Okay I sent her the LJ post from the other thread and she ate me up.. how dare I and all she could focus is that I keep saying there were OM's... she didn't sleep with anyone so I am still the diseased on... that is what she is calling me now the diseased one. I pointed out the 5 guys she spoke to in the past 9 months but that doesn't matter because she didn't sleep with them...

I guess what LH was sayinn in the other thread is that I just need to wait and get my lawyer to talk to her and get the ball rolling on that front. stay way from the alien talk

Well, you tried to reach out to her and found out she's not ready for that yet. Live and learn, huh? It's done; put it behind you.

Yeah, stay away from the alien talk. Man, get used to her not being receptive to any overtures from you about the taboo subject of anything to do with relationship, okay? Remember? She’s not your wife. It’s an alien standing there, spewing bile because they can’t absorb affection, honesty, or logic.

She clearly doesn't understand the concept of an EA, does she? Do you have the book Not "Just Friends by Shirley P. Glass, PhD.? If not, get a copy and go through it. It'll give you an insight into what she's doing, why she's doing it, and how to respond.

I’m concerned about the number of men you’ve now identified. You’ve reevaluated things and can now see five men as having had inappropriately close relationships with her? Melody used the word trolling in one of her posts to you. I think that smart lady was right on the money. She may not have actually engaged in a sexual adultery yet, but she sure is heading in that direction, isn’t she?

Did she have any time left over to talk about you coming back home? No? If not, I'm not terribly surprised. If it's not on her terms, it's an uncomfortable subject and she’ll delay as long as she can. I do think you’ll have to be patient until your deadline has passed and then invoke the legal option. Like Melody said on your other thread, legal actions have a strong effect on anyone, but particularly to those living in a fantasy. Documents from a cold, harsh, real life court of law deliver a shock far beyond their actual content.

I forgot to ask. How much of LJ's post did you print out for your WW? Specifically, does WW now know you are coming to this website now? That can be a problem because she would be able to log in herself to see your strategy in all this.

okay I decide to pick the girls up from school and take them to the pool.... wife just paged me asked ask me if I WOULD like to stay for dinner?

I responded with I would love too,

but in my mind I am thinking what is going on is this a trap?

I was so angery at her earlier for what she said to me about being a disease, monstor, that she [email]f@$King[/email] hate me, wants nothing more to do with me, dispises me all that in a 17 minute phone call.... then she ask me for dinner.

she knows of "marriage builders" but I don't think she has the interesting in any snooping or anything that deals with me. I did send her LJ whole post unedited because I could imgaine changing anything in it

Trust your instincts, Viking. If it seems like a trap, it probably is in some fashion or another. The mood swings are typical though. Just ride with the punches, pardner.

If it begins to appear she is reading here on MB, it'll need to be addressed. For now, this needs to be just YOUR sanctuary.

Yeah, I agree with Longhorn on that. You and your wife have two separate agendas afterall. You want to be together. She wants to be apart. Her kneejerk reaction is going to be opposition to anything that doesn't fit into her agenda. That's not too much different from how you might react to her 'divorce' agenda.

You can influence her thinking, Viking, but you can't do her thinking for her. It's a 'chipping away' process because it takes time to rebuild trust. There are more obstacles actually in "rebuilding" trust than there were in developing it in the first place.

Ultimately, she has to make the choice to be with you on her own. She has to WANT reconciliation at some point for there to be any kind of true emotional connection between you again. Baby steps are better than nothing though. Tonight it's "I-hate-you-lets-have-dinner". Tomorrow, who knows?

You can let go of some of the pressure you put on yourself when you realize that here's nothing you can do that's going to directly change her mind. She has to do that for herself. Not to say you won't keep "chipping away";).... But maybe you won't engage your expectations to the degree that you're feeling disappointed when she doesn't respond in the way you'd hoped.



p.s. You might give some thought to editing the really bad vents and whatnot out of your posts. If it was me.... I'd snoop. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Okay... I wasn't going to post today but too much has happened...

Dinner was like eating with the ice princesses.

She was cold and very nasty, I asked to help -NO!!!
I asked to get her something NO!!!!

Then we sat down for dinner and the girls almost started to dig in and I said aren't we forgetting something... they said oh and put their forks down to do a prayer... that is when Wife got up to go to the kitchen, the girls said they would wait for her and she pretty harass tone said NO go ahead and do it... so we did without her.

The girls are 11/8/6 like any parent you want them to have good manner's so I watched for a second and saw all 3 reverting back to stuff we had worked on, elbows on tables, fork holding, chewing with their mouths open... She was doing nothing about it - so I started calmly correcting them.

Got done with dinner did all the dishs and she still sat their watching TV.... so I excused myself and left.

It really effected me to how she treated the girls I was upset and not very happy.... I had convinced myself to go into deep dark Plan B with legal action pending...

Now this morning I talked to the girls like I normally do.. She has been calling me every morning just to chat about her.... this morning she called i didn't answer. call several times didn't answer... She finally left a voicemail and said its not right when she needs to get ahold of me about the girls...

So I called her back... said what is wrong with the girls??
I had asked the girls to ask her to see if it was alright for me to pick them up today. She reminded me that we need to talk about stuff like that if we are doing custody...I said fine we will get the custody thing all worked out.

She did apologoize for how she acted yesterday... I asked her if she apologized to the girls? She asked why and I told her about the dinner prayer..

Then I said if that is it then bye.... hangup

She calls me back and starts to talk and almost started int o a rant... I asked her to stop and I couldn't take the berating anymore.... I asked her not to call me anymore... I said I was DONE with the berating... then she immedately repeated so your done do your done so your done... then hung up.....

I got to work - didn't really feel anything - kinda felt normal... she called me one more time... I answered....

We talked for another 30 minutes she broke a lot of walls down - but still mostly fog talk. I think she realized that I am serious about taking things to the next level - with out having to state it.

So make a longer story long.... She said she would go to the concert June 16 that she originally said she wouldn't
She said she would still go to MC with me.

She told me how a lot of things in the past have hurt her, was very specific this time unlike the general statements I usually get.

Changed from the past 11 years were horrible and unbarrable to the past 2 years... even though a lot of hurt I caused has been over the 11 years.

Now I know this could be a delaying tactic and it could be and by no means do I think we are in recovery but she really got a new attitude.... lets see if it stays.

I think you're entirely correct to be cautious when you see isolated moments of lucid thought amidst so much foggy bile. It’s a sign, though, pressure on her adulterous attitudes is beginning to work. Your WW has a number of emotional needs she doesn’t even realize she has, but last night and today show she’s beginning to get an inkling.

Good work. The thing is, though, if she hasn’t addressed you getting back into the home, then everything else is just talk. Words, as the old saying goes, are cheap and actions are the critical steps. If she doesn’t commit to you returning to the home very soon, then you’ll know she’s just using 16 June as a ploy to deflect you. I’m saying she needs to commit “today” (whenever today is) for you to move back in “day after tomorrow.” It has to be a definitive commitment for it to mean anything. Stay with the plan, Viking.

okay here is the update....

I am so tired - such a doormat feeling

Yeah I gave her another extention this morning on moving in and it all felt so wonderful - she still saying there is a lot of pain and hurt that she has to work through and this and that....

So after I got off with her and got onto work, I checked my daily keylogger email from her PC..... last night after I left she went onto cupid.com and was searching Divorced Men in Raleigh.... what a freaking troll

I agree only after I gave her the cold shoulder this morning did she turn on.... she is out trolling for men now on the internet what a immature child she is.

I text paged her today saying i found on her computer a hyperlink to cupid.com and the link took me to the divorced men raleigh page... didn't give up the source of the interl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyways I just said I don't need to talk about it but at the end I said I guess things never change. She had me so convienced that her talking to men was innocent but it was the guys always talking about sex or hooking up or whatever. She is such the manipulator

Now on top of that her dream job is starting summer schedule and she was hoping to work some of the camps which would get her 20-30 hours a week... schedule is out she works 2 days a week 6 hours total.... She still says oh I can still hope for the radio job.... or maybe modeling?

So what I hear her saying is well let me keep the paycheck around for another month (that would be me) while I see if anything else pans out. How selfish can one person be.

What is sad is this how she has always been from day 1 not just since the fog.

I really need to say I am not coming back until your ready for reconciliation and to work on the marriage not to have me around until your ready to work on the marriage....

While she ponder's that I am going to the lawyer and start the process of getting the girls and selling the house, its way to big and we can't afford it and its what she wanted not me.

Well it sounds like its going to be another fun and interesting week

So you're not going to try to get back in the home?

I am not with out boundaries and a committment to the marriage. I am getting close to the end of my string with the berating and the manipulation and all the things she has accused me of for so long... I will get back into the house via either her committment or legal order, but not if I have to wait another month to ask.... she is just feeding me a line crap.

Okay, I see now. Press on with getting back into the house. Your alien WW will try to negotiate with her last breathe, but it means nothing. The alien is fighting to keep the support of her marriage around her but to act like she's single. As you say, it's not worth waiting another day to see what happens, much less a month.

LH what concerns me as the longer this draws out the more I see my wife as who she has always been and really is.

I thought I was marrying up she was so beautiful and thought she had her act together what I am finally coming to grips with is her shallowness and her selfishness.

She has tried to manipulate me around every corner, by playing the victim, by threatening me, so many ways... and now I am for once standing up... you know I loved ladyjanes post so much because it was my post it was how I felt the paycheck the lack of affection and attention... I know my decision to sleep with a prostitute was mine and it was wrong, but she had blame in this as well and she can't or wont see it and take her responsibility.... this is more than just an alien, what if their is no alien?

What if I was the alien and the fog and alien are lifting out of me? Its a lot to think about.

Pardner, she has a part in all the troubles of the marriage. There's no doubting that. Your adultery with the prostitute is yours and you need to own it, but the feelings she's allowed to proliferate within the marriage contributed to a climate where the adultery was possible. Your responsibility to her adultery is the same. To wit, you might not have done everything you could have to prevent your wife from choosing that option as a solution to perceived problems. All that is a matter for a TON of couples counseling when you get this trolling issue resolved.

If you can, Viking, concentrate on getting back into the home and establishing your boundaries for the immediate future. I know it’s too easy to start dissecting your entire marriage at a time like this, but you have to remember, along with the bad times, there’ve also been good ones. Your wife has given you three beautiful little girls, you know. That incredible gift will mean more to you than you can imagine in the years to come. I know you’re depressed right now, Viking, but don’t let it consume you. Get back into the home where you can work on yourself and her too before making any decisions, okay?

Your LoveBank hasn't had any deposits for a long while, Viking. It's no wonder you're getting tired. It's a struggle to keep loving someone when they're not reciprocating your efforts.

You're the only guy who can decide when 'enough is enough'. But I think there's still some hope left if you want to stay in it for a little while longer. It's entirely up to you though.

I can't help but think there must've been some reason way back when that you decided she was 'the one'. And I'll tell you from experience that my first thoughts when my husband became "wayward" were much the same as yours. I felt like I'd married a complete stranger.

But it wasn't true. He was just going through some crazy stuff, and it was making him behave in CRAZY ways. He's still my guy. He was just whacked out.

I dunno. I'm a 'glass is half-full' kind of person. Your wife seems to be ALL OVER THE PLACE in alot of ways. It's almost like she's hovering between the State of Withdrawal and the State of Conflict. (????)

When you review the information in The Three States of Marriage, the way back to Intimacy seems to be through Conflict. Not to say that you should start fighting with her all the time, but maybe you can expect her to turn up the noise a bit as she experiences the transition. The fact that she's finding you to be annoying at least means she's aware of your presence. See... glass half-full. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

From How One Spouse Can Lead the Other Back to Intimacy: Here



The whole 'Three States' article is one of my favorites and well worth reading again from time to time.

Your wife is naturally going to be oppositional with you right now. Her agenda is different from yours. So, I think you can EXPECT adversarial behavior from her. That shouldn't be something that surprises you at this point. She's going to say and do things that p*ss you off. She wants you to give up and LEAVE afterall.

But you don't have to necessarily allow her barbs to hit the mark. It takes strong emotional control to prevent yourself from internalizing someone else's bad behavior. I think the natural instinct for all of us it to feel bad and react with anger when someone's trying to 'get our goat'.

But if you recognize the behavior for what it is... there's no point in getting mad. You're dealing with a REALLY frustrated individual who is having a difficult time getting what she thinks she wants. You don't have to give in to the temptation to respond to her moods. You can let her carry her own bags on that.

Instead, you have a nice dinner with the kids and show your wife a pleasant demeanor. You don't absorb her temper like a sponge. It only makes YOU feel bad too when you do that. She's feeling her own emotions. She doesn't need YOU feeling them with her.

What I'm suggesting to you is different from 'absorbing and then keeping your reaction under wraps'. What I'm saying is that you don't absorb it AT ALL. You just refuse delivery on somebody else's bad mood.

It's kind of like when your kids are misbehaving. You don't adopt whatever emotion they're feeling when they're having a tantrum. You stay cool and set the example, because if you allow yourself to absorb their strong emotion when they're out-of-control.... it escalates the situation.

This isn't a whole lot different really. She's not getting what she wants, and she's acting out because of it.

But I've got to say.... it would be just as easy for her to shoo you away. 'Withdrawal' is a more peaceful place, right? So, on some level she must WANT you to remain engaged. The glass is half-full again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

One other thought for you. Choose wisely when you choose your battles. It's important to "correct" the kids when they misbehave... but you don't want to come off like a 'stiff'. Good parenting is an attractive quality, but when you can also show that you're a fun, easy-going guy too... it's even MORE attractive. Besides that, you don't want to 'show her up'. That'll just give her another excuse to be mad.

And you surely don't want to try to "correct" her bad manners. That's like asking for a fight. She's already oppositional. She's gonna dive on that like a duck on a junebug. In her current mood... you're just proving her point for her when you give her excuses to be mad.

You know, not everything out of her mouth is "fog". There's some wheat mixed in with the chaff. It's a tough thing to do in separating the two out. But well worth the effort. So in your daily interactions, it will help you to be mindful of her complaints from back before things got this bad. Those issues are still festering, so if any of your behaviors bring them back to the forefront of her mind, or if she feels they are not yet being addressed....she gets to feel justified in wanting out.

You want your interactions to be positive ones as often as possible. Positive interaction leaves her wanting MORE. Now, I'm not saying that you should 'roll over' on the big issues. But hey, you don't want to let a molehill turn into a mountain either.

Wife's bad manners at dinner = Molehill. Just as long as you choose to leave it that way. Wife looking up divorcees on cupid.com = CRAZY BEHAVIOR. Doesn't necessarily mean that she's unveiling her true subterranean character.

Don't forget that YOU are firmly entrenched in the State of Conflict. Your Taker will be making demands of you. It wants fair treatment in a situation in which "fair treatment" is a long-shot at best. You'll have to resist your Taker's influence if you want to hang in there.

I don't know what to tell you about the legal stuff. That'll be for you to decide. But I don't think you have to leave Plan A to do whatever it is that you need to do. In theory, you can introduce REALITY to the situation and do it pleasantly, without slipping into the State of Withdrawal. At that point, you're just a guy doing what he needs to do, afterall.

Last night I got the girls to bed and waited for the wife to get home. I had paged her earlier about finding the cupid.com webpage and I told her I didn't need to talk about it but I put it out there that I knew and said I guess things don't change.

When she got home she actually engaged me and asked me why I didn't just ask her what was up. She gave me some line maybe true maybe not about why she did it. She tried to put a very comical spin on it... but she wasn't nasty. We talked for about an hour some relationship stuff....

We were talking about the things I was doing before the separation, making her tea, meeting her for breakfast instead of rushing off to work, going to bed with her instead of staying up, etc etc.... She said well it doesn't coung if it doesn't come from the heart and I was just acting to make her feel better.... I stopped her right there and told her that SHE can't not tell me what is in my heart. How I feel is mine, she only can know what is in her's. I spoke firmly right then but the rest of the time was calm and straightforward.

She spoke in a way that she hasn't spoken to me in a while... but I have a fear that its because life is putting pressure on her... but I don't know yet will have to wait and see

Life is putting pressure on the alien fog and the fantasy, Viking. That's what the program is all about. That you see signs of your wife peeking out from behind the alien is good. Keep it up.

Well I my wife seems to be more upbeast about herself and I guess yesterday she was on a field trip and talked to some other mothers that were previously separated one for 1 year the other for 3 years and they have both reconciled....

What is getting me down is that its all about HER healing from my adultery their is no recognizion of mutal responsibility. Which I have the greater burden to bear but its all about her there is no us and there is no ownership of her actions.

I am not going to ask her about moving back in anymore, I really don't want to. I want to recover but moving back in would be a win for her and she would continue to feel like the victim in all this.

So I am going to start looking for an apartment this weekend, and plan on moving in in July so I can have the girls over and will work with my lawyer about getting the girls during the school year and she can have them on the weekends.

She still has not looked for ANY work.

THey did however call her back for the 2nd round of interviews for the radio job.. which is stoking her esteem and I am supporting her in that, but its all about her.... I wonder if she got the job our reconcillation would be off... I doubt it because she would need someone to watch the girls.... which we don't need to be married to here to do that.

You can't set the pace on her healing, any more than she can set a timetable for yours. You BOTH have wounds, and you're BOTH in pain. It takes time to resolve all that.

You can s-t-r-e-t-c-h for time by not allowing your emotional focus to be on your wife all the time. You're in a crappy situation, but you know....you'll never get one minute of your life back after it's spent. Try to find some time enjoying a little bit of your day each day. You don't wan't to ignore the problems, of course. But you don't want to be more of a blowtorch than a candle in terms of emotional intensity either. Reconcilliation is a marathon, not a sprint. You can't let yourself get all burnt out like this.

Have you had a depression screening with your doctor, btw? You're in a tough position, and people can become situationally depressed. Lots of folks respond well to treatment with ADs during marital crisis, and it helps them to stay on a more even keel. I'm not saying you are, or you aren't. It's just something to keep in mind.