for you to try and meet your goal to save your marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I remember your threads from LS. And I still don't think you're going to be able to take a hard-nosed approach with your wife.

You're coming from the position of FWH (former wayward husband) and approaching a BS who has given up and moved on.

Your Plan A is going to have to be a SERIOUSLY attractive one. What exactly are you doing in your Plan A, btw? Are you seeing the kids everyday?

I gave you some advice on those other threads, and one thing I mentioned to you was that you read Surviving an Affair. Did you do that yet? I really do think it will help you.

It seems to me that you've got a demonstrated tendancy toward taking a reactive stance. Leaving the home, going NC, calling the cops because the OM's car was parked at your house....these are ALL reactive to NOT getting what you want. I don't think that's going to wash at this point.

You've got to be calm and measured in your response. It's not as if you haven't given your wife a REASON to divorce you. As I told you before....one incident with a prostitute would have sealed your fate if I were in her shoes. She's got a case here for not wanting you back.

Your carrot needs to be bigger than your stick, IMHO.

Try these links to help with your sitch.

A special thanks to Suzet*

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2685515

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2686307

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2686307

Ladeyjane could you give me that advice again.

I just got done talking to my wife for 45 minutes, it started as me asking to move back in to use chatting about life and the kids and other things, tried to keep it very positive.

She says that he OM is hitting on her but she is not taking a bite, he is more and more looking like a friend. I see that she might have been attracted to him at first but I think she wants to have time and space to think about our marriage.

She said something that hurt today like, she is happy now that I am gone she can think clearly. She says she hasn't decide what she wants but wont do anything to jepordize her morales until she is sure.

I haven't put a strong A plan together since I just found out about it. I would love to have some more examples of it.

Another thing is how long is long? I don't want her to string me along how do I tell?

We have bills and we cant afford the separation too long, after making the first mistake of asking/demanding to come home I said that one of the things she needed to think about if she decides to try with our marriage is to let me move into our apartment above the gargage so I can live their - I told her I would respect any boundaries that she would put up.

Viking,

I'm no expert, but I'll share my experience. I'm not going to put my whole story in your thread, but I'm a FWH dealing with a WW. Hurtful things get said, i.e.


If you take all of this personally, it'll wear you down. At least, it has me. Just don't respond in kind. That's a staple in my Plan A. Now, I simply refuse to get goaded. If she pulls out the guns, don't give her a target.


From what I've read here, long is however long you can stand to deal with it before your love for your W turns into hate.

Best of luck.

There's nothing that can guarantee your marriage will be saved. But I think your best chance will be in using the marriagebuilding principles outlined in the Basic Concepts section.

You'll want to read every bit of that repeatedly until you're familiar with it. And more importantly....start using it in your interactions with your wife.

You'll need to read the information in the HT Survive Infidelity Section, paying special attention to Plan A / Plan B.

In order to implement your Plan A to it's fullest advantage, try taking the Emotional Needs Questionairre. You can print off a copy for your wife, and if she won't take it with you...try filling one out the way you believe she would.

You'll want to read Surviving An Affair of course, but also try a copy of His Needs / Her Needs. This will also help you to identify your wife's ENs. If you can't afford to purchase the books...get them from the library.

I think you've got a long row to hoe in regaining your wife's trust. Did you ever seek counseling on your previous infidelity? How will your wife know for sure that you'll never do it again? Your track record is against you in this. You'll need to offer her some kind of proof that you've conquered the process of rationalizations and justifications that allowed you to seek outside the marriage before.

I'm reprinting my earlier advice to you from the other thread, so as not to have to type it all out again. This was in reference to your question about going NC....


Again, I would encourage you to seek out IC if at all possible. You might call your health insurance plan to see if there are benefits available. And you can get a phone conference with the Harley's here at MB. I think the fee is under $200.00, but I'm not sure.

As you can see, you've got ALOT to do! You're not at all helpless in your situation. You have the option to study all this information and to implement it in the acquisition of your goals. You know, you can't make other people's choices for them....but you sure as heck can make your own!

So...choose to learn, and choose to control your tendancy toward reactiveness lest it defeat you. There's no guarantee that you'll be successful, but you can certainly set the parameters which will allow for it.

Okay its the weekend now I screwed up again and pushed her farther away.... I taped a phone conversation with her and the other man and confronted her about it and now she is freaked out about my actions and is even more furious with me than before......

but I feel better, after some reflection.

I now realize I was doing it all for the wrong reasons's, I was doing it all the wrong ways.... I am a former marine 250lbs 6ft 2 and I cry like a baby, and I have done that in the past in front of my wife.

But through reading on MB and from support of friends I am convienced now that I need to tighten ship and fly right with a solid plan A

So as I posted before I am currently out of the house - thought I was doing the right thing when she asked for time and space... see it as part of her A.

So I am going to think very carefully about how I speak to her. I am going to be polite and not get into LB'n

I also think that the A is more about her than about the A.
She finds the guys company reassuring but she doesn't spend a lot of time anymore with him or on the phone.... since her schedule is swamped with the kids and new job. So I need to stop talking about the A and what the OM is doing.

He is a carpenter and we need one at our house right now, if he is truely just a friend to her right now would it be wrong to engage him to help me repair stuff around the house, on the other had he is very slick and is trying his best to bed my W, I don't think he has long term intentions with her, even though in 3 weeks of knowing each other he has asked to marry her.

So when I get a chance I want to do nice things for her

a)like change her cars oil
b)fill it up
c)leave little treats in her car after her work - its near where I am staying now
d) do things around the house to help her - laundry
e) try taking more time with the kids.

but how do I do this without providing her time with the OM. If I say I will take the kids for the weekend that gives her time with him?

My earlier thought for you was that you should incorporate a daily routine with your kids. That might be simple as tucking them in at night, or having dinner, or even just a daily playtime after work.

If you're at the home daily, helping with homework or pitching a baseball....there's opportunities available every day to meet some of your wife's ENs. You insinuate yourself into daily family life, and before you know it...she's relying on you to be there.

But you know, you're not going to fool her with some kind of ACT. She needs to see real and lasting changes in you. You're going to have to prove yourself to her. And that's going to take TIME.

Just a one little coin everyday going into the love bank will hopefully chip away at the emotional distance. But you need to also be seeking out an understanding of her boundaries. What would it take for her to trust you again?

Viking, this was not a mistake. You are SUPPOSED to firmly confront her with evidence. It is your job to do everything in your power to cuase conflict in the affair. That means you should be snooping, confronting and most of all EXPOSING. Plan A does not stand for APPEASEMENT.


Hopefully you understand what a HUGE MISTAKE this is and will go HOME NOW. You cannot work on your marriage if you ARE NOT THERE. Moving out just facilitated her affair. That is against your bst interest.


You should NOT, under any circumstances, PROMOTE OR FACILITATE her affair. If you want to save your marriage, you will not do it this way. The OW SHOULD NEVER EVER BE IN YOUR HOME OR AROUND YOUR CHILDREN. This is some SCUMBAG your W met online and your children should not be dragged into her sleazy affair or exposed to scummy characters. This is how little children end up molested.

As their father, you SHOULD BE HOME with them. You should not abandon them in their time of need. You are the only sane parent they have right now and you have abandoned them. They need you very much.

You cannot work on your marriage if you ARE NOT HOME. So this has to be the first step.

GO HOME NOW!

NO! You should not be acting like a divorced person or she will view you as one. You should be acting like a MARRIED MAN. GO HOME and act like a married man. If you don't act like one, why in the world should she VIEW you as one?? All you have done is moved out to facilitate her affair. Does that look like someone who is fighting for his marriage? HE11 no!

You just rolled over and allowed some other man - some scumbag she met on the internet - to move in and take your place. Time to MAN UP and start fighting for your marriage, my friend!

Viking, a PROPER Plan A includes a BALANCE of both the carrot and the stick. You cannot neglect one part and expect to have any success, especially a failure to protect your children frm the affair:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

I made the mistake of trying to capture in her affair and she found out and now I am really low, she says their is no chance and their is no us and that she is going to be very short with me.... Now I have read how this is going to be the action of the day until I can start depositing love units, but its really hard.

I started paperwork to put our lovely house on the market.

I asked her to open her own checking account.

I have told her that I will provide her some money for the kids and stuff, but since she is living in the house and has all our luxuries around her that she can pay for the rest of her stuff.

She got her first paycheck from her new job and its was a LOT less that she expected..... I keep telling her I would love to be able to support her in her dream job, she comes back with she guess she has to quite because she can't afford it.

I have been offered by my boss to leave town for a few weeks, to work in Boston vs North Carolina. Would that be a good idea, give her time to think and see if the grass is greener on the other side....

The OM calls her late at night - he is a night owl and a goes out a lot, so she is use to sleeping 9-10 hours a night but she hasn't been getting that lately and starting to see the effect, I am not sure our kids have made it ontime to school this week.

What can I do?

I have been offered by my boss to leave town for a few weeks, to work in Boston vs North Carolina. Would that be a good idea, give her time to think and see if the grass is greener on the other side....

why are you considering abandoning your children..leaving them with a fogged up mom who is selfishly seeking only to appease herself...


already her night life is interfering with the children's stability...

how would leaving town and leaving your children to her be a good thing...

how about YOU move home...
and if she chooses she can leave
THAT is good marriagebuilders believe it not...

ARK

You can go home and ACT LIKE A MARRIED MAN! Did you want to read any of the posts I wrote to you? We are telling you what to do and you aren't listening.

My problem is that in North Carolina because I left... I abandonded the family, and she can force me to leave by law. So I have to work from the outside in.

I am trying to take away those things that make her life so easy, the bankcard and make her pay for her own gas.

I have realized that I have some real insecurities which its making it difficult for me to let go and let her have sometime.

A friend of ours is a police officer and has advised me of my rights to return so I just can't do that. My wife is paranoid now that I am stalking around the house at night, which I did a couple of times and is really warned down from my LB's.

So I on a new plan A for carroting, I am trying to be with the kids as much as possible - with out enabling her to see the OM.

Since she is still on my cell phone plan I see her hourly useage, I see the text pages he sends her, and I also can track her location on her phone..... so I can find out where she is at night and day.

I almost feel that I have to get her out of the house and get her on her own to realize what she was giving up.

So should I take thing away from her, while at the same time doing things for her?

ok, the answer is not to CONTINUE to abandon your family but to GO HOME. Of course you can go to your own home, YOU LIVE THERE! You have as much right to live there as she does.

You don't need to "give her time" you need to GO HOME! And take care of your CHILDREN.

viking, all you have to do is go to your house and move back in. The police are not going to remove a man from his own home unless he is breaking the law. You have every right to be in your own home.

I don't think he can just move back in, ML. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I found the following information on Divorcenet.com


I have no idea if that's still current law, but I think you'd would be wise, Viking, to check with an attorney before you try to move back into the home.

Regarding your earlier question as to if you should go to Boston or not.... I think the question you have to ask yourself is "How is my Plan A best served?"

It's hard to do a good Plan A when you're hundreds of miles away. But on the other hand if going would significantly contribute to the general financial security of your family, it might be the thing to do.

What you don't want to do is to 'think with your feet'. I'm wondering if that's a problem for you at this point. I remember posting to you on the other site the day before you moved out of the home, and asking you if you'd separated yet. At that time, I advised you to 'work from the inside'.

I'll be honest, it's hard to prove yourself as a consistant partner when your tendancy is to act first and think it all out later. If that's at all descriptive of you....you might want to sort that out here pretty quickly.

I know your money situation is tight, but is there any way you can get a consult from Steve Harley? I really do think you could benefit from some specific guidance. Maybe you could even call in to the radio show. There's a link on the header that will give you more information on that.

While it's true that you can't save the marriage without busting up the affair, I'm really worried that if you push your WW too hard...she's going to divorce you out-of-hand due to that business with the prostitute. And while we can all agree there's NO EXCUSE for infidelity on anyone's part, the sad fact is that she's probably feeling a bit 'entitled' right now. That makes your battle an uphill one against some serious stinkin' thinkin'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think you need to stretch for TIME in order for her to observe attractive and consistant changes in you. You need TIME for that Plan A to work.

As I told you before, it doesn't really improve your chances of reconciliation to go to Plan B if she's not going to miss you. Plan A helps her notice that you're a great guy still, and maybe she doesn't really want to lose you after all.

The sad fact is...that there's nothing you can really do to enforce your wife's behavior. Although, you can certainly set up parameters to make it easier for her to choose YOU by utilizing your Plan A. And...as the children's father, you can certainly insist on appropriate behavior being demonstrated in front of the kids.

But this is ALL so much easier to accomplish if you can get her to negotiate reasonably rather than having to force her through the court system. The latter is an alternative that is always available to you, but if you can accomplish some of your goals without having to resort to it...so much the better.

In answer to your question about making things tough for her financially... Again, it's better to negotiate when you can. Otherwise, you might inadvertantly encourage her to haul YOU into court. So, think about these decisions in terms of what's most fair to both of you, and what's going to be in keeping with your Plan A.

Personally, if it were me...I'd pay her gas card, because it supports the kids. And I'd cut off her cell phone, because it supports her affair. And I'd be real sweet about it too when I explained to her why I cut the phone off. You're just a guy doing what he needs to do to put his family back together, afterall. That's a whole different thing than acting out of spite.

I'm curious. Are her parents still living in the home with her? And if so, what do they think about all this? Do they know what's going on? Is there any way that they can help or support you in your efforts?

Her parents finally moved out last weekend and it has put a strain on her because her mom was doing everything around the house and now she has too.

There are issues with her family that pre-date the marriage and I think her mom was really strict when my W was younger and now she is enabling her to be happy at any cost.

here dad thinks the guy is scum and is bottom feeding.

My head is getting a lot better at controlling my heart and mouth.

I am flying back tonight from a 1 day trip to NY and a bought the girls a I Love NY shirt and I bought my wife something too. She will dismiss it out of hand but that is fine.

The other thing that keeps bothering me is that she for the whole 11 years has always exclaimed mine as the possesive for everything we own, its been my house, my kids, my vacations, my life from her. Even through my infidelity I was always about the family. I supported them and her very well, I cared for them very well. I didn't do a good job about balancing work and life that well.

Now what really kills me is that I had been doing a Plan A for a while with her, before i knew what it was. I did more demostic support, I did more kid time, I did more family time I even tried to do more W time, but all that has been revised in her history of what I have been doing.

I guess I have to wait and see, I told her I am going to wait until June 1 to talk about us and give her sometime without me getting in her face.

I am wondering if because i was doing a Plan A before the separation and will do it for another month, if that plan A isn't making a dent in her.

So the finances are going to be hard, she doesn't make much and I now have to pay rent.

I already sent her and email saying that we wont be able to send the girls to any camps this summer.

Is it right to make a statement like this, "because of our situation and your decsision to leave me, we can't afford the things we wanted for our girls this year, I hope they understand."

Is that a carrot and stick approach?

thanks

viking, how about this? Instead of surrendering before you even try to save your marriage, why not go to your home and see if you can get back in your house? She may not even call the police at all. I know its easier to just surrender and lie down, but it might be helpful for your marriage to at least TRY to go home.

Then if that doesn't work, get an attorney to get back in. You need to get an attorney NOW ANYWAY to get yourself financially protected from her, since you have not done anything AT ALL. Much less blocked the OM from coming into your own home. All of this must be done before you start focusing on these bizarre appeasement strategies.

I see many mistakes being made here that are going to cost you your marriage if you don't get to work. Sitting back and playing Mr Nice Guy while she destroys your family is only going to result in her SUCCESS.

And it will result in a NEW MAN moving in and taking your place and fathering your children. That is already happening and will continue to happen until you get to work. Your children desperately need you there to protect them being a FATHER instead of killing yourself trying to APPEASE a wayward mother.

viking, the carrot and stick approach includes using the STICK, which is sorely missing here. Without the STICK, you are not doing Plan A, you are simply AIDING AND ABETTING in the destruction of your family. PLAN A DOES NOT STAND FOR APPEASEMENT.

I have to disagree with LadyJane about not trying to bust up this affair. Your past does not disqualify you from working this program properly. Your past does not entitle her to have an affair and destroy your marriage and your children' lives. Your past has nothing to do with how you should treat her affair TODAY!

Just because you visited a prostitute in the past has no bearing on your current situation, anymore than does her past affair. It doesn't justify what she is doing and should have nothing to do with your actions today. It is not a lifelong scarlet letter that disqualifies you from saving your marriage and protecting your children.

viking, how about getting to work?

viking, I get the sense that you are seeking an easier, softer way that avoids any and all conflict. I want to assure you that the easier softer way will avail you NOTHING. Your past infidelity has nothing to do with how you treat your W's affair. That means that all of the MB principles should be brought to bear in full force to save your marriage.

That means that exposure needs be done along with documenting your wifes' affair. That means that you SNOOP, gather information and discuss it with her just like in any affair. It also means that you take a firm stand and do not allow her to drag your children into her sleazy affair. The OM should NEVER be in your home or anywhere NEAR your children. But this is even more reason why you need to be home; in order to protect your children from your W's affair.

Please read this again, and take note of ALL the elements, not just the EASY, PANSY ones; but ALL OF THEM:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

It's normal for the WS to mentally "rewrite" the marital history. They need to justify in their own minds that their behavior is okay so they can feel good about themselves and what they're doing.

This isn't something for you to worry overmuch about because it's not something you can effectively change right now. She's not going to respond to THE TRUTH as long as she's wearing her rose-colored glasses. If you get into recovery, that's a different story. She'll be more open to your POV then.


While it's true that the children are going to miss summer camp this year due to you wife's actions, and it's equally true that she needs to be accountable for causing that.... I'm wondering if you can turn this into a negotiation tool. (????)

Sometimes it's all a matter of presentation. What if you were to say to her, "Honey, I'd like to get together and talk about our financial situation. I'm concerned that the girls aren't going to be able to do any of their usual summer activities, and I don't want them to have to pay for our mistakes."

Then, after you get to the negotiation table, you could present the idea of moving into the on-premises apartment again. It's not the same as moving back into the house.... but it puts you home where you can keep an eye on things.

And if she STILL won't allow it, the option to force the issue through the courts is always available to you.

You REALLY DO need to see an attorney, Viking. Opinions from advice boards can get you started thinking about things in new ways....but it's no substitute for professional guidance.

I believe in North Carolina it's possible to sue the OM for 'alienation of affection'. While it might (or might not) be feasable to do so....the OM doesn't have to know that. The notion that YOU might be collecting a portion of his paycheck for the next 30 or so years might cool his ardor for your wife a bit.

And there's no substitute for being prepared with consequences for your wife's actions. Divorce changes the fiscal landscape. She might not be able to afford to keep the house when your assets are divided. She might have to work full-time outside the home in order to make ends meet. These are things that affect her decision making process, and it's possible that once she factors all the potential ramifications into the equation, she might become motivated to reconsider working on the marriage.

Another good reason to see an attorney is to protect yourself from making any mistakes that she can capitolize on. Probably the worst case-scenario if you were to take your things and just move back in...is that she might call the police and have you removed. If you were cooperative with the cops, that would most likely be the end of the incident. But....what if she went a step further and put a restraining order on you as we saw in the case of Good Father? That might not be the most probable scenario...but it bears consideration as a possibility.

And finally, when you're making a decision about seeing an attorney....keep this in mind. The money you spend on your lawyer in terms of investment potential can literally save you THOUSANDS of dollars. If your lawyer can keep you from making costly mistakes....it's a sound investment. There are quite a few that will give a free initial consult or only charge a minimal fee at your first appointment.

p.s. to MelodyLane. Please don't put words into my mouth. I have a right to my opinion....same as you afterall.

I think MB is a great program, but I also think there's a bit of nuance involved in saving marriages. There's an ebb and flow and a sense of timing to it that only the person involved intimately in his/her situation can truly grasp. That's my opinion.

The fact that I believe 'Rome wasn't built in a day', doesn't necessarily mean that I encourage Infidelity.

Ladyjane, you are telling him to scrub the girls bathroom on the SINKING TITANTIC. You are telling him to withhold livesaving techniques, at a time when he MOST NEEDS IT. WHICH IS BAD ADVICE. Scrubbing the girls bathroom might be cute advice but it is sure not helpful when the ship is going down!

The OM is in his home because he is OUT, his children are abandoned and his finances are being wrecked. He should be doing EVERYTHING to bust up this affair, yet you advise him to put away the stick when he most needs it. You advise him to "negotiate" with a crazy woman. You tell him he is not qualified to do everything to defend his marriage because of his past infidelity. You must be kidding me?

I realize you are NOT FAMILIAR with Marriage Builders [from the advice you give] but do this man a favor and let us help him save his marriage. Because this APPEASEMENT program you are laying on him will not do that. Plan A and B does not stand for APPEASEMENT and BUTT KISSING and will not save his marriage.

His wife is ****** bent on destroying his marriage and he should not be helping her in that endeavor, as he is now.

For example, he should not be "negotiating" with a crazy women when it comes to his finances and his children. He needs to PROTECT his finances and protect his children. PERIOD. He does not leave either to the mercy of an insane woman who is ****** bent on destroying his family. He needs to contact an attorney to get back into his house and get his finances PROTECTED FROM HER. You don't "negotiate" with someone who is ****** bent on DESTROYING YOU. That is the STICK of Plan A, LadyJane.

viking, you have some serious problems here that are not going to be resolved by tossing out one half of Plan A as LadyJane has suggested. Dr. Harley would tell you to get a hold of an attorney ASAP and get yourself protected. Get BACK in your house! Once you do that, then expose the affair and make it as uncomfortable as possible for the affairees.

And I will reiterate for viking my earlier comment:

"I have to disagree with LadyJane about not trying to bust up this affair. Your past does not disqualify you from working this program properly. Your past does not entitle her to have an affair and destroy your marriage and your children' lives. Your past has nothing to do with how you should treat her affair TODAY!"

Do not let anyone tell you that you should not defend your marriage from assault just because of your past infidelity.

To MelodyLane:

You know, I asked you....in what I considered to be a respectful manner...not to put words in my mouth. But instead of responding in kind, you chose to attack me in a way that I consider to be unwarranted.

That's your choice of course, but it says more about YOU than it ever will about me.

However, I'm happy to recuse myself from this discussion in deference to your apparent need to control this thread. Viking knows where to find me if he wants any further input.

Cheers.

LadyJane, I most certainly did not put words in your mouth. I am sorry you feel "attacked," but I feel strongly that this man should use ALL of the MB principles when he most needs them. Not just PART of them as you suggested because of his past sins.

I have no need to "control" this thread, but will respond when I see you giving a desperate newcomer very BAD ADVICE at a time when he most needs help.

Please I want to hear both sides, I have found great advice from both MJ and Landyjane, I have to find what works for me. And both of you giving me advice gives me more options

First, the OM is not in my house, my wife has agreed to keep all contact from him and my children. because the 3rd day after I had left, W, OM and my children and MIL all went to the park and went fishing, I called her on it and she agreed to keep him out of their lives.

Now, I am pretty sure, almost positive that their is no PA going on. She hasn't had the time and when she is not at home with the girls, I can track her cell phone and I know where she has been.

That being said she went to lunch with him yesterday.

I am taking the girls friday to a church function and she is going to "stay home" but will picke the girls up at 10pm when the function is over.... I am pretty sure she has plans to at least go see him and have dinner.

My W, does have morales and I think I would have to really push her over the edge (which I have come close too) to have her sleep with someone just for the sake of it.

I have asked her to sit down and talk about finances, since my first proposal for fair payment, is making it really hard on her. SHe had to go get gas money from her mother.

So I think a carrot I am going to use is to modify what I am going to pay here while she lives in the house to cover a bit more of her expenses.

Right now I keep referring to her and the OM as an Emotional Affair. Pisses her off.

I believe she is looking for time and space to decide to come back to me.

Since I really scared her and caused her to freak out by me coming to the house at night, I want not do anything to upset her for the next couple of weeks, doing a solid Plan A of making a warm home and someone she would want to be with.

Then around June 1, I will have to decide if I need to be strong and expose her OM to her friends - which are guys that keep asking her via email if I cheated and what I did to cause her to leave.... she never tells them the other side.

I have to say again I have been doing a lot for her for the past several months, domestic support, attention, affection, etc because that is what she said she was missing. But now none of that seems to have happened... I see why everyone says WS acts like an alien.....

I think what i will do is get ready for June 1, I will probably go to a lawyer layout what I want, more access to the kids, more financial security from her, move into the apartment to prepare the house for sale.... then have that waiting for June 1.

Yes NC has Alienation of Affection, I can take him to court with the information I have now and take a bit of his little money. That is one problem I have with the OM, he has nothing to loose, he doesn't make much. He has hit on other married women that are friends with his cousin. But right now he is captivating my wife with attention and nice words.

I would suggest seeing an attorney and getting yourself financially protected. You are essentially financing her affair right now, which is enabling her. She should not have access to your money or credit cards now. PLEASE get yourself financially protected. Negotiating with someone who is not trustworthy right, and only intends to HARM, will NOT protect you.


This is called ENABLING. You are HELPING her continue her affair by making things easy for her. You are contributing to your own demise.


Please do not change the English language to help her feel better about her bad behavior. That is ENABLING. She is having an affair, don't protect her from the consequences.


Let me assure you that she is only looking for "space" and "time" to carry on an affair. If she were interested in coming back, you would be together. Whenever an affairee says they need "space" it ALWAYS means they need SPACE to carry on their affair.

viking, I would implore you use all the tools here at Marriage Builders. I am sad that you have been misled into believing that you can APPEASE your way back into your marriage. YOU CAN NOT. Nor would the Marriage Builders program even advise as such. Plan A is USELESS without the stick because it only becomes a way to ENABLE the affair. As it is now, you are ENABLING the affair, to your detriment and the detriment of your children.

But I can see that my words are falling on deaf ears and you have chosen to take the path of least resistence. That path will avail you nothing. So, I will leave you in Ladyjane's hands since it seems she is most willing to encourage you on that path.

viking, the advice that I think would be most helpful in your situation is the MARRIAGE BUILDERS PRINCIPLES. That is what you should expect to hear when you come here. Never would that advice involve lopping off half of the principles to pay for your past crimes.

What I am telling you are TRIED AND TRUE MB principles that have worked for many, many people. Ignoring a large portion of those principles because of your past affair will DOOM your chances. These tactics have saved the marriages of many, many people which is why MB is so very successful.

I am not here to give "my side," but the MARRIAGE BUILDERS SIDE, because I KNOW it works. But cutting off the hard ones will get you NOTHING. Half measures will avail you nothing. Enabling your wife's affair will get you nothing.

So tomorrow I am taking the girls to a church movie night and I beleive my wife is going to dinner with the OM. I had a thought their is a lay leader in our church that has been counciling me and that my W really respects... they I know where they are at, should I ask him to go there and confront her and ask why she is out with another man while her family is at churhc... This Lay leader is a type that would take that on as a rightous cause for keeping any marriage under god together.

So this would be exposure and it would cause her great shame by having this person being the one to confront her?

Yeah and I am ducking the bullet so I don't have to do it.

I have called a lawyer and will meeting them next week.

I am going to talk to them about

1) Custody - I have a chance to have custody of the kids
2) finances - both protect and getting out of some debts
3) Alienation of Affection - I can sue the OM for damages
4) Possible court order to get back into the house

I did a good plan A tonight, as W was at her gymnastics coaching job, I took care of the girls.

Laundry hasn't been touched since Monday when I did it last, so I did 3 loads of her and kids close. Did a bunch of domestic stuff.

Left out a present I got on my trip to new york for her

and had the girls in bed by the time she got home.

Had realy brief words with her... well goodnight.

Did hang around, called her later to let her know I wasn't stalking around the house and she thanked me for cleaning up. Told me I didn't have to do it and I told her I know, I wanted too.

Now I just need to keep that up and get my Stick sharp.

Viking, you need to listen to Melody. She's been out here and helped hundreds of people get through this. Other folks chiming in with advice gleaned from having gone through this themselves are welcome, but they must have a thorough grasp of MB principles and requirements.

Second, you've already identified a big problem in yourself but I'm not seeing any improvement in your words. I thought Marines had cojones, mister. Cut out this neediness crap and straighten up. Women don't like needy men and every time you let your adulterous wife see you like that, you reduce her respect for you by several degrees of magnitude.

Third, I doubt the NC law actually restricts you from moving home. She asked you for some space, you gave it to her, now you move home. If you doubt your right to do so, get a darned attorney and find out for certain. Quit speculating and quit getting amateur advice.

Mister, you say you’ve committed adultery yourself. All right. It’s over with. It’s in the past and you’ve tried to make amends. You probably didn’t do it perfectly but I see remorse in your words. If need be, you can deal with it AFTER your wife's current adultery ends.

Here’s a fact you need to understand. Your adultery does not justify hers and you do NOT negotiate with her assuming it does. They are separate events that CAN be brought together in one healing recovery, but you’ll need professional counseling to do that. You do NOT surrender part of the stick of Plan A out of guilt for what you have done in the past. The carrot and stick are balanced, and they are part of the plan.

Viking, if you want to recover your marriage, you can. Appeasing your wife, though, and allowing her free time with that other man, will get you NOWHERE…absolutely nowhere. Appeasement got Chamberlain nowhere with Hitler; it’ll get you nowhere with the alien your wife has become.

If you decide to transform yourself into a proactive husband who wants his life and marriage back, tell us and there will be people out here to help you. Frankly, Marine, if you keep on down the road you’re on now, you’re going to lose your marriage. You might anyway. There’s no guarantee MB will work for your situation but there’s a very high probability it can. However, if you don’t get off your a$$ and get to work, you’ll have to live the rest of your life wondering if there wasn’t something more you could have done. Are you ready to get to work?

viking, that would be a good exposure. But I would also speak to your pastor and ask him to talk to her. Who else to whom could you expose?

Who is this OM? Can you contact his parents? What does he do for a living? Is he married?

If she is going out with her boyfriend tomorrow, I would let her know how very hurtful this is and disrespectful to you and your children.

Have you explained to your children what is going on here? That their mother is engaged in an affairs and that affairs are WRONG? Affairs are very morally confusing to children and they need moral guidance. They sense that affairs are immoral and if this is not validated, they are confused and begin to doubt their own instincts about right and wrong.

We went to MC yesterday and our counseler gave me the 5th for bringing in the children into the the discussion, even though my oldest had concern's mommy was on the phone too much with the OM and she was starting to feel neglected, I got a bit upset and told her that the OM is just trying to use your mother to get into bed with her.

I have heard from other sources the OM is a player, goes after married women and doesn't care of the impact. He's not married does have a good job, is a bit of a loof. I think that is one thing my W likes right now the fun side of things, he has no cares or worries. She isn't sleeping with him but she is txt msg him her love for him, I know the that the PA is right around the corner, especially if I dont' institute a solid plan A and stop my whinning and clingyness.

I am going to call our lay leader this morning and see if he is willing to help expose. I think simply if I find out where they are at I will call him tell him and he will just walk in like he was going to be there anyways and just tell her how disappointed he is of her, that would really cause her to sink and make the date seem akward.


Again I want to through caution in here and ask, if she is just friends with this guy and they are having a frienly good time, even though his attentions are more sexual, if she just keeps him as a friend do I still go full bore with exposure. I have had friends in the past that wanted a relationship but I didn't engage and we still remained friends. I am truly worried that if i attack her about an affair and their truly isn't one, I defeat my purpose.... That is why I will continue to gather evidence

She asked me about health insurance, because she is thinking if we divorce she isn't covered under mine anymore. I sent her a link to Blue Cross Blue Shield, is that enabling of being respectful?

by the way last night when she got home from work, I said goodnight and left without saying one R thing and went straight home and didn't think about the OM or anything negative the whole way. I find that controlling the negative thoughts is greatly helping impliment plan A. Before i would creat worse case scenarios in my head and then react to it like they were really happening.

She had a whole week to see the OM and did so only 1 for lunch.

Is it appropriate to txt mgs WS each day to wish them a good day and home they have fun???

Correction the OM doesn't have a good job, he is a handyman does construction, lives with friends and basically exist out of his 77 bronco. He smokes and drinks, but not around the W. He has been caught lying to her - he even went out and got some from a bar fly when my wife wasn't available to go out and hang out. He is waiting for his opportunity to sack her but does get his own action on the side.

I honestly believe my wife knows all this but because of the pain and desire to get away from me and the issue of our marriage she is ignoring it and having the fun life.... I am just worried he will wear her down and convince her to sleep with him, which will put me into another tailspin.... or maybe it wont, I have been focusing on myself so much that what she is doing is not bothering me as much, and I still gathering information on her A so when the time comes to expose I don't look like a schmuck

viking, did you read what I wrote about telling your pastor? What about her parents? Do they know about the affair? What have they been told? How much exposure has been done?

I would not delude yourself into rationalizing this into anything except an affair. Women don't kick their husbands out over "friendships." You need to face the fact that this is an affair.

How do you know that the OM is single? Is this something your W has told you? Because if so, I would verify it. It is very common for a WS or an OP to LIE about marital status.

When is your appt with your attorney?


Try and put this in age appropriate terms. Explain to them that married people are suppposed to only be romantic with each other. Tell that adultery is WRONG and explain to them that their mother is doing a bad thing. Your kids need to have your guidance on this.

I'd also like to add my voice to MelodyLane's.

Move back into your house.
EXPOSE!
Protect your finances and your kids.

And, I'd like to mention that the guy your wife was "talking to" from 6 years ago also counts as an affair. So, I agree that your cheating 5 years ago should not affect whether you expose or not.

Married people should not be "talking to" ANYONE of the opposite sex AT ALL!

And, I'm sorry, but I think your wife has already become physical with OM, if she's doing the ILUs in text messaging.

So I had my consultation with an attorney, told him everything about what is going on and the past and what I have and what I think my W is doing.

As you have said, I have been bit of a fool.... North Carolina 's legal system is very conservative about marriage and frowns on those who break it up, and that is very true in the rural county I live in. He thinks that with everything I have I could look at having a positive settlement if my w decides to go to court. I could gain custody and I might not have to pay all or any alimony.

I am the one trying to keep the marriage together.

He is also going to send the OM a very blunt letter from his office stating the Alienation of Affection law and that he needs to discontinue contact with my W, or face legal action. Which last year in NC a husband was awarded 100,000 from the OM because he caused his bank executive wife to leave.

I sit down with him May 16 to draft up separation paperwork, based on what the court says and not what her or I say. Then he will serve her with them.

All the time I will be working on my Plan A.

viking, can you not go home? It's important to protect your children and your finances frm her, but you can't very well repair your marriage if you are not home and she is free to carry on her affair. Going home is a CRITICAL PRIORITY in addition to EXPOSURE.

You need to be home with your children.

I can't go home - the law says

Now I am talking to my attorney about that and we will have to fight for it, but he thinks I could win because I am the main bread winner, i have examples of my wifes affair, and that I do most of the domestic support around the house... but we will have to fight for it.

So I brought the kids home from school so my W could work at her dream job, well I went into her (our) room to check to see if any condom's were missing, 10 seconds later she walked in, got really angry told me to stay our of her stuff and never wants me at the house again.

Was what I was doing disrespectful or with in my rights since she is talking and see another man and I don't know if they are having a PA yet.

If she didn't have anything to hide, would she be upset?

Have your attorney press the issue. You need to get home, Vik, and you need to do it as soon as you can.

Is your attorney taking steps to get you back into your house? That is the most important thing.

And no, it is not disrespectful to go into your own room. It is disrespectful to HAVE AN AFFAIR.

So we have had an interesting weekend.. on Friday I took the kids to church for a movie night. My W went out after her dream job... I thought it was with the OM. I took the kids home and waited for her, she was suppose to be home at 10 but didn't get home until 11:30..... she said she felt very dizzy and almost passed out, unfortunately I did a little LB becasue I accussed her of being with OM but instead she was with Gym friends.... So I left frustrated, she called me and asked if we can be civil for our kids.

She is still very pissed off at me snooping.

Now saturday she calls me and says she going to ER... I immediately go home to take care of the kids, the night before she asked me to not to come until sunday to take them to church..... So I spent the day with the kids, I had a great time with them, something I use to take for granted and when kids were kids and got on each other I was short to cut them off with a strong voice and sturn warning, now I am very calm with them and my oldest daughter noticed and says I yell a lot less.... I have also notice a change in the kids response when I ask.

Anyways, I had to take my daughter to 4-H and stay with there with her. One of my wifes friends was there also and I found out that she has a similiar situation to my, she was talking to someone while her husband was away and she said some the same things my wife has said, about neglect and not being their for the family. It was a interesting time because I heard things from wifes friends about her side of the story that I haven't heard from the W.

I might have said to much about MB and the principals that I am following as this is a friend of my W I think our conversation got back to her, and I talked up the situation with the OM. I never talked bad about my W, but did talk negative about the OM - the player.

So my wife was diagnoised with severe inner ear inflamation and a cycst on one of her overies, she stayed at her mom's last night and I stay at the house wit the kids.

I got paniced last night that I thought she was out with the OM, even knowing she was very tired and sick, so I wrestled the kids up and took a drive, guess what. No OM no activity what so ever..... How do you get over the fear and be paranoid?????

So Sunday I took the kids to church, took them roller skating, and then offered to take my W to a important meeting for her dream job, but she decide to drive herself.

So I have done all her laundry, most of the kids laundry, made all the beds, and vaccumed the house.

When she gets back tonight and going to say good night and leave, she has been asking for some time and space, without conflict and I haven't been able to deliver that.

I have exposed to more people the EA that my wife is having, which I think is dying down because of the hours my wife has to dedicate to the kids and her job, she has less time to cling to OM and the saw the OM's vehicle at the bars again, he took sometime off to talk to my W. So he seems to be on the prawl again..

I am now worried that my wife isn't having an affair but truely doesn't love me and wants to have her freedom back. and she has two flaws, 1) she avoids conflict and doesn't deal with it very well 2) she has never forgived anyone of anythings. People that have know her for 9 years say she doesn't forgive, she withdrawls and steams over it. I can testify to that.

Well thought I would post an update

Viking, you're reacting to your wife instead of being proactive. Folks have given you some pretty good advice. How about you start working on a solution instead of getting worked up so badly. It's not helping at a time when you could be doing so much. Are you going to get control of yourself and get to work? We'll be here for you, but you've got to set up a plan and get to work on it, pardner. Let us know what you want to do.

So I hope I have committed myself to a proper plan A...

I don't hestiate to mention the hurt I feel when she talks to the OM.

I have exposed her relationship to friends, she almost seems not to care, since she insist its just a friend..

My problem is that a lot of things she has said I needed to fix and change, I have. My daughter told me a story last summer about how they would put a plate out for dinner for me and pretend I was there and talk to me as if I was... while I was working. Since that time I have been home for almost every dinner, and our kids who use not to say a dinner prayer, say one with me there. but she doesn't make them..... and she is the one that brought me back into the church.

So I have not LB since Friday and I have been trying to be supportive of her while she is not feeling well.

When you say proactive I thought I was being proactive on some of the things I was doing, but your right I am also being reactive since I am trying to find opportunities to meet her needs.

So please if you could provide some more examples of being proactive, let me know.

My W is playing our of the WS hadnbook, she got upset with me about talking to our oldest about the OM, but she told my oldest last year about my infidelity and my daughter was very upset with me for a long time, unlike her mother she moved on. But I think its another example of her revising our history.

viking, have you spoken to your W's parents and told them about the affair? What about your pastor? Are there any key people who have influence over her?

And secondly, what is your attorney doing to get you back in your house so you can work on your marriage? Is he helping you protect your finances?

It would be helpful if you would start looking for ways to disrupt this affair. You are making it very easy for her to have an affair.

I think you did the right thing talking to your oldest about the affair. As long as it was age appropriate and you explained to him/her the moral ramifications of adultery. Kids know this is wrong and need moral guidance.

viking, and you should NOT deliver that. You should deliver as much CONFLICT as possible to her AFFAIR. When she asks for "space," she means she is asking for "space" to carry on her affair. Let her know that you will not give her the space to carry on an affair.

You should NOT help her have an affair. Got that, viking? And moving out to give her "space" does exactly that.

When can you go home?

Viking, you are being proactive about some things but you're still reacting to every unexpected absence with panic and anger. You’ve got to let that level off or you’re going to start hurting your children with the mood swings. How about going to your doctor, explaining to him/her what you’re going through and get a prescription for anti-depressants? That’ll help a lot.

A great proactive step was getting your attorney. Not only did you begin to receive legitimate legal advice, you found out you were in a stronger position than you thought. That’s great. I hope your attorney gets that letter out soon warning the OM of your intention to file for alienation of affection. I suspect OM is going to start backing off REAL soon after he gets that. Stay on your attorney to get that letter out ASAP.

Another proactive step is the anti-depressants I mentioned above. Go get the medical help you need. Like your attorney, I expect your doctor can be more helpful than you imagine. A third proactive measure would be to set up a coherent plan for marital recovery. I put a sample of such a plan on a thread started by Larry_Daniels a couple of days ago. His thread can be found here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...0&fpart=all

Scroll down until you see my post on the plan. I only reference this to give you an idea of what can be done. What I put together is not all-inclusive and it’s not tailored for your particular circumstances, but it should give you an idea of where you can go.

Like Melody said, you need to get back home so you can do a good Plan A. How’s that coming? Is your attorney working hard on that too? Have you considered getting some individual counseling to begin working on yourself? Find one who might also do couples counseling, is experienced with cases of infidelity, and (very important) is pro-marriage.

I’m concerned about a couple of things. First, you mentioned your WW was going out until very late with “gym friends.” That’s a red flag to me. Second, I can’t figure out where WW and OM met unless it was at that bar at which you mentioned he’s now reappeared. A lot of barhopping, for want of a better term, is not a good sign.

Also, why are you baby-sitting for her while she goes out drinking? Does that make sense? Can you say “enabler?” By the way, a sudden interest in improving one’s physical shape and conditioning is one of the possible signals of an affair in progress.

Okay, enough for one post. Hang in there, Viking. You’ve started addressing your problems and that’s great. No wound ever gets better by leaving it alone and allowing it to fester. Hang in there, pardner.

So my W has a nextel I have the GPS service turned on her phone I can track her phone minute by minute so I know if she is where she says she is....

So my W doesn't drink if she drives... So I over reacted - but I think everyone her understands why - when she went out with the gymnastics friends, I would rather her be surrounded by good people than out with the OM.

I am also realizing, from talking to friends that have worked and know my wife for at least 10 years, that a lot of what is going on is not me. My wife is selfish and wants things for her. So she is 32yr old, but we got married when she was 20, had our first child at 21, was in the military, moved to a state neither of us had friends or family. I worked like a dog to get her nice house nice things and thought I was doing things right.

Now, part of my own past. I believe my family is very disfuntional and I promised myself not to have a family like that... where no one says I love you and expression of feelings is not shown, where individuals wants and needs are meet before the families...... well you guys have probably already guessed it. I have a relationship with my W that is similiar to my mom and dad's. Dad worked to provide for the family and did so to avoid conflict and the hardships of marriage.... I went down that same path, I believe my wife did try and tell me that in the past, but her own inability to communicate and she avoids conflicts hadn't reached my inner thoughts.

Well they now have, and I have been praying and focusing on that for a long time. but my wife has letting go issues, she has lost several friends because the smallest injustice (she thinks) leaves her with such resentment and anger she moves on.

So I have talked to my lay leader and friends at church, they knew some of what was going on but they didn't know the relationship with the OM. My pastor actually told me that I need to give her time and space.... but our lay leader told me he was absolutely wrong, christians need to confront and hold up their values rather than taking the wait and see approach.

I worry that this pressure is going to start causing more health problems for my W. She said while she was at the hospital they had her on a EKG and whenever they started talking about what was going on in her life, the thing would alarm, she even told me she blames my snooping and her fear of me (I don't know why she fears me other than finding out about the OM) for her medical problems.

I can't wait to get the medical bill, for all the test they performed on her, cat scan, blood work, examinse.... I want her to see what it would cost if my insurance didn't pay for it... She is looking at Blue Cross Blue Shield for after the my healthcoverage ends for her.... its not going to be very sweet of a deal.

I am getting nervous for on the 11th I get our latest cell phone bill, last month she talked 3500 minutes, 3000 of them with the OM most of them her calling him. Now this month she talked 2700 minutes a good bit to OM, but he called her... Its just goig to be sad to see the call record details..... but I can say that he has called her a LOT less since my intervention and her having to stay home with the kids a lot more....

I am just still worried about the OM leaving and my W still has nothing to do with. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

viking, be assured that this affair has NOTHING to do with you and everything to do with her poor choices. Almost ALL waywards try to claim that their affair has "nothing" to do with the current state of affairs. But think how silly that is. There is nothing more harmful to a marriage than an affair. NOTHING. Nor are you responsible for her affair. So get the notion out of your head that this has anything to do with you. That is nonsense.

I am completely disgusted at your pastor. It is not biblical to sit by idly while sin takes place. Your W wants "space" for one reason and one reason only: TO CARRY ON AN AFFAIR. There is nothing Christian about accommodating evil that leads to the destruction of your family.



Did that guilt trip "work?" Was she able to successfully manipulate you into believing this so you would stop catching her in her affair?

And I ask again, viking, how are you going to get back into your home so you can save your marriage?

Viking, your wife and you both could stand a strong dose of individual counseling to resolve past (childhood) issues. You're trying to rectify any problems dating from that time but some professional help couldn't hurt. Maybe some of the same will kick start your wife's recovery too.

Good on you for going to your church. I'm disappointed with your pastor's reaction but your lay leader's response is dead on target. Will he contact your WW and attempt to counsel her? Ask him to. It could be highly effective. Your pastor's advice is 180 degrees off. Your wife's adultery is only 6 weeks old. Swift action (confrontation, exposure, and Plan A) can stop the progress of the adultery.

Who's next for exposure? Have you found anyone on the OM's side yet to put some pressure on this? Don't overlook his workplace. With that many minutes used up on your WW's cell, it stands to reason he's probably been using company time to conduct his predatory stalking.

Viking, see if you can confirm your wife's story about the EKG. Frankly, it sounds to me like an attempt to manipulate you into backing off on the intelligence gathering and exposure. I can easily be wrong on that issue, but adulterous spouses are aliens beamed down from the mother ship. The rule of thumb is that when an alien's mouth is moving, it is lying. Take everything she says with more than a grain of salt, okay?

Ya gotta love that GPS feature on Nextel huh? It's a great addition to your intelligence operation. Can you get a keylogger on any computer she uses? If she figures out the cell phone is a security risk for her fantasy, she may switch to emailing OM or using IM to send messages.

Viking, I understand your concern about the future even if the OM is out of the picture. Your marriage needs a lot of work. The thing is, the book Surviving An Affair by Dr. Harley contains techniques for you and your spouse to make your marriage stronger and better than it ever has been. For talking purposes, the first half of that book talks about busting up affairs and the last half talks about making marriages better after an affair.

Pardner, put your worries aside on this issue for the time being. You can't do anything about it until you get the adultery broken up so don't stress yourself out on it. It's just not productive right now. You can deal with that when the time comes.

Stay with your plan, Viking. Everyone here at MB is rooting for you.

Thanks guys I am ad addict now to MB and its a good addiction.

The OM has no family near and is self employeed handyman/contractor. They guys he works with all are divorced or cheating its kinda of the adultery gang.

Yeah I got a keylogger on her machine... matter of fact I am on her machine right now.

Took the kids fishing today, had an excellent time. Spent over an hour out there, its right next to the house. Another stunning thing she is willing to through away.

We have had some financial problem because of the house we are in and our old house not selling for 18 months. So we got in a bind financially, we I didn't take care of things before they got out of hand. So we got some nasty notes from creditor's, which is is an issue with my W.
When we first got married we had a vehicle repossed while we were in the military. Yet again me trying to buy what ever she wanted. So finances is something that she is always concerned about but always likes to spend money.

Well I found out today our Mortgage company is going to modify our loan to take our late payments and spread it across the loan, that was the last thing that I needed to take care of to get all our finances in order.

We aren't out of the woods yet, we have another year on some cars and loans before we start seeing our savings grow but right now we are surviving. Which pisses me off that I am taking care of the things that bother her, and they are things I should have done previously.

I talked to my father tonight, I informed him of the OM. My family only know we are separated, but he now knows about the OM.

I am planning on meeting the lawyer next week, first I was going to have him draft up the separation paperwork. I think now i am going to have him provide me with action plan to do the following.

1) Send OM a letter telling to have no contact with my wife
or family. Or face Civil action under NC laws about
alienation of affection - funny they call the law to sue
the OP "alien"
2) How I can get back into the house
3) How I can get custody of my kids or at least 50%
4) How I can keep the house and provide little support for
the W. So I can continue to keep the house at least
until it sells

I have read surviving the affair - found it very good
Its sitting on my W dresser unopened

I also got the 5 langues of love, read it
Sitting on my wifes dresser unopened

I have read after the affair, guess where its at.

I cleaned a couple of more rooms in the house today, I also did dish's (that were left in the sink).

Kids are bathed and ready for bed... when she had them and tried to avoid dealing with me the kids weren't in bed before 9pm.

That was when I was continuely love busting or spying on her. Today before she left for gymnastics I was pleasant and tried to keep it lite, but she just looked at me with the evil eyes and I smiled back.... think it pissed her off <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I also offered because she is suppose to be resting and not working so much... I offered to come to the house at 6am to get the kids up and take them to school allowing her to sleep an extra two hours.... but she turne that offer down.

She is trying to be very indepedent and trying to avoid me and things I provide at all cost.

Left her the debt card for our account but it hasn't been accessed for a week, I think she is livign off of her paychecks which wont last to long.

I honestly don't know what I could do about her parents dad has no weight with her and mom seems to be a bit of an enabler

Well, you've identified one of her big emotional needs (EN) that may come into play later on...that of financial security. I think she's already come up against it when she saw how little her dream job is paying. You may want to consider pulling back that debit card. Make her use up her own resources and come up against the wall that much sooner.

Is she contributing half of the mortgage payment from her income? She should. She's the one who made you move out. It's because of her you have to pay rent now. I don't know if you want to make a point of this, but even mentioning it might put pressure on the affair and every little bit more pressure is a good thing.

What's the story on exposing at her workplace? Have you thought about that in detail?

Okay let me share our financial analysis with you

My income last year 232,000.00
Here income last year 1200.00

So as you can see I am the breadwinner by a bit.

I always was proud of not needing her to work to have the things we have, she was suppose to be doing things at home, but she didn't and I think that is part the reason I went outside the marriage years ago to have my cake.

But I want to assure you all I am dedicate to my marriage and wife. She does me a lot to me and is why I will try as hard and long as I can.

I just worry what if the relationship turns PA - that is going to destroy me, even though I know I did something similiar. What hurts is when she found out I stopped and I changed - she knows that.

But now with this going after I confronted her its pretty hard to take.

LOL

Okay, she can't contribute half the mortgage huh? Even I can see that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Any thoughts on exposing at her workplace?

Very good! Now you are on the right track!



Might this be overkill, viking? Meeting her needs doesn't mean being a doormat and this almost reaches that level. I like the other stuff you are doing.


I would pick up that debit card so she doesn't plunder the account. She can pay for her own expenses.


i would tell them about the affair and ask for their help and influence in saving your marriage. Even though her dad might not have any weight, he needs to know what is going on. Sometimes just the fact that others KNOW causes great conflict in the affair, and that is what you want.

You are doing good, viking! Just get yourself back in that house!!

So a quick update from last night.... I got the kids bathed and in bed before she got home.... I put out a drink and napkin and spoon for her and as I heard her come in I turned on the microwave to warm some soup up for her.

She asked me what I was doing and I said I am making you some soup, she snapped I didn't ask you to do that. I said I know but I wanted to do it anyways.

I waited in the kitchen for the microwave to be done, she came in and looked at me and said are you leaving, I said I was waiting for the soup to be done. Then she gave me the look of being pissed so I said good by to my oldest and walked out without starting anything with her and went on my merry way.

One of the interesting things about being on a good plan A and working through your own thoughts and actions is that I feel more at peace with myself now. For the past two nights I slept soundly and didn't wake in panic or rush to the computer to see if her cell phone minutes had increased.... which last week everynight she would talk 40 minutes or so with the OM. Since she has been so tired she hasn't talked to him. I also think (hope) that he is getting tired of her not being available to go hang out with him. So he is going out and doing his own thing.

I do worry though that she might have gotten a second cell phone for her private conversations.... I also think when she plans on meeting him she will turn off her nextel because she knows I can track that.....

Longhorn, you'll like this. Since I know she will turn off her phone to so I can't track her. I took my daughter's nextel which she doesn't use and turned on GPS tracking on that. Once I get a chance I am going to put the other Nextel in my wifes SUV in the back under all her trash plugged into a cigarette lighter and will have a GPS tracker in her vehicle that hopefully she wont find out about. So even if her phone is off I will know about were she is at... it wont be as accurate because it wont be real GPS but it will be within a mile of where she at.

I tried to move my lawyers appt up to this week but he is in court this week, so I am going to hold onto my appt next week, same day we have MC.

So something else that I thought about that made me mad about my W(alien) attitude, was that I have been talking to my oldest about what her mom is doing and what I think of the OM... Age appropriate. My wife is mad at me for doing that and I should leave the kids out of this.... but back in August when we had a split and were going down this same path, she told my daughter that I had slept with another person and that my wife was very mad and hurt by me. My daughter told me recently she had hated me after her mom told her that and only recently started to forgive me. So how is it okay for her to do it but not for me?

Its not I know, but its more evidence that she is in a fog and on the alien mothership.

She was pissed about the soup, but I doubt she was able to sustain it for even a few seconds after you left. No big deal. Maybe next time, just push the timer button, tell her the soup is there, then smile and walk away? That way she has no focus point for her anger.

As far as a GPS device, heck, here's a good one that you might find on Ebay or HALF.com for less than the retail price. I wouldn't count on your daughter's Nextel providing you enough information. You might not have it in the car the one day you need it there or WW might just clean out the car. Adulterers do things to make themselves (and their possessions) attractive to their partner in adultery. When you're done with the GPS tracker, btw, you can sell it on line to another person who needs it.

Check it out:

http://www.landairsea.com/


Keep on your attorney about getting back into your home. She doesn't want you home because she won't be as free to continue her affair, but the old saw about "absence makes the heart grow fonder" is abject nonsense. Absence makes adulterers more comfortable and allows them freedom to indulge themselves. Your children deserve a full-time father, and you deserve the right to attract her back to the marriage.

One more time: how's the exposure coming? What about exposing her at her workplace? Before you ask, no…since it's so important, I won't quit asking.

Yes, she will tell the kids about your frailties and gloss over, or ignore, her own. Some day, she'll understand how wrong that was, but that day has not come. Don't expect little things like logical analysis from your wayward wife right now. She's incapable of it. As an analogy, you wouldn't expect a drunk alcoholic to be able to engage you in a reasonable discussion about the dangers of drunk driving, would you? Unfortunately, the addiction of the adultery is too similar to a physical addiction for comfort.

Hang tough, Viking. As you said, just knowing you are doing something to fight makes all the difference in the world.

So here is my afternoon update.... for the first time since 1994, I ran 8.5 miles for lunch and felt great. I am down 34 lbs since March 31st.

To give you a perspective in august I dropped from 299 to 270 in about 3 weeks from emotional rollercoaster I lost because I stopped eating and panicking....

This time I am on a regiment and diet, its lean but its a diet that will get me to my goal. I want to be down to 225 and get my marine corps build back.

You know EVERY person I walk by says how great I look, I even got some looks from some young ladies in the gym.... don't worry I am focused on the prize.... even my daughters say I look good, but nothing from the W... but that is expected.

I just can't wait until this summer when she ask me to come to the pool to watch the girls so she can go to her job, I walk in and then she will know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The second nextel will always be in her car so as long as she doesn't discover it I will always have a second receiver in her car.

I pretty sure their is no opportunity for her to meet him during the week, its the weekend I worry about. I already go plans friday and saturday night so its up to her to get her mom or someone to watch the kids, if she goes out with him. She should be staying home in bed.

She works at the preschool at our church and most of them know most of what is going on. She has already told them that i am over reacting about her friend and its more aboutt her and I.... I have go back to those people and explained what is going on and they are very shocked and saddened by her action, since she is suppose to be a christian. I talked to her boss and we agreed not to be bluent about the exposure at work, since she might just get up and quite, but they are going to start showing her some christian love and start trying to get her to think more about her decision.

One thing I need to point, the things I say I am doing as part of Plan A - cleaning, shopping, dish's, laundry... those are all things I have been doing since august. But her complaint now is that I am trying to do everything...
I have tried to ask her how we can share the work, but when we talked about it and split the chores her's were never done, so I continued to do it.

I am concerned that she has gotten comfortable in that I will always be there and no matter what she does I will be there...... I was thinking really how long I need to be in Plan A, since I have been doing even before this A started... I want to start thinking of Plan B in june that would be 3 months after D-day and good 7 months of actually doing it....

I want to tie that in with a custody and me getting back into the house hearing... almost like a ton of bricks for her to think about

Okay, let me get this straight. You agreed with her boss she shouldn't be outed because she might get upset and quit, right? Viking, you (and her boss) are doing one h3ll of a job of shielding her from the consequences of her adultery. I did a search on your thread and found several instances where you were warned against that.

Don't treat her like a child, Viking. SHE made the cruel choice to indulge herself with a selfish adultery and SHE has to "suffer" the indignity of facing it. If there is no consequence, there is no learning process and no incentive to change. Viking, are you kidding us? Come on, quit shielding her from the consequences of her choices.

Getting into shape is one of the things you do in Plan A. Don’t wait for the summer. Be putting your shirt on after attending to something the next time she comes in the door. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I’m uneasy about you doing all the chores even though she should be doing some of them. Again, you’re treating her with kid gloves and more like a child than a functioning adult. Plan A is not designed for you to become a doormat or upstairs maid for your WW. I’m inclined to suggest you do the chores you said you’d do…and gently remind her of the ones she hasn’t done. She’ll say she’s too busy. You remind her you don’t live there but you want to move home.

I don’t know if you’ve read SAA. If you haven’t, you need to. Seriously, you NEED to. Anyway, if you read the sections on Plans A and B, the first item on Dr. Harley’s checklists for both of those plans is “set a time limit.” That's my way of transitioning into saying I think it's great you have determined an approximate time frame for ending Plan A and beginning Plan B. You're getting your recovery plan together and working it nicely.

Let’s hope your Plan A works and your WW agrees to NC and begins working energetically on the marriage. Sometimes it does work; Dr. Harley says about 15% of the time. You are going to be able to do a fantastic Plan B though. Your WW is not going to like being “out in the cold” one darn bit. A ton of bricks indeed.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “tying that to a hearing.” You don’t anticipate being back in the family home before June?

So I meet with the lawyer tomorrow to go over the letter to the OM, that is all I can afford right now.

Next week I go to the lawyer to talk about custody and moving back into the house and that will probably take a court order that will take 1-2 weeks to schedule... I am assuming all this and will have more information next week about the actual legal steps to get the kids and the house back.

next week I will have a war chess so I can go to the lawyer and have enough money to get my action plan done. I think I have to be preemptive on the lawyer and the cost since by law we both have equal access and right to our maritial accounts.

I think what I meant to say about her boss and outing at work is that she has already admitted to them that she has talked to other men not just this one but they are all friends.

So question is what should I suggest to people that I expose to do, call her up and call her an adultress or when the are presented an opportunity to talk to her they can tell them how sad they are and think she should consider the kids and the family before she makes any decisions.....

On a side note because we have talked so much about alien abductions I know visuallize my wife with a trout head when she talks and its all blah blah blah lie lie lie, its very humorous.

I am starting to feel that my wife has gotten a secret phone since he doesn't text page her anymore and that her minutes have really dropped off especially at night... so I can be assured how much contact she is having with him.

How since she has been extremely tired since last week and he usually talked after the kids went to bed it could just be a lull.

I will wait and see, it would be nice that she did go the secret phone route, because that would tell me that she is not as serious as I think she might be about this guy.

I know that is going to gain me some flaming but how many times does a Plan A go too far in outing and upsetting the balance in a marriage, but if this is 100% her and I issues and this guy is a sidenote, I know its a important side not but at the sametime it could just a sidenote....

Would measured response rather than the nuclear option be wise as you navigate through this mind field.

Okay, waiting on a war chest is better than not having a war chest at all. Preemptive is a good thing. I don't know a single betrayed spouse out here who gained a THING by waiting to see what fate dealt him or her.

About exposure: I don't know anymore where you are on that. Do you have a list prepared or are you finished with exposure? If you're going to do another round of it, you make sure you have your thoughts lined up. You review the emails, IM's, phone records, whatever you have. Then you sit down and talk with the person you are exposing to...or call, or email. Personal contact works best. I personally like calling spades shovels. It's how I am. It's a personal preference but you decide whether you want to call it adultery or an affair. What you do is take a deep breath and just launch.

How about this? I just threw it together after I read your post. "I'm sorry I have to tell you this, FIL, but your daughter is (having an emotional affair)/(committing adultery) with a man she met __________. “ Sometime in the discussion, you make a point of saying something to get across the information that, “I love my wife and I want her back and I hope you will do everything you can to urge her to stop this obscenity and commit wholeheartedly to a better marriage and to her children." I hope that gives you a starting point.

I don't have a clue why you say you hope she's got an affair phone now. (It happens often enough we have a term for it.) It means they are still in contact and it means she's learning how to conceal her adultery from you. It means the affair is going to deepen. Why in the world is that a good thing? Actually, it means she's getting MORE serious about him.

You keep assuming you’ve done something to bring about this adultery. You haven’t. Nothing you have done caused it. Betrayed spouses do not cause their partners to commit adultery. The most culpability they have is that they may not have done all they could have to prevent the adultery. While your wife can blame you and “everything” you’ve done for (XX) years, the fact is SHE chose to address a perceived problem by going outside the marriage. Nothing justifies that. Nothing.

Your marriage has two problems. The first, and the most dangerous, is her adultery. The two of you need to fix that. Once a recommitment has been made, then you begin to work on all the other weaknesses that have built up through the years. I think this process can start soon after NC is permanently in place. Professional counselors can help you through this. Find yourself a pro-marriage counselor who is experienced with infidelity in addition to all the other problems a family encounters. Then work on it.

By “Plan A” going to far, I assume you mean exposure? The answer is no. Exposed spouses often threaten to leave. You’ll hear things like this: “I can never trust you again…I thought you loved me but no one who did could do what you just did…I was going to work on the marriage but now I see there’s nothing to work on.” Etc., etc.

While many threaten to leave, very few actually do. Of those who leave, most are soon back. Angry, prickly as a porcupine, and not a little defiant…but back home so the BS can do a good Plan A. I can only think of one case in the almost two years I’ve been on MB where the wife moved out after exposure and stayed away. Frankly, the exposure only moved up the date she was going to move.

Measured response? What kind of “measured response” are you considering? Again, is that a question about exposure?

Oh, and visualizing your wife as an alien is an excellent technique. I like the fish-head thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry I didn't read my post as clear, I am hoping that she didn't get a affair phone, if she is still using the nextel knowing that it can be tracked, knowing i can see inbound text messages then its not as secretive as if she got a pay as you go then its a full blown affair and PA probable is occuring.

Her mother and father have heard me talk about the text messages and I even read some of them to them while they lived with us a few weeks. So they are aware of what type of relationship this is.

Now the 3rd day that i was out of the house, my W, daughters , MIL and the OM went to the park and went fishing. That through me to the ground, I found out because my daughters told me....

Now my MIL didn't know the details at that time but she know s them now. So I am not sure what she thinks of this whole thing. I am really counting her family our right now.

I am working on friends and church member's. Our lay leader friend and his wife have called the house a couple of time trying to get up with my W but she wont return their calls. but I think they are going to go over to the house and try and see her.

So I am also documenting that she has been perscribed medication for her vertigo and inner-ear inflamation and was referred to a neurologist... but she isn't taking the meds for the vertigo because she needs to drive and she hasn't made the doctors appt for the follow up. Lawyer says that will help my case in custody - if she is not willing to take care of herself how is she going to take care of the kids.

Yeah I have another round of exposing to do and this one will hit all her close friends and people that she cares about closely thus it will destroy her.

Do I go into some detail about her EA, like the 3000 minutes phone bill and the text messages he sends her? Do I provie any detail or do I just expose the EA and let me people make up their own mine.... Everyone I tell about the 3000 minutes all come to the same conclusion, that its not normal and that something is up with her and him

Whew! That's better. Affair phones are nothing to be wished for.

You're doing well on the exposure list and I think your MIL has about the right amount of information. As you say, the tremendous amount of minutes she's using up on line makes an affair self-evident. You might also point out that time is time taken away from your children and the marriage.

You can also speak of some of the things the two partners in adultery have discussed, but just enough to make it clear what is going on. There’s no need to get into the more seamy ones, but I don’t think it would be wrong to refer to “other, more graphic” emails (and/or text messages) you have in your possession. After a little of that, perhaps you close off the discussion of that with something to the effect that “other (emails, etc.) make it clear what they were planning.”

You do not show them the emails or any of the other proof. You’re not in court and you don’t have to produce evidence to show the jury.

Do the lay minister and church members also have the information your MIL has? My point is, your message should be uniform. You don’t tell one person about phone calls only, for instance, another about IM’s, still another about her meeting him, etc. If they compare notes, they should all know the same points.

The medication problem is a side issue I wouldn’t bring up in exposure because it serves no point. That’s for your attorney to deal with. Aside from the infidelity, I think he could go after a Protection Order to keep your son (a) away from the other man, and (b) out of any car in which she is the driver. I cannot believe she’s driving him around in that condition.

Stay with it, Viking. You're coming along very well. We can tell.

Its wednesday and last wednesday she had lunch with the OM so now I have it in the back of my mind that wednesday's are their day.... I am also concerned because she freely offered up that I picke the kids up from school... which gives her more free time after her preschool job. So I am going to be very curious about what takes place this afternoon.

I was going to ask her to pick the kids up because of my lawyer appt. Which I didn't get a chance to ask.

So I am going to monitor her nextel GPS and see what happens. I already have a plan with a friend that if she goes and see's him I am going to go out there, in a car she doesn't recognize and see what happens.... now this is all subjective to her going out to see him. If she stays on town and hangs out with her mom that then I know she isn't trying to be with this OM that much.

Will have to wait and see

Viking, finding out where she is going is excellent. But Mister, if you can't hang on to your temper, don't even THINK about going out there yourself. I know Marines. I have a nephew recently promoted to Captain in the Corps and I've watched him put his company through its paces. You can do yourself and your children incredible harm if you start acting like a Marine this afternoon. DON’T DO IT!

Have you considered asking your friend to take along a quality digital camera on his sleuthing? Catching a shot of WW kissing OM, for instance, goes a LONG way with a family court judge, particularly in your state.

It's great you are seeing your attorney this afternoon. You're fighting for your family and that's an important step. As you remarked already, seeing your wife as an actual alien and beginning to work on this is infinitely better than letting life shove you around.

Hang tough, pardner.

I have no temper for her, I am very calm around stressful situations.

I have been checking her phone and she is not going anywhere near where she needs to be to see him.

She actually went over to her mom's for a bit after work, she could still be there.

Then she has to go to work at gymnastics at 3:30 and its now 2:00 so another day of opportunity that she had that she didn't take.... but I am still suspcious that her cell conversations dropped of so sudden with him.... but she is still using the nextel for other phone calls.....

I almost think she doesn't have a affair phone, because she has stated so confidenly that we are separated and she can date and see who she wants because we are "separated"... but we haven't legally separated but I know that doesn't matter.

How about some digital recorders hidden (very well hidden, I should say) somewhere near the land-line phones? Also, any chance of visitors during those periods you aren't at home? What does she do at gymnastics? Ask these questions of yourself, Viking. Remember, this is an alien and aliens lie.

Here's a link you may find interesting on methods in conducting a good intelligence operation:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rt=all&vc=1


It may give you some ideas.

So I saw the lawyer today...

I told him that I don't want to talk about separation or divorce anymore with him... I initially setup the appt to talk about separation paperwork, if the W wants it she can get it done. I am not going to talk or act like a divorcee. I am in this for the survival of my marriage.

So he is drafting up a bluent hardnose legal letter to the OM. It will state that if he doesn't immediately stop all contact with my W and family via any means that I will take him to court under the alienation of affection laws in north carolina.

He is also going to put into the letter some details that I have learned about him that will scare him. I know his out of state employer, the one that he makes most of his money with while he is doing construction/handyman work her. We will also mention that we will contact the IRS about other employers and taking his tax return. I believe he doesn't file taxes all his income is cash or under the table.... so having the IRS looking into him should scare him.

So the lawyer will have a draft to me tomorrow.

I thinking that I will go down to the sheriff office and have them deliver the document to the OM, similiar to being served court paper's... best 25$ I could spend.

The next thing I am going to do with the lawyer is have him draft a letter up to the W, explaining our next actions.

Custody
Moving me back into the house
No alimony

This will be part of my kick off of Plan B.....

Having this come from the lawyer rather than me writing a little note saying please play nice, will through her thru the floor.

So I was able to place the second nextel in her car tonight, it might be a bit tricky since she cleaned out the back for groceries the other day but I don't think I need it in there longer that a week before I know where this is going.


So I was home with the girls tonight, went fishing, was awesome usually my oldest catch's all the fish but tonight all 3 of them caught fish's and they were SO happy it was great... at times like that I like to take a picture with my camera and just send it to the W, Makes her think of what I am doing and what she is mising... hopefully that isn't a LB

So I made her some pizza for dinner, similiar to the dinner I made last night.

This night she was a bit nicer, she even said good night to me.

I am preparing to expose to a friend of her that she has always had a crush on, he also has flirted with her of the years, I am going to bring up that and the fact that this time she is straying and not me

quick note the second nextel in the card is reporting its GPS position rather than a trangleization of cell towers... what does this mean, I will know the accuracy of the vehicle within 30 feet rather than 1-2 miles

You're doing good work, Viking. I don't understand how it's going to work on the letter to your wife to get her out of the house, gain custody, etc. I was under the impression you had to do that as part of a separation/divorce petition, but that's what you have an attorney for.

For corporate memory, please keep us updated on that alienation of affection letter, as well as what your attorney tells you about the statute, how it works, etc. It's very interesting.

I like the IRS thing. That was your attorney's idea? I'm beginning to see this twerp is going to be running for the hills REAL soon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Keep up the exposure. I don't know how it'll work with someone in the flirter's category, but every bit of pressure will help.

30 feet on the Nextel is accurate enough for your purposes. The lastest GPS trackers can narrow it down to a few feet but this is fine. You've bought the latest city map, right? How does this work? You have a website you go to in order to track the other phone, or can you access the data from your cell?

No, taking a picture and showing her what she's missing isn't a LB. It's part of Plan A...making yourself and the family a more attractive place.

So nextel will provides you a street level map of the location of the phone... then I use google earth (free) to get a visual on the location.

The IRS thing was my idea <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The great thing about the alienation of affection statute is its not about adultry its about breaking up a marriage and it can apply to anyone, I could file a suit against my inlaws in I wanted to for breaking up my marriage, if they had suggested it to their daughter.

So I am going to take a breather from exposure and see how carrot side of plan A goes.

One thing I see this separation is doing for us its breaking each of us of our codepedences, me dependent on her emotional support and her on my financial support. She opened her own bank account and is managing her own money which she said she always wanted to do but never did always leaving it up to me.

Here is the context of my lawyer's letter to the OM....

Dear <OM>:

I have been retained by <BS> regarding a civil action against you for Alienation of Affections and/or Criminal Conversation. <BS> is married to <WW>, and there is abundant evidence to support a Civil Summons and Complaint against you for Alienation of Affections and/or Criminal Conversation. In my opinion, your relationship with my client’s wife is exposing you to considerable civil liability. I am satisfied that I can prove to a Jury that you have knowingly sought a relationship with my client’s wife even to the point of proposing marriage to her. If your conduct continues, I intend to file a Civil Summons and Complaint in the <local county> Civil Superior Court seeking both compensatory and punitive damages. If successful in obtaining a Judgment for compensatory and/or punitive damages, I intend to seek to collect on the Judgment in any lawful manner.

I would urge you to seek legal advice immediately regarding your continued relationship with <WW>. If you should need to speak to me, you can contact me at your convenience.

====

So he is going to send this out to the OM in the next couple of days.

Her nextel has been off all day..... but the second one in her car is receiving fine <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

They had lunch today, a co-worker drove me over there we waited for her and him to leave, I video taped. It all look so innocent. She dropped him off back and his work site and then she we

Mmmmmmmmmmmm. I love it!

Boy wouldn't it be great if your attorney got that out today? It would arrive just in time for the weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're doing a great job at this sleuthing thing, Viking. Someday, you should do a thread recounting your experiences. If you catch a loving embrace (Yek!) or a kiss in that or a future video, your attorney is going to have an easy time representing you before a family court judge.

Your post was cut off, btw. What happened after she dropped him off?

Kudos, pardner. You've got things well in hand now.

Well after she dropped him off me and my driver <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> went by his place of work, its a old building that is be gutted and redone, he is in construction. So I got his license plate number for my records.

There was no embrace, there was no kiss, it was very friendly, they walked out of the restraunt they weren't close or clingy like someone dating or hot for each other.

She did give the parking lot a good scan, I think she was looking for my vehicle but we didn't take my vehicle.

So I am not going to focus on the OM but on me and my wife.

I know she is going to be upset when the letter gets delivered and she is going to go back not talking to me and being mad... she started talking to me more... a few more sentences her and there.

She asked to go shopping this weekend for some summer close and I suggested she get the kids and her some shorts and other things..... I am rethinking this and I am going to tell her that I will take the girls shopping myself and have them try on and get some cloths for themselves, and she can just get her cloths on her own..... starting down the path that it is going to me and the girls.

I am wondering if I should have my lawyer draft up a second letter to my W.... stating that he has been retained as my attorney, that I am interested in saving the marriage but that I have retained him to protect the family and our assest..... and have this letter sent to her about the same time as his letter.

I really think she needs a dose of reality.

If we aren't talking how do I communicate to her that I wan our marriage to survive and grow.

Do I write her a letter, leave her notes on her car, text message a little note.

Then I have the issue of the OM

Do it one step at a time, Viking, just like you're doing it.

The first thing you have to do is get the OM kicked out of the picture and I suspect he will be gone in a couple of days. He can't afford to fight a legal battle he's going to lose and he knows it. He'll run like a possum with the hounds chasing. That will do two things. First, it breaks up the affair FAST. Second, she sees him in an unflattering light and that forces a crack to develop in her fantasy world.

Her temper is going to ignite when she finds out what happened...if she finds out. OM may just take off in his truck and not come back. If he gets in contact with her, she's not going to be happy. You interfered in her fantasy relationship.

You’ll need to be ready with assurances (which she won’t accept) that you did it because you love her and you did what you had to do to get that third person out of the marriage that is for only you and her. Hit that from as many angles as you can think of. Remember Pepperband’s “Carrot And Stick” of Plan A? Respectfully let her know you’re doing all this so you and she can build a better marriage than it was before. Every time she starts in on how bad it was before (remember she's rewritten history in her mind), you return the same mantra. You love her and you want to be married to her for the rest of your life. You can agree the marriage had its problems before. You don’t want to go back to the same marriage you had either. Tell her you want to work with her to make it better than it’s ever been.

As far as letters, notes, etc., I think you’ll be better off if you tend more toward respect than loving strokes and tender phrases. She’s not ready for love letters, notes, or warm text messages yet and won’t be for some time. Baby steps. Work on improving the communication in routine matters before trying affectionate messages.

So tonight....

I fished with the girls, did a couple loads of laundry both the kids and her's. I vaccumed two rooms and did the dish's all in about an two hours....

So when she gets home, remember we are separated, she told the girls that they were going to gymnastics camp with her this summer.... now we had discussed that we wouldn't talk about things we were going to do with the girls until we talked to each other - since she wants to be separated and divorced.

I got a little upset and told her that I thought didn't know if I wanted the girls going to that summer camp the whole time, that maybe I would like to do stuff with them.

She got a pissy look on her face and sat down to eat the dinner I fixed her....

I wanted to talk to her about this issue with doing things with the girls, I asked my daughters to go to bed and leave the room my oldest just sat there saying I am old enough to listen, I then asked her again to go so W and I could talk, she gave me some more attitude and instead of starting something with my W and her (wife just sat their didn't correct her daughter bad attitude) I said okay I will leave and talk to you guys tomorrow...

daughter called a few minutes later while I was in the car to apologize - at least her mom got her to do that. I told her I was dissapointed that she was disrespectable but still loved her.

Then about 10 minutes later her mom called and wanted to know what my beef was, I told her that we are co-parents and we need respect each other and not make decision about the girls before talking to the other....

I then injected that I am all about working on the things I broke in the marriage and want the marriage to work, she then said what marriage - I said I know its pretty bad but I want to make it better, better than it ever was.

before the separation I wouldn't have had any problem... but now its one of those selfish things I am tired of.

So we talked for about 20 minutes about the girls and what were going to do next year about school, I said it really depends on where I am staying... she is in fantasy land and doesn't think about her own needs and wants... So I asked her how her gas in her big SUV was doing and hoping that she wasn't being wasteful..... it was a setup on my part.

She gave well all I do is go from preschool to home, to school to get the girls and back, I said oh really well I wish you could be honest with me, she said what did that mean. I so wanted to tell her that I knew about her lunch date this week and last, and that it probably used a 1/4 tank of gas for her to go out on meet the OM at his work site.

but I didn't, I told her I wish she could be honest with me and that I need to go, that really through her back. because I didn't reveal why I thought she was being dishonest.

Was that okay or was that being mean?

The letter from the lawyer goes out certified mail tomorrow

I'm sorry she's getting the idea she can make plans that don't have to be run by you. Aliens have quite an ego and don't recognize there are other beings in the universe. I'll bet she has no knowledge of NC divorce laws and is assuming she'll soon have access to most of your salary as spousal support. She'll has a rude awakening coming to her over the next couple of weeks. That gymnastics camp idea, though it might be good for some of the time, will probably fly right out of WW's mind.

I see you offering your WW the opportunity to come clean, but you're really expecting too much. She isn't capable of telling the truth right now. (I understand you have to amuse yourself sometimes though.) Just don't let a sarcastic note come into your voice. That would be a LB.

Oh good. The letter will get to the scum on Monday then? What a way to start out the week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am almost convienced that she has an affair phone... should I confront her about it?

The OM contact completely dropped off last week and I am curious, should I just be blunt and say if you have a new phone I need to turn your old one off?

I have the strength I keep tellimg myself and you guys - or I should say longhorn - is keeping straight.

I just don't know how much longer I want to live outside of the home, to get back in I will have to be very in her face with my lawyer.... she wouldn't see it coming in a thousand years she is so in the fog and fantasy

She keeps telling me well I need time to see if I still love your will miss you.... yeah so you can have the free time call the OM and see him

Could it be she's using the land-lines in the home instead of a cell? She might have an affair phone...those disposable things from the convenience store work well for that purpose. Impossible for you to find except by accident. Ask and watch her eyes to find your answer...not that you can do anything about it.

You NEED to be back in that home. If it takes "in your face" tactics, so be it. You can't do a real good Plan A when you're only there part time, and the girls deserve a full-time father too.

All that "I need time," and the classic "I don't know if I still love you," is all fog, Viking. It's also a delaying tactic to keep you from interfering in what she has going on. Ignore it, it means nothing. Let your attorney take care of it.

Sounds like you DID get a bulldog of an attorney. Put yourself in his hands and let him focus on what he has to do while you work on the marriage. You can legitimately tell WW that you "do marriage" while he works to protect you out of sight. Things are percolating pretty good over there in North Carolina. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yeah I feel more in control... I asked her today about a second phone and she completely denied its but I think she has one.

We talked for about 30 minutes this morning I tried not to LB but she was in trying to push my button's

We told her I wanted to be the father I should have been for the girls, that i want to participate and have quality time with them rather than be their driver or sit on the sidelines...

She keeps saying how its too late and why now, but I keep saying it not just now its been for a while - when she opened up to me to months ago I took notice and started to change things, but that has been revised or glossed over.

We talked about the best thing for the girls and I said, what would you say if I thought them being with me would be the best thing.... I had to pull the phone away from my ear for about 5 minutes as she screamed at me about how she is their mother, and she has raised them, etc etc. I then reminded her all I said was what if I said not that I was going to. I did mention that I would like 50/50 custody and she doesn't like that either, she wants me to watch them when she works and every other weekend....

Attorney said that I can get custody - NC has no preference of which parent has custody as long as its the best for the children

I heard a lot of fog and a lot of babble, it hurt it really makes you feel that they believe it.

I don't know what she will do when the OM gets his letter from the lawyer.... I think I need a prepared statement for her when that happens any ideas?

So I have a question about post notification....


W will probably be irrate, and will say aweful things.

I working on my calm reassuring lines to show her I care, I understand, and that I want our marriage to work.

We are separated and she has insisted that means she can date, which I am not stopping, I am asking her for no contact with the OM.

If she refuses NC w/ OM does should I go into Plan B as I am really a whits end on how I can do more longer Plan A. The babble is deafening.

You're getting some good response on your other thread about what to expect and how to say things to your wife when the letter hits. The only thing I can add is to keep fixed in your mind the idea that you are doing what you have to do to save your marriage. You're sorry it hurts her, but it is necessary. Be calm and don't pay attention to the things she's spewing. Work on your control and be calmness itself.

BTW, you and she are NOT separated and she cannot date. She's married to you and she can't act single. Why not address that issue too and get everything out in the open? She's showing disrespect for the marriage by claiming a "right" she doesn't have.

I hope you can press the issue with your attorney and get back in the home soon. I know you've been doing what you can in Plan A, but it would be best if you could work on it with both of you home. Once there, if you possibly can, work on Plan A some more. Work on it as long as you can until going into Plan B. If you feel your love for her becoming endangered, that's the moment you go to Plan B.

She might want to move out, of course. You can't stop her, but you can stop her from taking the children with her. They deserve to have their home. Check with your attorney, but there is a writ that can be filed to make sure she doesn't leave with them.

If I were you, the second she says she's going to a lawyer, I'd drop separation papers on her simply to protect yourself and the children. If she wants to leave the house, that's fine. You can't keep her there against her will but your children deserve to not become her pawns.

How's that exposure list coming? I'm not sure I've asked this before...have you told your children what is going on? Dr. Harley has specifically stated children need to know why Mom and Dad aren't getting along. The disclosure has to be age-appropriate but they need to know. Don't let them worry that they have caused this rift between their parents. If they don't know, children have assumed that in the same circumstances.

Stay strong, Viking. The babble is deafening, but it's only the wind. There's nothing of substance to it.

Here is an update....

I am not pushing the getting into the home issue right now because I am actually at home more with the girls than ever before, i am just not sleeping there. I get to tuck them in and spend so much more time with them now. Mostly because I am trying to support my wife in her new job, if I didn't do this she wouldn't be able to do the job - that is part of my plan B is I am going to change the schedule that I can see the girls so she will have to find her own daycare... which will be her mom and that will piss her mom off.

So last night I hung out with the girls and did somethings around the house... made the wife dinner (which I was thinking was nice because she has fixed dinner for me for years) Well when she came home, she was crying in pain... her inner ear problem from last week was back and she was in extremely pain. So instead of leaving like I have been I stayed looked after the girls. She has been dowing advil and was almost out. So I offered to go and get some more for her so she could make it through the night... I told my w I would take my youngest to dairy queen so she wouldn't bother her. She has tried not to aske me for anyting since March 31, she asked for a small blizzard which I thought was nice.

I went out got her advil, filled her tank, and got ice cream for everyone. I also talked to the pharmacist and she suggested a heating pad for her ear (it was also on the direction from the ER last weekedn) So I picked on of those up as well. got home her and my youngest got into bed a told her I would be available for whatever she needed and locked the house up and left.

I am not sure what is going on today, I am probably going to have the girls with me the whole day (sweet) and she will probably be back in the ER today because of her ear... or maybe not.

The letter to the OM went out yesterday in the mail so it could be there as early as today or monday.

Exposure list is still being worked on, right now I am not sure who would be the best to expose too, she is just not talking to anyone right now

I broke down the cell bill


March she talked to the OM 2199 minutes or 36 hours worth
April She talked to the OM 1500 minutes or 25 hours worth

Now in april she was able to actually see him more in person so the accounts for less talking on the cell phone.

Now I checked and there doesn't appear to be a second cell phone so she has really dropped conversations with him off greatly... I think mostly because she has been so tired and sick since her folks moved out from our house.

So the fog is there and I think it will continue to be there
I think the fog is more that she doesn't want to work on hte marriage so the OM is just a distraction.

What does your attorney say about getting you back into the house? Does he not think that would be a good thing in a legal strategic sense? It also works in the MB principles. You have to BE there with her, spend time with her for the magic spell of her inappropriate relationship to be broken.

Supporting your wife in her new job is fine, until you begin to make that the focus of your plan. Viking, you cannot shield your wife from the consequences of her adultery. That job may turn out to be a casualty of her infidelity. That's HER problem, not yours.

You appear to think it's a coincidence she started an infidelity at the same time she began complaining about the marriage. That's nonsense. Even if it's entirely correct, it's an inappropriate, cruel, and selfish choice to commit adultery in response to perceived problems in the marriage. Solve the infidelity problem first, Viking, then deal with those perceived problems. MC can help with them. MC cannot help get rid of a third person in your marriage.

Her being tired and sick is an opportunity for you to improve her feelings about you...but don't expect it to happen. She's rewritten history so much you can't possibly make up for everything. Be very, very careful about becoming a doormat, Viking. It's easy to slip from being a supportive, contributing husband to a needy, co-dependent mess of a man. Don't slide into that morass, okay?

Be strong, Viking. Expect to be down some days, but keep your eye on the ball and don’t let it get to you too much. You’re on the right path--the one that can bring her out of this fantasy world and back to her family.

So in the past 6 months there were two other men that she "talked" so I know there is nothing specific about the timing, except she feels empowered because her folks now live here and that this specific guy is very charismatic and has been focused on her attention....

Now I think that is drawing to a close, with her being sick and working so much he hasn't been calling her.

You right I need to focus on the reason's we were having problems and show her that I am fixing them.

I am not a doormat nor will I be one but I do love doing things for her.

So she is suppose to be fixing her mom and dad dinner tomorrow but since she is on pain meds and sleeping most of the day, I am going to clean up tomorrow and make mothers day dinner for her and her folks, but be gone for the dinner, as I wasn't invited.

That may sound like a doormat but its be staying focused on the family which is a complaint of hers.

And about the strategy for getting back home?

The only thing I am not doing in the home is sleeping there, I am in the home with her and the kids MORE now than before I left, I am taking every opportunity to be there during the week and even on the weekends.... and we are talking not much but we are talking....

So I do have a plan to get back into the house, but I am not executing it until at least june 1st... when I start executing my plan B.

Viking? Where are you, pardner? Come talk to us, okay?

So monday was an interesting day... wife has a severe ear problem all weekend and on pain medication... so I took her to an ENT on monday, made the appointment got the kids to school and then took her. Drove her without saying a word, she didn't want to talk. Waited for her at the doctors office and then when she got done, offered to take her to the Olive Garden for lunch (which she likes) So we went to lunch, didn't really say a thing, got a lot of eye rolls because I kept looking at her.

She has asked last week if she could buy some summer cloths... since we said we would discuss finances with each other before spending money.... So I offered to take her to Old Navy (favorite store) and we baught some cloths. She was dissappointed in some of the selections... so I offered to take her to The GAP, second favorite store, so we go there buy some more cloths for her. I pick up a couple of things for myself - I went from a waste size of 44 to 38 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So we go to another store and buy some more cloths for her... as we are walking out of the store she makes a comments... you should go back and get the sales assistance number. I was taken aback by that but didn't LB or say a world.... but I was stewing.

I took her home with her 300$ of cloths and dropped her off didn't say much to her because she is still trying to avoid conversations with me.

after a while I had to call her and tell her how I felt... so I called her and told here....

"You hurt me with the comment about the girl at the store. The whole time we were shopping and you were picking out outfits all I could think about is who was going to see you in those, who were you going to be dating wearing these outfits. I don't it was fair for you to make a comment like that since you were standing next to me the whole time and all my attention was towards you"

She then said that felt like I was looking at her, I said well I wasn't but I thanked her for letting me know how she felt and I would like for her to tell me when I do make her uncomfortable or when she feels I did something.

So this morning as I was going to the gym and to work, she called me and said my youngest had pink eye and if I could travel 45minutes out to the house to take her to the doctor and stay with her so she could go to pre-school.

I am thinking we are separated but I am doing all the things for her that she ask.

My question is besides being a doormat, where do I draw the line.... I know they are my kids and I love them but she calls me whenever she needs something.

How do I handle this situation, I will take care of them when they are with me and she takes care of them when they are with her? She wants me to only have them every other weekend and when she works.... I would like to have them 50/50

Her selfishness and attitude is starting to wear on me, I am not LB'ing and I am doing a good Plan A right now. There has been no a less than 30 minutes of phone calls with the OM in the past 4 days.

I am waiting to see if she goes sees him again this week for lunch.

I asked my lawyer about if I am paying her car payment and she is going and driving the OM around if I could make that her payment... Also my lawyer says that I don't owe alimony since I am taking on all family debt if we do actually divorce.

----
Another update... I am sitting in mcdonald with my youngest and you wouldn't believe who walked in to use the bathroom... the OM.... OMG how I stared to shake, as my daughter and I walked to our table he walked out.... and it was very sureal we both gave that man greating "what up" I think it caught him off guard. I just watched him walk to his truck and then sat down to each breakfast with my daughter and I was shaking with so many feelings but now feel better that I am getting a chance to vent here.

I am sending my W a txt msg to to say who we saw.

Viking, doing everything you can for her has been a concern of mine. With respect, what you're doing is giving her lots of room to stay in contact with OM, but not depriving her of the comfort of having a full-time husband and father to her children. Please show me any indication she's making any adjustment in her life to accomodate sick children...or anything else. She's getting accustomed to her new, independent lifestyle with you always there as a safety net. Independent, except she doesn't have to pay for anything. She wanted you out of the house, but she wants you there for every crisis, major or minor. It's coming close to time for that posture to end. Perhaps when she finds out about the alienation of affection letter to the OM?

Part of her attitude is a by-product of Plan A because Plan A encourages fence-sitting. It's also why Plan A has a definite time limit. Plan A cannot be sustained indefinitely because it doesn't put much pressure on the adultery and break it up. Remember, Plan A exists to set up Plan B and I think you will be able to do a fantastically effective Plan B. It's going to throw a bucket of cold water in her face when she has to start dealing with all of the everyday things you have been taking care of.

What's your time limit for Plan A, Viking? The average for men is six months but it's sometimes not appropriate to go that long, particularly if your love begins to deteriorate in the light of WW's selfishness and attitude. Plans A, btw, are never perfect. I think you've been doing a fine job at it, probably better than most.

Start planning your Plan B, pardner. Your finances have to be separated and some intermediary set up for handing over the children, communication between you and your wife, etc.

I'm on pins and needles waiting for the fallout from that letter to hit the fan. It should have hit yesterday but I suppose the U.S. Mail isn't anymore effective where you are than here.

What do you envision happening in the near future with reference to Plan A ending and Plan B beginning? What is the timing and how will you determine it's time to begin Plan B?

Ironically enought Longhorn, I was already thinking about my Plan B, since I am trying to do just what you say. I trying to foster a sense of security and warmth - that has alwasy been there - but is being intensified on my part because of the separation. So here is what I am thinking for Plan B

I want to write a nice plan b letter to my wife explaining why I need to break contact and get her out of my thoughts. I also want to set boundries around contact and expectations. Like no need to talk until your ready to talk about us.

I want to have a cover letter from my lawyer to my plan B that outlines my legal intentions, ie no alimony, 50/50 custody, I wont pay for her car if she is using it for ex-martial relationships EA/PA or just friends (she told me on a couple of occasions she has chauffered OM around)
The reason for the letter from the lawyer is that it will cost me 75$ vs 700$ if I have him do up separation paperworks. So get same bang for a lot less money.

I plan on around the beginning of June to execute my Plan B. This will be right when she gets out of preschool for the summer and may want me to do more childcare for her.

She is being a real big cake eater on the fence and I am really starting to get annoyed by it and seeing more of this side of her than I want and its is breaking down my spirit to stay committed to the Plan A.

I have already made a committment to myself and god that I will not start a new relationship while my girls are still young and need me. I would rather focus on them and their happiness than worry about dating and the stuff like that. I know I could if I wanted to but I don't.

Okay, sounds good. I'll be interested to see how effective it is to have your attorney inform her of your legal intentions rather than file for a formal separation agreement. My only question is whether there's a chance it might give her a chance to hire a lawyer and get some kind of action filed to force far more support...even temporarily?

Still nothing from the alienation of affection letter? Darn!

So in talking to my lawyer - which was an eye opener - since I am taking on 100% of the martial debt and that I am giving her any proceeds from the house and personal property if we sell the house and that I am paying all the bills while she lives in the house and I have to maintain a separate household. legally she has no ground to stand on. She is in a big house with lights and air conditioner and tv and telephones and I am renting a room froma friend where I don't even have enough room to have my kids come over and sleep over....

Legally I am sitting pretty - my lawyer said that if she hires a lawyer he is going to tell her to take any deal we offer and run with it since in the short term is looks very sweet for her. Now 3 or 4 years out from now, my debt would be gone and I would have a whole lot of income to go and get whatever I wanted for the girls. She on the other hand would probably still be staying with her parents.... Lawyer says North Carolina looks at the earning potential of each spouse not just how much they make, so I could insure I wouldn't have a adjust alimony down the road if she does get off her a#@ and get a better job.

I will not file separation paperwork - I am pro marriage - that will be my wifes decision and action. However I am confident that I can protect myself in any legal matter since I have retained a lawyer and briefed him fully on our situation, so I know where she can come from if she attacks.

Like they say the only winner in a separation/divorce that involves lawyer's are the lawyers...

I am also documenting with the help of my lawyer all my positives in the marriage, like how I have spent more time with the kids than the wife, what I do for church, that I am the only one that takes the kids to church... etc. So if we get down to a custody battle I will look like a good solid parent with a plan.

viking, why can't you get back into your house? I thought that was the goal here? Having you there will make it much more difficult for her to carry on her affair. Without you there, she has it MADE! She has you paying her bills and, in effect, financing her affair.

I don't think you should go into Plan B, you should go home so you can put some pressure on the affair! Her set up now only FACILITATES her affair, at your expense.

You sound good to go, Viking. Kudos!

I would have to go to court to get back into the house - per my lawyer and I am actually spending more time with the kids and at the house than ever before......


SO the LETTER was DELIVERED TODAY and a copy was sent to my house - so my wife saw it and called me on it tonight.
It started innocent enough and then she really started to get angry at me... why did I have to bring a innocent man into this. he didn't do anything wrong.... then she started saying she has never loved me, I never showed effection, all I wanted her for was sex. I have always been about ME and stuff like that

I kept my cool for most of it only going down a few rat holes about why I brought the OM into the fray, I said any man willing to get involved with a married woman, no matter what the state of the marriage is in should be dealt with.

I can tell my her cell phone record that she has stopped stopped calling him and the only contact they have had in the past two weeks was lunch last thursday.

So she kept repeating herself that its over and its over and its over. I kept saying that is your decision but I am going to be here for you and I am committed to our marriage and that all I want is to make something that we didn't have before. I agreed with her that I did it all wrong and all I can do now is improve myself and try to be the best husband possible for her and the girls.

She finally had to call it quites because she couldn't get me to get angry or engage her in the babble.

So she is so animate about getting rid of me and divorcing me and starting her new life why is she still living in the house, using our bank account and living this way.... I think its classic fence sitting and cake eating.


So my question is this, if the OM is out of the picture, there will be obvious withdrawl but to the bigger problem of my wifes fence sitting and cake eating, what can I do to jar her off the fence and spit out the cake???

Should I get hard on her, take her bank card?

Should I have the lawyer send her a letter saying that she needs to contact him about any separation work, as I am not going to deal with her on that??

I know the OM is not gone just far out of the picture right now, so how do I get her back?

Does Plan b come into play eventually??

Financially we can do the separation thing too long or we will be filing for bankruptcy.... I can do this another month before her actions strain us to a point where we can't recover, financially

That nonsense about you involving an "innocent man" is babble and I'm sure you recognized it as such. No man who has a relationship with a married woman is innocent.

How's your Plan B operational plan coming?

So this morning I talked to my wife again, she is acting like the classis fence sitter, cake eater, waywars spouse. I don't know if it gives me hope or what but since reading all the post from MB about how spouses oscilate and how they revise history and how they try and justify their actions by pointing to us as the reason for all their pain and hurt.

I think I did a fairly good job about babbling back at her, I remained very calm and I kept the conversation positive as she tried to keep it negative.

I have to believe if she truely wanted it over and truly didn't care she would be making such an effort to convince me and herself that what she is doing is right.

She continues to say that there was never in our 11 year marriage any us or any connection or anything worth trying to keep going.... I pointed out that there were several oasis in our marriage that we could hold onto as a foundation. I also told her that there was a lot of positive times, there were a lot of neutral times and then there were the negative time. All in all I would say 30% or our marriage was positive, 30$ was neutral and 40% was negative. So 60% of our 11 years wasn't bad. And the negative was so much because neither of us were able to identify and work on the issue we just put our head in the sand and moved on, never resolving anything.

Well that is stopping now with me, if I have a problem with how she is treating me I let her know how it makes me feel. Funny thing is everytime I do that, she tells me how I am making her feel and I think we are actually understanding each other when we do that... to sad that it took the break up of our marriage to realize that.

Fence sitting and cake eating is a favorite tactic of wayward spouses when you're doing Plan A, Viking, as is rewriting history to suit their new alien view of the world. It goes away, but not until they've completed withdrawal.

How're things going this morning?

Wow what does a day make.....

So yesterday morning I was fighting the babble for the letter being delivered and all the revision.

Yesterday afternoon, my father who is a truck driver came through town and took my daughters and myself out to dinner. My wife stopped by and said hi and was very pleasent and smiled.

Had a great time with dad and then went home with the kids...

When my wife got home I had dinner fixed... this was about 8:20 - we started talking about changing the kids school. I didn't talk about us or anything about our relationship but we talked about the benefits of moving the kids and SHE was talking like it would be us doing this and us doing that and it was very pleasant and we talked really well together.... So I left at 10pm last night after talking to her and didn't have LB once and she wasn't negative or anything

We have MC today and I am going to see how that goes

Curious. Viking, enjoy her new attitude while it lasts, but I think you have to be suspicious. She didn't become an alien overnight, and a sudden turnaround back to a reasoning human being has to be viewed with more than a grain of salt. I’d love for this to be the result of an epiphany, but if it was, it should be accompanied by a lot more emotion and a rehashing of things she thought, felt, etc.

What are the chances she's checking into hiring her own attorney and doesn't want you to know just yet? That would be something an alien would do. Be careful, okay?

Oh I am not getting my hopes up, I am still being very cautious.

So I am confident that contact with the OM has not occured in at least a week, I am also confident that the letter to the OM will have the desired effects.

I have talked about this scenario with my lawyer, and I feel well protected by my actions, if I follow through with what I have already promised her - if she decides to file for separation that I will be well served.

Legally I am not in jeopardy of any restraining order's or legal attacks against me.

I think the biggest thing is the change in my attitude. I tell her I am focused on our marriage and the family, I am not LB, I am not R talking. I am being there for the family. I am showing her not telling her that I want to be a friend and husband.

I know that oscilation is possible and will probably occur but if I am steady in my actions and don't follow her back into the fog, I beleive then she will start staying on this side of the fence.

So my wife has a gymnastics show this Friday Saturday and Sunday... So I am taking the girls to our local horse show Saturday and Sunday - big bonus for me as I am helping my girls and showing my W that I am wanting to deeply dive into their activities. But I also asked her if Friday night I could bring the girls by her gymnastics show and watch her class perform... She said sure... this is meeting a huge EN for her.

A few years ago she was doing cheerleading coaching and I would come home from work and watch the girls while she was at games or practice, but I never went to a game to show her support for her coaching - thought I was being supportive by being their for the girls and allowing her time to follow her coaching dream.....

So now I am going to be there to show her support as a gymnastics coach. I have always thought she was a great person and did great things but my showing her was always by taking care of the girls or doing other normal daddy duties not focusing on showing her I cared for her and her self worth.

Good enough. If you're covering yourself, you are free to continue what I think is a very good Plan A. Your Plan B is likely to be super effective.

So we went to marriage counciling this afternoon and she was mixed but more to the positive. She still gets irriated with what and how I say things but she was more responsive to the C's questions about what she would like to see from me.

The MC asked her if hypothetically she would go away with me for a long weekend without the kids and she said she would and that is something I can look forward too.

Besides that we the MC brought up languages of love and she asked me what I thought my W language was and I said is that I have always to offer service language doing things and providing things, but I then said now after listening to my W I would think its quality time and closeness and conversation. The MC gave me thumbs up on that because a lot of H don't ever see where they communicated one way but then realized that their W's were listening another

Next she asked my wife what language she thought I needed to hear and she said she didn't know and didn't think she could answer.... still says she or i don't know each other and their is no foundation for our marriage and the MC said that does sound to be true but you have an opportunity to build one now and I would agree.

Mixed signals indeed, but you can't expect her to turn around completely in one day. Baby steps, right?

Regarding the long weekend...have you seen that part in SAA where Dr. Harley recommends an extended trip away somewhere the couple can concentrate on each other? Could be you and the MC are on the same page.

Yeah it was interesting I was wondering if my MC was even pro-marriage... but I see that she was waiting for my wife to show signs - just like me.

I am not sure what the timeline is for this magical trip is it something in the next month or is it something in the next 3 months.... I know my W wouldn't do it for a while, still pretty chilly but warming...

I am into baby steps

Just a thought. MB sponsors weekend retreats every so often. Information on those events is available from links at the top of this page. Might your wife agree to go to one of these?

she could... I am trying to keep our expense down so I am going to see what I can do...

I just went out and bought tickets for her and I to a concert in june that she would probably really like and I am going to get tickets this weekend for a concert in August that she would really really like and see about taking her to those.

Also I am going to be more avaiable to her, in the past I would her time around work. I am not committed to balance work around her and the family needs.

Stay with it, pardner. You're doing great. I think patience is the key now. Things need time to percolate in her mind.

Any word on OM’s reaction to the letter from your attorney, btw? It’s curious your wife was pissed off for one day and then let it pass. I would stay vigilant. She can’t be allowed further contact with the OM if withdrawal is to start. (Are you watching her odometer to see if she’s still taking a side trip on her way…how did she put it…to and from the school?)

Yeah I need ot stay focused... I am getting warn down by being available for her all the time and doing things for the her and the girls then having to drive an hour back to where I am staying.

She found the second phone in her car, but has it brought it up to me.

She's very distant and I know I nee dto be patient but its hard not knowing what is going on.

I just know how to break her of the fence sitting, if he has everything just doesn't have me what motivation does she have

How do I explain my feelings to some one that says they don't want you part of their world.

Viking, there are never any guarantees in this life, but you are doing the things that have the best chance of success. It’s not fun extending yourself in this fashion and it can’t be drawn out indefinitely. Frankly, it seems to me you're getting near the natural end of your Plan A and should start getting ready for Plan B. I don’t recall how long you consider yourself to have been in Plan A, but I get the impression it’s been a lengthy period. There is a point of diminishing returns, and I see you getting close to that point. You may not be quite there yet, but it’s coming.

Dr. Harley has said Plan A brings a wayward spouse back to the family only about 15% of the time. The other 85% of the cases require a Plan B. I think your Plan A has set up a great Plan B. Implementation of Plan B will most definitely break the fence sitting and force your wayward wife to make some hard decisions. In short, I think it's time to start detailed planning for Plan B.

Its been a long weekend I have been running ragged with the girls at our counties 4H horse show. Its been great - the girls have done an awesome job - I think part of that is the change in my behavior towards them and how I treat and talk to them..... My W has had gymnanstics all weekend so she only spent a few hours today (sunday) at the horse show...

I talked to one of her friends that is in her 4H circle - who is a BS and who has had a rough time of it, and she didn't even know we were seperated for the past 2 months.... why would my W leave that important detail out.... She was okay to me today at the horse thing we chatted a bit - she even made some comment about how she could save her payroll money so we could buy a horse trailer... now if she was planning on living apart and separate how could she even think she could afford that...

Even her closes friends don't know any detail around why we separated and they all have said that no matter what I have done I provide very well to her and my family...

So what the ****** is she thinking? How do I break throug?

I bought some tickets for the June 6th to one of her favorite singer's and I told her about it and that I would like to take her, she said she really wouldn't like to go with me. i said what if they were a gift, oh then she would take one of her girlfriends...... I just don't know

As you have read I am out of the house and it would take court action and probable custody hearing for me to get into the house and keep my daughter's.... I talked to my oldest last night and she verified for me that her mom only provides basic stuff to them, dinner was mostly microwave dinners, laundry was what is need for tomorrow, house work was non-existance. We have a big house I am her 3 hours a day for 4 days a week and the house is actually clean and laundry is getting done plus I work 50 hours a week?????

Am I missing something her?

Everyday that Iam here I have to leave my house and children and drive about an hour to where I am staying so I leave at 9pm I get home at 10pm, guess what I have my own laundry and chores to do there, not much but its still a drain.... then I get up at 5:30 so I can get to the gym and get to work early so I can leave early to be with the girls so she can go to her gymnastics.......

I am builing up resentment and anger and feelings that I just don't want to have.... my LB is dropping and I don't know how to stop it.

My only course of action is to take action?

How can I explain to her that she needs to take me back or get out of the house?

I am so tired.... I just want my family

The short answer is simply that you can't give her that ultimatum. BTW, she's not "taking you back," she's coming back to you. Look, you can't make her do anything she doesn't want to do. What you can do is set your boundary for how you want to live your life and let her do what she will. Viking, if she doesn't have to make any choices, she won't make any. She's in the process of living a single life except she has a man around to do almost everything in her life for her.

Tell her you're moving home and that you're going to take the legal steps to do it, if that's what it takes. If she wants to leave, she can, but the kids stay. It has the same effect, but it's done from a different plane.

So I talked to her this morning and I was direct but I tried not to LB. She was going to go over to our daughter's 4H leaders house who is her horse trainer as well, I told her that she needs to tell her after this session our daughter wont be able to take lesson's for a while. I then told her that I was needing to cancel the pool membership, which then offered to pay for.

I then mentioned how I don't think we can start our daughters off in private schooling this year, because we don't have the downpayment for tuition. We use my Sept bonus to pay for school.... So I don't know what we will do I said to her that we might have to put them in public school for a month... she didn't like that.

I asked her if she would be willing to stay at her mother's with full access to the house and kids (I would leave if she wanted to come over) so that we didn't have the cost of two households.... she flatly said NO.

I know your right LH, she is living the good life..... What really started me off today was that she knows for the summer that she will only be working less than 12 hours a week for her job... that she plans on going to the pool everyday with the girls this summer and that is why I can't cancel the pool.

So I am living on a meer 600 a month - so she is getting 8000 from me now, because I am paying everything.

I need to get the legal system involved to move home and keep the kids with me at the house, but that is what I am preparing to do.

So I went out to my house today (I am living apart from my family) and my W re-confirmed that she wanted a divorce and that she pretty much hated me. So I pretty much laid it out for her that I have retained a lawyer and that I would be seeking custody and the house. I also explained that my lawyer says I have a pretty good chance of getting it.

This through my W into a tizzy and she said said how much she hated me and how I never ever respected her or felt anything towards her and how evil I am.... she said all this in front of our 8 and 11 year old -and she said it in graphic detail... but I can't blame her I was LB pretty bad myself.....

So she ask me to leave and I do - could have had the sheriff come out and ask me

So 20 minutes later she calls me and goes through the whole thing again how I am evil and sick in the head and how I am trying to manipulate everyone and I am talking about her behind her back - which is true that I was telling people we separated - so I was exposing our separation a fact that she did not let to many people know about.

So after letting me have it again and I trying not to LB and turn the babble back around. She made a bold statement that I don't know how to react too....

She basically said that she doesn't want to draw the kids into a battle or take thinga away from them because of separation and divorce so she offered to me that I could move back into house into the apartment and we would live together for the girls and would be civil for the girls but would not have relationships or SF or any personal contact.... now this sounds like a dream offer,

She eluded to the fact that I could date... which I flatly refused. I said if we are going to do this we aren't going to date or do anything else unmoral, especially if we are doing it for the girls and we are going to bring them up morally.

So what do you think?

What should I do?
What should I do next?

Move back ASAP. Say you will play it by hear.

Your game plan. You need to stay at your house long enough such that WW cannot kick you out legally again. Moving back is like a dream come true, from a legal standpoint. Suck up your pride and position yourself the best way you can legally by going back home. You should move back NOW before she changes her mind.

Second, you will be able to Plan A her better while in the house. Thus, this is a great opportunity to show your wife what a M with you could be like.

Don't worry about her fog speaks for now. Just get back home.

Your wife got scared by what you said. Don't back down on those words, and press your advantage while you can.

Viking, if you read Surviving An Affair, you'll recall Dr. Harley writing wayward spouses invariably begin to bargain when they're backed into a corner, even when they have nothing to bargain with. Your wife is in a place where she has absolutely no bargaining position but she's going to try it anyway.

No. No conditions. She doesn't get to play single while being married and reaping more than her fair share of the benefits. Pull the trigger on the legal action to get back in the home and let her know more things will have to be trimmed from the budget because she's requiring you to go that route. Suggest to her she needs to work many more hours in her "dream job" instead of fewer. You've got a lot of trumps to play in this game, Viking. Call her bluff. She's got nothing but throwaway cards and you have all the face cards. Play them.

She's rewritten history and is beginning to spew her version of your marriage at the drop of a hat. That's fine, you can't change her mind overnight, but she's not allowed to disrespect you any more than you disrespect her, particularly in front of the children. When she starts that crap, walk away and remind her when you can she is not entitled to use the children as pawns. Have you read Pepperband's "Carrot and Stick of Plan A?" Perhaps this is a good time to review it.

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

Pardner, I'd make sure your children know what is going on now if you haven't exposed to them before. They are terribly vulnerable right now and can be hurt very badly. Read what Jennifer Harley Chalmers wrote about the lessons children learn when they don't know what is happening to their world.

Infidelity: The Lessons Children Learn

Use your trump cards for every ploy she tries, Viking. You've got a winning hand if you play it out. Like the guy says in the commercial..."Just do it."

okay thanks....

What I want to do before I got back in is set some boundaries for her and I.

Like the following

No lies
Honesty
No dating


I don't want to make unrealistic request but if you can think of anything that would help me I would appreciate it

I went and saw her after her work tonight... we went an talked for two hours. Mostly about our past, how aweful I made her feel and how I destroyed her life.. I owned up to my share of the problems and how my adultery years ago caused her so much pain.

So her offer was that we would live together until our youngest daughter graduates.. that is 12 years. I can't imagine how anyone could live with another person that they say they hate for that long.

I did ask that we set boundries of honesty, no lies, and no dating. She waffeled on the dating thing and finally I dropped it as a requirement.

She asked that if the kids were out of the house we would have no contact with each other.

I am taking my victories where I can...


So I finally exposed to a friend of her's that she has fancied for before our marriage and I let him know what was going on... here is what he said, think its interesting......

Hi <VK>. I'm sorry to hear of the unfortunate events surrounding your marriage. I hope things work out for the best. Jennifer did contact me and seems to be in an emotionally fragile state.

At first my conversations with <WIFE> were the norm...excited to talk to an old friend and share a few stories. <WIFE> and I (when in touch) have great (amusing) conversations and have often served as mutual confidants. However, over the last couple of weeks she seems to have been quite assertvie and persistent in calling and/or emailing. I have been on vacation for the last two weeks and upon returing home this morning I checked my voice mail and had a few from <WIFE>. I didn't realize the potential danger of our "friendly" conversations until this morning. My voiced concern has obviously been misconstrued.

<WIFE> is hurting, and it seems to me that she may be looking for a male figure, whom she admires and respects, to shield her from the pain she is trying to bury. As long as she doesn't have to confront the issue...then it doesn't exist. I am certain you understand the psychological impact of the emotional rollercoaster she's riding.

<VK>, the last thing I want to do is to interfere with the sanctity of your marriage and family. I wish the best for you, <WIFE> and the girls. I am certain with effort and a true desire, you can get through this. You know, <WIFE> and I spoke years ago about some issues you guys were having and I advised her that you both needed to communicate and internalize your collective thoughts and feelings. There is no place for ego within the home. The home is a place of love and trust. My wish is that you and <WIFE> are able to pick up the pieces and find some common ground to begin rebuilding your home.

I don't know that you and I need to have an intimate conversation about the issues currently surrounding your marriage, but if you'll indulge me, I will extend some advice:

-See a counselor (if you aren't already)
-Identify your weaknesses as well as Jen's
-Identify your strengths as well as Jen's
-ID and nix the ego and allow Jen to do the same so that you can communicate...truly listen and internalize all that is spoken and gestured. You have everything to lose!
-SHOW your love by establishing a proactive neverending chain of love..think about it.
(a touch, a look, a call, a note, a glass of OJ in the morning, etc...little things go a long way)

<VK>, you're in for a long hard ride, BUT remember the ultimate goal--a healthy lasting marriage, one from which your daughters can learn and hopefully find for themselves one day.

I wish you the best!

Respectfully,

<friend>
=========================================

He has been divorced twice so he knows the impact of Marriage failures.

I don't know if I should ask him to contact my wife and have him express the same or just leave it alone.

You gave in on letting her date other men?

Longhorns comments should have been prefaced by 3 letters - WTF.

What are you thinking here? If this is a victory, what does defeat look like to you? Your wife can date other men???? Huh.

Sorry no this is a guy that has been a friend of her's since before our marriage, for the past month she has bene trying to contact him... he thought it was just to reignite their friendship but as you can see he sees it as more. He would never come in between our marriage.

So I exposed to him that depth of our marriage problem and he gave me this advice...

I just wonder if I have him contact my W and tell her to work on our marriage... she would listen to him.

Um. No. the above is what Longhorn and I were commenting on.

No I didn't let in I just stopped talking about it. I think its a play on making it difficult for me to come back home. I told her that I thought she was being very gracious in letting come home knowing that she is talking about being with me for so long.....

So I get a chance to do a great plan A now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's all down the tubes if she gets it into her mind you've approved her dating though, Viking. Be careful. Carrot and stick, remember?

I respectfully disagree with LH and BK here. The first order of business is to get home, and then negotiate later with WW. It would have been different if you were the one at the house and WW was the one coming home. Then you would have more leverage to negotiate with.

For now, get home and just never agree with WW that it’s ok for her to date other men. You just don’t push the issue until you are settled in the home. And when you are definitely legally settled in the home, if WW refuses NC with other men, you drop the legal nukes that you threatened her earlier with. I hope you did not intend to put the nukes away just because you are now about to be back in your home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

So play it cool for now and get in your house and over time you do what you have to do. But first thing first.

Why does one EVER negotiate with a wayward spouse?

So here is a question... the guy that is her friend that didn't realize that she was all hot for him and that sent me the letter about sticking with my marriage and doing the right thing... do I have him call my wife and tell her to try and work on our marriage... without him telling her we talked?

She respects him and it would be a huge positive to have him tell her to work on our marriage

I don't know Viking. You just broke up a budding EA and probable PA between that man and your wife. At least I hope you did. I don't know the guy but I saw nothing in his letter that said he would never see or talk to your wife again, and that's what needs to happen.

Your wife's "respect" for him is evidently rooted in an inappropriate, sexually/romantically based desire for him, as witnessed by your statement, "she fancied him (since) before" you and your wife were married. You also judged her to be "hot for him" in reference to the emails and phone calls. I'm beginning to wonder about your wife, Viking. Are there any other men in the same category as this "friend?" Are there any other indications she has an attitude she can have male friends she also wants to explore deeper relationships with? How long has this attitude been a part of your marriage?

My instinct is to suggest instead that you ask him to never have any contact of any kind with your wife ever again, and then "confront" your wife with the knowledge you now know why the relationship with her last OM seemed to have been dying.

Other than this "respect" she has for him, are there any other reasons you feel your wife would pay attention to him? I see danger here, and evidence your wife is considering another self-indulgent time out from her marriage.

(BTW, I've seen references to a name in your last few posts. To preserve your anonymity, you might consider editing your posts to remove that name.)

no this is a different guy...

Guy 1 - Looser was a player, local to us wife has NC
he is the one she talked to and was have the EA with

Guy 2 - Good Guy been W friend for years, wife got attached
and started reaching out to him for more affection
he will be calling her to tell her to focus on
marriage and that there will never be them together.

She respects guy 2 and I think will be helpful to my cause.
Guy 2 is a solid christian and believes in marriage - not matter what I have done - if I truly love her and have changed my wife should at least try and communicate with me and find out if there is something.

Yes, I know. This is at least the second man she's tried out an inappropriate relationship with. "Solid Christians" abound here on MB, Viking. There's an active thread out here right now where a pastor in a betrayed spouse's church is the wayward spouse's partner in adultery.

You've made up your mind on this. I hope it works out all right.

LH,

If one lives in the same house with a WS, of course one will have to negotiate with the WS. It could be something important, or it could not. The point is to remember that a WS is not rational and approach any negotiation, if any, accordingly. Sure there things that are non-negotiable, but others necessarily will be. Unless the BS and WS never talks or they always agree, necessarily there will be some negotiations if they live in the same house, like in all households.

In any event, my point is that the most important thing for VC to do now is to move home. The rest can follow from there.

VC,

I think it is a bad idea to ask guy #2 to contact your WW. Just tell him to stop talking to her so as not to encourage your WW in that route. But you don’t need him to convince your WW of this. Since obviously your WW already likes him, the risk of any contact with him is greater than any gain you can reap by having them talking to each other. I just think this is a very bad idea. Your WW will not change her ways overnight, unless of course she is faced with catastrophic consequences. And needless to say, this is not it.

UVA, the subject under discussion is whether a married woman gets to date men outside the marriage or not. I think you will agree with me it's entirely appropriate for a married couple to negotiate who takes out the garbage and who loads the dishwasher...even who gets up for the 2:00 AM feeding. However, don't you also agree dating--adultery--is a boundary and not available for arbitration in marriages built on MB principles? I fully understand, btw, that one does not negotiate with a WS because they are not rational, but you can lay out boundaries.

Viking, I hope you're learning something from this exchange. There are differing opinions on many things on MB and discussing them within your thread gives me/us opportunities to talk about things that are not precisely within the parameters of answering questions you pose. I hope that's okay with you.

LH I agree no dating, but their is no opportunity nor do I think she will take one anytime soon. I have stated to her that is not appropriate to date. That I will not date and that not matter what I have done in the past (infidelity) that doesn't mean its condoned or acceptabe by either party.

Like UVA said I didn't want to kill the getting back into the house deal by creating such conflict right now, wait until I get into the house - if she decided to "date" then I will be in a better position to effect that change.

Since she is still so angery at me, what steps should I take. I don't think cards are flowers are appropriate, but I was thinking of right her a letter about some of my realizations about us that at least has been good for me.

So I was talking to one of my wifes best friends - the same lady that does my oldest daughter's riding lesson's. I did get into a discussion about our sitch maybe not the best things but I am open and honest about it and don't try to pull any punch's.... One thing that I have complained about my wife in the past was that she doesn't do house work and I see that has a neglect of duties on her part... and its has gotten under my skin for years..... well my W BF said you know just because she's not a good maid doesn't make her a bad mom or a bad wife, its means she doesn't like to clean and she likes to put the kids higher in her priority list.... that started me thinking that she is right, just because I thought the house should be cleaned first that its not the most important things. Especially when my W has 3 daughters to take care. Its also my area - doing services to show love, where its not my wife. She is more about affection and making you feel good or have a good time is how she shows love and she does that a lot with the girls...

So should I send her that note saying I am sorry for making those bad assumptions all these years that she was lazy or didn't care about cleaning the house but rather that she wanted to be a more loving and caring mother than a made...

I start getting mad at myself for not seeing this sooner..

So is that a letter I would send now?

So, who does like housework? I can’t tell you how much I would love a maid coming to my home so I wouldn’t have to do it. It's something that needs to be done because hygiene and a clean home are important. That your wife doesn’t want to contribute to the upkeep of the home DOES impact on how good a mother and wife she is. Their health depends on a home free from mold, mildew, dirt, disorder, etc. She wants to do the fun things with her girls, but not the hard things. Personally, I don’t think she deserves a note apologizing for not having understood that before.

I didn't say she didn't ever do housework it was never a priority and I see that it was my priority but not hers - I am just trying to understand my wife better....

So your going to flame me again on this but....
She called me up and asked me point blank if I had talked to guy #2 the good christian that doesn't want to come between our marriage..... well I thought about lie or denying it but i promised her that I would be open and honest and not lie.

So I told her that we had exchanged emails, she asked that I read her the email.... now at this point I should have said you need to call guy 2 and talk to him - or that is what I think.

So I go ahead an read the 4 emails in our exchange - I did so because it was one of the better exchanges I have had, I also did so because the guy 2 tells it like it is that my w is a friend and nothing more.

She called me back a few minutes later and said I shouldn't have interferred with her friend and that she completely hates me now and doesn't want to talk to me and the compromise is not off.

Can someone just shoot me

The compromise is not off?

LH, of course I agree that a married person cannot date outside the M. The issue is when should VK rock the boat. I say after he is in the home.

However, I see that VK may be too appeasing to his WW. VK, you do not give up your intel just because your WW asks you to in the name of “being open” and “honest”. I agree with LH, you need to be stronger than that.

If your WW reneges on her offer to let you back home, you need to tell your lawyer to do what he has to do and get you back in there. If she plays hardball, so should you. I hope you are ready for that. Come to think of it, your WW may just want you back there so she can appease you from pulling out the weapons you may have against her legally. In other words, she may just be manipulating you. I don’t know. But I would be very alert as to what she does in the next few days.

Lastly, WW is mad at you because you have interfered with a potential A on her part. Next time, please don’t bend whenever WW says so.

I know what you are all saying and I just feel that I have brought so much of this on myself - I know the past is the past but that is what she is hurting from.

We talked a bit last night not alot...

We have the long weekend coming up and I am going to give her and the girls some time and space just to relaxe and have fun. When I am around its always tense.

Next week I will decide what I will do and stick with it or at least hand it over to my lawyer.

Sometimes I wonder if I am trying to sabotage myself...

Viking, don't give up just when you've done such a good Plan A to set up a Plan B. This is right where you should be. You have to go into Plan B (which will coincide with legal action to get back in the house and probably a legal separation) BEFORE you lose all love for her and energy to keep the fight going. I think you're right on time with this. Don't stop now. The girls deserve a full-time father and mother and MB is the best chance you have of giving them that.

I think your right unfortunately.... I love my wife soo much and I wish she was hearing me but the pain is deep....

Guy #2 agreed with me that my wife is lost and fragile right looking for someone or something to take the pain away and not have to deal with us....

I am sitting here thinking how I can afford life and keep things going, how can she just sit back and do nothing.

I know it would be years to recover I am just asking for a chance to show her that I love here.

VK,

If I, LH, or others seem harsh at times it is only because we are trying to keep you on the right path. LH is right. Don’t give up. A BS does not do everything perfectly. It is not a linear path. You just have to be on the right road. And you are.

We, especially LH, have your back.

God bless.

P.s. You are not in recovery yet, so keep this in mind.

I know I am not and I know I have to get into a plan B.... I can't see how else I can deal with this.

Viking, I don't see anything else either. Your wife loves thinking single and being independent...having no responsibilities. At the same time, she's demanding you meet her ENs for financial security and order in her life. It's called cake eating and it appears your WW has become very comfortable in that pattern.

I believe there is a chance her entire mindset will be turned upside down when you go into a really dark Plan B and she has to start fending for herself. Plan B is about you too. When the pain and exhaustion become too much, you must take refuge in separation or your love will surely die.

So what are the steps I need to do

Plan B letter
Execution of lights out
Legal actions

That’s a good outline to start with. Here's a thread started by the redoubtable Pepperband about preparing for Plan B. I think it can be useful to you. Also, re-read SAA about Plans B, okay?

Getting Ready For Plan B

Hang in there, Viking. Your energy level is very low. Take this weekend, as well as the next few days before the weekend comes around, to get some rest and recharge your batteries, okay?

I am not sure what is going on with my wife and I am not sure how well plan A is working....

I know that she is mad that I exposed to guy#2 but he is completely understanding and wasn't aware of the emotions my wife was putting on there friendship.

My biggest concern is finances if I don't get rid of the 2 household cost its going to ruin my families finances. She also has done nothing to look for another job and help with her finances....

I had to tell my oldest that we had to take her out of her riding lesson's and it was my decision and nothing to do with her mother... then her mom comes along and whispers in my daughters ear and says she will pay for it.. but doesn't tell me. I get that out of my daughter the next day.

I don't know what she is thinking... I keep wondering if she is playing a game with me. I mean I keep screwing up her indepences by confronting and exposing but at the same time she needs or wants me for the EN I fill.

So do I go into a full Plan B or do I present her an option to fix our finances by me moving back home and then continue with plan A.... or go to plan B and not take any compromise from her because its full of conditions of her being independent and free act single.

Here is my draft


Dearest Wife

I write this letter with a heavy heart, my soul and spirits are at their lowest points ever. Over the past year I have tried to be a better husband and fix the problems from the past. I provided you with all the material items you wanted but I didn’t provide you with a strong husband and friend. Though I have seen my error and truly want to fix it, you have lost your love for me.

I would first like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the demise of our marriage. I have made many mistakes in the past that can not be changed. What I have been able to do is recognize those errors in judgment and have learned from them so that I can take steps to ensure that they will not occur again. I was selfishly caught up in myself, and with my selfishness and foolishness I helped create a void in our marriage that helped allow you to fall out of love with me. I did not realize how much it meant to you for me to be there for you. The hand holding, the hugs and the snuggling to name a few.I also could not see through my own confusion on why I was so isolated and distant. I now clearly see many of those things I was lacking in. I just didn’t understand how important it was to us. I have made it clear to everyone that my time with my family, especially for my precious wife, is and will be my main focus. You will always come first.

I now realize that we are both scared of what will happen next, that is why you insist on time and space and I cower and back down when I try to stand for the needs of the family.

I don’t fear anymore your threats of moving on, going to another man, never coming back. As I have already lost you. I know about what you talk about I know what you have said….. I need to think about me and the girls. You can think of yourself and what direction your life must take.

As for me, I am focusing being there for our marriage and on raising our girls the best way I know how.

As a team, as a marriage, as a partnership I am willing to give it all up for the family and you. I buried ourselves in debt and tortured ourselves with things that just don’t matter. I now understand that love doesn’t need all this to exist. Love only requires each other’s honesty and respect.

Since August, I've been trying to give you hope for the marriage by learning how to be a better husband to you. To give you hope that you could return to a marriage that you wanted, and for us to build our family together, but past few months have been the most difficult time of my life. The pain and emptiness that I endure on a daily basis is almost too much to bear. My only saving grace is the memories of the love we once shared, of the all good times we have spent together, your extraordinary qualities that led me to ask you to spend your life with me and thought of us being together, someday happy again. Unfortunately, I now find those thoughts and feelings are slowly eroding away. Before I lose any more of the thoughts and feelings of what was once us, I must take some drastic steps.

wife, as you know I am still willing to do whatever it takes to correct the mistakes that we have made in the past and make our marriage together stronger and closer than we ever thought possible. With all of my heart, I would like to build a new marriage with you. One, in which we both feel loved, safe, cherished and honored. I simply can not continue my efforts to rebuild our marriage while you continue to live a single life.

Until that point, I feel I must break off all contact with you. I will avoid seeing you or talking to you or communicating with you in any way. To this end, I feel it is best that you find another place to stay, while I stay in our home and continue be the primary care provider for our children. I know how you feel about this and if need be I will take any action necessary to be there for the girls and take care of their needs. We do not need our financial situation to denigrate any more than it already has. I do not wish for your bond with the children to suffer any further and I will be as flexible as possible with visitation of the children, but I must ask that you not have contact with me during pick up and drop off times. I would also like any of the regular communications between us to be handled through a mutual friend or relative of your choice. I will continue meeting our marriage councilor and will focus on finding out your needs. If you have any emergency matters, you can always call me or email me at any time.

I hope that you understand that I am not doing this to hurt you or punish you but to protect my feelings for you. I ask that you respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You must know torturous pain and suffering I have endured because of our current situation.

I will be willing to discuss our future together as soon as you are willing to start work on our marriage and are willing to construct a plan to build a foundation for our marriage. Until that time I will continue to pray for our family and us.

In my mind I will keep the vision of seeing you walk through the door and say "hello my love" and of a happy and loving family that our needs are being met and a relationship that no others could come between. I know it can happen! What anyone other that you think about us is of no importance to me or my feelings for you. I have loved you as many different men; as a boyfriend, as husband, as a father, as a business partner, as a confidant, as a cheerleader, as a friend, as a mentor, as a student to list a few. I still love you today

I was in the process of drafting a longish response to your earlier post this morning but you've made some decisions I didn't see at first. I was going to ask if you had any energy left to do anymore Plan A, but your words in this letter give me the answer. I think it's clear you do not. A thought: if you think it worth the effort and expense, consider getting an opinion from Steve Harley on that subject.

The letter is beautiful, but I think it’s too long. Here’s the sample letter from SAA. Notice how it avoids any specifics in the apology for the writer’s acceptance of responsibility for past mistakes in the marriage. I don’t think you can get involved in going through those--this isn’t a discussion, it’s a notification. Also, have you outlined your boundaries for your wife? What are they? An agreement to not attempt to see other men...NC with the two OM's already identified...commitment to making the marriage work...what else?

Here's the letter:


I’m going to shut up and give you a chance to decide whether to contact Steve Harley or not.

I looked at pepperhands thread on this
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...0&fpart=all

and I chose to base my letter on one of those examples, I know its a little long and will look at shrinking it.

Thanks

I have energy to do Plan A more but I can't because of family finances if I continue this outside of the house we are going to be ruined.....

Now that is a question I have can I focus just on the getting into the house and keep the plan a up? I mean can I force the issue about moving back in but not cut off contact?

You most certainly can. If you feel you have that energy, continuing Plan A all the way up to the six months (or whatever your time limit is) is a good thing. Just getting back into the home is what a number of us have been recommending all along, remember?

Now, understand your wife may react to you forcing the issue with some actions of her own. I believe you should start considering what those might be and how you will deal with them.

Plan B is for when your energy fades, when your love for your wife begins to die. I thought you were at that point, but now I’m thinking you were passing through a low point. Right? Your emphatic statement that you have energy is encouraging. You tell us when you can’t do Plan A anymore, okay?

I have never lost love for my wife and I don't think I ever will. Its the resentment and the frustration of her inaction either way that is bogging me down. I am a decisive person if I thougth I needed to breakaway from here it would take me about two days to decide that after deliberation. We are going on 2 months and she is at status quo - no change in her action or attitude, she says divorce but her actions say fencing sitting and cake eating..

I have been in contact with a friend of her's that has recentlyt gone through this with her husband (back in august) ironically enough this person's strength and actions is what sparked my wifes action back in august and has continue until now. She has feels that my wife is like her FWH and that strong action is the only thing that will break her free from the fence or the cake.

She told me that the only way she got her husband back is to move out take the kids and force him to participate in their daughters life... they are on the slow road to recovery.

I wish my wife would talk to her or someone to get a fair and balanced approach to what could go on.

So do I revise my plan b letter to be just this...

I write this letter with a heavy heart, my soul and spirits are at their lowest points ever. Over the past year I have tried to be a better husband and fix the problems from the past. I provided you with all the material items you wanted but I didn’t provide you with a strong husband and friend. Though I have seen my error and truly want to fix it, you have lost your love for me. I would first like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the demise of our marriage. I have made many mistakes in the past that can not be changed. I have made it clear to everyone that my time with my family, especially for my precious wife, is and will be my main focus. You will always come first

Here is what I need to do, our financial problems - I need to move back into the house, if that is too difficult for you. I would suggest maybe you saying with your parents while I stay in our home and continue be the primary care provider for our children. I know how you feel about me moving back home, I will take any action necessary to be there for the girls and take care of their needs, including my legal options. If you decide to stay in the house with the girls and I, we will have both have to set the example for the girls. That means honesty, truth, civility and no dating outside of our marriage.

I will be willing to discuss our future together as soon as you are willing to start work on our marriage and are willing to construct a plan to build a foundation for our marriage. Until that time I will continue to pray for our family and us.

made slight modification.... I added that I would need to move in by June 1st.... here is the reviced Plan A/B letter

I write this letter with a heavy heart, my soul and spirits are at their lowest points ever. Over the past year I have tried to be a better husband and fix the problems from the past. I provided you with all the material items you wanted but I didn’t provide you with a strong husband and friend. Though I have seen my error and truly want to fix it, you have lost your love for me. I would first like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the demise of our marriage. I have made many mistakes in the past that can not be changed. I have made it clear to everyone that my time with my family, especially for my precious wife, is and will be my main focus. You will always come first

Here is what I need to do in order to rectify our current financial problems: I need to move back into the house, by June 1st to avoid further financial problems. If that is too difficult for you, I would suggest you staying with your parents while I stay in our home and continue to be the primary care provider for our children. I know how you feel about me moving back home, I will take any action necessary to be there for the girls and take care of their needs, including my legal options. If you decide to stay in the house with the girls and I, we will have both have to set the example for the girls. That means honesty, truth, civility and no dating outside of our marriage.

I will be willing to discuss our future together as soon as you are willing to start work on our marriage and are willing to construct a plan to build a foundation for our marriage. Until that time I will continue to pray for our family and us.

Okay, I understand your attitudes and feelings better now. I think, and have thought for some time, your wife does badly need some shock to her comfortable life such as what you describe that friend of hers did. Your wife is sitting squarely on that fence and has been feasting on cake for a while now. To let it go on too much longer will be to allow her to get more fixed in her “married, but single” attitudes and I think it will only get worse. Strong action, making her understand she can’t get her EN’s met if she’s not a part of the marriage, is precisely what I think will break this stalemate.

This isn't a Plan B letter because you're not going into Plan B, btw. It's a statement of where you are and where you want to go and it does quite well in that respect. Plan B may be necessary if she decides to move out, but the mere fact she has to go to her parents and do without your daily support, including meeting her EN for financial security, may make Plan B unnecessary.

You’re going to do this by letter or email? Is that because she will react better to the written word rather than sitting down to talk about it or is this to set the stage for a sit down later on?

A couple of points.

I would change "lost your love for me" to "you feel you've lost your love for me." The first implies something final and irretrievable while the latter says her feelings can be changed.

Also, “demise of the marriage” has very negative connotations. I’d change that to something about “the problems/difficulties in our marriage.” Demise indicates something is gone…dead and buried. I don’t think you want to leave that impression with her.

Finally, a typo. “…saying with your parents…” should be “…staying with your parents…”

So I was thinking of leaving this letter at the house tomorrow night so that after I leave when she gets back from her job she would have it, then have it for the long weekend. Right now I think she will have the girls all weekend. Sunday they are going to the lake with friends to go for a boat ride and hang out at the lake. Saturday and monday I think they are just going to the pool - the pool I pay for <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So here is the final...

I write this letter with a heavy heart, my soul and spirits are at their lowest points ever. Over the past year I have tried to be a better husband and fix the problems from the past. I provided you with all the material items you wanted but I didn’t provide you with a strong husband and friend. Though I have seen my error and truly want to fix it, you feel you've lost your love for me. I would first like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the the problems/difficulties in our marriage. I have made many mistakes in the past that can not be changed. I have made it clear to everyone that my time with my family, especially for my precious wife, is and will be my main focus. You will always come first

Here is what I need to do in order to rectify our current financial problems: I need to move back into the house by June 1st to avoid further financial problems. If that is too difficult for you, I would suggest you staying with your parents while I stay in our home and continue to be the primary financial provider for our children. I know how you feel about me moving back home, I will take any action necessary to be there for the girls and take care of their needs, including my legal options. If you decide to stay in the house with the girls and I, we will have both have to set the example for the girls. That means honesty, truth, civility and no dating outside of our marriage.

I will be willing to discuss our future together as soon as you are willing to start work on our marriage and are willing to construct a plan to build a foundation for our marriage. Until that time I will continue to pray for our family and us.

Good letter. Go with it. I see why you're making it a letter instead of a conversation late tomorrow night. You're the one "on the ground" and you know what's best for your interaction with her.

I suggest you frontload your attorney with what you're telling her so he won't be surprised later on by anything coming down the pike.

Since your wife and daughters have plans for the weekend, why don't you do some Plan A things for yourself...or have you already decided a hammock strung between two trees is the finest thing you can do for yourself? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I plan on doing some running and reading I got a new book, "Seven Secrets of a Happy Marriage".

Option 1 is to give it to her tomorrow and let her sit on it over the weekend - might ruin her weekend thinking about it

Option 2 is give it to email it to her monday and let her have a few days before the first to think about it.

I would expect since I didn't do a Plan B no contact clause that she will call me up after reading it saying how controlling and manipulative I am... I am wondering if I should put in a breaker in there that says.....

I don't need to know any answer's right away, so please take the weekend to think and reflect on what you decide to do. When your ready I will sit down and talk to you about this and anything else.

The mind picture I’ve built up of your wife from your words is growing. Yeah, I suspect when she reads that she will have a couple of choice words she would like to convey to you.

The timing on delivery is completely up to you. Again, you're the guy in the foxhole waiting on incoming fire. You know her best, and you know what you need too. If a little R&R for you is in order, well...make your plans accordingly. Don’t make your plans based on shielding your wife from an unpleasant weekend; it needs to be about you for a change.

I think I will add the tag line to the end of the letter.

I am going to the kids concert tonight and I briging flowers for the girls and a card for my wife.... again I am still in plan a mode.

I have no need for foxholes, I am strong now and know that the only way to survive is standing tall and being able to take what comes.

My wife always complains about me being cocky or arrogant its really just self confidence, which I have a ton of except around her. That is something that I will need to change I will be confident but not arrogant.

Excellent.

So last night was interesting.....

Went to kids concert sat behind wife and MIL, girls did an awesome job. Oldest did flute solo and singing solo. The other two did a great job as well. I got to talk to them at the end walked them to the car and kissed them goodnight, did not have 1 word with W.

So I was on my way to where I am staying - its about 1.5 hours from the school, it was about 9:30PM went through downton (little town) and saw Guy#1 car and one of the local redneck bar..... So I decide to go in and just make sure he understood the letter. I walked in and we said hey and I bought a round for him and my W's co-worker's STBEXH... this family is straight out of a trailer park.... anyways Guy#1 is a former marine as well, and we talked for a bit and then started talking about W.... it was very interesting to hear what he said, basically my wife talked to him about herself the entire time, he said it was all me me me me that He heard from her. He realized that she was high maintenance and he admitted that he was just looking for sex and a good time from her because she was like a teenager all over the place when they talked.

He has moved on, or was always moving with other woman and they haven't talked in over a month and he has no inclination to talk to her and he actually wished me the best of luck, I told him that she was talking to Guy#2 the whole time she was talking to him.

So I didn't leave teh bar until 12:30. I text paged my wife at 1 am that I had talked to him, since I know it would probably have gotten back to her anyways.

Question when I deliver the letter to my wife should I stay and let her talk about it tonight or let her reflect on it for some time??? I would love to talk about it, but at the same time I think she needs reflection

I wouldn't stay. You're writing a letter to have a little bit of a "cut out" and reduce the personal impact. I'd let her read, absorb it, and react to it as she will. If you stay, you might just as well sit down with her and give it all to her verbally.

BTW, OM isn't a good old boy just out for a good time. He knew your wife was married and still dishonored the marriage by attempting to intrude into it. I would always think of him in that context.

Thanks... I will let her absorb and yeah I know what he is but I wanted to do some more recon and intel so I feel better about my position.....

You know I really feel low about having to do this to my wife because of her decisions and non action

I know you feel that way, Viking. I would too.

Unfortunately, you cannot shield her from the consequences of her choices. If you do, you reinforce her sense of entitlement, her disrespect for the marriage and you, and her feeling she has a right to self-indulgence.

As OM#1 noted last night, everything in her world is about her. That cycle must be broken or she will become even more self-centered. It hasn't hurt your daughters too badly yet, but it will.

No, sir, don't feel low, you're just doing a job that has to be done for the good of everyone concerned. Marines have been doing that since they were first organized. Hang in there, pardner.

So I had a good talk this afternoon with my wife and it surrounded her new dream. The local radio station is hiring an new morning show personality and she is going to go for it. Now she is gorgous and has a great personality and could do it, but she is already talking like they are going to select her and she hasn't even applied yet.... and then she is thinking how many opportunities it would create for her.

So my wife isn't having an affair or anything close to that but she is very into herself and I see this creating a lot of fog and her thinking she doesn't need me anymore which could very well be the case.

I pretty sure that I will be going fully into plan B next week and I will be filling for custody for my children soon there after

Very sad, Viking. She's not in an active adultery at this moment, but she's just out of one, and you only just thwarted another. If OM#2 had not been an honorable man, she would have been deeply involved with him right now.

I notice she’s quite willing to talk to you and engage in conversation when the subject is her and her dreams. I’d bet she was the same when discussing her last “dream job.” Evidently, that one has soured on her, and the radio job (if she gets it) will also. I have a brother who worked in that field for many years and it’s a lot of hard work, strange hours, and poor working conditions.

Like you, I suspect you’re going to have to go into Plan B to shake her out of the comfortable bubble she’s constructed around herself. It’s unfortunate she will not see the destruction she’s causing. Enjoy your weekend, Viking. Do some things for you the next few days.

okay it didn't take long for her to contact me... i was on the way back to my pad and she rang me several times.... then she had my oldest daughter beep me on the nextel an I answered because I thought she was at her friends house... wife immedately got on and said what was meant by the letter....

I first asked if we could talk about it tomorrow... then she started attacked..

what do all these threats mean... now you can read the letter in previous post, the only line in the whole thing was about take a legal option..

She then said how I have used our kids in this... I pointed out that WE discussed that we had to take our oldest out of lesson, which would kill her, and we discussed that I would tell her it was my decision because of finances.... but it was HER that came behind me and whispered in her ear that she would pay for it... how I don't know... but if that is not using our kids as a pawn

Then she was the one that scream in front of the kids about how is screwed another person and did this and did that, in front of my two oldest daughters.

She then asked what I thought would happen because of all these threats??? what threats

She then said... well well, I contacted a lawyer today and I did this and I did that... I know for a fact she didn't contact no one. she used 10 minutes on her cell phone today and those were to me....

She then told me that she was so hardened against me because of my infidelity two years ago that she could never find love for me again... I said Iam sorry she feels that way, but I am still about the marriage.

She then was going down the path of well you signed a letter when we first separated that says I will give her all property and proceeds from our house, which I did and which is not valid because of my mental condition at the time.. lawyer already knows about it and says its not valid.

So I have gone through all the options with my lawyer, she is through up smoke... I might loose on some of the property stuff but i already gave it up to her.... its the custody that will really be freak her out. With her selfish statements about what she wants to do with her career. I can just have that documented and the legal system will just say well you wouldn't have time for your kids if you do all this.. so we will just let the father have the girls he is already established and is already taking care of the kids... that will kill her I know but I don't know what else to do.... she again said in every statement my girls, my stuff, my life, my my my my... that is all I hear from her.

I think next week after I meet with the lawyer I got dark dark plan B

Well, you knew it was going to happen. She said things you had rehearsed in your mind and were ready for, right? It’s sad she's being so true to form. WS’s are known for their self-centered viewpoint though. You have to expect it.

You’re going to let her mull things over for the weekend? Her bluff about talking to an attorney didn’t work, but she may well try to see one on Monday. Have you secured your finances so she can’t loot your joint accounts to retain one? WS’s have been known to do that, you know.

I’m sorry she’s putting you in a position where you have to go through the legal system, but I think it was almost inevitable. Stay with it, pardner. It’ll get worse, but then it’ll get better and you’ll come out on the other side a better, stronger man than you went into this.

yeah I am at the point of thinking not about her but my girls so let her do what she thinks is best

Then it's near time for Plan B, but remember most Plan A's do go to Plan B. It's here where the wayward spouse comes face to face with the stark realization of how many of their EN's have been being met by the betrayed spouse. WS's find out quickly how cold and cruel it is out there without the support of their spouses. It's by no means 100% effective, but if your spouse is going to yank herself out of the fog and become a reasoning human being again, this is where she'll do it. Stay strong and get some rest this weekend, Viking.

BTW, she used your daughter as a pawn by having her daughter use the nextel function to get you to respond. I'll bet she didn't see that though, did she? <sigh>

Well I will have to wait and see.... What surprises me is that she knows that I have already used a lawyer once and that I once I get locked in on a plan I will follow through with it.

So she says that I am "threatening her" by saying I am going the legal route... So its not like I am saying I am going to beat your a#$ or do anything like that... Iam telling her that I have talked to a lawyer and i know my options and I don't want to but I am ready to go down that path if she doesn't give a little more thought to her decisions.

I think I will send her my full plan B letter this weekend.

The only thing is that I have to have contact with her about the girls.. but that will be it. All other issue with be handled by my lawyer.... Knowing my wife that will freak her out because I will plan a around the girls and plan b around the rest of her.. no conversation about what I will do will freak her out.

Why do we have to go down a path of hurting the one we love to show them that we love them.

So my lawyer last I talked to him told me not to give her any money... but I need to pay for food and stuff, should I ask my wife to provide receipts and I will reimburse her on expenses for the girls?

I don't understand. If your attorney doesn't want you to give her money (because she already has a job?), why would you be paying for food, etc.?

paying for the kids, he doesn't want me to give her anything that would be considered alimony until we negotiate our separation. That is why I also know she hasn't seen a lawyer on her own... if they heard what I have offered in my initial self done separation they would tell her to take it and run. She also doesn't have anything to stand on with the way of custody. I am an equal provider to the girls

I think you're actually doing most, if not all, of the parenting. Your WW doesn't have much time left over for them except when they contribute to her self image...swimming, riding, etc.

Frankly, I don't know how your attorney envisions the process of giving her money for the children. I thought you would have the children in your custody. I guess you're thinking of the time lapse between when your attorney files the legal action to get you back in the home and when it takes effect, right?

Well, anyway, no, I wouldn't work from receipts. I would give her an amount you think sufficient to feed the girls and take care of their other (basic) financial requirements (school, camp, whatever) for a week or whatever time frame you determine appropriate. (How long has it been since your wife had to work from a budget? Having to do so is pressure on her to come back to the marriage.) I'll bet it's been a long time.

Maybe you can adjust up or down based on feedback? Annotate each check you give her with "child support," or something to that effect? I still think you should run your question by your attorney. He'll probably have a good amount based on local conditions and experience with what court-ordered support is there.

She called me twice today... once while I was heading to the house while her and the girls were out - she asked if I could pick up some horse feed - which I did. I got to the house and cleaned up their breakfast mess and did a load of laundry. I am still doing Plan A stuff.

Then she just called to ask how to load pictures off a CD... her Best Friend took some headshots of her so she could submit for this radio job.... I heard the girl that is leaving the radio station and she was very emotional as she said it was a hard job and took away from her husband and gave her no time for her other interest and career in modeling and singing... WOW my wife thinks this job will be a stepping stone into modeling and actiong... I don't know how many people will apply but she has a chance.

My lawyer comes off vacation wednesday and I am going to try and get in as soon as possible.

First thing i am going to ask him is to call my wife and get her attorney's name and number - because she has one now so she says.

So I asked her to send me the picture that she chooses for her submittal.... lets see if she sends it

Yeah...again the pattern of talking to you about herself and things she needs/wants. Plan B will hit her like a ton of bricks. She has NO idea how much she depends upon you to meet all her ENs. What you heard about the job in radio being tough is similar to what my brother has told me after he worked in it for many years. The call from your attorney is going to make her sit up and take notice...I wonder what she'll do and say? I know she says she has a lawyer, but WS's have said that before. It'll be interesting.

What is ironic or sad or interesting is that I am logical thinker and always interested in human interaction and I have been catching myself looking at this situation in the third person. Almost like a chess play, if I do this would she do this.

So the letter is out there... she didn't answer the root questions last night would I be allowed back in or not... she was still up in arms about the 'threat"

So was about to send her an email seeing if she was going to answer the question but now I am going to wait until monday before asking her the question.

I was talking to someone about the sitch and specifically why I slept with someone and what was causing me needing to do it.... it is based on my EN not being met and my wife being selfish back then and makeing me feel that I needed to be entitled and I accept that I shouldn't have and should have been stronger, but she owns some of the problems in our marriage

Of course she owns part of the problems of the marriage. I'm surprised you doubted it. This pattern of behavior displayed by your wife is not a thing that was born overnight. It's grown up over the years. Today, she's not even aware of her sense of entitlement and the selfishness of her daily demands.

I'm not excusing what you did, btw. If I'd been around you back then, I'd have applied my size 11 combat boots where it would have done the most good. You were reacting to a deficiency in your marriage, but you made a horribly inappropriate choice in solving the problem.

You seem to understand how wrong it was to react that way though. Your wife does not. I strongly recommend you make some deep individual counseling/therapy for both of you as one of the conditions of reconciliation. That's in addition to the marital counseling you need to go to. You folks need to sit in the company of a wise ol' professional counselor who is oriented towards pro-marriage and who knows the problem of infidelity inside and out. You're going to have to shop around to find that guy, or gal. Start looking soon

You know what? I wouldn’t even call and ask her about the letter on Monday. Let the extended weekend pass. You put the onus on her to respond; keep it that way. If she won’t respond on her own volition, let the call from your attorney be her notification the problem isn’t going away. If she calls, sure, discuss it to death, but I'm not sure she will call.

I see signs your wife is something of a conflict avoider, though it might be something to do with the fog. No one likes intrusions into their Fantasyland. Aliens still in the fog ignore unfriendly things as long as they can. Anyway, I think she will avoid answering the questions in your letter until she absolutely has to do something. When she does, I think it’s going to be in a petulant, poorly considered manner because she won’t have used this weekend to actually sit down and consider what she should do. I suspect she will try to bargain with you again even though she should realize she has no position from which to make a bargain. I’m building a mind picture of your wife and that’s how I see her. What do you think so far about my picture of her?

So first thing.... last night she called me and asked me to look at her submission for the radio position, it was an email and included a picture that was taken by a friend yesterday... WOW she looked great, but her write up was really weak for a job that hundreds if not thousands will apply for - its a open call that they are doing for new on-air talent. I thought she would have written more and done it a bit better. I told her that the picture was great.... I had asked her earlier in the day if she would send me the picture she would be submitting. I was really suprised that she sent it and then when she called me up and asked my opinion of her submission

I see this her checking for land mines, she wasn't extremely warm but she wasn't cold. I think right now she is still on a different path than I am, but she wants us to be friends or whatever will make her feel okay.

However I am still plan A'ing and I am still needing to make tought decision about our finances and our daughter's.

Wife and the girls are heading to the lake today to go skiing with her best friends family. I had asked her last night if the girls could call me before they left to the lake, but she must have forgot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I will call them shortly while they are on the way to the lake. Hope she has fun and does get a chance to relax, but with 3 girls on the water or near water - she might not have a good time.

She had the girls all day yesterday and when I called last night to talk to the girls I could tell that she had been doing some disciplining....

Several people that have known my wife for years have also said she is a conflict avoider, she is also a person that will make herself the victim. I even confronted her parents about victimizing her when she was younger and her mom told me the things she had said happened didn't, but some things in her past did. However she always made it sound worse and made herself more the victim. Even now she is the victim.

One way she reacted to the letter was by saying that I couldn't make her sound like she was the one having the affair.... okay but your the one leaving the marriage, the one impacting the children, the one not making decisions, the one that wants her cake and eat it too.

LH I agree with, "When she does, I think it’s going to be in a petulant, poorly considered manner.." Just as she says he has talked to a lawyer already and whenever I make her feel out of control, she reacts poorly either throughs in the towel or trys to push buttons to cause an escalation in the conflict.

Well I think your right, I will leave it alone until wednesday. I will get my lawyer to call her and i will get an appointment with him to see about custody - by the way I don't think she is a bad mother but I also don't think i am a bad father.

I am sending this letter to my wife just to put some adminstrative things out to her but I want to make sure there is no DJ or LB in there... please let me know

wife,

How was your guys day at the lake... Hope you guys had fun.

I miss the girls and was wondering if Tuesday you could bring them to apex so I could see them. I know you don't work that day but I am down to 100$ for gas and I can't get to work, out to clayton wed/thus with out that. I could take them to the park right down the road and hang out with them for a hour or so.

I don't want to step over any boundaries or make your feel like that you can't or don't do things, god that is not what I think of you, but we need to make appt for the girls in july for the doctor. D3 has her 5 year old check still needed and D2 has a 8 year old checkup do. So we could get all 3 of them in for a checkup.

Also, if you think the girls need to see the eye doctor, we can make appt at the walmart eye doc for all 3 of them. I can find out how much it would cost and see about getting it done.

I would like to take the girls for the 4th July weekend and probably take them to the beach either in wrightsville or up to atlantic beach by moorehead.

Well either write back or give me a call when you have a chance.

me

Of course she forgot. It wasn't something she could identify as having a beneficial effect for her. Same, uh…stuff, different day.


********


Huh? Who does she think WAS involved with another man, and doing her darndest to get with a second one? Whew! The fog is strong in the alien today. She’s going to have a BIG shock when she comes up against the statutes regarding adultery if it goes that far, isn’t she? What you’re telling me is she didn’t learn a darned thing from the alienation of adultery letter from your lawyer to OM#1. If it had been me, I’d have suspected things might not be stacked in my favor in that direction.

BTW, how did OM#1 react to that, or do you know?


********

I see no LB's or DJ's at all in the letter. It doesn't mean she'll react favorably, but there's nothing in the letter but ordinary housekeeping issues. I suspect the thing she’ll fasten on is your request for her to bring the kids to you though. Let’s see if the weekend has put her in a good enough frame of mind to agree to that.

Good luck. Do some fun things for yourself this weekend too, Viking.

The bring the kids here is what I think she might have an issue with, but she seems to be oscilating lately and she might feel that I am due for all the times I do things for her.... I have missed the kids today, not so much her which is actually good. I have been obessing over her and I am starting not too.... but the girls I have spent so much time with them that it feels strange not having them around.

So she has never slept with anyone in our marriage, so she feels superior to me in that aspect. but I agree with you that she has been out of the marriage for quite sometime.

I love google desktop, i got into her machine and even though she had deleted a lot of emails over the past 8 months I at least was able to piece together some of her other converstaions.

Yeah i am going to go out tonight and watch Xman III and then probably find somewhere's to watch the hockey game tonight, even though I don't like hockey.... unfortunately all "our" friends are married and are with their families this weekend...

You know I think she might have issue with me having the girls the 4th but it would only be fair she had them this holdiay weekend and that is what I will point out to her.

While doing some research on custody and what I can expect I found this interesting portion of the marital laws..... So the wife says I adbonded her - because her friends have repeated laymens interpertation of the laws and what could happen in court... this is what my lawyer was probably talking about about taking a lot of steam out of her sail.....
The key thin is the 3 element of abandonment,

a) I had justification to leave my wife was having an EA
b) She asked me to leave
c) and I have all intentions to renew cohabitation

What I am thinking of doing is sending her an crafted email ask her if she asked me to leave in august and to leave in march was due to her needing space or to talk to these guys??

2. Abandonment

Abandonment occurs when a spouse brings cohabitation to an end without justification, without the consent of the other spouse, and without the intent of renewing cohabitation. All three of these elements must be proved by the spouse seeking to show the other spouse's abandonment. A spouse is justified in leaving the other spouse, however, when the withdrawing spouse cannot continue the marital relation with safety, health, and self-respect.

North Carolina cases also recognize constructive abandonment as marital fault as well. Constructive abandonment arises when the other spouse does not physically leave the home but, rather, commits affirmative acts of cruelty or neglect or other willful failure to fulfill the obligations of marriage.

The dependent spouse may be driven to leave the home, in fact, by such acts of cruelty or neglect. Notice that the dependent spouse who is forced to leave the home by the other spouse's misconduct not only does not abandon the injuring spouse but has, in fact, been constructively abandoned.

How does this sound for a crafted letter - I need her to acknowledge that she asked me to leave - thus giving me consent

wife,

You asked me to leave and separate back in august and then you asked me to leave and separate in march.

Did you do that to have space? Or did you want to try and start a new life?

Oh, she's bringing up ancient history huh? It figures. <sigh>

Are these newly recovered emails you’re talking about? I hope they give you an insight in how to negotiate things with her when she’s found out how bad it is out there for her in Plan B. I can’t get by what your mother told you about her penchant for portraying herself as a victim. Some of the events never happened and she exaggerated her victimization in many of those that remained, eh?

Pardner, when it comes to setting conditions for reconciliation, I seriously think you have to set a firm requirement for her to go to IC and cooperate with the IC fully. Over and above the problems with fidelity in your marriage, your wife has some real issues within herself that need identification and resolution.

She will have problems with the girls being with you on the 4th of July. I predict it. However, she won’t immediately express any misgivings with it…so long as you’re complimentary about the photo she’s using to apply for the radio job and don’t tell her how weak her resume is...and nothing else happens to irritate her. It’ll be something she reserves for a moment when she’s no longer getting that boost in her esteem from you. However, you may never need to address it. Hopefully, you’ll have custody by that time and you may even be in a dark Plan B.

Good luck with X-Men III. I haven’t done anything but see a couple of trailers for it. I’m going to settle for a couple of good John Wayne war movies on AMC or TNT. There’s more of a story to them anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LH I am watching wake island now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have a feeling that my wife will let me move back in as long as between now and then I don't irrate her, but I am not going to ask. but what I think I will do is get ahold of the lawyer on wednesday and just have him call her and have him layout....

I am your H lawyer
I need to know if your going to allow him to move back in?
Your H says you have retained a lawyer, would you please provide their name and number so I can update your case file.

I can wait this week but you know this still really sucks, because I am going to have to use bill money to pay for the lawyer, so I am damned if I do and I am damn if I don't.

But I feel if I get back into the house I can do a sold plan A and start moving forward. I don't know how solid my wife's position is, but I don't want to assume anything. I don't want assume an alien, I need to assume she is serious about divorce and act accordingly, but at the same time improving myself. I have been reading the seven secrets of marriage and again I see a lot of things that she brings to our marriage and she is not owning.... oh well will have to see if we get to a point where we can talk about IC.

We are supposedly still going to MC this week, which is a good sign.

I have a question because you guys are in a position that counter's mine. I am husband that wants custody or atleast 50/50 custody of my 3 girls (6/8/11) So I am fully engaged in their lives and when I realized that my wife was just going along with parenting, the only time they have breakfast before school is when I fix it and I fix eggs or pancakes. If they are hungary they usually fix themselves a bag of dry cereal to take in the car. So I work 60 hours a week and my wife works 20 hours a week and I come home / before we separated and would do things like vaccum or laundry or clean the toilets.

Now I am a service oriented person I like doing things for people so that is how I was trying to show that I cared..

So our girls are in private school that we both agree on but we are moving to another school - again we agree - now we have been talking about me taking the girls and picking them from school each day - its on my way to and from work and she is taking a new "her dream job" but it goes from 3:30 to 8PM almost every night. She also will work 1 weekend a month...

So my question is if your H was a caring father and would do good things for you kids even if you were separated/divorcing what would you think of that?

I have issues with some of her actions and how she does mothering for herself and will let the kids operate on their own for a lot of the time.

I talked to the wife this morning and it was small talk but then I allowed myself to get pulled into a R talk, it went down hill from there. She pulled out all the things I have done in the past 11 years but I didn't go down that path.

I focused on listening, repeating and understanding.

I told her that I wanted her to tell me when she thought I was being disrepectful or judgemental

We got a bit hot so I ended the call with a bow out..

I did send her this txt page a bit later..."Please believe me that I don't want to fight or upset you anymore. I am lost and operating on instinct and trying to take what your saying to me about what I have done in the past and improve myself. If there were 5 things you would like me change what would they be, this is for me to know? Honesty? conversation? respect? affection? acknowledgement?"

I don't know if it was appropriate or not

Viking, I don't think it's going to get you anywhere engaging her with texts like that, or arguing with her about all the problems in the marriage back to day one. While they are sincere efforts on your part to get a dialogue going, is not going to work because in her rewrite of history, you are nothing but the devil incarnate. Dialogue depends upon both parties coming to the table in good faith and with a willingness to work toward a solution. She’s not there yet. These issues are things to discuss in marital counseling at some point in the future.

Instead of letting small talk devolve into arguments that lead nowhere, use reverse babble to deflect her anger and avoid your own heated replies. I’m sure you’ve run across the concept in your time here but here’s a link to a thread about it anyway.

Orchid's Reverse Babble Thread


********

Okay, so the rest of the week is going to go something like:

1. You’re waiting to see if she responds to your request to come home favorably
2. If she doesn’t, you’re calling your attorney to initiate legal action
3. ?

You’ve been vacillating a little on what you’re going to do when you get back in the home. Specifically, I don’t have a good handle on whether you’re going to attempt more Plan A or whether you’re going to go to Plan B at that point or what. Are you going to hold up on Plan B until she reacts to you being back in the home?

I’m sure you’ve told us all of that, but maybe it would be a good thing to set it all out again. I know it helps me get things clear in my mind.

Enjoy your Memorial Day, pardner.

So I think I got a slap in the face with her still believing that I interferred with just a friendship, when the friend even agress it was not appropriate....

I have my Plan B letter ready to go and if she does decide not to allow me to come back to the house, I will launch the Plan B letter today and contact the lawyer wednesday.

I just not seeing any movement in her attitude that she has no responsibility in our marriage or what she is doing now. I am not even thinking of the past I am thinking in the last 6 months

Okay, I just posted on your other thread. I think I see now you went through a low point a few hours ago. You’ve been getting excellent advice from Melody and MrsWondering. They’ve been out here for a long time and have a lot of insight into the problems you’re facing. My questions on the other thread still remain though.

Is there a possibility you can get a magistrate to provide an order for you to return to the home and then you do a little more Plan A…or do you see that as being to stressful and too painful? Can you lay out all the pros and cons as you see them? Sometimes that helps organize one’s thoughts.

Hang in there, Viking. Melody, MrsWondering, all the rest, and I are here to help you through this and you WILL get through it.

Thanks yeah today has been a bit rough but hashing it out her instead of with her is making things much better.

Its not the pain or stress its the FOG its the utter FOG that I have to deal with it

Okay, not a problem. The frustration of having to deal with someone who WILL not use logic is tremendous. But, it's the alien talking, not your wife. Remember the fish head thing you had going for you a while back? Bring it back, pardner. If you expect only gibberish, and who can expect anything but gibberish from aliens with the head of a fish on their shoulders, then you can relax.

There’s no way they can reason logically, right? So don’t expect them to. Ease up and just go with the flow. Did you read Orchid’s “Reverse Babble” thread I showed you? There’s the way to go. When the alien has control and starts babbling out of the fog at you, babble right back at it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay I sent her the LJ post from the other thread and she ate me up.. how dare I and all she could focus is that I keep saying there were OM's... she didn't sleep with anyone so I am still the diseased on... that is what she is calling me now the diseased one. I pointed out the 5 guys she spoke to in the past 9 months but that doesn't matter because she didn't sleep with them...

I guess what LH was sayinn in the other thread is that I just need to wait and get my lawyer to talk to her and get the ball rolling on that front. stay way from the alien talk

Well, you tried to reach out to her and found out she's not ready for that yet. Live and learn, huh? It's done; put it behind you.

Yeah, stay away from the alien talk. Man, get used to her not being receptive to any overtures from you about the taboo subject of anything to do with relationship, okay? Remember? She’s not your wife. It’s an alien standing there, spewing bile because they can’t absorb affection, honesty, or logic.

She clearly doesn't understand the concept of an EA, does she? Do you have the book Not "Just Friends by Shirley P. Glass, PhD.? If not, get a copy and go through it. It'll give you an insight into what she's doing, why she's doing it, and how to respond.

I’m concerned about the number of men you’ve now identified. You’ve reevaluated things and can now see five men as having had inappropriately close relationships with her? Melody used the word trolling in one of her posts to you. I think that smart lady was right on the money. She may not have actually engaged in a sexual adultery yet, but she sure is heading in that direction, isn’t she?

Did she have any time left over to talk about you coming back home? No? If not, I'm not terribly surprised. If it's not on her terms, it's an uncomfortable subject and she’ll delay as long as she can. I do think you’ll have to be patient until your deadline has passed and then invoke the legal option. Like Melody said on your other thread, legal actions have a strong effect on anyone, but particularly to those living in a fantasy. Documents from a cold, harsh, real life court of law deliver a shock far beyond their actual content.

I forgot to ask. How much of LJ's post did you print out for your WW? Specifically, does WW now know you are coming to this website now? That can be a problem because she would be able to log in herself to see your strategy in all this.

okay I decide to pick the girls up from school and take them to the pool.... wife just paged me asked ask me if I WOULD like to stay for dinner?

I responded with I would love too,

but in my mind I am thinking what is going on is this a trap?

I was so angery at her earlier for what she said to me about being a disease, monstor, that she [email]f@$King[/email] hate me, wants nothing more to do with me, dispises me all that in a 17 minute phone call.... then she ask me for dinner.

she knows of "marriage builders" but I don't think she has the interesting in any snooping or anything that deals with me. I did send her LJ whole post unedited because I could imgaine changing anything in it

Trust your instincts, Viking. If it seems like a trap, it probably is in some fashion or another. The mood swings are typical though. Just ride with the punches, pardner.

If it begins to appear she is reading here on MB, it'll need to be addressed. For now, this needs to be just YOUR sanctuary.

Yeah, I agree with Longhorn on that. You and your wife have two separate agendas afterall. You want to be together. She wants to be apart. Her kneejerk reaction is going to be opposition to anything that doesn't fit into her agenda. That's not too much different from how you might react to her 'divorce' agenda.

You can influence her thinking, Viking, but you can't do her thinking for her. It's a 'chipping away' process because it takes time to rebuild trust. There are more obstacles actually in "rebuilding" trust than there were in developing it in the first place.

Ultimately, she has to make the choice to be with you on her own. She has to WANT reconciliation at some point for there to be any kind of true emotional connection between you again. Baby steps are better than nothing though. Tonight it's "I-hate-you-lets-have-dinner". Tomorrow, who knows?

You can let go of some of the pressure you put on yourself when you realize that here's nothing you can do that's going to directly change her mind. She has to do that for herself. Not to say you won't keep "chipping away";).... But maybe you won't engage your expectations to the degree that you're feeling disappointed when she doesn't respond in the way you'd hoped.



p.s. You might give some thought to editing the really bad vents and whatnot out of your posts. If it was me.... I'd snoop. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Okay... I wasn't going to post today but too much has happened...

Dinner was like eating with the ice princesses.

She was cold and very nasty, I asked to help -NO!!!
I asked to get her something NO!!!!

Then we sat down for dinner and the girls almost started to dig in and I said aren't we forgetting something... they said oh and put their forks down to do a prayer... that is when Wife got up to go to the kitchen, the girls said they would wait for her and she pretty harass tone said NO go ahead and do it... so we did without her.

The girls are 11/8/6 like any parent you want them to have good manner's so I watched for a second and saw all 3 reverting back to stuff we had worked on, elbows on tables, fork holding, chewing with their mouths open... She was doing nothing about it - so I started calmly correcting them.

Got done with dinner did all the dishs and she still sat their watching TV.... so I excused myself and left.

It really effected me to how she treated the girls I was upset and not very happy.... I had convinced myself to go into deep dark Plan B with legal action pending...

Now this morning I talked to the girls like I normally do.. She has been calling me every morning just to chat about her.... this morning she called i didn't answer. call several times didn't answer... She finally left a voicemail and said its not right when she needs to get ahold of me about the girls...

So I called her back... said what is wrong with the girls??
I had asked the girls to ask her to see if it was alright for me to pick them up today. She reminded me that we need to talk about stuff like that if we are doing custody...I said fine we will get the custody thing all worked out.

She did apologoize for how she acted yesterday... I asked her if she apologized to the girls? She asked why and I told her about the dinner prayer..

Then I said if that is it then bye.... hangup

She calls me back and starts to talk and almost started int o a rant... I asked her to stop and I couldn't take the berating anymore.... I asked her not to call me anymore... I said I was DONE with the berating... then she immedately repeated so your done do your done so your done... then hung up.....

I got to work - didn't really feel anything - kinda felt normal... she called me one more time... I answered....

We talked for another 30 minutes she broke a lot of walls down - but still mostly fog talk. I think she realized that I am serious about taking things to the next level - with out having to state it.

So make a longer story long.... She said she would go to the concert June 16 that she originally said she wouldn't
She said she would still go to MC with me.

She told me how a lot of things in the past have hurt her, was very specific this time unlike the general statements I usually get.

Changed from the past 11 years were horrible and unbarrable to the past 2 years... even though a lot of hurt I caused has been over the 11 years.

Now I know this could be a delaying tactic and it could be and by no means do I think we are in recovery but she really got a new attitude.... lets see if it stays.

I think you're entirely correct to be cautious when you see isolated moments of lucid thought amidst so much foggy bile. It’s a sign, though, pressure on her adulterous attitudes is beginning to work. Your WW has a number of emotional needs she doesn’t even realize she has, but last night and today show she’s beginning to get an inkling.

Good work. The thing is, though, if she hasn’t addressed you getting back into the home, then everything else is just talk. Words, as the old saying goes, are cheap and actions are the critical steps. If she doesn’t commit to you returning to the home very soon, then you’ll know she’s just using 16 June as a ploy to deflect you. I’m saying she needs to commit “today” (whenever today is) for you to move back in “day after tomorrow.” It has to be a definitive commitment for it to mean anything. Stay with the plan, Viking.

okay here is the update....

I am so tired - such a doormat feeling

Yeah I gave her another extention this morning on moving in and it all felt so wonderful - she still saying there is a lot of pain and hurt that she has to work through and this and that....

So after I got off with her and got onto work, I checked my daily keylogger email from her PC..... last night after I left she went onto cupid.com and was searching Divorced Men in Raleigh.... what a freaking troll

I agree only after I gave her the cold shoulder this morning did she turn on.... she is out trolling for men now on the internet what a immature child she is.

I text paged her today saying i found on her computer a hyperlink to cupid.com and the link took me to the divorced men raleigh page... didn't give up the source of the interl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyways I just said I don't need to talk about it but at the end I said I guess things never change. She had me so convienced that her talking to men was innocent but it was the guys always talking about sex or hooking up or whatever. She is such the manipulator

Now on top of that her dream job is starting summer schedule and she was hoping to work some of the camps which would get her 20-30 hours a week... schedule is out she works 2 days a week 6 hours total.... She still says oh I can still hope for the radio job.... or maybe modeling?

So what I hear her saying is well let me keep the paycheck around for another month (that would be me) while I see if anything else pans out. How selfish can one person be.

What is sad is this how she has always been from day 1 not just since the fog.

I really need to say I am not coming back until your ready for reconciliation and to work on the marriage not to have me around until your ready to work on the marriage....

While she ponder's that I am going to the lawyer and start the process of getting the girls and selling the house, its way to big and we can't afford it and its what she wanted not me.

Well it sounds like its going to be another fun and interesting week

So you're not going to try to get back in the home?

I am not with out boundaries and a committment to the marriage. I am getting close to the end of my string with the berating and the manipulation and all the things she has accused me of for so long... I will get back into the house via either her committment or legal order, but not if I have to wait another month to ask.... she is just feeding me a line crap.

Okay, I see now. Press on with getting back into the house. Your alien WW will try to negotiate with her last breathe, but it means nothing. The alien is fighting to keep the support of her marriage around her but to act like she's single. As you say, it's not worth waiting another day to see what happens, much less a month.

LH what concerns me as the longer this draws out the more I see my wife as who she has always been and really is.

I thought I was marrying up she was so beautiful and thought she had her act together what I am finally coming to grips with is her shallowness and her selfishness.

She has tried to manipulate me around every corner, by playing the victim, by threatening me, so many ways... and now I am for once standing up... you know I loved ladyjanes post so much because it was my post it was how I felt the paycheck the lack of affection and attention... I know my decision to sleep with a prostitute was mine and it was wrong, but she had blame in this as well and she can't or wont see it and take her responsibility.... this is more than just an alien, what if their is no alien?

What if I was the alien and the fog and alien are lifting out of me? Its a lot to think about.

Pardner, she has a part in all the troubles of the marriage. There's no doubting that. Your adultery with the prostitute is yours and you need to own it, but the feelings she's allowed to proliferate within the marriage contributed to a climate where the adultery was possible. Your responsibility to her adultery is the same. To wit, you might not have done everything you could have to prevent your wife from choosing that option as a solution to perceived problems. All that is a matter for a TON of couples counseling when you get this trolling issue resolved.

If you can, Viking, concentrate on getting back into the home and establishing your boundaries for the immediate future. I know it’s too easy to start dissecting your entire marriage at a time like this, but you have to remember, along with the bad times, there’ve also been good ones. Your wife has given you three beautiful little girls, you know. That incredible gift will mean more to you than you can imagine in the years to come. I know you’re depressed right now, Viking, but don’t let it consume you. Get back into the home where you can work on yourself and her too before making any decisions, okay?

Your LoveBank hasn't had any deposits for a long while, Viking. It's no wonder you're getting tired. It's a struggle to keep loving someone when they're not reciprocating your efforts.

You're the only guy who can decide when 'enough is enough'. But I think there's still some hope left if you want to stay in it for a little while longer. It's entirely up to you though.

I can't help but think there must've been some reason way back when that you decided she was 'the one'. And I'll tell you from experience that my first thoughts when my husband became "wayward" were much the same as yours. I felt like I'd married a complete stranger.

But it wasn't true. He was just going through some crazy stuff, and it was making him behave in CRAZY ways. He's still my guy. He was just whacked out.

I dunno. I'm a 'glass is half-full' kind of person. Your wife seems to be ALL OVER THE PLACE in alot of ways. It's almost like she's hovering between the State of Withdrawal and the State of Conflict. (????)

When you review the information in The Three States of Marriage, the way back to Intimacy seems to be through Conflict. Not to say that you should start fighting with her all the time, but maybe you can expect her to turn up the noise a bit as she experiences the transition. The fact that she's finding you to be annoying at least means she's aware of your presence. See... glass half-full. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

From How One Spouse Can Lead the Other Back to Intimacy: Here



The whole 'Three States' article is one of my favorites and well worth reading again from time to time.

Your wife is naturally going to be oppositional with you right now. Her agenda is different from yours. So, I think you can EXPECT adversarial behavior from her. That shouldn't be something that surprises you at this point. She's going to say and do things that p*ss you off. She wants you to give up and LEAVE afterall.

But you don't have to necessarily allow her barbs to hit the mark. It takes strong emotional control to prevent yourself from internalizing someone else's bad behavior. I think the natural instinct for all of us it to feel bad and react with anger when someone's trying to 'get our goat'.

But if you recognize the behavior for what it is... there's no point in getting mad. You're dealing with a REALLY frustrated individual who is having a difficult time getting what she thinks she wants. You don't have to give in to the temptation to respond to her moods. You can let her carry her own bags on that.

Instead, you have a nice dinner with the kids and show your wife a pleasant demeanor. You don't absorb her temper like a sponge. It only makes YOU feel bad too when you do that. She's feeling her own emotions. She doesn't need YOU feeling them with her.

What I'm suggesting to you is different from 'absorbing and then keeping your reaction under wraps'. What I'm saying is that you don't absorb it AT ALL. You just refuse delivery on somebody else's bad mood.

It's kind of like when your kids are misbehaving. You don't adopt whatever emotion they're feeling when they're having a tantrum. You stay cool and set the example, because if you allow yourself to absorb their strong emotion when they're out-of-control.... it escalates the situation.

This isn't a whole lot different really. She's not getting what she wants, and she's acting out because of it.

But I've got to say.... it would be just as easy for her to shoo you away. 'Withdrawal' is a more peaceful place, right? So, on some level she must WANT you to remain engaged. The glass is half-full again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

One other thought for you. Choose wisely when you choose your battles. It's important to "correct" the kids when they misbehave... but you don't want to come off like a 'stiff'. Good parenting is an attractive quality, but when you can also show that you're a fun, easy-going guy too... it's even MORE attractive. Besides that, you don't want to 'show her up'. That'll just give her another excuse to be mad.

And you surely don't want to try to "correct" her bad manners. That's like asking for a fight. She's already oppositional. She's gonna dive on that like a duck on a junebug. In her current mood... you're just proving her point for her when you give her excuses to be mad.

You know, not everything out of her mouth is "fog". There's some wheat mixed in with the chaff. It's a tough thing to do in separating the two out. But well worth the effort. So in your daily interactions, it will help you to be mindful of her complaints from back before things got this bad. Those issues are still festering, so if any of your behaviors bring them back to the forefront of her mind, or if she feels they are not yet being addressed....she gets to feel justified in wanting out.

You want your interactions to be positive ones as often as possible. Positive interaction leaves her wanting MORE. Now, I'm not saying that you should 'roll over' on the big issues. But hey, you don't want to let a molehill turn into a mountain either.

Wife's bad manners at dinner = Molehill. Just as long as you choose to leave it that way. Wife looking up divorcees on cupid.com = CRAZY BEHAVIOR. Doesn't necessarily mean that she's unveiling her true subterranean character.

Don't forget that YOU are firmly entrenched in the State of Conflict. Your Taker will be making demands of you. It wants fair treatment in a situation in which "fair treatment" is a long-shot at best. You'll have to resist your Taker's influence if you want to hang in there.

I don't know what to tell you about the legal stuff. That'll be for you to decide. But I don't think you have to leave Plan A to do whatever it is that you need to do. In theory, you can introduce REALITY to the situation and do it pleasantly, without slipping into the State of Withdrawal. At that point, you're just a guy doing what he needs to do, afterall.

Last night I got the girls to bed and waited for the wife to get home. I had paged her earlier about finding the cupid.com webpage and I told her I didn't need to talk about it but I put it out there that I knew and said I guess things don't change.

When she got home she actually engaged me and asked me why I didn't just ask her what was up. She gave me some line maybe true maybe not about why she did it. She tried to put a very comical spin on it... but she wasn't nasty. We talked for about an hour some relationship stuff....

We were talking about the things I was doing before the separation, making her tea, meeting her for breakfast instead of rushing off to work, going to bed with her instead of staying up, etc etc.... She said well it doesn't coung if it doesn't come from the heart and I was just acting to make her feel better.... I stopped her right there and told her that SHE can't not tell me what is in my heart. How I feel is mine, she only can know what is in her's. I spoke firmly right then but the rest of the time was calm and straightforward.

She spoke in a way that she hasn't spoken to me in a while... but I have a fear that its because life is putting pressure on her... but I don't know yet will have to wait and see

Life is putting pressure on the alien fog and the fantasy, Viking. That's what the program is all about. That you see signs of your wife peeking out from behind the alien is good. Keep it up.

Well I my wife seems to be more upbeast about herself and I guess yesterday she was on a field trip and talked to some other mothers that were previously separated one for 1 year the other for 3 years and they have both reconciled....

What is getting me down is that its all about HER healing from my adultery their is no recognizion of mutal responsibility. Which I have the greater burden to bear but its all about her there is no us and there is no ownership of her actions.

I am not going to ask her about moving back in anymore, I really don't want to. I want to recover but moving back in would be a win for her and she would continue to feel like the victim in all this.

So I am going to start looking for an apartment this weekend, and plan on moving in in July so I can have the girls over and will work with my lawyer about getting the girls during the school year and she can have them on the weekends.

She still has not looked for ANY work.

THey did however call her back for the 2nd round of interviews for the radio job.. which is stoking her esteem and I am supporting her in that, but its all about her.... I wonder if she got the job our reconcillation would be off... I doubt it because she would need someone to watch the girls.... which we don't need to be married to here to do that.

You can't set the pace on her healing, any more than she can set a timetable for yours. You BOTH have wounds, and you're BOTH in pain. It takes time to resolve all that.

You can s-t-r-e-t-c-h for time by not allowing your emotional focus to be on your wife all the time. You're in a crappy situation, but you know....you'll never get one minute of your life back after it's spent. Try to find some time enjoying a little bit of your day each day. You don't wan't to ignore the problems, of course. But you don't want to be more of a blowtorch than a candle in terms of emotional intensity either. Reconcilliation is a marathon, not a sprint. You can't let yourself get all burnt out like this.

Have you had a depression screening with your doctor, btw? You're in a tough position, and people can become situationally depressed. Lots of folks respond well to treatment with ADs during marital crisis, and it helps them to stay on a more even keel. I'm not saying you are, or you aren't. It's just something to keep in mind.

I get depressed like anyone but its not a great amount and I don't have the personality for depression. I have been focusing on her and her actions I know your right that I need to defocus on her and not get sensitive....

She only got this reconcilator tone when I started ignoring her rants and started to move towards Plan B and she noticed I was not triggering anymore and I was getting ready to move on... So I don't know what she is doing now is a delaying tactic or what....

Its been two months since we separated and she hasn't looked for a job so I am totally responsible for HER and MY finances during the separation.

Viking, I don't understand where you're coming from. You've been all over the map the last couple of days and I can see you're going through a tough time. The depression is stronger now.

What's with this apartment thing? Two days ago, you were saying you couldn't afford to live with two residences. Listen, being a weekend father is not nearly as good as being with them full time.

How in the world would you moving back into the home be a victory for your wife? That's absolutely false. She wants to have the freedom to act single and she can't do that if you're in the home with her. She might well play the victim. So what? She's only a victim in her fantasy world. That doesn't make it real. Look, Viking, nothing you've said about her is impossible to deal with through counseling.

I mentioned anti-depressants early last month to you but I can’t find where you ever responded. Frankly, you need them to help you get through this. They will help even out your moods and prevent low points as deep as this one.

Viking, do NOT make any decisions about recovery until you recover your equilibrium. If you fall into the same fantasy world your wife inhabits, you’ll regret it later. Stay with us, pardner. This too shall pass.

So LH I agree pressure is there but how do I do it correctly? Do I back away for a while and be supportive or do I continue to move in the direction I am?

Yes, the pressure is beginning to work...and always remember this is a battle against the alien who's come into your world. There is no reason to back away right now. Would a Marine commander back off in a firefight when he saw his men were beginning to break through the enemy line? No. If anything, the pressure needs to be ratcheted up. Get back into your family home where pressure against her “single life” fantasy can be increased.

I see in your words some question about whether anything will work, and even if it does, will there be anything there for you at the end. You’re not happy with what you see in your wife/alien and you’re not willing to settle for the old status quo. I agree. Neither of you should settle for what was going on before.

However, you can’t fix those problems with her in her current fantasy world where she believes she can take, take, and take more from you in the marriage but act single and troll for men outside the marriage. The thing is, you have to fix this adultery problem first, and then work on the emotional deficits you’ve been suffering for so long. With no one else intruding into the marriage, the two of you can work on them and solve them.

It might not work out, Viking. Nothing is guaranteed in life. But if you don't eliminate the adultery and then work on the other problems, you'll never know what might have been. If you work through the MB strategy, even if things don't work out, you will have done everything you possibly could to save the marriage. You won't have to wonder about it.

Once you’re back in the home, you’ve been planning to continue doing Plan A in the home for as long as you can. Plan A might bring her around, particularly if you can get her to pay attention during counseling. It probably won’t though. You will probably have to go to Plan B. That’s what you’re working toward and it’ll probably have to be implemented if she doesn’t achieve some breakthrough in counseling. It’s a winning hand, Viking. If anything is going to bring your wife to a realization she needs you and needs to recommit to the marriage, it’s the MB strategy.

Stay on course, Viking. Your plan was to get back in the home where your finances would be in a better state and where you can do a better Plan A and be there for your children. Nothing has happened that should interrupt that plan. Be strong, pardner.

VK,

It would be a big mistake if you don't try to return to your own house, both for your M and the upcoming custody battle. You cannot really work on the M if you are not around.

Second, even though you may have a strong legal case, nothing is guaranteed in court. I should know. Not being in your home will not help you in court. In fact, it will most likely hurt you.

It is not wise to let your emotions of the moment dictate your actions. I know how you feel, but you must follow the plan that was brought about through reason.

Thanks guys... I felt pretty low this moring and last night, I a guess I was doubting my own success. The success of knowing that I have changed and made my self better and presented myself to my wife as a better husband.. I don't need to go back and be sarcastic and mean or spiteful. I need to go back and share with her that I am still focused on the marriage and getting us back together....

I am going to be with two of the girls while the wife takes the oldest to a end of school party.... I am not going down the path of the apartment. I will work on getting back into the house.

Right or wrong I think I will try and share with my wife some of my fears about this week. not all but the one that I had about her change of direction.

She has said she see hope for us and that she needs more time to heal.

I am giving her tonight child support, and per my lawyer since Iam paying in cash I am going to ask for a receipt... to remind her that we are still separated and that hasn't changed.

Again I want to assure you that Iam back on message and point, getting in the house and working on Plan A.... I think truly in her head she doesn't see her conversations as a big deal, she has always had guys talking to her and she really likes the attention. I just need to show her that I can give her attention and be the one for her to lean on.

Okay, that sounds more like the Viking we've come to know.

Choose your battles in this relationship talk. In Plan A, one doesn't generally push for "Relationship" discussions because the wayward spouse isn't ready for them. Be delicate, and above all else, don't expect it to change anything in her mind right now.



You recognize that as a delaying tactic, right? It's just one more attempt of hers to push things on down the road just that little bit more.

Reference her conversations, and particularly the ones that go too far and slip into EA's: how about rereading Dr. Harley's advice in SAA on the requirement for friends to be friends of the marriage rather than individual friends of one partner or the other? It'll give you good ammunition for discussing such things. Also, use Dr. Phil's criteria. If she wouldn't do these things in front of you, it's cheating.

Hang in there, pardner. We're with you.

Got a boost when I went out to the house today.... my oldest came out and met me and said don't tell mom i said anything 'but mom told me that you guys might be getting back together."

So my batteries are recharged a bit now and back in with game face on

Excellent. Your wife is peeking out from behind the alien. Watch for more signs but don't be disappointed if it's a while before you get another glimpse. Baby steps. Now get back in the game, pardner.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Very cool. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
"Maybe" beats the heck out of "Never", right?

I'm not wanting to twist your arm, but please..... give some serious thought to talking to your doctor about depression. It made a world of difference for my husband at the time when we were in marital crisis, and he's completely recovered now. He responded very well to treatment, and he only needed the ADs for a few months until he was over the hump.

From here, your "lows" are looking awfully low. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ...and you just don't have to put yourself through all that. There's no stigma. You have nothing to prove. But only a qualified professional can diagnose you. You can't diagnose yourself. Food for thought, that's all.

In the meantime, have some patience for each other. Rome wasn't built in a day, you know. Y'all have alot of work to do. And it's going to take time for you to rebuild emotional trust with one another. The more empathy you can each develop, the quicker the process.

You can help that along by using the Listen, Rephrase, and Repeat method. You want to give and receive the correct message without either of you making assumptions about the other person's motives. Improving the quality of your communications is going to help you both in the process of resolving your conflict.

You might also consider starting a couple of journals. When I was going through my troubles, I kept two. One worked almost like posting on a thread. We could each address the other person's thoughts, and because we were writing instead of talking... we were forced to slow down the process. That gives you a little more time to choose your words and say what you really mean. It does the same for the other person. And it's a great way to explore differing opinions or misconceptions without the 'heat' of poorly chosen words. The drawback is... that you can't have alot of expectations for your mate working at the same pace as you. My husband only made one entry for every SIX of mine. But at the minimum, he was reading along and he could guage my progress, so I felt like he was listening.

I kept a separate journal just for VENTING. This one was completely private, and I poured my negativity into it. It kept me from slopping my anger and vitriol onto my husband. Writing uses up more energy than talking, so I was better able to commit my obsessive thoughts to paper...and keep them from swirling around in my brain distracting me from my goals.

One last thought for you. Your wife has an emotional advantage in that she's better able to access and identify her feelings. I read an interesting article last summer in Reader's Digest and I was lucky enough to find it online.

Very cool article, and well worth reading in it's entirety.... Here


This excerpt rang a bell with me. I have the ability to change emotional gears in a way that my husband doesn't. His first responding emotion when faced with conflict is likely to be Anger. That's not his fault...it's the way God made him. If I give him some time, he can generally manage to identify his feelings and then put them into well-considered words. It's not until after that happens that we can deal effectively with whatever's going on though.

Your wife doesn't have this information. So it's up to you. If YOU realize that sometimes you need to take a breather, you can give yourself time to catch up with your feelings. So, don't be afraid to take a 'time-out' when you need one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I had a good night with the girls, felt down when my wife called she was lost and wanted me to help her by looking up the directions on internet. She was very frustrated and I walked her through her naviation problems... I got hurt when I didn't get a thanks.

I know its normal when a spouse is so distant to the other that simple things like acknowledging things that are not normally done but are is missed.... That is one of the big things I have always missed from her is that I work 60 hours a week for the things we have and I come home and still help her out around the house..... I am not trying to be pretentious I know there are a lot of wifes and mother's that put in as many hours a day as husband's but she has never... she does things but she also has a LOT of break time.

So I am not depressed as much as I am building resentment and tired of being delayed and held off.... She knows that we are now going financially in the whole and the option of letting move into the apartment attached to the house has been out there.... but she has still delayed in making that decision...

She had the girls last weekend for memorial day and earlier in the week we had a argument about custody and needing to follow our guidelines, so I was suppose to be with the girls this weekend but I found out last night they have different plans... so I felt bad, told her but am flexiable and will see them monday.

Today (saturday) I was at work trying to catch up on all the things I haven't done and she called me up.... She gave me this long list of things need for the horses and I said are you wanting me to do them today? Well she is suppose to be responsible for the horses since I am not there, but they haven't been taken care of since I left, besides the basic feeding.... She hasn't gotten any hay for them, and one of them is getting skinny.... Anyways I left work drove an hour to the house, went and got the feed and stuff that she asked for... went into the house did some laundry, cleaned up the dish's on the table from their breakfast (kids fixed it) and vacuumed OUR bedroom and made OUR bed... stuff I normally do when I am there.

So she called me a bit ago - and thanked me for each thing I had done and we talked a bit. All 3 daughters are in 4H and she is a co-leader, lately I have been doing 4H stuff in her absence... I made the comment if we got things back together I would love to do 4H as a family and she agreed thought it would be a bonding and building experience...

So that really makes my day.... the things that still bother me are our finances and the fact she has not looked for a job.... She does have a phone interview for the radio gig on monday, but I think she is a long shot and I know its going to kill her if she doesn't get it.... she is the type to put all her hopes and dreams into something like this and will get down if it doesn't happen.

I so much want to be there for her either way.

Viking, take what thanks and admiration you can get for now and don't worry about what is lacking because the rewards in this program are all at the back end. It’s not time yet. Hold that resentment at bay using whatever means you have. Go to the gym and pound the body bag into insensibility or something. Work off the frustration there, so you have more patience elsewhere in your life.

Have you seen the attorney yet about starting things moving to get back in the home? You can't be there for her if/when the radio job falls through if you're not there.

I have to disagree with you in one thing. I think you are getting your message across to her, or she wouldn't be giving out tidbits like "mommy and daddy might be getting back together," or speaking of "bonding experiences." You must keep on your guard though. They could also be ploys to lull you into over confidence while she cultivates a relationship with OM#3, or whatever number she's up to.

I think you can increase the pressure on her to make her see you’re an indispensable part of her life. When the request came about the horses, I know you couldn’t TELL her she was supposed to take care of them. But…you could have pointed it out to her by saying something like, “I didn't realize you hadn’t had time to get around to them.” I think that would do the job. She knew the horses needed attention or she wouldn’t have asked you, and she knew (even if it was deep down) it was something she should have been doing. It would be a subtle way of letting her know she needs you for still one more thing.

Also, if you hadn’t cleared up the breakfast dishes and done the cleaning, that would have been another subtle reminder of what your absence means. Perhaps you could have said, “I recognize you feel you must have some independence right now so I didn’t intrude by doing (whatever).” Do the things necessary for your children’s health but leave the details to her. See where I’m headed with that?

With you working hard on getting back into the home by legal means, it might seem such opportunities are going to be limited in the future. I don’t think so. I believe you can come up with a zillion little hints you can drop now and in the future. What do you think?

All of the things lacking in her contributions to the family are things that need to be resolved. I’m urging you to note them, journal them (you’re still doing that, right?), but set them aside as much as you can until couples counseling is something she’s participating in voluntarily and without reservation. It’ll be a while, but I think all these issues have resolutions that will spread the load more evenly between the two of you.

Hang in there, Viking. Expect there to be days when WW is petulant and unresponsive because she still will be. There are times though, when she’s peeking out from behind that alien who trolls for other men and those times seem to be increasing. Take hope but be vigilant.

I am getting into those percarious situations where the person I use to love now hate that I want to love again is talking to me... I don't want to get into a trap of talking R.

but that is all I want to talk about with her.

I am good conversationalist with everyone but her how do I restart having chats with her without being so nervous

Have your topics ready before you're ever near her. Start with the weather if you have to, then tough it out like that briefing you had to give to the old man that time. You got through that. You can get through a conversation with your WW.

So late yesterday my wife called and talked briefly and she told me thank you for the things I had done for her yesterday. besides taking care of what she asked I did things around the house... well she was having her girlfriends over last night they do this girls night where they spend the night... well our house it probably the best place for it right now because I am not there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> anyways.... after the call I sent her this txt I think it was okay?

"Thank You for the recoganizion earlier for the things I did around the house, it means a lot to me coming from you. Its something I have always wanted and needed.

Hope to talk to you later <me>"

So she is usually really tired after staying up most of the night with her girlfriends so I offered to come out in the afternoon and get teh girls and take them to the pool so she could rest.... she also has a meeting sunday night that she needs me to watch the girls...

Question - my wife in the past has complained - made comments like that all I think of her is a piece of meat and all I want from her is sex. Last time we separated (in-house) she was the one that initated first SF because she wanted it..... Now I am starving for SF but don't want to miscommunicate that we are friends with benefits type thing.... Do I politely refuse any advance or offer? or see it as meeting an EN? for both of us <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She did ask me what I was doing yesterday afternoon, I said a friend of mine and I were going to look at apartments, she how I thought he had a house, I said he did - we're looking for me" No more conversation about it after that.

Unless there are concerns about STDs with an active sexual affair underfoot, I wouldn't think that SF should be necessarily avoided. It's an EN, and in Plan A.... you're identifying and fulfilling your partner's ENs, right?

Your best bet is probably to follow her lead. There is a history of misunderstanding and miscommunication as witnessed by the "piece of meat" comment. (Lot's of women go through that you know. The female libido is more fluid than static, and most women will have fluxuations in it over the course of her lifetime. Mismatched libido is a common enough problem in alot of marriages, so I hope you haven't internalized those kind of comments.)

I haven't internalized them I am just being aware of her feelings and needs, I find my wife very beautiful and very sexy but I don't want her to think that is where I am at... just about the physical.

I would rather lay in bed holding her than anything else right now.

I am going over later to take the kids out.

Follow her lead regarding SF for now.

Why are you looking for an apartment or even telling her you are? That sends the wrong signal.

ON another note....

I went to MC on Thursday without wife and we talked about getting back into the house she advised against it strongly, she said I might be right, justified and legally capable but she thought that it would destroy any short or long term chances for us. Now I have heard very MB like comments from our MC and she is pro marriage and she thinks ours can be saved, but she strongly advised against it....

She is wanting to see my wife in IC starting this week, she wants to know what my W thinks and what is causing her current actions - I don't think its all me and I think that is what MC thinks.

I asked about how then I handle our financial problems - caused by my W's need for space but lack of committment on searching out a real job....

She said that is upto me, if I can live like I am or need an apartment that is my decision, she said I need to discuss it with W so she knows why I am doing it, then let my wife make her own decision's.. like is she willing to pay part of the mortgage? Does she want me to move back in with pre-stated boundaries (no dating, no acting single)

So I will have to wait and see how things go this week, I have a feeling that by the end of this week I will have a lot better understanding of what my W intentions are, either way

Okay. I wish you all the luck in the world in saving your marriage.

Oh I wasn't saying that I am following her perscription for moving back in the house.... what I am thinking is that my wifes recent attitude would make me believe that she would be asking to move back in with boundaries in place....

LH remember I said June 15 would be my deadline before executing anything... I also have to wait for money to get the lawyer paid.... so I am not able to more that talk about what I am doing and we know that is point less.

I should have the patience to wait another week and half to see if things change with us... Again their is no active conversations with OM's and she appears to be heading out of the fog, don't want to push her back in

Okay, I see. I thought I needed to get out of the way. If not, well, patience is a virtue, according to the Good Book and I should remember that. If she's stopped trolling for new men, that's the equivalent of no contact in a standard situation. Withdrawal would be minimal because the emotional involvement was cut off before it grew too intense, and then OM quickly and decisively cut off contact completely. All good things.

Her recent offerings ("Mommy and Daddy might be getting back together," and the talk about the future) are encouraging. I'd be very cautious in your optimism though. She could just as quickly turn back into a total alien. It's happened before. Baby steps, right? I'll remember in the future.

I'm sure it won't surprise you that I agree with your MC. I've already told you that I think you could 'win the battle but lose the war' by forcing the issue.

Take that with whatever grain of salt you like though. Speaking only for myself... I'm not afraid of taking emotional risks anymore. I've only enjoyed success when I've been willing to take a leap of faith. The bottom line is that I've been knocked down before, and I survived it. Pain sucks. But you can't be afraid of it either. There's no such thing as a safe place, and none of us get out of here alive afterall... so why not climb out on the limb? If it breaks, hey... I'll get up, dust myself off, and go again! Why not? I've got faith in me, and I've got faith that God has His purpose for me. I don't need more than that.

Have you ever heard a song called, When I Get Where I'm Goin' by Brad Paisley and Dolly Parton? The chorus of it says:
"Yeah...when I get where I'm going
There'll be only happy tears.
I will shed the sins and struggles
I have carried all these years.
And I'll leave my heart wide open
I will love and have no fear.
Yeah...when I get where I'm going.
Don't cry for me down here.

I've heard that song dozens of times, but I'm still apt to cry when I hear the words, "I will love and have no fear". Because I realized a while back that I had gotten in the habit of loving with fear.

Like alot of folks, I was a self-preservationist in that respect. We've all been hurt before, so it's only natural I suppose. But what do we really get out of protecting our hearts? We still end up getting hurt occasionally no matter how vigilent we are, don't we? So what is it that should keep us from jumping off into the deep end and committing ourselves at 100%? And more importantly, how can we win love without emotional risk?

Anyway, it works for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Your wife needs to come up with a viable solution for this. If she doesn't, she's going to eventually force you to separate your financial future from hers. There's no way around that. At some point you'll have to file for legal separation in order to keep from incurring her debt and going into bankruptcy. She's going to lose her home at this rate, and there's not 'thing one' you'll be able to do to stop it once the bills have piled too high.

Put the ball in her court. If she doesn't want to have you move back home, she needs to come up with a solution that will keep you both solvent. The choice will be out of YOUR hands if things keep up on the path they're on. She needs to know that it's straight up reality, and "Mr. Reality don't play". (I saw that phrase on another post today. It works for ALL SORTS of occasions. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

p.s. There are some pretty good threads on the other site having to do with mismatched libido. Leave me a post in the 'Marriage' section and I'll be glad to point them out to you.

So yesterday while I was at the pool with the girls the wife called me and told me that she was looking at a bed and breakfast at the coast for us - per our MC suggestion and I knows its a MB suggestion too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

W had a meeting last night so I stayed with the girls, she got home at 8:30 and I left at midnight.

So she said divorce isn't really an option for us, because of the girls and finances. I told her I only wanted a marriage and didn't think us staying together unhappily would work for either of us.

We talked about relationship things in general and what we thought a good relationship would have in it. We talked nicely to each other and I was appreciative when she told me that I had said something she didn't like or like how I said it....

So I am not jumping up and down with joy but I do have a smile

I had my first real IC today
SHe has her's tomorrow and then we both have MC after that... then I asked her to go to lunch, she said yes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great. She's realized she has a strong EN for financial security and she understands the children deserve a full-time father. What she left unsaid was all the things you do for her but I expect she's beginning to understand how much you're doing to meet ALL of her needs. I think it would be a big milestone if she asks you to come home before your deadline.

How did the IC go today?

IC was really introduction so it was just catching him up on what I have done in my life and how I see things in the relationship.

Now - my wife has been making sure she is thanking me for the things I am doing and I am thanking her for the things she is donig and we are talking more... so I am seeing some light at the end of the tunnel.

Awesome!

Where are you, Viking? Don't go dark on us, pardner.

Its been almost a month since I posted......

Here is the highlevel, my FW started to come out of the fog and started to at least think about the family. She dropped the OM#1 and OM#2 and we started a slow process of recommunicating and started to talk about becoming friends again.

Last week we were planning a night out to a bed and breakfast to get away to talk and on thursday she got an email from HIM

Who is he? before our marriage she was in Air Force Tech school had a relationship with a guy, 5 months they were engaged, he went home on leave and got married. Came back wanted him to still be his girlfriend... wife left the base soon there after, then we got married.

There was an incident seven years ago with her and him but that got squashed, but now in the fragile state she is in and the emotional rollercoaster she had been through.... it went from heaven to ****** in 3 seconds. She are now back to divorce.

We are filling separation paperwork tomorrow.... here is the kicker, we are doing the separartion ourselves which is okay in NC....

She has given me everything I asked for, I keep my stock my assests I take on martial debt but I only pay CS and a stipen of alimony... I get away with murder in this deal. She is going to be hurting sooooo bad.

I even asked her mom to tell her to have a lawyer review it. I have asked her to have a lawyer review, she is so in the fog that this guy is the one and that she wants to be with him, but she wants the paperwork to show that we are separated legally before she proceeds with I don't know what.

The guy lives in New York, I asked her would she move there, she said yes and she would take the kids... so with that scenario playing in my head, I added a clause in our separation paperwork that makes it impossible for her to move the kids with out my approval.... I had my document review by a laywer today... its a lot tighter that it should be but I am not taking a chance...

lawyer said one problem is that a lot of separation agreemenets even though legal are vague so they can be called into court for interruptation, well its now pretty air tight, both parents need to approve an out of state move.

I put in language that protects almost every aspect of my assets and really leaves her with nothing.

She is willing to sign it, she is willing to go without a lawyer review to sign this contract legally binding document

I am glad your separation agreement was reviewed by a lawyer.

Let WW go and proceed to Plan B ASAP. As of now, you don't need someone like WW that can change so quick on you.

Thanks for the update.

as I told my wife I have been in a 12 year rebound relationship with her, she says she never stopped loving him and we have 3 beautiful daughter's.

She did try to call an attorney but they were in the wrong county so she told calling, how lazy is that. Your future is on the line she could have taken me for a WHOLE lot more, I was willing, but seeing her actions of late.... ha

We have to get our house sold then we will be free and clear of each other.

So I found out tonight from my 11 year old that my wife and her true love plan to spend the 4th together.

I just told my wife that I would send his wife a letter explaining their plans - if they are truly divorced and alright to date others it wont matter to the OM.

Can I still save my marriage?

We are legally separated, she is deep deep deep into the fog, she wants me to place nice.

I want my family back....

How do I proceed?

I could do plan A but I think its too late..

So my wife and I are officially legally separated - about 3 days. tomorrow she leaves for 3 days to be with her OM - True Love.

For the last 10 days they have talked 2-3 hours a day, racking up some 2700 minutes of cell usage in that time.

I have lost the numbing gut wrenching feeling that I have for the past 4 monhts. I am thinking of doing a 180 plan on her.

Our house in for sale, so I am working on getting it ready to show.

I haven't talked to her today, we still live in the same house, but I really don't want to talk to her, because I do throw myself out there and she keeps rejecting me and getting mad.

She hasn't seen this guy in 12 years, but he has such a pull on her, its not physical either that what worries me, its all emotions and she believes he is the one, but I don't think she has looked past this weekend.... he lives in NY, with 2 kids and a job. We live in NC with 3 kids and her family just moved down here....

She was in such a rush to get the paperwork done so she would feel justified or legal to go with him that she bascially lost all her access to my assets, I keep all my stock and retirement and I pay down the family debt - after we sell the house.

I make over 200K and she will see CS and 800$ a month... she doesn't work and fantasizes about all these career's she could do but she likes going to the pool and hanging out... so she is in for a rude awakening

I sent the OM STBXW a letter just clarifying what was going on and if she would like to enlighten me or my wife on OM character for the past 12 years please give us a call.

I gave her a plan b letter tonight... she says she is now going to the lake with her girlfriend instead of the beach with the OM... will have to wait and see.

I talked to our neighbor who is our old pastor and he gave it to me straight and then straight to her.

I called her mom and told her to buck up and question her daughter's actions even if we divorce she needs to act like a mother and not bring this into our kids lives right now.

right on with the mom thing i dont know y mothers want to turn a blind eye

Just had to say something so it doesn't boil inside... wife is on the way to the airport to pick up the OM so they can send the next couple of days together -reconnecting.

Its almost like watching a movie play out, I need to really stop and focus on something else..... I have 3 wonderful daughter's that I love and cherish

Hey if I find out what hotel they are staying at do I send them a card or something just to say hey caught you or do I leave it alone

So I tracked my wifes card to and from the airport, supposedly she went to the lake with a family of her best friend.... BF is at home and my wifes car is there. I am waiting to see if my wife calls our 3 kids tonight... they are missing mommy.

Now I don't know if she is there or if she is the one that left at the airport and is now in NY with OM???

So I don't know if she went to the beach... if she is in new york or what but she is not her and she is lieing to my kids... I don't care about me we are separated and I need to work on myself it just aggervates me