Qbert - I would not even do that without running it by a lawyer who can check on law in your state and in OM's state. Unless, like I said earlier, you don't mind getting sued and maybe losing. Maybe you don't - at some point I could see not minding.

Just realize the risk of what you are doing and be careful.

Do you put up with the continued affair actions....no way. I even re-exposed to her parents the several times she told me it had ended but I found "new" and "hidden" email addresses. I of course let her know that I had found the new email addresses and or hacked the passwords. She eventually came to the realization that is what I was going to do and stopped creating new ones.

If I was you I would learn about reverse babble. It is a good tool to deal with this crap. It helped me avoid LBing yet still staying true to course.

I was my wife's brother for a very long time during plan A. I was also her best friend. She even asked me for money so that she could give OM a lie detector test LMAO (he started lying to her on DDday and never stopped). I put up with some crazy stuff for 11 months after DDday. She would talk to me about their problems LMAO.

It is beyond belief what goes on with WW after DDay. I was the better and more secure one while he was the more fun one...blah blah blah.

I avoided almost all affection. This is a huge one for guys to figure out by the way. I made almost no advances of any kind. About the only thing I did for a long time was to come up behind her and give her a very quick kiss on the neck then walk away.

Hugs were out of the question much less anything else that seems like a normal way for guys to tell their wife they love them. BTW: many times saying "I love you" has an adverse affect for some reason. Use that cautiously until you get the sense that your are supposed to start saying it again.

Back to watching the train wreck of communication between the too of them in real time.

What worked best for me was to enforce the rule that she would never speak to OM in our home. Mind you part of this happened in the dead of winter.

"It is so cold outside, can't I just talk to OM this once inside?"...."No, you may not. You promised that you would not".

I eventually started sticking as close to her as possible at all times, even when she was on the phone to OM. It eventually became "ok" with her and I would make sarcastic comments in a voice that made sure that OM could hear.

I went on several campaigns of calling OM myself. I came up with so many different ways to say "f*** off buddy, she is where she wants to be and that ain't with you."

I had to start finding ways to trick OM into answering just so I could say "leave her alone" repeatedly.

I was careful never to say that "she said this" or "she said that". No need to give WW reasons to be even more upset. I was always clear that this was a war and that he would loose.

I think when I took the fight to him is when she finally figured out that there was a lot I was willing to do to help fix the marriage and keep her by my side.

Yep, I got his cell number and used it up.

Guys, let's have a couple of the attorneys comment on the issue of exposing to OM's business associates. No sense speculating on it when we can get professional assistance. I have a message out to Mr. Wondering, but he and the other legal experts won't be on MB until after their workday ends. Patience, okay? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Q, with your wife resuming the sexually explicit emails and othe contact, it's time to expose. You ready to start the ball rolling on that?

Qbert, I am sort of leery about the exposure to business clients and agree with Longhorn that it should be run by some of our attorney members.

I think a better exposure would be to the OM's PARENTS and SIBLINGS. I would also recommend confronting your W with what you have. [without giving up your source]

Have you exposed everywhere else?

First off....are you really collectible? If not, who cares. You can always file bankruptcy after he spends 2 years suing you and another year trying to collect. IF he wins (which I don't necessarily think he can), he'll have spent thousands on attorneys only to get ZILCH in the end. As soon as he finally attempts to garnish your wages, file bankruptcy and your done.

In the alternative, are you wealthy enough to fight off a potential lawsuit. I don't think he has a case but ANYONE can state a claim. The claim will likely survive the preliminary battles and make it to a jury. Truth is only a defense and is a matter of fact to be determined by the jury so the judge can dismiss the claim. IMHO, you should win in the end but you'll spend thousands of dollars on attorney's and countless hours dealing with it. (then again so will he).

Chance are he won't sue you. He may threaten but you have freedom of speech and the truth on your side. As long as you don't deter from the truth and stick to the script others gave you (or will give you) then you should be ok. The reason he won't sue is he will be a very unsympathetic plaintiff (what juror is going to award him anything) and he'll have to endure hours of depositions AND you can depose all his business clients (further interrupting his business and again exposing him). Just ain't gonna really happen.

Expose away to your hearts content.

Mr. Wondering <------ a Michigan attorney and NOT a litigator...please ask your own attorney what they think.

p.s. - when he threatens do not instigate him or challenge him. If you behave fearful (in appearance only for a brief moment), he may feel satisfied with just the threat. If you challenge the threat he may swell up and try to follow through with it. He'll find an attorney willing to sue you and get paid even if the claim stinks. They'll just harass you for a settlement. Save yourself the headache, don't instigate him to actually file. Promise not to do it again and walk away. You'll be done exposing anyway (another reason to get it all done in one swoop).

p.p.s.- last thing. What if you save your marriage and OM wants to keep you and WW in his life? He may just sue to keep the dynamic going. If he's got lots of money be careful ...but still do it. IMO, actions based on "rightness" will always trump responses based in "fear".

Thanks for all of your input today on my hair brain idea to get back at OM. I guess it comes down to the fact I'm not willing to sacrifice the business I’ve built over the last 18 years on this sleaze ball. I’ll let higher powers worry about what to do with this guy, as I need to stay focused on my plan A.

I did read WW a post by KariJean "Sacrifice Builds Resentment" which really opened my eyes what sacrifice does to a marriage. This is one of WW big issues as she feels she has sacrificed everything for our marriage and it has built up incredible amount of resentment. After I planted the seed about POJA, and wondered out loud what our marriage would be like if we had followed this policy. We discussed it a little but I changed the direction of the conversation so as not to get into a deep R discussion.

I really wish WW had someone to talk to (like a FWW) to clue her in that all is not hopeless when you feel you have no love towards spouse. KariJean’s posts are so compelling as a FWW turning around when she really felt she had no love for husband and truly thought OM was a soul mate. It gives me hope that WW will find the path to try and recover our marriage.

In the meantime I’m going to continue plan A and really start planning exposure to WW family.

Qbert

Email me at my address below. I have something I want to discuss with you off the boards.

You should still expose as best you can on OM's side of the fence. His parents, siblings, kids, wife all should be exposed to. The problem with exposing to his business associates is he may sue since you messed with his livelihood (I still think it's doubtful). Remember, getting OM to end the relationship is a distinct possibility. (Mrs. Wonderings OM ended it with her when the going got tough...he was single and 750 miles away, he sought out easier opportunities and actually married another woman within 3 months or so after ending things with my wife).

Anyway, I look forward to hearing from you.

Mr. Wondering

I have just left the house for some reflection after a confrontation with WW tonight about breaking NC and I just can’t get one of the things WW said out of my mind.

“I feel that everything in our marriage right now is perfect, except the relationship between you and me. The relationship between us is disconnected. What I mean is we don’t have the kind of relationship where a man and a women are completely intimate”.

I know that the “I feel that everything in our marriage right now is perfect” statement is a direct result of my complete turn-around the last 2 months in trying to meet her EN’s.

When she said “What I mean is we don’t have the kind of relationship where a man and a women are completely intimate”, I completely agree with her. Because we both have not met each others EN’s for so long the intimate part of our marriage has been missing for many years. After years of not meeting her EN’s she became very resentful of our marriage and I could sense daily that she despised me. I guess I didn’t sense it so much that she told me she despised me and our marriage quite often(I wish I had taken this as a plea for help instead of an attack on me). Thinking I knew how she felt about me, intimacy for me was very difficult. So I withdrew and stopped trying to meet that EN for her. When I told her that there are many couples that have gone through the same issues we are going through and have worked to make the marriage better than they could ever had imagined, she said “But those married couples sit next to each other and hold hands, are intimate and affectionate. We have a platonic relationship”.

So after my long winded recreation of some of our conversation, my question:

Are there recovering couples out there that had YEARS of not meeting each others EN’s that have been able to recover into a passionate and intimate marriage?

Maybe this is just fog talking, but after this emotionally draining discussion you really start to question can this marriage survive.

One of the saddest parts of my awakening is that I can honestly say I thought (fantasized) about intimacy (not just sex but affection and admiration) with my wife most every day before D-day. I still do actually, but I didn’t have the knowledge that she was looking for the same thing. Unfortunately she is so deep in the fog that I don’t think she is willing to give our marriage a chance to survive.

I’ll keep trying.

Qbert

***“I feel that everything in our marriage right now is perfect, except the relationship between you and me.***

Mr. Q, I gotta tell ya that this just made me LOL.

Does it not speak volumes about her state of mind right now?
Mulan

Beam her up, Scotty!!!!

"I think my hair is perfect except it's too short."

"I think my butt is just right except it's too big."

"I think I'm hungry, but I don't want anything to eat."

"I think I love Qbert, except I want OM."

Can't ANY of these WSs do ANYTHING original?

WAT

YES! Just PERFECT, she gets a supporting husband meeting her EN's like never before, live in a great house, kids are happy, and to top it off have an affair. Why-Oh-why cant she keep it just the way it is?

I'll write more later as alot has happened since last night. Recovery in the near future?....Maybe and maybe not. As you can see based on her state of mind it's a complete crap shoot!

Qbert

It’s been a long and draining day. On Friday I confronted WW for the 2nd time that I know what exactly what happening between her and OM after she broke NC within a couple of days. This confrontation I printed out every email between the two of them including all of the Pornographic pictures OM sent my WW and her responses. I basically laid everything out in front of her. I told her what my boundaries are that I don’t share my wife with other men (thanks for the tip Mr. Wondering!). I said that for the last 3 months I dropped any pride and boundaries that I had in order to look inward and try to find a reason that we are in the situation we are in today. I told her I know the reason this happened and the path to healing our marriage and all my actions have been in that regard. I said that she was going to need to decide for herself if she was going to try and save our marriage or destroy her life, my life and our two boy’s lives. I told her if she decided to stay there will have to be absolutely NC with OM again in any form. That she needed to write a letter to OM stating the need for NC. That if she couldn’t live without OM then she needs to move out and tell your boys that there mother is leaving them.

I did sarcastically say that I was sure the boys would understand that because she had to be happy that they would see her only 1 or 2 times a week for visitation, or if she moved to California to live with OM that I was sure they would be happy with every other holiday and long weekends. I know it was a LB but it just popped out of my mouth before I could stop my lips from flapping!

I then told her that I was going to leave for a little while and she stopped me and said she wanted to say a couple of things.

She then stated the soon to be famous quote from a WW: “I feel that everything in our marriage right now is perfect, except the relationship between you and me. The relationship between us is disconnected. What I mean is we don’t have the kind of relationship where a man and women are completely intimate”.

She went on to say that there is no future with OM as he is at a completely different stage in life than her, has always been single and has never been married. That he is starting to plan for retirement and she has two young children. That he is just using her for phone sex. FOG! FOG! FOG! I read her journaling from today where she wrote that why hasn’t OM ever been married? She answered herself that he has always known that his sole mate and only wife has been married for the last 15 years. She did journal about things she had to get done next week and one of those was “write letter to OM”.

I don’t know at this point because the fog is so thick that she will really be able have NC. She believes that intimacy and passion are not possible between the two of us and no matter what EN’s I can fulfill that her new most important EN of Sexual satisfaction can not and will not be fulfilled by me.

I did ask her if sex has always been so important to her, why hadn’t she tried to initiate more SF in the last 17 years. No answer to this question, just silence.

I slept downstairs last night and when she came down in the morning the first thing she said was “I have taken everything you said last night to heart and I want you to know that I know how much this has hurt you”. I’m thinking honey you have absolutely no clue how much you have hurt me, but I held my tongue and thanked her sharing her feelings.

Today we spent the day together with the kids and continued to talk. WW shared that a friend of hers whom is bipolar (she is also single) told her that when she gets depressed that masturbation is one of the best forms of self medication. My wife said that she believes that a large part of the A has been self medication to help with her depression.

When she told me that it will be very difficult to never talk to OM again because they're so connected in their creativity, I just quietly listened and told her that it will be difficult, but I will help her though the loss. I really had no idea how much you really have to swallow your pride to listen and act as a friend at this stage. Even though I'm a very laid back and easy going person this is so difficult for me.

I don’t really know where we are at this point. She is all over the board with how she is feeling. I know this is to be expected.

The best thing that has come out of last night and today is that she definitely knows where I stand and that continued contact with OM will have immediate ramifications.

Unfortunately because of mothers day tomorrow, I feel that having to bring up the NC letter is going to be a complete buzz kill. Should I wait to address this until Monday? Because she is at home during the week I do think it is important to address NC before the week begins.

Qbert

Good job, bert.


Whether she actually means this, it's probably spot on.

"Depression" might be debatable, but "medication" is very, very likely 100% accurate - as in "drug."

Get on the phone with Steve ASAP to update him. Now's the time to fertilize those previously planted seeds.

WAT

Q, I see you aren't being fooled by your WW's first attempts to bargain with you so she can keep her adultery going. Dr. Harley writes in SAA bargaining is one of the first things a busted WW does, even though they have nothing to bargain with. Stay on message, Q. You will not accept a third person in your marriage for any reason.

What you said sarcastically about her moving out and expecting the children to understand actually has been done many a time. Spouses in this condition are full of entitlement and their ego won't allow them to see the suffering their adultery causes in others, even their children. At this stage, the wayward spouse expects the betrayed spouse and children to want the wayward one to be happy and is astounded if they are not.

That business about the "soul mate" is standard stuff...right from the "Handbook for Wayward Spouses" I swear must be issued to all of them the moment they enter the fog. I expect there will be other examples you'll hear as time goes on. Like your question to her about SF, logical inquiries or comments will be met with stony silences or tales of fantasy. Her "creative connection" indeed.

You are becoming a little impatient with her inability to think and speak logically. And, you're right, this is what I was thinking of when I wrote getting her out of the fog and back to reality involves some sacrifice. You’re going to get more nonsense out of her, more lack of understanding, more bargaining where you will swear she must think you are an absolute fool.

Think of your wife as an alien, Q. You’ve seen it mentioned on threads out here. She’s been taken over by an alien who beamed down from a mother ship in orbit over your town. She’s not your wife anymore. She’s that alien. Another poster out here has found relief from this by picturing his wife with the head of a fish superimposed on his wife’s body and head. He says it helps when she’s mouthing insanities and talking to “the fish” is actually somewhat humorous. You might try that and see how it works.

Don’t forget though, this is deadly serious. She’s going to do everything she can to keep her adultery going. It’s supremely important to her and she will lie on a stack of Bibles if it suits her purpose. She will resist that NC letter until she has no other alternative, and there’s a good chance she will lie about actually going into NC. That’s why you have to keep your intelligence operation going. Right now, you can’t trust her any farther than you can throw her, as Grandma used to say. Until she’s out of withdrawal, she’s the alien.

Q, do not expect to have NC in place by today’s end. It’s probably going to be a long process of weathering her bargaining attempts and sticking to your guns she’ll be worn down but it might not even happen in this stage of your recovery plan. Many wayward spouses do NOT agree to NC just because the betrayed spouse has busted the wayward one.

That’s why you’ve been advised to plan an exposure. It’s the next step in the process of separating your wife from that other man and getting NC. So, my next question is how that exposure list is coming? Give us an outline of your latest draft of that list and let us make some suggestions, okay?

Stay strong, pardner. The MB process is long and you’ve only just begun the journey. You’re in there for the long haul though and the reward of a better marriage than you had before is waiting at the end.

I have been absent for the last few weeks working on my Plan A as wife agreed to NC but would not write the NC letter. I believed she did have NC for the first week as she was having major withdrawals and I’m getting fairly good at detective work. On Tuesday night I found a 60 min prepaid calling card that had 5 minutes used and it was activated on Tuesday. By Thursday all of the minutes have been used……So NC is completely out the window.

I confronted WW today about contact with OM. I asked her if she has talked or emailed OM and she denied she had. I asked if she would swear on her children’s souls and she hesitated and asked why I thought she was talking to OM. I said that because she had agreed to NC I wanted some assurances that contact was not continuing. I again asked her to swear on her children’s souls that she was not in contact with OM, to which she said “I swear on my children’s souls that I’m not talking or emailing OM”. I then told her that I knew for a fact she was talking to OM and had been all week. All she could say was “how did you know”!

WS’s will say ANYTHING to cover up A’s!!!!!

I know I’m going to get a lot of 2x4’s across the head for this… but I have not exposed to date. I believe I have had my reasons (most liking wrong at this point) not to expose, but I know agree exposure needs to happen now.

Can any of you please give me some pointers in what to say in my exposure to WW family members and friends of OM. Do I keep it short and general or do I get into specifics?

The first person I’m going to expose to will be a very long time friend and business partner to OM. It has taken me some time to find this women since OM lives in another state 3000 miles away. Obliviously this will have to be by telephone. I would like to do this tomorrow if possible.

Thanks,

Qbert

Expose in expanding concentric circles - starting close in - to folks who may be influential to her. Friend of OM isn't it.

Just tell them the truth and that your desire is to rebuild your marriage. Be humble and sincere. Avoid sounding vengeful. She's confused and needs your compassion, not your wrath. Ask for their support. If they offer intervention, guide them to contact your W and calmly encourage complete ending of the affair - no "friends" stuff.

WAT

Q, welcome back to MB. I'm sorry you're back because that means the adultery isn't over. WAT has suggested you expose in concentric circles of individuals, exposing to some--waiting to see if the effect is sufficient--then exposing to others, etc., etc. Sometimes this works. Sometimes it is self-defeating because it gives the partners in adultery time to "spin" things with folks not included in the first wave. I treasure WAT's advice enough to include his "Exposure 101" thread in my signature block.

On the other hand, some others out here, such as Melodylane, think one "nuclear" exposure is best because it gives the adulterers nowhere to find refuge. It all hits at once and has a greater effect on the adultery. I think the one-time exposure effort is best because I like my weapons to strike hard and with great impact.

You pick the method that suits your situation best. When in doubt, pick the one that is tougher for you and from which you are shying away.

As to what to say, WAT gave you some key pointers. Don't be spiteful. You're there to ask this person for help in ending an obscene adultery. If you're sitting with those to whom you're exposing, look them in the eye, take a deep breath, and just start talking. Once you open up, the discussion will keep rolling by itself.

As to what to tell them, I'm aware of some advice Steve Harley gave someone out here who found it necessary to expose by email to the other person’s family. SH advised including in the email one or two powerful pieces of evidence (a particularly graphic email, for instance, or a letter of some sort), along with supporting information. I don’t know what you have, but perhaps that will spark something in your mind.

An email, conversation, letter, or whatever, the supporting information could be facts like there was over $1,000 in text messages (or other charges) in one month, XXX number of calls in a given period, etc. If you’re talking to OM’s family or friends, an offer of additional evidence could be made, but be careful of someone pumping you for all the information you have in the OM’s behalf.

A short synopsis of the adultery can be given. “WW and OM have been having an affair since _______. It began when WW began telling OM of some frustrations she had with our marriage and it mushroomed from there. I know now their emotional attachment has progressed into frequent phone sex and the transmission of sexually explicit photographs. OM and WW have (made plans to consummate) (consummated) their relationship physically (whenever they can) (on a number of occasions)…etc., etc. I have irrefutable evidence all this is going on…” Include dates (month and year) where appropriate.

I’m ambivalent about including the information this is your wife’s second adultery in the last year. I guess it’s not appropriate to include that information because it would seem spiteful. Perhaps others can comment on that.

I hope this gives you a starting point for what you might say in exposing to someone. Everything has to be tailored to your specific situation and that has to be left up to you. The important thing is you’ve realized trusting your wife to come off her addiction by herself is not the way to go. She swore on her children’s souls she was not talking to him. Truly, the alien cannot be trusted.

Who else can you expose to who can put pressure on this adultery, Q? You’re exposing to one of OM’s business associates, but aren’t there other people who will disapprove of this and let that be known to OM?

How about people in WW’s family? I know she’s working on a book. Are there not people in the local area who would find it reprehensible for a woman to be working on a children’s book and indulging herself in a sordid, obscene relationship with another man at the same time?

I said something once before about not shielding your WW from the consequences of her adultery, Q. I’ll reiterate it here. Your wife is using a book project to have an adulterous relationship with a man outside her marriage. If that book deal falls through, sir, that’s a consequence of the adultery, not the exposure or a factor of anything else you find necessary to do. Do not let consequences to her be a consideration, okay?

Hang in there, Q. You’re late getting in the game, but the game isn’t over yet. Get in there and take some good, healthy swings.

The ripple of exposure has started. I contacted OM’s long time business partner whom is a women. Low and behold she is actually romantically involved with OM. She was very grateful to hear from me as she has suspected for a long time that OM has not been faithful but never had any proof. She asked me to email her some of the email correspondence between OM and WW which I did.

This is what she told me:

• OM has some physical and many emotional issues which prevent actual intercourse.
• OM is only capable of phone/email or IM sex.
• Believes he is a pathological liar.
• Emotionally is incapable of any type of long term relationship.
• Believes he is an expert in entangling innocent and unsuspecting women into this type of relationship (however my WW is neither innocent nor unsuspecting).
• Has never had any proof before today, but believes that he has done this to countless women

She is going to read thru the emails and call me so we can plan a way to end affair. She said that she had been waiting to end her romantic relationship for some time and today’s conversation cemented that.

She suggested that we figure a time to simultaneously expose.

I would love any suggestions from the real experts out there.

Qbert

Just got an email from girlfriend of OM and she basically spells out who this man is and he's definitly not the fantasy that WW has made him out to be.

Here is just a small part of the email:

"Please know that OM is not the Man that he portrays in these e-mails or the fantasy that WW has created in her mind. He is 54 years old and he smokes, does not eat right, is over weight, has high blood pressure and on the verge of a heart attack at all times, and frankly: OM doesn't really even like kids. "

Should I just email her this response to WW or take some other approach?

Qbert

No, running down the OM, whether the information is accurate or not, doesn't work. In fact, it has the opposite effect and binds WW closer to the OM because he's "being attacked." Just keep those things close to your vest. Now you know more about who you're fighting here and some part of that may be useful in a future strategy.

See what happens when you expose, Q? You've gained a powerful ally to help smash this adulterous relationship. I ask you again. Who else can you expose to who can put pressure on this obscenity?