In a discussion this morning I mentioned to WW that I had a MC session with SH at 10:30 this morning. I asked her if she would be willing to talk to him instead of me this morning to determine of there was hope for our marriage. I said I believe we can resolve the issues in our marriage and have a better marriage that we ever thought possible. I then left to get some coffee and give her time to think. When I got back the excuses started:

WW: ”I’m suppose to go the health club with a friend today and I don’t know what time we are planning to go”.

ME: I had no comment to that and just looked at her.

WW: If you need an answer now then “No I don’t have anything to say to a MC”. If you could “read” me you would know not to asked me this right now.

ME: If this isn’t a good time, please give me a date and I set It up for then.

WW: Why does everything have to be on your time schedule?

ME: It’s been 2 months of not talking about what is going on how long am I suppose to wait.

WW: You have no empathy for me, I have no job, no way to support myself and am trying to publish a book.

ME: I’m not asking for you to make a decision about or marriage today. I’m asking for you to just talk to some so we can start some kind of dialog.

WW: You push me and want a decision know. Then today my decision is call a lawyer and lets get a D. There you have your answer. You have no idea where I’m at and if you had some empathy would see that.

ME: WW, you speak of empathy as if it is a one way street. For just one minute try and flip our situations around. I have given you space for the last 2 months with all that is going on. Empathize with where I’m at for just one second and pretend our rolls are reversed, how would you feel if you were me?

I just can’t believe she is going to let this marriage and family fall apart without the least amount of effort in trying to save it.

Just a gut wrenching defeated feeling!

Hopefully SH will have some insight for me today.

Qbert.

I suggest you stop trying to get her to talk to SH or to read any MB material.

WSs cannot be educated until they WANT to be.

SH suggested you ask her. I'll bet he didn't intend for you to keep trying after the first refusal. Continued attempts are nothing but LBs. Relate this to Steve and I'll bet he agrees. Tell him I said "Hi." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

WAT, you were right and I should not have pushed!

WW called and said she would take the telephone conference with SH. I went home and talked to her and she opened up for the first time about how she is feeling. She has very conflicting feelings but in general feels that she needs to be on her own. Believes that we are great parents and have raised two great kids, but can’t see herself living the way our marriage is today forever. I told her I had no desire maintain our relationship as it currently stands and want to grow closer together. She was crying and said in me she was losing her best friend.

After the phone session with SH she told me it was a complete waste of time and she told SH she wouldn't be talking to him again. She didn’t buy into the whole Love Bank theory except to tell SH at the end of the session that their conversation depleted her love bank. When SH asked why she wouldn’t want to work on the marriage, she said she has put 17 years into the marriage and has nothing else to give and has no desire or time to "work on it". She told me she thinks we should hire a lawyer and get this over with.

I have a session with SH tomorrow morning and hopefully he can give me some ideas so this marriage and family survive.

This is heart wrenching!

Qbert

Don't be discouraged.

If she had done an about face with Steve, we all would have been knocked off our feet!

In other words, she's following the pattern.

What Steve will tell you tomorrow is that he hopefully planted some seeds.

Your job will be to cultivate the seeds with Plan A and NO LOVE BUSTERS!

Please be patient.

If she spews venom and threatens to hire a lawyer, your response should be, "I understand your concern."

Your mantra should be, "I want to preserve our marriage and our family and all my actions will be in that direction."


That was a good response. Acknowledge that the "old" marriage was faulty. This is exactly why you're struggling now. But you have a plan to build a new marriage better than your wildest dreams.

Hang tough.

WAT

Thanks for the encouragement WAT.

WW and I had our first extend conversation about the state of our marriage this evening after kids went to bed. Started out very negative but I just listened and tried the best I could not be judgmental and keep my trap shut. OM discussion came up and she tried to down play it. Said there was no future with OM (“He’s 12 years older than me, never been married and has no kids. So he’s in a completely different place than me”) and really tried to focus on their friendship, work calibration and downplayed any EA/PA. No apologies on her side. It’s really hard to hold your tongue when you’re hurting from the betrayal and WW doesn’t even acknowledge that they have hurt you. I did apologize for not meeting her emotional needs throughout our marriage but made sure that I did not give her an out for her actions and decisions. I said that I will continue to act as if this marriage can be saved.

The most positive comment she made was that she didn’t know how to react to my “radical change” and it confuses her. YES…. I’m doing something right!

Based on what she said this morning about her conversation with SH, I thought it was a total bust. But she did admit that she briefly looked at the MB website. Did say that if she was looking to save the marriage then this might be the way to go, but since she is looking at other options it was not much use to her. Hope this is all brain fog and in reality it’s a step in the right direction.

Maybe this ship has just got a bucket for bailing! Captain is still not onboard but I have thrown her the life preserver.

It will be interesting to get SH’s take on WW’s position tomorrow.

Qbert.

Q - you're doing very well.

This could be good or bad - or cyclical.

My XW remarked that it was completely ludicrous that she and OM could build a castle in the sky. All the while she was planning it. For her, the "ludicrous" statement was a ploy to throw me off the trail - since she was denying an affair.

I've heard similar descriptions from other BSs.

OTOH, your wife may be sincere - unless she's not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bottom line, take these statements with a grain of salt. WSs are on mental roller coasters as much as BSs are on emotional ones. Their brains have been stirred.

The "radical change" comment, though, is likely sincere. Has she accused you of doing this only temporarily? She will. Be ready with a mea culpa - it took this huge wakeup call for you to realize your inadequate contributions to the marriage. That and consistency over time is the only way to make your case.

As always, bounce all this off Steve.

WAT

Very similar thinking to how my WH reacted. He said "If I wouldn't have changed(attitude, actions, etc.) so much that would have made things so much easier."(of course for him). After I discovered the A, I left for a day & came back with a renewed passion for my M. A realization of all the things I had done to contribute to the atmosphere of the A. I instinctively started doing a Plan A.

How did your session go with Steve today?

Kim

Hi Kim,

It was an interesting session with Steve. Apparently my WW was not telling me the complete truth about her session with Steve on Tuesday (imagine that!). Contrary to what WW said, she was engaged in the conversation. Because she had not read any of the books, Steve told her the basics of what it requires to have a happy marriage and where we failed as a couple to maintain each other EN’s. With each idea Steve asked her if she agreed with the concept and she said she did. One of her big hang-ups is she says after 17 years she doesn’t have the time or energy to work on this marriage (Funny, she has plenty of time and effort to have a secrete second life to hold an A together). Steve challenged her on this and told her it’s about priorities and what could be more important to saving your M. One idea that I was happy to hear that she agreed with was that what would make WW the most happiest and fulfilled would be to have the parents of our children in a loving and passionate marriage.

So basically I think a seed was planted by Steve and it will be my responsibility to try and gently water it until it starts to sprout. He recommended that I not pressure her and just keep suggesting the idea that this approach should be looked into and proven that it can’t work before we give up on the marriage and to remind her now and then "what do you see as a happy ending here?" and just listen. Let her convince herself.

After talking with Steve, it all seems so straight forward. I just wish I had Steves knowledge and ideas so they would roll off my tongue when the discussion comes up. Who knew an hour could go by so fast! I guess I need to reread HNHN again…. and again and again!

We really didn’t talk about exposure again, so I’m going to really try this week/weekend to suggest the idea of looking at this approach (NO LB’s) and see if anything happens. I coarse there was another phone call to OM today which is just so draining. I think I’m going to take a few days off of snooping as I know as much as I need to know (I’m sure more than most know about their WS’s A) and maybe it will give me a break emotionally.

Qbert

I really need some advice ASAP. Came home today and first thing in the door WW said she has been thinking all day and believes M is over and we need to talk on how to end it. I said we would talk after the kids go to sleep. A friend called and invited her to a church recital tonight so she just left without us talking.

So i fully expect her to ask for a D tonight. Any suggestions? My hands are shaking right now so I can hardly type! OK...I to completely expose everything i know (seen all the email correspondance and know about almost daily phone sex). Any other thoughts?

I'm just going to send this post out because my brain is tracking now.

Qbert

WAT,

I reread your post from Tuesday and I guess having been here so long you could see what was coming.



When she gets back tonight I just need to stay calm and not get baited into an argument and start LBing.

Do you think I should tell her to quit acting as if this isn’t a full blown sexual affair? I may be wrong but I don’t think she knows the extent of my knowledge of the A, although she most likely at this point doesn’t care. Or should I just try and diffuse her anger and need to act or talk about D tonight?

Qbert

I don't know exactly why you haven't exposed this affair to everyone who could put pressure on it and end it. Apparently, you haven't confronted your wife either. If you're waiting for the most favorable phase of the moon or something, be advised it won't ever get here.

If you don't want to do that tonight, tell her you want to discuss revitalizing the marriage; you don't DO divorce. That's your mantra. Listen to her, don't do DJ's, but keep coming back to your central theme. You will not leave the home. She can leave; you can't stop her but you do not.

It would also be smart to take steps to safeguard your finances as soon as you can and see an attorney. If she does leave, you need to be prepared.

What happened with that idea of hiring the private investigator? You need to know details of his workplace so you can decide whether exposure there would help, whether he really is single, etc. Is he a church member? What's your plan for exposure to your friends, pastor, your wife's workplace, etc.?

Longhorn - What do you mean by "safeguard your finances" - what can you do until they leave? or what would you suggest?

Safeguarding your financial situation is different for everyone. For instance, you can have the current joint credit cards cancelled and new ones issued only in your name. You need to make sure the WS can't drain checking & savings accounts. Make sure you have access to enough cash/assets to pay the bills, etc. You might need to establish checking accounts the WS cannot access. Powers of attorney might need to be looked at, if any are currently in effect. Don’t agree to any new obligations, new second mortgages, new cars, commit to paying WS’s expenses, etc., etc.

There are other things, I’m sure. These are just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.

You are absolutely right! Honestly I think that part of it was HOPE that I wouldn’t have to expose both because of the embarrassment that our marriage is in trouble but also fear that it would put her over edge and she’d run for the lawyer. I also early on was posting on the Divorce Busters website under “midlife crisis”, which suggested give her space and turn into the man she would want to be in love with. OK stop beating around the bush Qbert….fear of loosing my wife, fear of loosing my kids. Fear of not being there each night to put my boys to sleep and there when they jump on us in the morning. FEAR! Ok I said it. I’ve been talking to IC about this aspect of my personality and know it’s time to step up to the plate and save my marriage. Now the reality is that the delay has allowed my WW to become closer and more dependant on OM.

WW came home tonight in good mood, tired from listening to 1-1/2 hours of Brahms’ Requiem and after a brief conversation about the concert said she was going to bed. Not even the slightest indication she wanted to talk D! My GOD can she turn on a dime!

I just had a feeling when I woke up this morning something different needed to be done so I put a quick call to SH voice mail at 11:00am today to get his take and advice on complete exposure, but haven't heard back from him. The telephone sessions go so fast that twice now if have forgot to ask about exposure. Hopefully he’ll call and I can get his quick input. I really think that her parents will be the best to expose to as WW has always wanted to make her parents proud.

I hear you for safeguarding the finances. WW has been a stay at home mom for the last 7 years. Because she is relying on my income to self publish her book, I think this is stalling her desire to leave. The fact is if she files for D now, the funds for the book (and her planned new career) will not be there to complete the publishing by this September. So you are right, she can leave if she wants but I’m not going anywhere.

I know a little about the OM because WW and I did talk about him early on when she first made contact with him last September and I did do the paid Yahoo search. He is single, works for himself out of his home. I know from a email between OM and WW that he has a sister who I should find out about.

It’s time to start getting things together for exposure and see if I can’t end this A and stand up for my family.

Qbert

Welcome to the most unpredictable roller coaster ride on the planet.

Ever ride Space Mountain? You know, the Disney 'coaster in the dark? Yea, it's quite dated now, but it's still an appropriate metaphor for this crap. You know the twists and turns are coming, but you don't know exactly when.

Get it? Space Mountain, alien abductions? Coincidence? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As for the divorce discussion - repeat your mantra.

So, lay out your exposure plans for us. I recommend expanding concentric circles - starting with telling your wife some of what you know that you know she doesn't know. For inspiration, see believer's thread to imanotherone about confronting her WH.

WAT

I remember Space Mountain from a visit 30 years ago. Scary as H*LL as I remember it....Hey, just like the crap i'm going though now!

I agree that I need to start with WW. I need to expose that i've read all of there email correspondance....every last picture and word. I've compiled them on one document including pictures. Should I print all the emails out and hand it to her? Having it all in her hands including the graphic pictures should shock her good. I think I'll also print out some of the posts for WS's to hand her.

Any other ideas? I'll read the suggested tread today.

Qbert

Read that thread.

The confrontation goal is a slam dunk. Shock and awe. No wiggle room.

Please summarize what you've communicated to her so far.

WAT

At this point she knows I have access to her cell phone calls on the internet. I think she believes if OM calls her she doesn’t get billed and I can’t see the call because she always emails him to call her. She also knows that I have read some of her Journals. She maybe thinks I have tried to look for emails but she has deleted all but a couple that do relate to her Book. I think she is going to be mad as a hornet and completely embarrassed when she finds out I have seen all of the emails from both of them.

I really think that her biggest hesitation at this point will be having to face what this will do to our boys (S7 & S4). Do any BS’s or FWS’s out there have any input on how much the children play into WS’s finally realizing what damage they are doing to the family?

Qbert

We'll the Shock and awe is over, I exposed to WW that I know everything. She didn't take it good...not good at all! Said she wants a divorce. She is currently curled up in bed. What is my next step?

I'll write more later, got to feed the boys.

Qbert

Do you know your mantra?

"I want nothing more than to keep our family together and heal our marriage. All of my actions are in that direction."

Repeat this until you don't have to think about it to recite it.

When the venom spews, "I understand your concern."

Do not argue, remain calm. Take none of what she says personally.

WAT