Hi There -
I'm new to this forum and looking for encouragement/wisdom and I guess I'm also venting here so please bare with me. I have suspected my husband of having an affair for the last 2 years. All the classic signs were there, but every time I confronted him he would deny, deny, deny and tell me I was crazy and threaten divorce. He's an alcoholic and during that time his drinking became much heavier and I could see that he was very guilty and avoided going to church, (didn't want anything to do with the spiritual aspects of life), avoided family, and hardly wanted anything to do with me at all.

On March 3rd 06 he was admitted to the hospital for alcohol withdrawal, (high blood pressure the shakes the whole thing). Unbeknownst to me he became really frightened by it all and started seeing a counselor, who told him he needed to admit to his infidelity because it was eating him alive. So at the end of March, he finally admitted to me that he had a one night stand on a business trip in FEB 04. Then he became close to another female executive where he works and in April O4 they went out to dinner, decided they were very attracted to each other, talked about their displeasure in their own marriages and boom it happened that night. What ensued was 18 months of betrayal, lies and absolute mental and emotional anguish for me. His displeasure with me stemmed from the fact that I had Interstitial Cystitis (inflammation of the lining of the bladder) which made sex painful and put an obvious hamper on our sex life. I felt like a heal of a wife at the time. The other thing that upset him was I was on disability and because of it, he felt like he had to much of the financial burden. He would always make comments about friends wives that were well educated, successful, athletic, made lots of money and very independent. I guess what was so hard is that without a college education I worked my way up in the technology world and worked in Marketing Communications for a startup. I made a good salary, have stayed thin and attractive. I guess what's frustrating is no matter what I did or how beautiful I tried to be for him, it wasn't good enough (by the way I'm not trying in anyway to be stuck-up but I'm not a slouch, I'm 37, but I have kept myself up well, slender 114 pnds 5'6 and can still where the little bikinis), he picked another fairly attractive women 10 years older then him with two kids. My husband is a very attractive man and works in an extremely high profile job, with very attractive women, very wealthy high powered people including celebrities. There is a certain amount of celebrity that goes with his job and so it also attracts more women to him. His company sends the executives on "executive retreats" so he was going to the finest 5 star boutique resorts and having a fantasy sex affair with this women all over the map, (Vegas, Cabo, South Carolina) and then they were meeting in hotels in our hometown at least twice a week. The whole thing makes me so sick I can hardly stand it.

My mom was prophetic in saying that if he took this job it could be his downfall because there is so much money, power and temptation all around him. This was 5 years ago. It really has changed him to a man I don't even know. He was so good to me for the majority of our marriage and courtship, a really romantic guy always leaving me cards and little gifts before I'd go off to work. We were so crazy about each other and yes we had our hard times but we were truly in love. I was 26 and my husband was 22 when we got married. He now says he doesn't know if he wants to be married and after he told me about the affair, he moved out. Then he came back because hotels were getting to expensive, so I have gone to live with my parents. He said the OW ended the affair last year (DEC 05) in his words because a friend of hers smacked her over the head and said what the heck are you doing with a married man? She told my WH that she recognized he wasn't happy and needed to figure out what he wants with his life, marriage and didn't want to be the one to split our marriage up (gee a little late to figure that out lady <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). Apparently from what my WH has told his mom, the OW doesn't want anything to do with him and she is moving on. They still work together and have staff meetings every week and have to interact because of business. In my mother-in-law's words this women was looking for a rebound guy, (she was getting a divorce) and my husband was it. I worry though, because my WH says he still values her friendship, although apparently she's avoided being friendly according to my WH because of the fallout at work, (people know and there is a lot of shame and embarrassment for them). My WH admitted that if she still wanted the affair he would still be with her even now, although he wants nothing to do with her kids. I think they must have had a conversation along the way and probably when she figured out my WH wasn't interested in being daddy to her 11 year and 9 year old it turned her off.

Okay fast forward to now. We are separated (per my husbands request), I have told my husband that I love him and that I do want to work it out and have a chance to meet the needs that I wasn't meeting before. I realize that the alcoholism puts a gigantic damper on reconciliation of any kind. I think right now the time apart is best. I have a lot of healing to do because he was so mean and emotionally abusive the last two years. I felt like I lived with and alien. He is deteriorating fast, he is ill, doesn't eat, lost 12 pounds, now hates his job, (which he runs a major portion of the company operation) and says he doesn't know what he wants to do next. He is just trying to get through a major event that is coming up next week and then he says he knows he needs to make "major life changes" and get himself well. Last night I went to our house and made him dinner because he' s not eating and he's mixing anti-depressants with alcohol. His eyes were dilated they almost looked black. He ate dinner but then he immediately laid down on the sofa and tried to sleep. I didn't talk about anything with him or ask for anything but I did try to install some "love units" by caring for him and letting him know that I was here for him now because he had been there for me often times when I had been ill (pre-affair), he was my strength. I told him I new I couldn't fix it and that I couldn't undue what had been done, but that I would be there for him to try to get help for his alcoholism and that I would be strong for him and work so that he didn't have to so that he could get the help he needed. He squeezed my hand and said thank you but then of course after I left I never hear from him.

His family and I are planning an intervention in the Month of May and have chosen an Intervention Specialist and the rehab etc. I'm not calling him to much but he knows he can contact me if he wants to talk etc. I guess to be honest I'm confused. I don't know up from down. I've read the 180 list, but I don't know how much I should be installing love units or how much I should just be trying to be a challenge. I know he sees me as the faithful wife that will always be there and he is the kind of guy that likes a challenge, but given his health and his alcoholism issues, I'm just not sure. I truly love this man because I know the person he was before all this happened, but to complicate it all I think he's going through an early mid-life because we got married young. Any advice is much appreciated and sorry for writing a novel here.

Well, you can't make love unit deposits with an alcoholic because it is impossible. They only react to such endeavors as an opportunity to EXPLOIT because they do not LOVE in the normal sense. So, Plan A and 180 are all a waste of time with a alcoholic. You would get much, much more out of Alanon.

Just know that until his alcoholism is arrested, marital recovery is impossible. He is simply not emotionally available for an intimate attachment that is required to maintain a normal marriage.

Dr. Harley wrote a very good piece on alcoholism that I will link here, What to do with an Alcoholic Wayward Spouse: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html

Personally

I would not accept a drunk husband as an option ... not again.

We are 10 years recovered from his A

and he is 10 years sober WORKING the AA step program

nothing was worse, for me, than living with a dry drunk ... an alcoholic who is not currently drinking but is not in treatment ... why?

because they are the most miserable Unhappy tense anxious angry people I know

this was my boundary

want to be married to me ?? Then AA and stay there

it totaly worked

that is my bias

my H is a happy sober man who has friendships within AA like he never imagined possible ... it's a life to be admired!

best of luck

Pep

From the above article:

"That's what I learned to do after discovering that an alcoholic is so much in love with alcohol, that while in the state of addiction, there is no way for them to consider their spouse's feelings whenever they make decisions, a necessary condition for a great marriage. Alcohol always comes first, even when it is at the spouse's expense."

Thank you all for the advice! Hopefully his family and I will be able to get him into recovery, because he is so sick and it feels like nothing will be normal or seminormal until he gets help. As far as the 180 or depositing love units, I really don't get much of a response at all from him when I try any of that and I guess that is because of the addiction.

I guess the one thing I don't understand is this OW was meeting some of his emotional and obvious physical needs and he was meeting some of hers or they wouldn't have been in the affair for almost two years. So what's the scoop there? Being that he is an alcoholic how come he can receive the love units from someone else but not from me, and still seems to have some longing for her? Is it the old forbidden fruit syndrome? Is it because they were going to these exotic places with none of the real life responsibilities other than that they worked together? I feel so inadequate, I know I shouldn't but I do. She doesn't even know he is a raging alcoholic, he hid it from her. He would drink after their encounters.

Pep how long was your husband in the affair if you don't mind my asking? Did he threaten to leave the marriage after you found out? How did you get through the painful combination of the affair and the alcoholism? My husband is now not sure that he wants to be married and I feel so rejected and sad. I'm so happy for you that it worked out and that you were able to instill those boundaries. It does give me hope and I hope I can be as strong. I know I need to get back into Alanon. I was going but I started to feel a little crazy because everyone's stories were so hard to listen to and I was already so sad.

rh, he isn't getting love units from anyone, except Jack Daniels. He doesn't "love" anyone in the normal sense that you know and understand. The notion is probably foreign to him. He views others as opportunities for exploitation and will exploit whereever he can. Alcoholics have no boundaries, so having affairs is usually very common.

I guess I haven't heard the exploitation concept. I know that when he was having this affair, he was completely miserable. I mean the whole time you could tell he was in a dogfight with himself and thats when the drinking really escalated(he's a christian guy so he knows how wrong it is). He always detested people in the past that did such things to their wives, but I know he became more and more insecure about himself in this job and seems to need the female attention to feel better about himself. Is that what you mean by exploitation? He told me he never loved her but that he valued her friendship, so I guess if you were to ask him he truly thinks there was somthing there and seems to be hurting at the fact that she wants nothing to do with him other then dealing with business matters for which I'm thankful.

rh, what I mean by exploiting is that he is using her. He doesn't love her. An alcoholic doesn't love PEOPLE in the normal sense that you and I understand because his emotions are warped. This is why it is IMPOSSIBLE to meet their emotional needs. They don't "love" others, they view them as opportunities. His love of alcohol takes precedence over all others; it is extremely powerful. And it will remain like this until he stops drinking and gets into some program of recovery.

Does the intervention specialist support Alcoholics Anonymous?

MelodyLane - Thank you, I understand what your saying. I guess it's so much to absorb and accept. Even though it makes perfect sense, I still feel inadequate. I guess that goes under the lines of his disease has become my disease.

Yes the intervention specialist has set up recovery with one of the best rehabs in the country and they do have an after care program including support of AA. They have a very high success rate so I'm really hopeful.

Recovering hope,

STOP...BREATHE...and THINK!

Please know that I feel for what you and your family are going through.

I have been married to an alcholic for nine years, and he too had an affair.
I should qualify, and state that my husband was not activly drinking when he made the decision to have an affair...but his alcholic thinking certainly contributed to the decision.
He is currently 21 years sober and is active in the AA program.

The best advice we (my H is here with me) can give you is based on our experience, strength and hope...take what you can use and leave the rest.

The first thing I'd like to say is something you've probably heard at Al-Anon but does deserve repeating.
Alcoholism is a disease (just like diabetes or cancer) that when left untreated can, and does kill.
You didn't cause it...you CAN'T control it...and YOU CANNOT cure it. That is left to the Alcoholic as they work the steps of recovery.

A concept that may be of some help to you at this point is that of detatchment...with love.

Before I expand on that I would like to state that I do support the concepts and guidlines offered by MB, and strongly feel they will be of use to you when the time comes to work through the pain and damage caused by your H's affair.
Given that your H is not yet in recovery, dealing with his alcoholism must be the first step. Marriage recovery can and will come...later.
Until that time, you and your family need to learn to take care of yourselves so that you can step off this roller-coaster healthy, and in one piece.

The concept of detatchment with love can help you and your family maintain some semblance of sanity.
When you sense that a situation is dangerous to your physical, mental, or spiritual wellbeing, you can put extra distance between yourself and the situation. Sometimes this means that you don't get too emotionally involved in a problem, sometimes you may physically leave the room or end a conversation. And sometimes you may try to put spiritual space between yourself and another person's alcoholism or behavior. This doesn't mean you stop loving the person, only that you acknowledge the risks to your own and your family's own well-being and make choices to take care of them and yourself.

I would also like to say that it is very possible and probably likely that your husband still loves you. It's just that the distorted thinking of his disease and the dysfunction caused by it make him unable to understand or communicate that love. If he chooses to enter recovery he will be given tools to help him do so.

You will need to be strong, patient, supportive, and even understanding if your husband is to recover. I know how monumentally difficult that sounds, but there is help out there to make it possible. One of the best sources I can recommend is Al-Anon. I know you have attended meetings, and felt it to be too much at the time, but perhaps now it's time to try again. If you do, please know that sitting at meetings is only part of the program. For Al-Anon to really and truly help, a person should attend different meetings until they find someone they can relate to and feel comfortable with. Then ask that person to sponsor them in the program and help them work the steps of recovery...because it's only by working the steps that an. individual can heal.

My husband would like to add that there are three questions that need answers for the intervention to be successful...

1- Does your husband want to get sober?
2- Is he willing to go to any length to get sober?
3- Are you prepared to accept your husband for who he becomes as he sobers up?

The only way an intervention will be successful is if he is willing to change. That may not be now, but the seed will be planted.

We wish you all the best and are willing to help in any way we can, please feel free to contact us.

Take care of yourself.
A&J

Pep how long was your husband in the affair if you don't mind my asking?

His affair was nearly 2 years ... it was with the wife of his childhood friend. very shameful. His drinking escalated during his affair.

Did he threaten to leave the marriage after you found out?

LOL

no

I did

How did you get through the painful combination of the affair and the alcoholism?

I got through it one day at a time.

Getting myself a support system (Al-ANON ... first stop)

journaling

counseling

and getting real

not trying to fix my H

taking MY inventory

not accepting bullshyt as an appetizer !!!!

when he offered me less than I wanted, I maintained my boundary that he was free to choose otherwize, but if he did, he's be without a wife

My husband is now not sure that he wants to be married and I feel so rejected and sad.

great tool of manipulation your H had used against you

know why he does this?

it works!

he has you nearly immobilized

his disease has paralized you

I'm so happy for you that it worked out and that you were able to instill those boundaries.

The boundaries are for ME ... my H instills his own boundaries ...

when I make a boundary, it means if X happends I will react with Y. MY boundary does not assume my H must do something differently, but that I MUST do something differently !!!

It does give me hope and I hope I can be as strong.

being strong is a choice, not a hope

I know I need to get back into Alanon.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was going but I started to feel a little crazy because everyone's stories were so hard to listen to and I was already so sad.

OK...

so now what?

love Pep

Pep,

Interesting take. You really think if WS wants to leave marriage it's manipulation? I'm interested to learn more about your thoughts on that.

we're discussing a drunk ALCOHOLIC WS ... not a run-of-the-mill WS without chemical dependency!

heck yes

when an alcoholic is not in treatment ... they function very much like a teenager ... manipulation, threats, and then play nicey-nice until the sober (dependable) person they rely on is relaxed ... then the alcoholic re-cycles the above

over
and
over
and
over
and
over

Recovering-hope

read this

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=2976819&page=0

PEP -

I called my husband once this morning just on some business stuff. Just kept it short.... nothing emotional. Then I desperately wanted to call back to ask him where he stands, how he's feeling about me, blah blah blah, but I didn't; instead I read your thread and it gave me the strength to not call, and also to realize on so many counts you are right. I love the link to the thread you gave me about fear. I copied and pasted into a word doc to remind myself, because my whole life has been living in fear for the last two years.

Fear because he has told me in the past, he doesn't care whether I come or go. He just didn't have that "in love" feeling for me. He doesn't know if he wants to be married, and the latest he told me is that we could be separated for 3 mon, 6 mon, or a year and he still might not want to get back together. He wielded so much control over me during the affair, if I probed for information, he would belittle and verbally abuse me, tell me I was crazy and of course run to the other woman even more, I was so wounded by him and I lived in fear, walking on eggshells, trying to "make things right." I never thought of all this as a manipulation that paralyzes me, but you really gave me some things to think about today. I guess I'm learning a lot. Is this really the standard alcoholic BS? I'm amazed my dad was an alcoholic but he didn't have an affair or make those kind of threats to my mom he was just emotionally abusive. Actually when he was in rehab he did tell my mom maybe I just don't want you anymore. My moms response was; "that's fine I will go on and have a happy life without you because if you don't want me I don't want you." My dad backed right off and now they just celebrated their 51st wedding anniversary........ very happily married and sober.

When you said this:

when an alcoholic is not in treatment ... they function very much like a teenager ... manipulation, threats, and then play nicey-nice until the sober (dependable) person they rely on is relaxed ... then the alcoholic re-cycles the above................ oh my gosh that is my husband to a T. I felt like I was living with a 16 year old all the time who always had to have their way at any cost.

I have a really bruised and battered heart and spirit right now but I'm glad I have found this board of supportive people who have been through it and come out positive on the other end. I will find an Alanon group and my Intervention Specialist suggested that I keep trying different groups until, I find one that gives me solutions that work for me.

Anyway I do have a good family and friend support system, a business mentor and I are working on a new business venture..... good distraction that I can throw myself into. I am journaling and I did have a great counselor, but she is going through breast cancer treatment at the moment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

not accepting bullshyt as an appetizer !!!!

Gosh PEP keep reminding me of this one!! ;-) I can tell you were a tough cookie with your husband. I need to be more that way with mine, I'm a softy and he walks all over that. OUCH! I understand what you are saying about the boundaries and I will definitely work on that for myself.

Thankyou Thankyou, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

RH

A&J -

Thank you for your encouragement, I could sure use it right now. To answer your questions.... yes I think my husband is ready to get sober, he has admitted in his words that he is a raging alcoholic and he knows he needs recovery. I think he has looked into it a bit with his counselor, but because he is pretty ill now and mixing anti-depressants with the alcohol, he's just not in the mind-frame to pull it all together and check himself into rehab. That is why his family and I feel he needs the extra push of intervention.

He is just surviving at work and getting through a major event this week. I think the intervention will honestly be a welcome relief because he is so confused and doesn't seem to know what to do with himself. He's killing himself a little bit everyday and he looks terrible.

As far as me I don't think I can accept him any other way but sober. I know that sobriety is not all rosy either and comes with it's own set of issues, but at least his head will be a bit more clear......... I hope.

Just one other question from the male perspective……….. Did you also not know if you still wanted to me married after the affair? I've been told by PEP that it's a standard manipulation of alcoholics, but he has been talking to his counselor and mom about not knowing if he wants to be married for some time and I truly believe he feels that way. Can there be a combination of mid-life crisis going on here? I mean he has a lot of the symptoms of an early mid-life. (such as I don’t know what I want, the grass might be greener somewhere else, etc. etc. and we married young) Although he really sowed his oats before he met me if you know what I mean. The affair seemed to intensify that feeling of I don’t know what I want or if I want to be married, because we did separate last summer (I booted him out because he was so emotionally detached, now we know why) and he did not want to come back to me. I asked him to come back and I tried to fix it. I know stupid me. He says he is open to counseling after we take some time apart and has stated to his mom that he can't just throw away 15 years invested in a relationship away, but he also says different things at different times and so I am left so confused. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

rh, I really empathize as I was with my alcoholic XH for 18 years. You've gotten great advice and support so far. I agree with the recommendation to go back to Al-Anon. The verbal abuse - and A's are a form of abuse - along with the lying and manipulation can really wear you down. His disease is just doing whatever it can to survive by taking the attention off his problem. But, his behavior has nothing to do with you. Al-Anon helped me to refocus on myself and my own recovery. Hopefully, soon, you'll be recovering together.

Sorry about your counselor. I'm a BC survivor, too.

Thank you, I hope we are in recovery together soon.... I agree lots of good advice here and things for me to think about. I didn't really think about the fact that his disease is doing whatever it can to survive, to take attention off the real problem but that makes perfect sense. He sure has a million excuses of why he did what he did. The ol it's not you it's me, and rewriting the history of our marriage. Apparently our marriage wasn't good at all and I "shackled him" for 11 years. He screamed that at me in counseling. Mind you this is the man who loved and adored and doted on me most of our marriage. We had so many fun times together and a great friendship and I certainly didn't put a gun to his head for him to marry me.... I guess it really is the foggy thinking/alcohol talking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

rh, I know how hard it is to hear all this stuff from your H. If you look at my time line it will tell you part of my story, including the fact that I got divorced today, 5 1/2 years after XH left me for MOW, who recently left him after cleaning out his bank account.

I heard all that and more from my XH and felt so worthless because of it. I finally told him that either he got sober and ended the A, or we'd have no more contact. He chose alcohol, drugs, and MOW. Yet now, 4 years later, I know none of it was true and I suspect he regrets his choices.

One of the jokes I heard in Al-Anon asks: "How can you tell when an alcoholic is lying?" The answer: "When his lips are moving." The excuses, rewriting of history, blaming, etc., are all part of this. Don't take what he says to heart and don't try to convince him otherwise either. Instead, focus on self-healing. This will be the most help to you in the long run, whether or not you recover your marriage.

Hi R.C.

I't's A here, typing on behalf of J who is dictating...

Using the alcohol as a crutch is a very common situation. Many alcoholics make decisions bases on guilt and fear, so yes I feel it's primarily the alcohol talking when he says he doesn't know what he wants. Speaking from my own experience it sounds to me like the man has a major issue with being alone, he didn't want to come back to you until the OW ended it, and now he's not sure what he wants because he's looking for something to make him feel complete, but is unwilling to commit to you.
In AA terms he has to learn to stand on his own two feet and grow up.
Question: Was he living at home when you two either decided to live together or marry?

As for the mid-life crisis question...could this be your way of justifying some of his behaviors, as opposed to acception his alcoholism? I ask because his behavior is fairly typical for an active alcolohic.

With regards to whether or not I wanted my marriage after the affair, my story goes something like this.
During the affair I wasn't sure if I still wanted my marriage. Towards the end of the affair my wife was in a car accident. Luckily she wasn't seriously hurt, but when faced with the possibility of losing her I realized I did want the marriage after all.
Shortly after that I ended the affair.

I hope that helps?.?

J.