Thanks so much, Drexxell. But the timing of the A doesn't really matter legally because we have no-fault D here.

OK Mimi, I'll continue to do that, thanks. Actually, I think the shame may have begun. I think he was terribly, terribly naive. At first, in his quest to be "open" and have everyone in town see the honest guy he is, he took her out everywhere. Now... I think people's reactions must have spoken because from what I can tell, they've pretty much gone underground. He goes to her place (1 1/2 hours away), and I don't much hear of them going out in public in our town as much as I used to. Could well be because I'm in Plan B now and I'm more or less out of contact, but there appears to be a lot less OW around the place. Last time I saw them together was when we drove past each other. And you know what? It WAS a back road! LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Can someone please give me some perspective here?

Today is a truly sucky day, the followup to last week when I didn't go to S16's concert.

To refresh your memory: S16 (who lives with WH) was performing in one of the yearly concerts with the senior orchestra at school. I told him I'd come, and it was all cool. Then the night before we were talking, chatting happily, and I finalized the times for next night, and he says, "Oh, just so you know, Dad's probably gonna be there, and he's probably gonna have OW with him." I said, "Oh, OK, well, I might give it a miss then." He went really quiet, and said, "I was just telling you, I thought you'd want to know" and I said, "Yes, I know, thank you. But I can't be there. I just don't want to know, and I don't want to be there with your father and his mistress. I'm sorry." He went REALLY quiet then. I apologized once again, told him I'm sorry to involve him, etc., and he accepted my apology, but I know I hurt him.

Well last night that particular chicken came home to roost.

S16 came over last night, and we had a nice time together. But on the way home, I decided to talk to him about this event last Friday. And boy oh boy... it was ghastly. I am heartbroken, and emotionally spent over it.

As soon as I mentioned it, he went very quiet. As soon as I mentioned that he might consider OW a friend, but time will prove that she along with WH is an enemy to our family, and to everything we hold sacred, he said, "OK, I don't like where this is headed, and I don't want to hear it." I assured him this wasn't going to be a bash-the-OW thing, but I wanted to explain to him how I feel about things. Well, we wouldn't have it! He said he realizes it's wrong, and doesn't need me to tell him, and I said it wasn't about that. He just has to understand how I feel. He said my feelings shouldn't have mattered, I should have been there because of him, just like his father and the OW were. So I had to explain to him WHY I can't be there in the same room. First, because I cannot be seen to condone or put any face of normalcy on the sitch, and second, because of how being in the same room as WH makes me feel. I told him several things, and he found it very very hard, tears were streaming down his face, and face to face with my feelings he was incredibly defensive and uncomfortable. At one point he says, "You don't need to tell me any of this! I've got you telling me this, and Dad telling me all kinds of things on the other! Don't unload yourself on me! Don't burden me with your feelings!" I told him I was not unloading or burdening, and that I have told him almost NOTHING about how I feel. I just wanted to apologize, and explain, and have him know how I feel. He said, "I can't know how you feel!" And that's when I lost it. He was spouting so much of his dad's type of words that I said, "Oh come on, don't give me that psychobabble bull****!" And he just got his bag, got out of the car, and stormed off into the apartment he shares with his dad.

I was quite distressed, let me tell you. It's obvious that face to face with my feelings, and the evidence of what his father has done to me and the family makes him feel quite, quite torn.

Several things are clear to me after this. Although like my sister told me last night, I must take all this with a grain of salt because he's 16 and such emotions come with the territory of teenagehood, I know this:

* His father has done quite a number on him. Living with a wayward parent, witnessing things that aren't "normal" for us, has affected him. Also, WH has had uninterrupted opportunity to talk to S16 and confuse the heck out of him, justifying his actions and rubbishing me (even though S16 said to me, "What - do you think I believe EVERYTHING Dad tells me?").

* S16 has loyalty to the OW now, every bit as much as WH has.

* I must detach from my son and not share my feelings with him any more. He is very much his father's son right now, and I'm going to have to do the "light, friendly, warm" thing and that's it. No deep-and-meaningfuls. He cannot be trusted with my feelings.

* I've lost S16. Lost him. Not for good, because I am his mother, and time and God with redress this dreadful imbalance, but for now, I have. He is not mine. And given that I don't know when all of this will end, it could well mean that I am missing out on the rest of his childhood. There's every chance that all I'll get to have of my son is 16 years... and that's it. Because in a couple of years he'll be off to college or whatever and I will have lost this final time of his childhood.

I am quite distressed. I will NOT hold this over my son, but this has left me in a terrible state. I know this sitch is not of my making, but I'm wondering whether I'm handling it the right way. Even though being in the same room as WH (not to mention him with the OW) fills be with fear and panic, and I'm in Plan B, did I do the right thing in not going to S16's concert? I don't know any more.

And I don't know what to do in future. I told S16 that this is not for always, but how I feel *right now* and cannot go faster than I am able, he was just so upset.

I'm confused, and hurting terribly, and I really need some wisdom and insight from someone about all this. Please!

*bump*

Anyone? Please? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

RT,

I wsih I had some words of wisdom for you but I don't. As I am going through the same thing with my almost 16 yr old son. He is now living with WH and the OW. I coulnd't stop it from happening.

He has pulled away from me and we used to be so close. He also like you son sounds like a WS the way he talks.

I think the best thing we can do is continue to show them our love and support. Let them know we are there for them. They know what is happening is wrong and they do f eel torn between both parents. Boys at this age need and want their fathers sad part is our WH'S are not really good parenting material right now. But I have faith that ours sons will see this and make the right descions.

In the meantime just love him like a mom......


Hurting

RT,

Right now your son feels like he is carrying the burdens of his parents on his shoulders. I know you feel the need to make sure he understands. That's not what he can digest at this point.

What he does need to know is that you love him and despite effort of 'others' to break up family's, you love your son and your love will surive through the muck. Let him take back the thought that you love your son. When he asks why you couldn't be there for him while the OW was pretending t/b his friend, let him know that if he felt he needed to invite the OW, it was too hard t/d even if you really wanted t/b there. Let him know you don't expect him to understand but that is what his father has done, made it hard for the family to attend family oriented functions. See you put the onis on the WS. Again reassure him of your love. Remind him it is his choice to go live with the WS, you don't condone it either so that is another reason why you have to keep your distance. If he asks why again....let him know the OW is unstable and you don't want to make it harder on your son. End of story. Don't give 'your side'. Your son can't handle knowing your side. Not now....not yet.

L.

I know it would have been hard, but I think you should have gone for your son. He wanted you there and he needed you there. He is a child still with emotions all over the place. There is nothing and no one who could keep me from my children. If OW is there then sit on the opposite side of the room and exit quickly. That way you will enjoy your son and he will be happy you were there.

As far as trying to get your point across to him, I agree with Orchid, your son can't handle knowing your side, not yet. I would also not detach from my son. I would make every move to keep my relationship with my son.

The children are the innocent victims in all this affair stuff. Even though he is living with WH and OW he is still YOUR son. Do not let them just take him from you. Continue loving him and having a relationship with him if he will let you. As Hurting said, her son right now won't talk to her, but she continues to reach out to him. Your son seems to still want a relationship with you. Don't lose that.

This is all so hard...best of luck to you.

Hi RiverTam,

I think your son just needed you to acknowledge and validate his feelings - your decision to not attend for whatever reason does not take away the HURT of your not being there....

...your wanting him to UNDERSTAND your feelings and your reasons may be interpreted by him that as a result he shouldn't be feeling HURT....but he is hurting.... and he has a right to his feelings....regardless of whether or not you had valid reasons, for you, not to go.....

You see RT, I am a person who UNDERSTOOD a lot and in the process.... negated my feelings..... it's one of the things I am trying to work on....validate and give a voice to my own feelings.....but not necessarily act on them all the time.....

...you see, I realized that by 'understanding' others, which is good at times, I actually gave them a means to 'manipulate me' by giving others a means to negate my feelings, by overdoing it.... I was giving a lot of power away..... but, as I have often heard Dr. Phil say, I had to look at what was my 'payoff' for doing it.... because apparently there is always one.... well I figured that 'understanding' others..... also meant for me that I did not need to acknowledge my feelings, consider them, and most importantly did not have to ACT on anything...because if I did, I may need to have DO something.... it was the 'easy' way out on a short-term basis... and a desaster on the long-term basis..... because I did not deal with my own feelings (so, they accumulated).... and it also meant putting 'everybody' else before ME.....YUK!

On a regular basis now.... when I see what our 'separation' requires our boys to do..... I apologize to them....and acknowledge how hard all this must be on them.....for example, packing a bag every week and moving out to dad's place and not having just ONE place to stay..... my older son being obliged to 'babysit' younger brother while at dad's because dad is working at night.....which would not be the case were we not separated! ...they seem to appreciate the fact that, at least, I recognize the extra 'burden' the separation has put on them..... on the odd occasion, this actually seems to give them a chance to express how they feel about it.... on a regular basis, it gives a chance for my DS10 to tell me that he misses me..... I just say....'yes, I know....I miss you, too' while giving him lots of extra hugs and kisses and telling him that least he won't miss out on kisses and hugs 'overall'...and fix phone appts with him.... little things that end up meaning a lot for them and for me..... and really help!

I think a 'separation' could send out the message to the kids that they are no longer a 'priority', not valuable ..... I try to counter-attack this message by telling my boys...more than usual how much I love them and how much they are important to me and doing little 'thoughtful' things for them to show it.....and actually it all comes back to me ten-folds.... because sooner or later they end up communicating to me how much my little acts of 'attention' are appreciated...

Being in PLAN B has helped me in that all the energy I was putting into WS.... I have redistributed it and investing it in: myself, my boys, my friends, my work... and it's starting to pay off in soooo many little ways.....

So, I guess, I am suggesting RT to not to lose sight of the fact that the children are 'hurting' as you are even though they may try not to show it too much in what I think is their attempt to NOT be an additional burden.... but if I, as a parent, CHOSE to have children... I never want my boys to feel that they are a burden to me..... because they are the opposite.... they are the 'light' in my life and my biggest motivator to get through this.... INSPITE of my WS does!

This weekend, for example, I got my yard all cleaned up..... for me, my boys and my friends (unfortunately I don't have my family close by, but have lots of friends to make up for it!)

Sorry if my post is a little too long.... and I seem to talk a lot about me... but, bottom line, I guess....what I would like to say to you is that maybe for your son asking him to UNDERSTAND your position means you're asking him to take sides which he can't.....

I think for starters..... as the adult, I would suggest you to 'hear' him out, first, and validate his feelings....before attempting to express yours......making it clear that you are not asking him to choose between you and dad!

Tell me, RT, at this stage, has your WS expressed an intention to file for D, or not?

Take care.

RT:

I agree totally with Orchid on this one.

Her post could have been mine.

I agree with the importance of your continuing to show and express your love for your son. This can be accomplished without you going to a concert.

You see, I also understand that you could not have gone to the concert. He won't be able to understand why not... right now. Maybe he will some day.

Give him the clear message that you will continue to love him no matter what.

Evidence your love in your own way..not FOR SHOW..a hug.. calling him to say "I LOVE YOU"...spending special ALONE time with him...fixing his favorite foods...

My young adult sons have told me that, in the long run, those times were most special..not the grandiose events...

My opinion...

Thank you so, so, SO much, everyone. This is a lot of food for thought and I'm going to just take a little time to digest it all. I rang S16 last night though for our nightly chat, and it was fine. I didn't mention the previous night and just had a chat. I felt that being light had to be the business of the day. (Apropos of which, out of the blue, WH rang D18 to tell her that he was driving over to drop off the mail, and she was to meet him outside. I suspected that something was up, so before he arrived I said to her, "I know I don't have to tell you this, but as a reminder, please keep in mind that what I told you about S16 last night was between you and me." Well, sure enough, when WH turns up, he says to her, "Do you know what happened last night with mom and S16? Because he came in cussing and crying." She said, "Nope." And he said, "Did mom mention anything?" And she shrugged and said, "No." Not good that D18 had to lie, but UNFAIR that he's trying to extract info from our daughter just b/c S16 didn't tell him. DIRTY POOL!!!)

Lunamare, I've posted about the D issue above, as "Waiting for the guillotine". WH only said two things: many months ago, he said to D18, "I will not stay married to your mother one second longer than I have to." Another time, when he was going insane for no particular reason, he referred to himself as my ex-husband. I gasped and said, "You're not my ex-husband!" And he replied, "I'm working on it!" In just a few weeks, we will have been separated a year, which is what our law requires as the minimum separation time before you can file for D. I have no reason to doubt he'll go ahead, but on the other hand, have no reason to expect it, either. I guess time will tell.

Thanks again everyone. Off to do some thinking and praying...

*bumping up for Lunamare*

Hi everyone,

Remember this in the e-mail WH sent last week?


Well, today he tried it on.

S11 has been at camp all week, and this morning when he got up, he asked whether he could spend the day with his dad . I said if it was OK with his dad, it was fine by me. So S11 rang him up and they arranged it. Something off the cuff, for the day (not a sleepover, as was the case last week) and that was it. Well, when he comes to pick up S11 I'm inside the house, of course, and kiss our son goodbye. A couple of minutes later, S11 comes back in and says, "Dad asks whether he can just talk to you through the door for just a minute." I asked, "What for?" S11 says, "I think it's about him dropping me off." I said, "Tell him to send me an e-mail."

Well, we had the door open but the screen door shut, and all of a sudden I hear him call my name. Luckily, D18 had the music on LOUD and I was able to pretend I didn't hear. I went into the bathroom and started cleaning it. Then D18 comes in and says, "Dad's at the back door. He says he respects your wishes, and you don't have to talk to him, he just wants to finalize the times to drop off S11 tonight." I said, "Tell him to send me an e-mail". D18 said, "I don't want to be the messenger between you." I said, "Then don't be. But I'm not going out there."

And that was that. I don't know what D18 said to him, but he left.

I am AGHAST at his arrogance! That he would think that because he SAID he would "impose" on me to speak to him about him having S11 that it would be enough! I mean, I was amazed at the arrogance of him writing that in the first place, but him trying to follow through? UNBELIEVABLE!

I think he's forgotten who he married. I might have been beaten down and might be suffering from the abuse he's submitted me to, but the woman he married has come back with a vengeance and she will NOT respond to arrogance! She will also not respond to a WH. Just the H, thank you very much, and a very humble one at that.

I also think he's forgotten what's in the letter. The letter doesn't say that I won't speak to HIM, it says that HE is not to contact ME for any reason. Stupid man, here he is thinking that I'm giving him the silent treatment because he's having an A. It hasn't yet occurred to me that because he's having an A, he doesn't get an "in" to me. NOT ONE.

HOLD ON RT,

I have been following your situation and I haven't posted until now, but I feel I must say something in regards to the children.

You guy's have to come to some decision on how to communicate for the children's sake. You are both using them as a go between. They are going to resent both of you pretty soon. I can already tell that this is tearing up your children. You both need to stop and think about what is happening to them. I think you should be civil enough for your kid's sake.

And as for your son's concert, I would have gone and held my head high and let WH and OW know that I was going to be there for my son and they weren't going to make me stay in hiding from them. I would have waived, whooped, clapped the loudest and let my son know that I was there for him. It would have possibly been more uncomfortable for WH and OW than it would have been for you. But, since you did not go, I would apologize to your son and tell him from now on, you will not let WH and OW stop you again and that you will be there for him in the future, then I would unload all the love I could on him. I would also apoligize to your daughter and tell her you will never ask her to lie or relay messages to WH again. Then unload ton's of love on her too.

Anyway, I think this is getting out of hand and that you both need to work out a plan where the children aren't made to suffer. Email him if you have to, but stop using the children. It is hurting them. I do blame WH for having the A and for breaking up the family but, RT, you have to not let your emotions get away from you where your children are concerned. Those kid's need you to be loving and in control. Even if you feel you can't look or talk to H through the door, you can't ask your kid's to lie for you or to relay messages for you. And, H shouldn't be asking your daughter what is going on either. It's completely unfair to them. Each parent needs to make them feel loved and that this is not their fault. Extra, Extra, love right now is what they can use.

Your plan B has to be different because you have children, you have to communicate because the children want to see their Dad. You need to be civil in front of them.

I hope you are not offended by my post. I just felt that it had to be said. God Bless your family

Beauty, no offense meant. I agree: the chidren should not be involved. Believe me I HATE this and not the way I want it. But there's a few things I need to clarify.

Firstly, the issue with S16. I've done a LOT of thinking about this, and taken everything everyone said on board. I haven't checked back, however, to bring everyone up to date on it. I'm sorting it with my son. We've reached a compromise. And it HAD to be a compromise, because while I am willing to do a LOT for my precious son, there are certain things I will not do for a few reasons, not least of which is that S16 actually INVITED the OW himself.

Secondly, I never, ever, EVER "use" my kids, not as the go-betweens, and not as anything else. 100% of the time, I e-mail WH, and 100% it's WH who engages the children. I'm fine communicating with e-mail, and it is HE who involves them. And he is ALWAYS pumping them for info on what I'm up to. I didn't ASK my daughter to lie. I never do. I just ask her to keep the more intimate details of our lives private, and as a matter of fact, I have asked her to tell her father, "Dad, this is an inappropriate question for you to ask me, and I feel uncomfortable." She chose to lie, and I already gave her a piece of my mind about it.

I don't have "children" who want to see their Dad. I have one son, S11. S16 lives with his Dad, and D18 is an adult (a very young one, but one nonetheless) free to make her own choices, and at the moment her choices do NOT involve seeing her Dad. That leaves S11. WH has shown NO interest in setting up regular access to him (it would, after all, cut into his OW time) either legally or with me, and has preferred the more catch-as-catch-can of S11 ringing him up, whereupon WH will either say yes I can see you, or no I can't.

I have no doubt I'm making mistakes aplenty here but I'm doing the best I can with the crap sitches WH puts me in. My emotions are not running away with me at the moment, and I was perfectly OK today. But what HE did today, out of the box, and as a followup to his intimidating e-mail, put all of us in a spot. And if well I told S11 and D18 to tell their father to e-mail me, that was the best I could come up with at that moment, and at least (cold comfort - don't think I don't suffer because of this) I didn't tell them to tell him, "Mom says she'll speak to you when you have got rid of OW."

Hope you see where I'm coming from. I will try very hard not to use the kids to relay messages, but this can only happen if WH respects the terms of my PLB and conducts HIS communications like I asked him to; springing something like this as he did today can only result in a completely undesirable sitch and I can't think that I could have done ANYTHING that would have been completely OK for everyone.

RT - I can relate to the communication thing. I believe it just really irritates our WH's that we won't talk to them. They just don't get it.

Mine has said "It would make is so much easier if you would just pick up the phone."

Yep. It would make it so much easier if you would end your A and show me your plan of protection.

Hang in there. Sorry about all of the stuff you've been going through.

Take care,

Kim

Thanks, Kim.

ABSOLUTELY they don't get it! And if nothing else today, this is what WH proved today. When D18 told him I wasn't coming out, he said, "This is why I left. This kind of abuse."

He still thinks it's about ME. No accountability for his actions whatsoever. I am trying to protect myself, as well as my love for this man, and somehow it's "abuse". UNBELIEVABLE!

I've been mulling over this for a while now and gone from being absolutely incensed at his accusation of "abuse" and the fact that he is still fogbound, to really wondering if he is just SO oblivious that Plan B is pointless. I mean... what good can it be doing if he thinks I'm just giving him the silent treatment and doesn't UNDERSTAND (despite the PBL that I sent him - twice!) that all he has to do is end the A?

Has anyone else ever been in this position? Can I get some input on this?

Mimi

may I use this on a thread I have going on JFO?





I think this us very useful infro for BW dealing with a certain type of WH... the type that like to be seen as solid upstanding citizens

edit:

Mimi

I went ahead assuming you are fine with it

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...ID=#Post3007487

Pep

RT

about the son living with WH ~~~> AKA "Dad"

when you are able to do so .... try painting a word picture for your son

use one of his interests ... say for instance, sports, cars, animals ... whatever it is that interests him

then paint a word picture something like this (but you fill in the details as you go)

I wanted to tell you son, about this friend of mine. She has a son a year older than you who also likes (activity). She was telling me that her son had problems with another kid (on the team, in the group, whatever fits) and this other kid told some really big lies about her son. This other kid said things about her son on MY SPACE that were not only false, but he spread these rumors around to everyone, which made her son look like a fool to all his other friends. This other kid was a really smooth liar, and he sounded so believable. Now guess what? Their (teacher, coach, whatever) is expecting these two kids to be buddies on an upcoming field trip to (place). My friend's son does not want to go because he KNOWS the other kid is STILL TELLING LIES and trying to RUIN his life! Wow. His Mom asked me if I think she should make her son go to (event). What do you think? Is his Mom wrong for insisting her son hang out with that other kid against his will?

Sometimes ... creating a word picture is more effective to communicate the dilemma than using logic to educate...

when your son gives his opinion about the other Mom FORCING her kid to go against his will ... tell him .... this story is my story. I am the boy who's reputation got ruined on MY SPACE ... I don't want to be forced to interact with the people trying to deliberately ruin me.

hope this helps

Pep

IMHO, you are doing GREAT!! I support your current mindset regarding your WH!! IMO, YOU GET IT!!!

In reality, as sad as it is to accept this, YOU ARE YOUR CHILDREN'S ONLY PARENT right now. Your WH is an addict. It's unfortunate that your one child is staying with him...not criticizing you for this, BTW. His parenting abilities are well-evidenced by his treatment of your 11 y.o. His main focus now is the OW, getting his constant fix from her, continuing his A....

Remember he wants to see you in order to somehow gain some RELIEF from the pain of Plan B. He wants to cake-eat. The OW is unable to meet all of his ENs and he wants some of you. His desperate efforts to try to see you are GOOD NEWS!! Just a glimpse of you will be like medicine to him. You do not want to allow him this remedy. So stay vigilant in your Plan B..just like you are doing...DARK AS NIGHT!! All that stuff about you being abusive is BULL CRAP..designed to get you to back down...

REMAIN VIGILANT IN YOUR FIGHT!! STAY ON YOUR HORSE!! DO NOT BACK DOWN ONE BIT FOR HIM!!!

Sure this is awful for your children However, you did not cause this. Your WH decided to abandon his family. You are fighting for your marriage and family. Your children's hardships are the some of the casualties of war. However, at least, they have YOU. Their father, IMO, is not really available to them now. You are doing what a mother needs to do now to take care of them. They do not have to understand this..can't really understand this now.

There will be ample time for healing..in due time...

Nothing that you can do... in keeping with Plan B... can be worse than what he has done....worse than what he is doing...

Mimi, I am staying on the horse! In the past few months I have woken up to his bulldust and the "abuse" accusation doesn't push my buttons any more, so it'll take a LOT for me to back down. (Besides, as my sister says, if I'm so abusive, why does me being dark disturb him so? Victims of abuse, when they leave their abusers, are relieved and thankful not to have to deal with their abusers ever again!)

Other than that... WH does not GET to dictate the conditions for our R. He said he doesn't want me any more? Fine, that's it. He doesn't get me. I don't want his pathetic crumbs. I need my husband, I need a real man, not this WH. If he wants ANY kind of in to me he knows what to do.

There's also this:


Oh, Mimi this sentence gave me SUCH a lift. Thank you so, so much. It means a lot. Because I know I'm making mistakes, but I am trying so hard. And I've chosen to take the high road through all of this. I have NEVER criticized WH to the children (or anyone else, for that matter) and have tried not to make things any more difficult for them.

Thanks Pep for that GREAT suggestion. Absolutely invaluable advice, and I will remember that in future, to be sure.

Aside from WH, I am pleased to report that S16 and I had a lovely talk yesterday. Nothing too heavy - I did NOT want to weigh him down again - but it was *heartfelt*, and we had a huge hug and a few laughs too. Although I have made some tough decisions, I humbled myself about my behavior last week, and he was forgiving, compassionate, and (ironically) very understanding. I also told him I am happy to talk to him any time; if he has anything he wants to ask me, I will answer him honestly.

S16 and I were doing GREAT until this happened and I want to get back to that. I intend to continue to be there for him; we have contact every day, he comes over a couple times a week, he goes on holidays with us, if he's sick I bring him home and make him chicken soup, and all kinds of other things. I know that no one can take my place. I also know that the thousands of little selfless things I do for my children, every day, will outweigh - if not now, then in future - something like not going to one concert.

Thank you all so much for your input on this. I admire you all so much and I have listened to everything all of you have said.