viking, how about this? Instead of surrendering before you even try to save your marriage, why not go to your home and see if you can get back in your house? She may not even call the police at all. I know its easier to just surrender and lie down, but it might be helpful for your marriage to at least TRY to go home.

Then if that doesn't work, get an attorney to get back in. You need to get an attorney NOW ANYWAY to get yourself financially protected from her, since you have not done anything AT ALL. Much less blocked the OM from coming into your own home. All of this must be done before you start focusing on these bizarre appeasement strategies.

I see many mistakes being made here that are going to cost you your marriage if you don't get to work. Sitting back and playing Mr Nice Guy while she destroys your family is only going to result in her SUCCESS.

And it will result in a NEW MAN moving in and taking your place and fathering your children. That is already happening and will continue to happen until you get to work. Your children desperately need you there to protect them being a FATHER instead of killing yourself trying to APPEASE a wayward mother.

viking, the carrot and stick approach includes using the STICK, which is sorely missing here. Without the STICK, you are not doing Plan A, you are simply AIDING AND ABETTING in the destruction of your family. PLAN A DOES NOT STAND FOR APPEASEMENT.

I have to disagree with LadyJane about not trying to bust up this affair. Your past does not disqualify you from working this program properly. Your past does not entitle her to have an affair and destroy your marriage and your children' lives. Your past has nothing to do with how you should treat her affair TODAY!

Just because you visited a prostitute in the past has no bearing on your current situation, anymore than does her past affair. It doesn't justify what she is doing and should have nothing to do with your actions today. It is not a lifelong scarlet letter that disqualifies you from saving your marriage and protecting your children.

viking, how about getting to work?

viking, I get the sense that you are seeking an easier, softer way that avoids any and all conflict. I want to assure you that the easier softer way will avail you NOTHING. Your past infidelity has nothing to do with how you treat your W's affair. That means that all of the MB principles should be brought to bear in full force to save your marriage.

That means that exposure needs be done along with documenting your wifes' affair. That means that you SNOOP, gather information and discuss it with her just like in any affair. It also means that you take a firm stand and do not allow her to drag your children into her sleazy affair. The OM should NEVER be in your home or anywhere NEAR your children. But this is even more reason why you need to be home; in order to protect your children from your W's affair.

Please read this again, and take note of ALL the elements, not just the EASY, PANSY ones; but ALL OF THEM:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

It's normal for the WS to mentally "rewrite" the marital history. They need to justify in their own minds that their behavior is okay so they can feel good about themselves and what they're doing.

This isn't something for you to worry overmuch about because it's not something you can effectively change right now. She's not going to respond to THE TRUTH as long as she's wearing her rose-colored glasses. If you get into recovery, that's a different story. She'll be more open to your POV then.


While it's true that the children are going to miss summer camp this year due to you wife's actions, and it's equally true that she needs to be accountable for causing that.... I'm wondering if you can turn this into a negotiation tool. (????)

Sometimes it's all a matter of presentation. What if you were to say to her, "Honey, I'd like to get together and talk about our financial situation. I'm concerned that the girls aren't going to be able to do any of their usual summer activities, and I don't want them to have to pay for our mistakes."

Then, after you get to the negotiation table, you could present the idea of moving into the on-premises apartment again. It's not the same as moving back into the house.... but it puts you home where you can keep an eye on things.

And if she STILL won't allow it, the option to force the issue through the courts is always available to you.

You REALLY DO need to see an attorney, Viking. Opinions from advice boards can get you started thinking about things in new ways....but it's no substitute for professional guidance.

I believe in North Carolina it's possible to sue the OM for 'alienation of affection'. While it might (or might not) be feasable to do so....the OM doesn't have to know that. The notion that YOU might be collecting a portion of his paycheck for the next 30 or so years might cool his ardor for your wife a bit.

And there's no substitute for being prepared with consequences for your wife's actions. Divorce changes the fiscal landscape. She might not be able to afford to keep the house when your assets are divided. She might have to work full-time outside the home in order to make ends meet. These are things that affect her decision making process, and it's possible that once she factors all the potential ramifications into the equation, she might become motivated to reconsider working on the marriage.

Another good reason to see an attorney is to protect yourself from making any mistakes that she can capitolize on. Probably the worst case-scenario if you were to take your things and just move back in...is that she might call the police and have you removed. If you were cooperative with the cops, that would most likely be the end of the incident. But....what if she went a step further and put a restraining order on you as we saw in the case of Good Father? That might not be the most probable scenario...but it bears consideration as a possibility.

And finally, when you're making a decision about seeing an attorney....keep this in mind. The money you spend on your lawyer in terms of investment potential can literally save you THOUSANDS of dollars. If your lawyer can keep you from making costly mistakes....it's a sound investment. There are quite a few that will give a free initial consult or only charge a minimal fee at your first appointment.

p.s. to MelodyLane. Please don't put words into my mouth. I have a right to my opinion....same as you afterall.

I think MB is a great program, but I also think there's a bit of nuance involved in saving marriages. There's an ebb and flow and a sense of timing to it that only the person involved intimately in his/her situation can truly grasp. That's my opinion.

The fact that I believe 'Rome wasn't built in a day', doesn't necessarily mean that I encourage Infidelity.

Ladyjane, you are telling him to scrub the girls bathroom on the SINKING TITANTIC. You are telling him to withhold livesaving techniques, at a time when he MOST NEEDS IT. WHICH IS BAD ADVICE. Scrubbing the girls bathroom might be cute advice but it is sure not helpful when the ship is going down!

The OM is in his home because he is OUT, his children are abandoned and his finances are being wrecked. He should be doing EVERYTHING to bust up this affair, yet you advise him to put away the stick when he most needs it. You advise him to "negotiate" with a crazy woman. You tell him he is not qualified to do everything to defend his marriage because of his past infidelity. You must be kidding me?

I realize you are NOT FAMILIAR with Marriage Builders [from the advice you give] but do this man a favor and let us help him save his marriage. Because this APPEASEMENT program you are laying on him will not do that. Plan A and B does not stand for APPEASEMENT and BUTT KISSING and will not save his marriage.

His wife is ****** bent on destroying his marriage and he should not be helping her in that endeavor, as he is now.

For example, he should not be "negotiating" with a crazy women when it comes to his finances and his children. He needs to PROTECT his finances and protect his children. PERIOD. He does not leave either to the mercy of an insane woman who is ****** bent on destroying his family. He needs to contact an attorney to get back into his house and get his finances PROTECTED FROM HER. You don't "negotiate" with someone who is ****** bent on DESTROYING YOU. That is the STICK of Plan A, LadyJane.

viking, you have some serious problems here that are not going to be resolved by tossing out one half of Plan A as LadyJane has suggested. Dr. Harley would tell you to get a hold of an attorney ASAP and get yourself protected. Get BACK in your house! Once you do that, then expose the affair and make it as uncomfortable as possible for the affairees.

And I will reiterate for viking my earlier comment:

"I have to disagree with LadyJane about not trying to bust up this affair. Your past does not disqualify you from working this program properly. Your past does not entitle her to have an affair and destroy your marriage and your children' lives. Your past has nothing to do with how you should treat her affair TODAY!"

Do not let anyone tell you that you should not defend your marriage from assault just because of your past infidelity.

To MelodyLane:

You know, I asked you....in what I considered to be a respectful manner...not to put words in my mouth. But instead of responding in kind, you chose to attack me in a way that I consider to be unwarranted.

That's your choice of course, but it says more about YOU than it ever will about me.

However, I'm happy to recuse myself from this discussion in deference to your apparent need to control this thread. Viking knows where to find me if he wants any further input.

Cheers.

LadyJane, I most certainly did not put words in your mouth. I am sorry you feel "attacked," but I feel strongly that this man should use ALL of the MB principles when he most needs them. Not just PART of them as you suggested because of his past sins.

I have no need to "control" this thread, but will respond when I see you giving a desperate newcomer very BAD ADVICE at a time when he most needs help.

Please I want to hear both sides, I have found great advice from both MJ and Landyjane, I have to find what works for me. And both of you giving me advice gives me more options

First, the OM is not in my house, my wife has agreed to keep all contact from him and my children. because the 3rd day after I had left, W, OM and my children and MIL all went to the park and went fishing, I called her on it and she agreed to keep him out of their lives.

Now, I am pretty sure, almost positive that their is no PA going on. She hasn't had the time and when she is not at home with the girls, I can track her cell phone and I know where she has been.

That being said she went to lunch with him yesterday.

I am taking the girls friday to a church function and she is going to "stay home" but will picke the girls up at 10pm when the function is over.... I am pretty sure she has plans to at least go see him and have dinner.

My W, does have morales and I think I would have to really push her over the edge (which I have come close too) to have her sleep with someone just for the sake of it.

I have asked her to sit down and talk about finances, since my first proposal for fair payment, is making it really hard on her. SHe had to go get gas money from her mother.

So I think a carrot I am going to use is to modify what I am going to pay here while she lives in the house to cover a bit more of her expenses.

Right now I keep referring to her and the OM as an Emotional Affair. Pisses her off.

I believe she is looking for time and space to decide to come back to me.

Since I really scared her and caused her to freak out by me coming to the house at night, I want not do anything to upset her for the next couple of weeks, doing a solid Plan A of making a warm home and someone she would want to be with.

Then around June 1, I will have to decide if I need to be strong and expose her OM to her friends - which are guys that keep asking her via email if I cheated and what I did to cause her to leave.... she never tells them the other side.

I have to say again I have been doing a lot for her for the past several months, domestic support, attention, affection, etc because that is what she said she was missing. But now none of that seems to have happened... I see why everyone says WS acts like an alien.....

I think what i will do is get ready for June 1, I will probably go to a lawyer layout what I want, more access to the kids, more financial security from her, move into the apartment to prepare the house for sale.... then have that waiting for June 1.

Yes NC has Alienation of Affection, I can take him to court with the information I have now and take a bit of his little money. That is one problem I have with the OM, he has nothing to loose, he doesn't make much. He has hit on other married women that are friends with his cousin. But right now he is captivating my wife with attention and nice words.

I would suggest seeing an attorney and getting yourself financially protected. You are essentially financing her affair right now, which is enabling her. She should not have access to your money or credit cards now. PLEASE get yourself financially protected. Negotiating with someone who is not trustworthy right, and only intends to HARM, will NOT protect you.


This is called ENABLING. You are HELPING her continue her affair by making things easy for her. You are contributing to your own demise.


Please do not change the English language to help her feel better about her bad behavior. That is ENABLING. She is having an affair, don't protect her from the consequences.


Let me assure you that she is only looking for "space" and "time" to carry on an affair. If she were interested in coming back, you would be together. Whenever an affairee says they need "space" it ALWAYS means they need SPACE to carry on their affair.

viking, I would implore you use all the tools here at Marriage Builders. I am sad that you have been misled into believing that you can APPEASE your way back into your marriage. YOU CAN NOT. Nor would the Marriage Builders program even advise as such. Plan A is USELESS without the stick because it only becomes a way to ENABLE the affair. As it is now, you are ENABLING the affair, to your detriment and the detriment of your children.

But I can see that my words are falling on deaf ears and you have chosen to take the path of least resistence. That path will avail you nothing. So, I will leave you in Ladyjane's hands since it seems she is most willing to encourage you on that path.

viking, the advice that I think would be most helpful in your situation is the MARRIAGE BUILDERS PRINCIPLES. That is what you should expect to hear when you come here. Never would that advice involve lopping off half of the principles to pay for your past crimes.

What I am telling you are TRIED AND TRUE MB principles that have worked for many, many people. Ignoring a large portion of those principles because of your past affair will DOOM your chances. These tactics have saved the marriages of many, many people which is why MB is so very successful.

I am not here to give "my side," but the MARRIAGE BUILDERS SIDE, because I KNOW it works. But cutting off the hard ones will get you NOTHING. Half measures will avail you nothing. Enabling your wife's affair will get you nothing.

So tomorrow I am taking the girls to a church movie night and I beleive my wife is going to dinner with the OM. I had a thought their is a lay leader in our church that has been counciling me and that my W really respects... they I know where they are at, should I ask him to go there and confront her and ask why she is out with another man while her family is at churhc... This Lay leader is a type that would take that on as a rightous cause for keeping any marriage under god together.

So this would be exposure and it would cause her great shame by having this person being the one to confront her?

Yeah and I am ducking the bullet so I don't have to do it.

I have called a lawyer and will meeting them next week.

I am going to talk to them about

1) Custody - I have a chance to have custody of the kids
2) finances - both protect and getting out of some debts
3) Alienation of Affection - I can sue the OM for damages
4) Possible court order to get back into the house

I did a good plan A tonight, as W was at her gymnastics coaching job, I took care of the girls.

Laundry hasn't been touched since Monday when I did it last, so I did 3 loads of her and kids close. Did a bunch of domestic stuff.

Left out a present I got on my trip to new york for her

and had the girls in bed by the time she got home.

Had realy brief words with her... well goodnight.

Did hang around, called her later to let her know I wasn't stalking around the house and she thanked me for cleaning up. Told me I didn't have to do it and I told her I know, I wanted too.

Now I just need to keep that up and get my Stick sharp.

Viking, you need to listen to Melody. She's been out here and helped hundreds of people get through this. Other folks chiming in with advice gleaned from having gone through this themselves are welcome, but they must have a thorough grasp of MB principles and requirements.

Second, you've already identified a big problem in yourself but I'm not seeing any improvement in your words. I thought Marines had cojones, mister. Cut out this neediness crap and straighten up. Women don't like needy men and every time you let your adulterous wife see you like that, you reduce her respect for you by several degrees of magnitude.

Third, I doubt the NC law actually restricts you from moving home. She asked you for some space, you gave it to her, now you move home. If you doubt your right to do so, get a darned attorney and find out for certain. Quit speculating and quit getting amateur advice.

Mister, you say you’ve committed adultery yourself. All right. It’s over with. It’s in the past and you’ve tried to make amends. You probably didn’t do it perfectly but I see remorse in your words. If need be, you can deal with it AFTER your wife's current adultery ends.

Here’s a fact you need to understand. Your adultery does not justify hers and you do NOT negotiate with her assuming it does. They are separate events that CAN be brought together in one healing recovery, but you’ll need professional counseling to do that. You do NOT surrender part of the stick of Plan A out of guilt for what you have done in the past. The carrot and stick are balanced, and they are part of the plan.

Viking, if you want to recover your marriage, you can. Appeasing your wife, though, and allowing her free time with that other man, will get you NOWHERE…absolutely nowhere. Appeasement got Chamberlain nowhere with Hitler; it’ll get you nowhere with the alien your wife has become.

If you decide to transform yourself into a proactive husband who wants his life and marriage back, tell us and there will be people out here to help you. Frankly, Marine, if you keep on down the road you’re on now, you’re going to lose your marriage. You might anyway. There’s no guarantee MB will work for your situation but there’s a very high probability it can. However, if you don’t get off your a$$ and get to work, you’ll have to live the rest of your life wondering if there wasn’t something more you could have done. Are you ready to get to work?

viking, that would be a good exposure. But I would also speak to your pastor and ask him to talk to her. Who else to whom could you expose?

Who is this OM? Can you contact his parents? What does he do for a living? Is he married?

If she is going out with her boyfriend tomorrow, I would let her know how very hurtful this is and disrespectful to you and your children.

Have you explained to your children what is going on here? That their mother is engaged in an affairs and that affairs are WRONG? Affairs are very morally confusing to children and they need moral guidance. They sense that affairs are immoral and if this is not validated, they are confused and begin to doubt their own instincts about right and wrong.

We went to MC yesterday and our counseler gave me the 5th for bringing in the children into the the discussion, even though my oldest had concern's mommy was on the phone too much with the OM and she was starting to feel neglected, I got a bit upset and told her that the OM is just trying to use your mother to get into bed with her.

I have heard from other sources the OM is a player, goes after married women and doesn't care of the impact. He's not married does have a good job, is a bit of a loof. I think that is one thing my W likes right now the fun side of things, he has no cares or worries. She isn't sleeping with him but she is txt msg him her love for him, I know the that the PA is right around the corner, especially if I dont' institute a solid plan A and stop my whinning and clingyness.

I am going to call our lay leader this morning and see if he is willing to help expose. I think simply if I find out where they are at I will call him tell him and he will just walk in like he was going to be there anyways and just tell her how disappointed he is of her, that would really cause her to sink and make the date seem akward.


Again I want to through caution in here and ask, if she is just friends with this guy and they are having a frienly good time, even though his attentions are more sexual, if she just keeps him as a friend do I still go full bore with exposure. I have had friends in the past that wanted a relationship but I didn't engage and we still remained friends. I am truly worried that if i attack her about an affair and their truly isn't one, I defeat my purpose.... That is why I will continue to gather evidence

She asked me about health insurance, because she is thinking if we divorce she isn't covered under mine anymore. I sent her a link to Blue Cross Blue Shield, is that enabling of being respectful?

by the way last night when she got home from work, I said goodnight and left without saying one R thing and went straight home and didn't think about the OM or anything negative the whole way. I find that controlling the negative thoughts is greatly helping impliment plan A. Before i would creat worse case scenarios in my head and then react to it like they were really happening.

She had a whole week to see the OM and did so only 1 for lunch.

Is it appropriate to txt mgs WS each day to wish them a good day and home they have fun???

Correction the OM doesn't have a good job, he is a handyman does construction, lives with friends and basically exist out of his 77 bronco. He smokes and drinks, but not around the W. He has been caught lying to her - he even went out and got some from a bar fly when my wife wasn't available to go out and hang out. He is waiting for his opportunity to sack her but does get his own action on the side.

I honestly believe my wife knows all this but because of the pain and desire to get away from me and the issue of our marriage she is ignoring it and having the fun life.... I am just worried he will wear her down and convince her to sleep with him, which will put me into another tailspin.... or maybe it wont, I have been focusing on myself so much that what she is doing is not bothering me as much, and I still gathering information on her A so when the time comes to expose I don't look like a schmuck

viking, did you read what I wrote about telling your pastor? What about her parents? Do they know about the affair? What have they been told? How much exposure has been done?

I would not delude yourself into rationalizing this into anything except an affair. Women don't kick their husbands out over "friendships." You need to face the fact that this is an affair.

How do you know that the OM is single? Is this something your W has told you? Because if so, I would verify it. It is very common for a WS or an OP to LIE about marital status.

When is your appt with your attorney?


Try and put this in age appropriate terms. Explain to them that married people are suppposed to only be romantic with each other. Tell that adultery is WRONG and explain to them that their mother is doing a bad thing. Your kids need to have your guidance on this.

I'd also like to add my voice to MelodyLane's.

Move back into your house.
EXPOSE!
Protect your finances and your kids.

And, I'd like to mention that the guy your wife was "talking to" from 6 years ago also counts as an affair. So, I agree that your cheating 5 years ago should not affect whether you expose or not.

Married people should not be "talking to" ANYONE of the opposite sex AT ALL!

And, I'm sorry, but I think your wife has already become physical with OM, if she's doing the ILUs in text messaging.

So I had my consultation with an attorney, told him everything about what is going on and the past and what I have and what I think my W is doing.

As you have said, I have been bit of a fool.... North Carolina 's legal system is very conservative about marriage and frowns on those who break it up, and that is very true in the rural county I live in. He thinks that with everything I have I could look at having a positive settlement if my w decides to go to court. I could gain custody and I might not have to pay all or any alimony.

I am the one trying to keep the marriage together.

He is also going to send the OM a very blunt letter from his office stating the Alienation of Affection law and that he needs to discontinue contact with my W, or face legal action. Which last year in NC a husband was awarded 100,000 from the OM because he caused his bank executive wife to leave.

I sit down with him May 16 to draft up separation paperwork, based on what the court says and not what her or I say. Then he will serve her with them.

All the time I will be working on my Plan A.

viking, can you not go home? It's important to protect your children and your finances frm her, but you can't very well repair your marriage if you are not home and she is free to carry on her affair. Going home is a CRITICAL PRIORITY in addition to EXPOSURE.

You need to be home with your children.