YOH,

No harm no foul, but I am the him, Eagle15. WW is Eagle15Tooo and I wish she would take your advice, and the rest on this thread. I would love to hear those three words from her again.

You are so right in everything you said, I would love it if she would do just that.

Thank you.

A couple of thoughts come to mind, some of which you may or may not want to hear.

First of all, you H desparaately needs to hear the continued "I'm sorry"s. If not word for word, at least some recognition for what you did. It is not like you spilled a cup of coffee where you can cleanit up and say I'm sorry and everything is just fine from then on. You have shattered the world he knew. To have a "get over it" attitude says to him that you don't consider that you didn't really do anything all that bad. He is hurting. His world will never be the same. He isn't trying to make you apologize over and over just to make you relive your mistake. He is living it everyday. For him, it is an ongoing pain, not something in the past. At least not yet. He wants some assurance from you that you are aware of that pain and are indeed remorseful about it. Not giving that to him just continues to inflict wounds. He is telling you what he needs.

As far as the "I Love You" thing, consider what love is. If you feel that love is that emotional high, maybe you don't love him. As to whether you should say it anyways, the opinions are mixed. I personally fall on the side that says you should because we all need to meet our spouses EN's whether or not we alwasy "Feel" like it. But if you feel love is a caring and a COMMITMENT, there is no legitimate reason not to tell him if that's what you feel.

Underlying all of this is perhaps the greater issue. An issue of wanting to hang on to control. The ILY are is your ace up the sleeve so to speak. Somthing you purposefully withold , afraid that if you play it, your advantage will be lost. Same with the I'm sorries. You can continue to want to keep this control, but I doubt your marriage will improve to much. It is a submission to each other thing. If we focus more on holding on to our control rather than relinquishing control and being willing to be vulnerable again, healing will have a hard time taking place. Things may get better on the surface, but this heart issue will surface again. Until you are truly broken about this and willing to give up all of these holdouts, you are fighting against an internal enemy.

There are some interesting things in your post, and in some of the responses.

“I have apologized sincerely to my H one time. I haven't been able to tell him that I love him at all.”

Two months since DDay is not very long. As already noted, don’t push yourself too hard. I did not hear a sorry until six months after DDay. It's better to mean it when you say it.

But, you also write, “Pre-A, I had not told my H I loved him in many, many years.”

Are you saying your current feelings for your H are pretty much the same as they have always been? Have you EVER loved him, as you say, romantically? It’s hard to tell from your post, but it kind of sounds as if you don’t think you have. At least, not in a very long time preceding your A.

“He has expressed a need to hear these things, even though my actions show sincere efforts of seeking forgiveness, remorse, and commitment to recovery. I want to be able to tell him these things, but just can't! Why is this so?! “

You have not told him these kinds of romantic things, maybe never. But now suddenly for the first time you want to. OK, so you are a person for whom fake it ‘till you make it does not work. Long held habits are often difficult to change. But it’s still just habit. Change it anyway, a little bit at a time.

You know, it sound like it’s your H who should have had the A. When have you met his EN’s in your M? There is a lot left unsaid here. You have for a long time not met his expressed EN and still cannot even now. Yet you had the A, not him. Are you aware that according to the MB theroy of ENs you are setting him up to have an A? Is this what you want?

MB methods require you to meet his EN’s. If you rarely have, as you admitted, and still cannot, he deserves to hear this truth from you.

Some of the advice you are getting on this thread is rather contrary to MB methods. In all fairness, you should also know that for the one thread Mortarman refers to about not having to say you are sorry more than once, there are 1000 threads strongly recommending the WS must say they are sorry as often and for as long as it takes. (For some reason, WHs are told this much more often than WWs).

“Inside I truly feel that I am sorry. I feel caring love for my H (not romantic love yet, but SH says that'll come in time). So why the h*** can't I tell my H these things? And I should be able to tell him these things on a routine basis, right?!”

But again, you never did. Why do you think you could suddenly start? Not realistic. It takes time to change habits. You should be in Plan A, before your H has an A.

If you could quantify your remorse right now, where would it be on, say, a scale of 1 to 10? A 5? And where was it a month ago, a 2? Generally, WS remorse rises quickly after DDay, peaks at about 6 months to a year and then slowly levels off. It may help if you can gauge your true feelings a little better. But remember, feelings are neither right nor wrong, they just are. Don’t beat yourself up for having or not having any particular feeling. It is actions that count. However, if in the end you find you are not really remorseful for your A, or you can't act towards your H with love, you should level with him and let him decide the direction of the next stage of his life. Don’t be dishonest with him any more.

“I was raised in a home that did not show emotion well at all. My parents did not tell me they loved me until after my dad had a stroke, I was 26 years old. BUT, I do not want to use this as an excuse not to change, I want to change history here, I just need to know how. “

Are you in IC? FOO issues are usually impossible to deal with by yourself.


With prayers,

KJ,

You have had some great responses to your questions. I thought I would take a crack at it. As far as developing the abilitiy to say "I love you." I really liked Pep's suggestion. I will tell you that I first started reading this site because my W of 30 years is very much like you. She does NOT say "I love you" to me, but will respond to mine with "ILY, too". It really got to the point I felt I was nothing but a pay check to her, and then I found this site, and my perspective changed considerably.

So let's examine what you have said.
As suggested, part of this is your are not ready. But permit to ask you what is your goal? Is it to remain married to your H? If so why? Why do you want him to forgive you and love you and remain married to you?

He may want to hear "I love you" from you, I still do with my W although I understand her better and expect to never really hear it from her in my life, but what he really wants to hear are the answers to the questions I asked above.

Why do you value him? Of what value to you and your life is he? Why do you care if he loves you or not? Why do you want him in your life?

These answers should start to be come clear to you as you move out of withdrawal, and at two months you are still in a level of withdrawal probably. Don't lie to him, but consider sitting down and writing to him your thoughts and feelings. It would be a gift to him that he can see and consider over and over again when the deep doubts and fears overcome him.

What he is asking you, is "are you there?" "Can I depend on your?" He needs reassurance, and ILY is a short form of that. But, in your case it is a difficult form. So for you the long form may be better and that includes spelling out what he is to you and your life and why you want to share your life with him.

Do you see my perspective on this?


My thoughts is admit to yourself that you have never done this with your H, but find ways to express your feelings to him, written, cards, actions, but with details of how you actually feel. He needs to know how you feel. His need for ILY is like taking your temperature. He wants to know if you are OK with him. Is he doing things well, or not? Is he meeting your needs and being as good an H as you would like. In your case as I said above, being lazy and saying ILY just doesn't work for you. Perhaps it is because of the timing, 2 months out, but as you suggest it is more. So rather than change your expressions to him, expand them and give them voice in speech or written word.

You then came back and said
Well, yes right? Except if you don't mean you are sorry then you are lying to your H again. It sounds like your pride is getting in your W here. But, consider that most BS's get tired of "I'm sorry" because it really reveals nothing to them. Are you sorry you got caught? Are you sorry you hurt yourself? Are you sorry he feels bad, but not sorry for what you did? "I'm sorry" is really pretty lame, but again it is shorthand.

Do you know what I have observed over the years here? The marriages that heal the best are the ones where the WS faces things solidly and actually brings up the A, asks the BS how they are feeling what they are thinking, and tries to ease their pain and uncertaintly with compassion, respect, actions, and openness.

More than I'm sorry, your H needs you to not shy away from this, but when you sense he is down, sit him down, look him in the eye, and say "OK, speak up, what is bothering you?" And then listen carefully, and respectfully to them talk. Offer support, and understanding. This is NOT saying "I'm sorry." This is actually doing something that shows,you are sorry. Does this make sense?


Short answer is yes it is. Because what you vowed to do when you married is love your H to "death do us part." You did not promise to "feel in love with him" you promised to LOVE him as in the verb to love. It is an action, it is something you conciously decide to do. That is why you can make that promise when you married. You cannot promise to "feel" in love, but you can promise to LOVE.

Do you see the difference? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Every now and then, a post hits me where it counts, in my heart. Your post was honest, truthful and heartfelt. My H read it, and printed it off, so we can both re-read it whenever we need inspiration.

Many people on here do not realize we know so little about each other's circumstances, yet they take what they read here and make assumptions that could not be further from the truth. I admitted to my weakaness, and just wanted advice on how to make myself a better person and a better wife. You did that. Thank you.

God bless,

KJ

KJ,

It is my pleasure to help you AND your H. Sometimes we tend to make things too complicated, and sometimes the shorthand of the day, is not enough.

I am glad it was of help, sometime you will have to tell me what resonated with you.

One thing you should realize, is that we all have to work off of assumptions, with regard to posters here, the easy way to handle it, is to point out what assumptions don't apply. You will get better advice. Personally, I LIKE to hear where my assumptions are incorrect. We all frame our initial responses to posters here based on assumptions. But, as we get feedback, the assumptions become more accurate and the advice better.

You will notice that long time posters here seem to KNOW one another. It is because gradually our assumptions about one another have through feedback been honed and become more accurate.

Now interestingly this has a corrolary in your marriage which is why I brought it up and why I asked you for feedback besides your very nice compliments. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

You assumed that your H just wanted to her ILY. He assumed that by asking you to say you do, that you understood what he REALLY needed. Am I right? Do you see why this site talks about communications, Love busters (DJ's being the worst), radical honesty, and POJA? The POJA is simply a negotiating tool that will help the real issues come to the table.

But, the real thing Harley noticed is that people often thought they were meeting one anothers needs and they were wrong. Hence the EN questionaire.

You and your H need to practice this. You must also come to realize that this man really does love you, and yes respect you. He may not respect what you did, but YOU??? Oh Yeah! How could I make such an assumption?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He has stayed to fight for this marriage and YOU.

KJ, again thank you for the compliment, but really it is you two that are doing all of the work. It that were not true, my words would have no meaning to either of you.

God Bless,

JL

How are you doing with this? Just wondering. Thanks for all the time you have put into helping me! ...oops, SORRY was that too much! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry,

Geeze, where'd ya dig this post out of?! Well, I'm glad you did, 'cuz it makes me think about my progress (or lack thereof!)

I took someone's advice, and began sending my H cards and notes that verbalize "I'm sorry", and "I love you". It's like a first step toward being able to vocalize it. This is going well, my H says he appreciates the words, even tho' they're in writing.

What else can I say, that's all the further I've gotten. Not using this as an excuse, but I do believe my upbringing has a lot to do with my inability to verbalize these statements to my H. I'll keep pluggin' away at it tho'!!

Thanks for your concern, it's appreciated.

KJ

P.S. The other day on your post, I almost told you I was missing our exchanges, but then thought better of it because I figured Nikko would reach right through my 'puter screen and attack!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> But seriously, I'm glad you weren't on here after I learned how busy you were meeting your wife's EN's! Good for you!! Keep it up!!

So KJ,,,

What have you been thinking these days? Have you tried to tell your H what you like about him, what you appreciate about him and what he does? He may well need that more than you can realize right now.

Also waiting on your feedback. Tapping fingers on his desk. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I have been mostly posting in General Questions II, so didn't read your post until today! Oh my, your fingers must be bloody by now!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I do apologize.

I have been doing all the things you mentioned, hopefully enough. My H and I have had many good days in a row now (knocking on wood here!). We spend A LOT of time together, that has really helped. SH has helped immensely too. We have another appt. in the morning. We can't afford to keep talking to him every week, so we're gonna ask him for a month's worth of "homework" (that's what we call the assignments Steve gives us to do before our next meeting), and see if once per month works okay for us.

I get very worried about feeling so positive about our recovery. It's only been about 10 weeks. I see people on this forum that've been here for 2 years or more, and are still struggling. That scares me, I don't want to be in their shoes.

I'm done posting on GQII. The people here are very different, so many of them so far from even beginning recovery. I find things much more beneficial to me in the "recovery" part of this forum.

My next big goal is to be able to tell my H I love him and that I am sorry. I told him sorry right after d-day, but haven't been able to since. And I haven't told him I love you for many, many years. I've gotten him cards and wrote personal notes that say these things, but just haven't got to the point where I can verbalize these emotions. This is my biggest frustration at this point in our recovery.

You probably didn't expect such a long reply! I am just so happy to be back in "Recovery" and out of the GQII madness! And it is always an honor receiving a post from you. Thank you for checking in on me, it means the world.

God's blessings to you also,

KJ

Just stopped by to see how thing were on your end?

ps- BYE-BYE Chris ...Hello Elliot! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

KJ,

Been very busy lately. I have a thought. You have sent him cards right? That seems to be going well. But, you are still stuck on telling him in words right? Ok, try a different step. Go up to him and simply hug him or just simply put your hand on him (touch him in some manner) and look into his eyes. And ask him if he knows what you are trying to say? You have no idea the power of touch, especially on men. But, it will affect you as well.

You have built many barriers, and they won't come down all at once. But, more important when you do say ILY it will have meaning, but what you are learning is other ways to say it. What your H has to learn is to see the other ways you can and do say it. It was a lesson I had to learn, and I learned it here. My W is NOT one to say ILY either. I have learned her other ways of saying it and for her it is via cards and doing things for me.

It makes it no less valid, I just had to learn to look in the right places. You and your H need to learn about one another so that you can look in the right places to find out what you need to know, and so you can convey what you need to convey.

I have yet to meet a human being or even a pet, that did NOT need to know they were loved and cared for by someone else. Your H is no exception and neither are you. What is NOT written in stone is how this information is conveyed. This requires you two to work together so that you two have your own signals and ways to communicating. Most everyone expects that the movies depict how people do it. Nothing could be further from the truth, especially when you consider the rate actors divorce. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

As you and your H become a team, you two will develop your own shorthand. You will be able to "tell" him you are sorry and love him many ways when this is over, and perhaps the least used will be verbal. The goal of all of this is for you to be able to KNOW that your H loves you and needs you, and for him to KNOW that you love him and need him.

Talk to SH about this at your next appointment. I am not saying abandon your efforts for verbal exchange because I suspect there is more than reluctance to say these things at work, but barriers built up during your childhood that must be dismantled.

You can do this, and when you do, I think you and your H are going to have a glorious marriage. You show all of the traits of a wonderful and caring person. And clearly your H is deeply attached to you as well. You don't realize how much you two have going for you...YET. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

KJ I am in the opposite position, the BS. HAving said that however, I am in a very similar situation regarding my feelings for my H. Things had not been going well for quite some time, alot of resentment had built up on my part, then the A.

We are in MC, second time around, he is definitely making some changes but also still having a difficult time making me a priority in his decision making processes. This is obviously hurtful and difficult to deal with ie..will he ever be able to become a true partner in this relationship?

I have not been able to say ILY for almost 1.5yrs. I am also not comfortable with SF and we have not been together for quite some time(one of his reasons for A).

I can totally relate to your comment about loving him in a caring way. I don't want to see him hurt, I still am very concerned about his well being, BUT the passion of love is not present.(I've been around a while, I'm not looking for fireworks but passion nonetheless).

I almost feel like he's a close friend. How did you accomplish the SF without the emotion being present? Any tips would be appreciated.

apl,

Well, this is gonna sound too easy, but I just did it. That's how SF began to be enjoyable for me and my H. The behavioralist approach is to repeat a behavior 21 times in 31 days in order for the behavior to become a habit.

For me, the caring love was enough to make me want to meet my H's high priority EN of SF. The passion takes time, but it does come.

An update on the ILY's and the I'm sorry's.... I still haven't said the words ILY, but have written them and have tried to show him in other ways. I've said "I'm sorry" only twice since d-day, but again, try to show it in other ways. I'd like to believe I'm not being quite so hard on myself about these "words," but it's still such a huge source of guilt. I know, I know, practice what I preach, 21 times in 31 days! I'd settle for once in one day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

All my best,

KJ

KJ, do you want the "biblical" answer, the "how to?"

Consider why you love Jesus.

Consider why you love your husband.

Remember, God has commanded husbands to love their wives.
God has NOT commanded wives to love their husbands.'
God has promised that the love HE has for each of you will be reflected in your lives as you walk closer to Him.

Love has this "funny way" of reproducing itself and being reflected back in response to receiving love.

God bless.

KJ, you're right, it sounds easy. I will grit my teeth and give it a try.

Do you now "feel" love for your H? Writing is definitely a good start so don't be so tough on yourself, you did a good thing.

Even baby steps bring us closer to where we want to be.

KJ,

this is a very enlightening thread. Thank you for starting it.

apl,

I feel "caring love" for my H. So far, not too much "romantic love." SH tells me this WILL come, but that my H and I are still quite early into our recovery, so I shouldn't be too hard on myself about this. It still frustrates me beyond comprehension. I WANT to say it, I JUST CAN'T!! Everytime I open my mouth to say it, I turn into this blubbering idiot and nothing comes out. Nothing.

Try not to grit your teeth hunny, unless it's because you're having an O!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Seriously, try getting yourself "in the mood" for sex. There are MANY helpful books about how to do this, although I can't recommend one 'cuz I've never had the need, my imagination is very vivid!

I have learned a lot through this thread too. Most importantly, I'm gaining strength toward my goal.

If it's not too much to ask, let me know how your first "encounter" goes!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

KJ

KJ, thanks so much for the encouragement. I feel ridiculously immature for asking this but how did you deal with the idea of fulfilling his needs, SF, before he met any of your EN's? I feel very resentful.

I learned a new technique in IC for the ILY issue. Try visualizing yourself saying it to your H and follow the scenario through....what do you see happening after you say it? Face the fear (I think that's the title of a book somewhere). I think part of my fear is that all the defenses come down, I give him what he needs even though it's difficult for me and then he turns around and does somethingelse stupid and I have to start all over again.

My H is not as evolved as yours, he's still very defensive about any inappropriteness on his part and he wants to be reassured that he's a good person. I still feel like I'm dealing with a toddler sometimes. He's got the poor me thing down pat.

KJ,

Can you tell yourself "I love you"?

Can you tell yourself "I'm sorry"?

LA