I am having a very bad week. I am beyond Plan B. My tanks are empty. I do not believe it works on my CH. Perhaps, it's time for the next step.

CH has been doing some things that are making me feel extremely vulnerable financially. Not big things but not good indications. On D-day, I told him that if he started dinking with the money, I would be hiring a pit bull. The time has come. In retrospect, I probably should have gotten a separation agreement long ago. CH has been, well, not open and honest but generous. Generous but controlling and erratic. I feel a change in the wind and it's a bitter wind.

Recently, we have had dinner a couple of times. It has become clear that our relationship needs...resolving? closure? a stiff dose of reality? The fog is as deep now as it was 18 months ago. CH has absolutely no short-term memory. He denies everything. He didn't try to move monies around. There's nothing going with OW. He hasn't ignored his children. He has done nothing wrong. He believes he is and always has been an outstanding, supportive and protective husband and father. He has conveniently forgotten everything. For years, he's heaped neglect upon us. His track record as a father and husband is not good. The details are just too painful for me to go into it. Perhaps the love just isn't there to get us through this.

This week, he has admitted that he doesn't want to be married to me. Can't say why. Everything is apparently my fault since he's such a model husband. In his mind, good provider=good husband. (Helpful, yes but not quite the whole ball of wax.) I think he may have decided this BEFORE D-day but has strung us all along. He doesn't have the balls to do anything about it. It's all passive-aggressive behavior and conflict avoidance.

At this point, I can look at him across a table and feel almost nothing. I see a man who cannot be trusted. A man who gives his children minimal attention. I'm completely sure that OW is still in the picture. He says not but won't do anything about a NC letter.In fact, CH says he can't sign a PBL because she'll charge him with sexual harrassment. Apparently, this wouldn't be blackmail.

I believe CH is one of those people who needs radical medicine. I owe it to myself to get a life. We need to nail down how we're going to support our college-aged kids. Right now, the poor boys don't know what what's going to happen to their education. They feel vulnerable too. DD needs a father. I don't think CH will initiate this relationship until a parenting plan is in place.

Could things change? Possibly but I'm not having a lobatomy any time soon. I think CH is finally realizing that he has lost control. Conflict avoidance will not do. I am now saying what I need. He understands the points for recovery as detailed in my Plan B letter. He just chooses to ignore them. I'm now saying that this is not okay. If he came in with the attitude, "Whatever it takes for as long as it takes", things could be very different. If he took some ownership of the pain and the problems, it would be different. Maybe this is all he has to give.

A long sad story. Thanks to everyone for the support I've gotten at MB. I guess, I've failed you, Mimi.

NO WAY!!! You continue to be in the "circle of trust" ..one of my girls!!!

I support you living your life to the fullest..the way that YOU CHOOSE to live it...

People misunderstand me.

I fully understand and accept that all marriages will not be saved..all marriages should not be saved...

I never got there so have never walked in your shoes....

Don't leave MBers...

You remain part of the family...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

pit bull = good idea at this time

IN MY OPINION

so sorry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Pep

Grapegirl,

We all know that every story here is not a success story where the couple recovers and lives happily ever after. Just because you have reached the point where your feelings for WH are impassive does not mean failure.

I have read many of your posts here and you have grown and you are strong. Now, no matter what happens you can hold your head up and honestly say that you gave your marriage every chance at recovering but that ultimately even that wasn't enough.

All the best to you.

Who

I second all! You did all you could do. And that's all you could ever hope for. You'll have no regrets.

Just sit back and wait a tad....before doing anything legal. Just detach a while ..give it a bit of time and if no banana, it's just not getting it for you despite moving heaven and earth, then you forge ahead legally.

pit bulls are good btw <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((Grapegirl))))

Grapegirl --

Well, I know you've tried long and hard on this one. But much in your post confuses me:





Which is it?





Why should he meet the standards outlined in PBL when you haven't? You have renewed contact without him meeting the requirements.

I'm not attacking you, and I know your story is a long and complicated one. But there are probably a few other readers who are confused.

Grape..has wanted to do this HER WAY..not sure why...

I'm often confused myself. I will admit to being a maverick. After 18 months, I am very sick of the whole thing. Steve Harley says that you Plan B until you run out of gas. My tanks are empty.

CH understands very well the roadmap for recovering our marriage. The points are very simple and clear: NC with OW, counseling and complete honesty about his thoughts, actions, whereabouts and finances. Seems pretty simple and he truly knows what to do. I just don't believe he cares to.

CH has a history of smoke and mirrors. Very, very big on conflict avoidance. He is the one who wants me to believe that there isn't anything going on with OW. He has chosen a counselor but just can't seem to make time to setup an appointment. CH has been doing some monetary transactions without my knowledge. Said that he couldn't reach me although I carry my cellphone at all times. Can't contact me through my intermediary.

All of this happened while I was in Plan B.

At this point, I know he is still seeing OW, refuses to go to see the counselor and is not honest about anything.

1-2-3 STRIKES. Sounds like CH just might be out.

We can stay in Plan B until our death beds. We can wait until our CS comes around one way or another. Or we can stick our noses tentatively out of the shell. I broke Plan B because I had to speak to him to know what I need to know. The alternative is to have him served with D-papers out of the blue. I wanted to hear it out of his mouth that he refuses to do counseling. I wanted to see his reaction to a request to sign a No Contact letter. I wanted an explanation about finances. His answers and actions resonated throughout my soul.

Five weeks ago, DS and DD had dinner with their father. (And they haven't seen him since...) DS, a kid who is one of the most honest, forthright people I know, said that during the dinner, his sister looked at their dad and with tears in her eyes said, "Dad, when are you coming home?" DS "can't remember" what CH said. Later, CH promised DD that we'd all go on vacation together "even Mom."

On Monday night, CH denied that DD said anything like that. It never happened. He doesn't believe he's stringing anybody along. Do you think it's delusion, denial or simple fog? Does it say, "Grape, listen to your head."

At that time, he also finally admitted that he did not want to be my husband. He wants to dissolve our marriage through mediation. He sees no need for him to do counseling. And no, he's not dumping me because he'll always take care of me and be my friend.

The next stop is not more Plan B. The next stop is action. It's pee or get off the pot time. It's time to protect my family. This is CH big wakeup call. I've been thinking about the person who months ago wrote a post entitled, "Stick me with a fork, I'm done."

There has to come a time when one says, "I will not accept this anymore. I will not settle for crumbs and false rays of hope."

I have the highest regard for MB principals. I love Plan B. I certainly slept a whole lot better during Plan B. I think MB works better when there is a good marriage detailed by infidelity. I look at my journals from years past and I can see we've had long standing problems. Part of this was conflict avoidance on both of our parts and also my acceptance of a husband who never gave the protection, love, respect, communication and time required for a successful marriage. I do not recall the spark of passion and love Mimi talks about. I learned from the example of my mom. It took her 51 years to figure it out. It's taken me 29. I want my daughter to expect and give MB behavior from the very beginning.

This is a complicated, confusing issue. I welcome the comments. It helps me clarify my thinking.

Well, here's one comment. You might want to look at eav's thread about "why stay dark in Plan B."

I'm still in Plan B, post-divorce. Fortunately, stepkids are old enough to visit me independently, which would be the only potential reason for contact.

Plan B protects ME. It protects me from all the mental racing-around you are doing, which is draining and debilitating -- and that Slammed is now deeply enmeshed in.

I didn't have to anything "out of his own mouth," as you say. He hadn't met PBL conditions. I didn't want to hear why he hadn't. I didn't want to hear the lies and justifications. That's what Plan B is for. It was enough that he hadn't. I would know if he had -- without his even telling me. I wasn't going to "help" him meet the conditions, or urge him to meet the conditions. If he didn't have the gumption to move out of OW's house (and he's disabled, so it wouldn't be easy), then he wasn't going to have the gumption to confront who he's become and work on recovery. The longer he waited, the tougher the way back was going to become. I said we would "talk" if he dumped the loser -- but I have no desire to even talk to him now.

Unfortunately, due to a concert series, I've had the misfortunate to be in the same room with "them" twice in the last week. It looks bad. He looks in rotten health. Although they make a mild pretense of solidarity around me, the pretense is more unconvincing than it ever was. I don't see the insecure lovey-dovey stuff they used to do around me. They act like deeply disillusioned people. But who knows? Indeed, who cares?

They act WEIRD around me. She was kind of stalking me during intermission and after the performance -- he was nowhere to be seen. At one point I was laughing and talking with someone, I looked up and he was staring at me in a weird and pointed way. What was the point?

It's all very unsettling. I can tell something is going on. But I really don't care about the subtext. I don't want him back with his sackload of problems. All the odd behavior strikes me as if I am watching some sort of science fiction movie -- a movie in a foreign language.

That, to my mind, is the benefit of Plan B. It takes you away from the drama. You need to get out of the drama, grapegirl, whether you divorce or not. It takes too much of your steam. Let him dree his weird without you.

AM:

I gain so much from reading your posts!!

You exude such strength that I really admire..

I also love your way with words...

Thanks.

Thanks.

Mimi, I do sense, in so many of these posts by BSs who are not in a solid Plan B, the wish to tell their side to the deeply fogged WSs, the wish to be right, the wish to have the WSs feel and acknowledge their pain.

For those of us whose WSs do not return, I think a good Plan B makes you realize, at a very deep level, that there is nothing to "prove," nothing to "teach," because nobody except the BS has or wants to learn anything.

Yes, the urges to tell them off still come and go. But more and more you don't want to waste your breath. You don't want to know what's going on in the other world -- you know, at a deep level, that the news is bad (for THEM, not you), and it will get worse before it gets better.

Grapegirl, I'd love to see you get to that point. I don't think your WH is close to getting the picture. He seems closer at times, but he's still trying to make 58 cents into a buck.

To extend the metaphor, the buck is no longer good enough in any case. The price went up to ten dollars, and it increases with interest daily. The gap between what he's done and the effort he needs to make keeps getting wider. And all he offers, at best, is spin.

And you need to get wings.

I really do understand the need for Plan B. I also think that CH cannot be educated. After Monday, I know that for sure.

I see breaking Plan B as part of what I must do to do everything I can do before I end it. Stupid? Sure but in my small mind, I need to do it do put to rest any niggly doubts. I've heard it from his own lips, not sifting it from the conflict avoiding rubble. It's also shock therapy. He has probably thought I'd take his garbage forever.

I can see what you are saying about Plan B after D. It makes perfect sense. I really appreciate the advice. The drama is 'way too much. I don't see how anybody who is involved with a cheater, has abandoned a solid life and tossed aside his wife and children can ever be too happy.

I, for one, do intend to be happy. I feel like I need to end this half life. I want to move forward to a new life. I know we tell our daughters that they don't need a man to make their life complete but having a loving, supporting partner does make your life richer.

Thanks AM

Grape:

You said...








I know we have had this conversation many times before because you have been consistent with this. I will make these points again to you though...

1. You cannot control anyone but yourself. You cannot do or say any particular thing to help your CH (as you say) to understand what he is doing or to change what he is doing. YOU ARE POWERLESS OVER HIM AND THIS AFFAIR!!

2. Breaking Plan B means that you do not want to work on your relationship any longer. Breaking Plan B will also not assist you in your own Recovery. How can it help you to deal with him? He will be the same old UGLY CH. Your approach of talking to him or whatever you plan to do in your interactions with him will not work, I think, to make you happy, your children happy and it definitely will not bring an end to his affair. YOU WILL FAIL...FEEL LIKE A FAILURE.

3. He is a CH. You cannot listen or believe ANYTHING he has to SAY. He is not a normal person that engages in a rational conversation. For him, ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.

I know and the actions say: dump the dude.

Curiously, I feel more peace since our last encounter than I have for months. I feel the path laid out in front of me. It's no longer a shadowy, scary, spooky trail. It's still a rough road with roots to trip and a few nettles but a sunnier, friendly place that looks like it goes somewhere. I am not as afraid of this road. If I need to take it, I will.

CH says, emphasis on says, he has left messages to make an appointment with the counselor. CH originally saw this counselor right after D-Day. I'm sure this is very scary for him. No counselor has ever told him what he wants to hear. This is his first trip to back any counselor including Steve Harley. I will be able to find out tomorrow if CH really has done this.

Our conversation scared the h3ll out of him. It was shock therapy. CH was pinned down in such a way he couldn't squirm away. He actually had to put into words the things he's been thinking. Maybe they sounded just as stupid to him as they do to everyone else. The next day, he showed more remorse than I have ever seen from him. In the back of his mind, I think he sees us as frozen, waiting for him to decide if he wants back in. Disposable. What a surprise to find me moving. He did not like seeing an unemotional woman of decision. I think some of Orchid's reverse babble got through.

My personal recovery is looking good. I feel more self-assured. I need to start thinking about the next school year and find there is no block in my thought process. I know that life goes on. Of course, there will be more days of tears. I can see another Plan B coming on after our business is concluded.

I know actions speak much louder than words, especially CS words. At this point, the filing process is only a little delayed.

See what I mean, grapegirl? Him, him, him. How he reacted, how you think he reacted, what he thought when he saw, etc., and how you are going to check up on him tomorrow.

If he really wants recovery, you won't have to spy on him to find out, or check up on him, or otherwise be his mommy.

You gotta get out of the mommy business. I'm not saying "dump him" or "don't dump him." I'm saying holding on in any sense, shape or form to see if this guy comes to his senses is ... well ... senseless. "Helping him" is just keeping you in delusory hopes.

So he goes to a counseling session? So what? That doesn't mean he's going to make an effort to recover. It simply means an effort is more likely. So he reads the Harley books. My own beloved Jabba did both. But he still didn't have the gumption to stop dialing OW. All the books in the world can't substitute for a real effort. This stuff is just preparation for an effort. And after a certain point, it's just a self-delusory stall.

Believe me, even in the deepest darkest depths of silence, you'll know when he's ready to get real. Surely he's smart enough to pick a family member or one of your friends if he gets serious -- and he won't need your prompting or sending the friend's address to him to figure this out. Is he a big boy or not?

All the prices went up on the hardware store. He's been messing around for far too long. I was going to say that your message should be: "Make my day." But that's wrong. The time for messages is long past. Stop trying to communicate with him. Stop looking for "good signs." Stop calling the Harleys to see if he followed through on promises. Stop. Stop. Stop.

It's time for you to cut the cord.

Grape:

You are confusing. You say you are at peace but yet you say that you had a bad week. You say that you are in a sunny, friendly place?

I agree with AM. I don't understand what is so relieving about your CH going to counseling? If he is not interested in working on your marriage, he can BS a counselor and you, Grape.

You make a lot of assumptions about HIS feelings, saying: "I'm sure this is scary for him".."In the back of his mind, he sees us as frozen"... How do you know how he feels and what he is thinking? Assumptions of yours, Grape...

Another Plan B it seems to me will be meaningless to him if you move in and out of having contact with him...

I thought you had decided to divorce. That really makes sense to me...more sense than what you are doing now...

What is your Plan? What are you doing? What do you anticipate as the outcome of these DISCUSSIONS with him? That he will be honest? That he will tell you his true feelings? That he will open up to a counselor? I think there's a slim chance that any of this will happen. If he were REALLY remorseful, he would get rid of the OW and come home to his family. Otherwise, he is continuing to BS you and you seem to have bought this...

IMO, he continues to come across as the standard, foggy, cake-eating WH..no big difference...

He relies on you to fix things..to try to resolve issues..and you have stepped up to the plate again rather than letting him go...

Sorry...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Although what you say is correct, perhaps some of my words were misunderstood. Thinking about dissolving my marriage has given me a bad week. It wasn't as bad as before my attny appointment but still very sad. The weekend before I saw the attny, I was in tears most of the time.

I'm not actually in a sunnier, friendlier place. I just see the path to divorce as a less scary road than it was before. Not long ago, the thought of a divorce made me want to bury my head under a dozen pillows. After seeing the need for action and seeing a lawyer, I feel much more comforted (?) resigned (?) proactive (?) with the process of ending my marriage. I understand the process better. Grape will come out okay. DD will be cared for. I worry about my boys but CH does say that their education is a priority with him. It won't be a cakewalk but it also won't be a disaster.

I appreciate your comments. I can see how I am not centered properly. This IS too much CH in my thoughts.

The paperwork is being put together as I type. The biggest question I need to figure out over the weekend is whether to file for a legal separation or go directly to the dissolution.

Now,that's something I really need advice about.

Grape:

I had a legal separation from almost the beginning of when my FWH left home in order to provide protection for myself and children. I knew the OW could have access to our funds or he would want to spend money on her. My goal for getting the LS was not to move towards divorce. I made that clear with the lawyer I finally used. My FWH agreed to use the same lawyer and agreed with everything I asked for...He didn't care...just as long as I would leave him alone and he could be with her...YUCK...

I guess if you are not sure about divorcing and mainly want to protect yourself legally go with the LS...

If you are pretty sure that you want to end your marriage, I would say divorce.

I never got to that point...