Hi everyone,

I've been away a few weeks due to holidays and AWOL computer, but I've finally got a loan of one so I'm checking in.

Some days ago I asked S11 if he could ask WH if he could have him this Sunday to Monday. He said he needed times, etc., so this morning I got S11 to ring him with the times. He told S11 to tell me to put it in an e-mail, which I did, almost as soon as S11 hung up the phone. Broadband went down in the entire town, so he didn't receive the e-mail this morning. This afternoon, WH rang my cell twice, and I ignored it. So I've just received the following e-mail:

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Dear River Tam

I am always happy to have S11 with me anytime, however, from what I have heard from our children I believe that you may have known for the last week that some sort of arrangements for this weekend would be necessary. I would appreciate it if you would give me a little more notice than this in future. When I had not heard from you by this morning I had thought that I had got it wrong and I would be asked to have him next weekend

I do have commitments this weekend, however, if S11 is collected from my apartment by 2pm on Saturday
and if you can arrange for both him and S16 to get back to the apartment after church on Sunday, I will be able to have him both Saturday and then Sunday overnight and get him off to school on Monday.

I am available to discuss this on my mobile, otherwise I will take it that this arrangement is satisfactory to you. It would be much easier to work in with you over the phone so in the future I will impose on you to speak to me to arrange these occasions.

Thanks. Have a safe trip.

WH

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Now... a couple things:

- I'm not sure whether he's ticked off or just using the "businesslike" tone that I myself adopt in e-mails, but I'm upset because he's been happy to have S11 arrange visits all along. Also, he would have KNOWN from the time on my e-mail and from his secretary that the system was down and I did the right thing.

- The children do not know all my movements and surmising anything about them from what they say is CRAP.

- I am NOT willing to speak to him on the phone. We are now one month away before he can file for D, and he probably will, but just because a D will legitimize his A, I'm not willing to talk to him or automatically snap out of Plan B. As a matter of fact, at the moment I am STILL so hurt by all this that my thinking is that if this R he has with her is forever, then I cannot have ANY R with him - forever.

So how do I answer this? I'm upset about it. I feel reprimanded, nervy and weepy, and feel like I've taken about 500 steps backwards just reading it; I am a strong woman but this is what my reaction to him is after what he has submitted me to. I am also ticked off at his arrogance in believing that he can "impose on me to speak to me to arrange these occasions".

Haaaalp!

RT

Hiya RT. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm no expert, but you can have my opinion and hopefully it'll help. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You said,
E-Mail is so impersonal. If reading between the lines of this one makes you upset, don't do it. It looks to me, though, that he had some plans this weekend that were rather important to him because he said,
Next you said,
I was reminded earlier on this board that what is obvious to you what what you think you should know can't always be applied to someone else. He said,

I see two things in this statement. First, he hadn't gotten your e-mail, so there was no time stamp to see yet. Second, he didn't say he was wrong, just hinted that he might be. That was his invitation to you for conversation/communication. Sneaky lil guy, ain't he? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Then he says,
First, he's reaffirming his invitation to you for conversation with him. Second, he wants control of this exchange. "If you don't talk to me, it'll be like this." Third, he's trying to get you to see the rational in conversing with him and fourth, he reaffirms the invitation to conversation again. Wow, I think he really wants to talk to you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Then you say, Awesome resolve. Good for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I encourage you to drop the "on the phone" part though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You close with,
A couple of options on how to answer. 1. If the times are agreeable to you, don't answer and let him have the control. (not advised) 2. Have S11 call him and confirm he got the e-mail with the times and have S11 affirm the times on the phone. Tell S11 to explain that broadband was out and that you're missing some e-mail as well. Answer as though you didn't get his e-mail. Don't let him see that his e-mail upset you. (advised)

Good luck and chin up. Remember, it's an emotional roller coaster. He only has control of you if you let him. Furthermore, he can't impose anything. I think you're doing well.

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The WS' scarcasm qualifies for a full blown RB response. LOL!!! So here goes:

Ws,

The schedule notification you received in my last e-mail was current. I am sure you are aware there was a network failure which delayed this e-mail. That was beyond my control.

As for your plans, if you can't accomodate your own children's visitation, then other arrangements will need to be made. The children will be informed.

As for your request/demand to speak on the phone, well for now your current state of mind prevents this from being civil so I will refrain from taxing your brain to those limits. Should you be able to improve your conduct to one where it makes it safe to have civil discussions with you, then I will consider phone contact. For now, it is safer for our family if communication is limited to e-mails. Good things for e-mails, would hate to see what you do to a carrier pidgeon. LOL!!

BS.

NOTE: Can you make other arrangements for your children?

L.

S11 =son aged 11


Max

Thanks for the laugh Orchid! I sorely needed it. You post was also really enlightening, Drexxell, thanks for dissecting the e-mail like that.

I feel a bit better now that the fight-or-flight has died down but I genuinely got a FRIGHT at how I reacted to this e-mail. (Just so it's clear: I wasn't frightened of the e-mail, just my reaction to it.) Every now and then I am struck by how traumatized I must have been to have such reactions towards communication with this man, and this was one of those times.

Orchid, are you serious about sending your response? I don't know... I've been thinking about how to reply, and was thinking of something short and to the point. Also, I've been thinking about how many BSs mantras has been "No contact!" and was thinking that maybe the response should be something along the lines of

"WH,

Thank you for agreeing to mind S11. As he'll explain, he was meant to ask you about staying far earlier than he did, and as your secretary will explain, broadband was down all over town, which affected the arrival of the e-mail I sent you this morning as soon as S11 hung up the phone (approx. 8.30am).

As I said in my letter of 30 December, I will be happy to consider speaking to you when your relationship with this woman is over, and you have ceased all contact with her.

Until then,
RT"

What do you think?

BIG FAT LIE!!! Always happy...anytime???? Should you put this to a test? (Just kidding!)




Ahh..the man is not liking Plan B....for many different reasons...The fantasy bubble is bursting..this is no longer just FUN...he has to work in visits with his children..the ugliness of this is beginning to stare at him in the face..the OW is probably LBing over having to share her weekend time with the children..wow, this is "NOT EASY" for the poor man..he wants RELIEF from this...maybe if he can TALK to you it can be EASIER...just a little LOVE DEPOSIT from RT to ease this burden ...so that he can more happily continue his affair...the thing is this is no longer FUN and EASY...not the IDEAL LIFE he had imagined and expected...



Good! Good! Good! I personally agree with this entire paragragh...sounds just like a Mimi Moment.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Your reaction to this all is understandable to me, RT. His audacity, arrogance and deceitfulness is still going strong....but the good part is that he is NOT HAPPY about this PLAN B stuff so it definitely needs to continue...

I like your E-Mail..short and to the point...that's the kind of communication necessary for the foggy WS...also this will maintain his RESPECT for you...

This is going according to Plan...

He is following the standard script....trying to break you down..trying to find relief from the pain that he is beginning to experience...

RT,

I keep up on your posts -- you are doing well under difficult circumstances. Here's my 2cents, I would make your letter a bit stronger/firmer ala Orchid's suggestion. I think it's very important that you address why you don't want to talk over the phone in case his email is part of the D -- the judge needs to see that you have a good reason. Also, I would limit the communication/explanation that goes through DS11 and make sure that you use email to confirm visitation arrangements. I would write something like this (fix it as needed - I'm not clear about the timing of your email, also, the last part is hard to write):

WH,

Thank you for agreeing to mind S11.

The schedule notification you received in my last e-mail was sent at 8:30 am. Broadband was down all over town, which delayed the delivery of the e-mail. That was beyond my control.

As for your request to speak on the phone, well, your current state of mind and your actions prevent this from being civil. So for now, it is safer for our family if we communicate by email and limit phone conversations to emergencies. Should your conduct improve and you end the relationship with the other woman that has caused so much damage to our family, then I will be happy to consider speaking with you.

Until then,
RT

River,

IMHO, WH is hoping to get you worked up, perhaps so that he can engage you in an argument so that he can be reinforced that you are somehow responsible for his affair.

I think I would not take his bait and simply reply.

I am so sorry that there was a problem with timely delivery of my email that contained the details you requested. There was no intent to inconvenience you on my part. I will sincerely try to do better in the future.

Just a thought.

Who

Who Me brings up another potential reason for his E-Mail..

I agree with this..



The simple response is best at this point. No need to bring up getting rid of the OW..YET...

Let's see what happens NEXT..

Hi RT,

Your answer, short and to the point, is best.

...and yes, expect this from your WS.

My WS like yours, has tried MANY times to convince me, for the best interest of our boys, of course, knowing how important they are to me... while trying to make me feel guilty.....that we should be 'talking'.....and that my refusing to 'talk and discuss' things with him was harmful to the boys....

....wanting to totally 'divert' the issue as to what it could possibly be doing to them the fact that: Dad lied to mom, had/has a GF on the side, left home, asks them to 'move in and out' each week.....

Well....he has stopped....because my answer has been consistent..... and WS pretty well 'got the message' about what needs to happen if he wants to be in ANY relationship with me:

MY ANSWER: ...yes, it would be a good idea and better for the boys:

a) if and when I can be reassured that I would no longer be a part of a triangle
b) if and when HIS family was once again a priority in his life
c) if and when his A ended

The way I see it.....as long as he is a WS.... I am better off and more effective in dealing with MY daily challenges with him NOT in the picture..... homelife is quieter, I have projects, I see friends who care about ME.... and most importantly....I feel I am better able to be 'there' for my boys.... by not wasting any time and energy on a WS.....like I did after D-day and after he left home by trying to 'understand' when there was NOTHING to understand.....

...and, yes, I believe a BS is 'traumatized'.... my heart still skips a beat whenever I see that there is a message from WS.... as if telling me: BEWARE.... DANGER.... PROTECTION MODE.... and I need to 'talk' to myself to neutralize the messages!

As Dr. Phil sometimes says.... life is 'managed' not cured..... and, boy, is it TRUE!

Take care, RT. I was wondering about you....

"BIG FAT LIE!!! Always happy...anytime???? Should you put this to a test? (Just kidding!)"

Aaahhh Mimi you're spot on! And he's already failed the test! Who is the person who rings and arranges visits and calls to say goodnight 99% of the time? Not WH, that's for sure. It's down to little S11, and if he doesn't do it, 99% of the time it just doesn't happen.

Thank you Nev, I appreciate that. This is the first time I've had to do this and really need the insight into where and how I need to be firmer.

WhoMe, OH YEAH!!! I totally agree that he's trying to get me worked up. He's done this since the OW came on the picture. Whenever things escalate with her (and so does his guilt, I presume), or whenever he's been unhappy, he's rung me and badgered me and just picked a fight (which I think I only ever gave him once, with some RB Orchid would have been pleased with). So he's trying once again with e-mail. It wouldn't surprise me if he'd been wanting ammunition and this presented it to him.

More food for thought. Thanks, everyone.

Hot on the heels of this now I FEEL like a heel because Plan B has hit S16 (who lives with WH) on the head for the first time.

Tomorrow S16 is performing in one of the yearly concerts with the senior orchestra at school. I told him I'd come, and it was all cool. Tonight we were talking, chatting happily, and I finalized the times for tomorrow night, and he says, "Oh, just so you know, Dad's probably gonna be there, and he's probably gonna have OW with him." I felt like a startled deer and didn't even pause. I ran! I said, "Oh, OK, well, I might give it a miss then." He went really quiet, and said, "I was just telling you, I thought you'd want to know" and I said, "Yes, I know, thank you. But I can't be there. I just don't want to know, and I don't want to be there with your father and his mistress. I'm sorry." He went REALLY quiet then. (I don't know whether he's ever heard me - or anyone - refer to the OW as his father's "mistress", so it could well have been shocking to him, but what's even more shocking is that I called her "mistress" ON PURPOSE. I made sure I didn't call her by name, and I made sure I gave her a title.) I apologized once again, told him I'm sorry to involve him, etc., and he accepted my apology, but I know I hurt him. I know I hurt him really badly. I couldn't salvage the conversation after that, and I was left feeling like the lowest of the low.

I don't know whether I did the right thing or not, but I did the only thing I felt I could do at the time. I can't handle be anywhere near WH right now, let alone the OW. Plan B aside, the very idea of dealing with WH fills me with a fear and panic I cannot begin to describe.

Sigh... a tough, tough day.

Thanks again Mimi, and Lunamare. All great stuff to consider. I/m now going to bed to sleep on this.

Thanks so much everyone, as always I appreciate your insights (keep 'em coming if there's more!), and being able to pick the brains of people who aren't as frazzled I am at the moment!

I'm really sorry this bothers you so much. I'm surprised you're not at the <roll eyes and sigh> stage at this point. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

He's p*ssy and bitter... condesending, just wanting to point out that you handled something poorly (in his mind). Hardly surprising. I'd seriously not act offended or hurt in your reply. The RB reply sounds a little like you gave it too much thought.

A simple, "I'll take care of it, thanks, anyway" or "thanks" would be my only reply.

He'd love to see you get emotional about this. Keep it simple, like it didnt mean a thing. Please take care - Dru

How about this...

WS,

Email is the nature of our communication because I cannot talk on the phone with you and give any legitimization to your illicit A with the homewrecker.

I'm sorry circumstances are not going to work to take S11 this weekend. Do you really want to put a limit on how much time required to be given notice to spend time with your children?...there will be spur of the moment opportunities to spend time with them. I guess I will take these opportunities myself.

It is unfortunate your email sounded like you felt guilty about the time you would have available to spend with your children this weekend, but you had to blame me for that guilt. Perhaps we could work on better communicaiton in the future.

So am I, Drucilla. It really worries me. I haven't seen my shrink in a few months because I was doing so well and didn't feel the need, but I'm obviously nowhere near over this and will make an appointment today. Thanks.

Thanks, SHMI. I want to say something like that, don't know though. I'll see. I've had a good sleep but am not quite sure which route to take yet. :-/

OK - brainflash!

How about this:

"WH,

OK, that's great. Thanks.

River Tam

P.S. I will happily consider speaking to you once again when the ultimate imposition on our children and me of your adulterous affair is over, and you have ceased all contact with this woman. See you then!

I still say leave off the part about get rid of the OW.

Save that for later. Not just about this little incident.

Mimi, I totally understand, but it's just that I really think he's trying to take control of the sitch and I just don't want him in any shape or form to think that speaking to him - for any reason - is acceptable to me while that woman is in the picture. I guess I just wanted to assert my stand on this.

Then again... if I continue to refuse to speak to him while the OW is in the picture, that's a statement too, isn't it? Do you think this is enough?

I think you allow him control by showing that he has bothered you with this.

You've got it!! Actions speak louder than words to the WS, IMO.

He knows what he needs to do..

Telling him again won't make a difference. It will just indicate that he got to you at this point.

I say to remind him to get rid of her when he is leaning in the direction of doing that.

That statement to him at this point will meet deaf ears. He remains arrogant and deceitful.

Gotcha. I'll send him a reply containing ten words or less. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks!