Hello again R.H.,

This time it's just A here...I wanted to add a bit about how things felt for me while J was having his A.

First off, I didn't find out about the A until well after it was over. I honestly thought we had a more challenging marriage than most because my H was a recovering alcoholic and chalked most of our difficulties up to that fact.
We began to have all kinds of trouble...he became unstable with work and started changing jobs at an alarming rate, we couldn't have a conversation without all out war most of the time. He would tell me he was unhappy and didn't know if we had a future together or not, the list goes on and on.
A fair summary would be that we were acting more like roomates that didn't like eachother instead of a married couple.
Then I had the accident, and suddenly things changed. He became thoughtful and attentive, and was very supportive of all the treatment and rehab I needed after the crash. I thought the accident alone had changed his perspective, and it felt like we were rebuilding our relationship.
Then one day I got a call at work from the OW. She didn't come out and tell me she had an A with my H...but I knew.
When I confronted him he lied, and swore that nothing had happened between them. At that point I asked him to leave the house and not come back until he was willing to tell me the whole truth.
He came back a week later, and from there we began our recovery. We went to a therapist and learned that the affair was a symptom of problems in our marriage, and that those issues needed to be resolved or it was likely that another affair would happen.
We also learned that a number of the problems we had were due to the fact that he was alcoholic. He wasn't still drinking, but his mind still worked on alcoholic thinking.
The therapy taught both of us new ways to tackle problems and communicate with eachother. Through out this whole time J also worked harder at AA. Without the combination of the two and this board, I'm not sure we would have made it.

I'm not sure any of this is helpful to you, but if nothing else at least you know we relate to the tough past you've had, and the hard road that still lies ahead of you.

You'll be in our thoughts and prayers.

Take care,
A.

Thanks for the feedback and yes we were both living at home and then went straight to being married.

As far as the mid-life, just heard that it can happen to guys when they are married young and feel a lot of the financial pressure or whatever burden it is.... that sometimes it will propel them into an early to mid 30's mid-life.

He still pines for the other woman. He *67's her cell phone number pretty often so that she won't know who it is and pick up. (have caught that on his phone quite often) He told me he still has feelings for her but they only have phone contact when it relates to business and that it's kept very professional, but that is pretty much because she instilled those boundaries. He has complained to his mom that he wants a friendship with her and his mom said not possible after an affair, he just doesn't get it. Is he confusing sex with with some kind of emotional attachment to her.... what gives I just don't get it??

BTW - I finally saw her won't go into the gory details but she is gorgeous, beautifiul long blonde hair, gorgeous face, very slender athletic body and of course very well put together as she is a director at their company.
I know I shouldn't do this but I just felt so lousy about myself. Yes people say I'm attractive and I can be little Ms. Business Woman and have been there done that, but I was never good enough for my husband. He never thought I worked hard enough or at the same level as him. I always felt so unfairly judged becasue as wives we also carry the roles of house cleaner, gardner, cook, grocery shopper, petcare etc and of course some of us work on top of that. You see the honest truth is I'm a tshirt and jeans take my dogs to the beach girl and at 37 look more like the beach girl then executive. This woman was beautiful and I know my husband saw a strength in her that he never saw in me because in different times in our marriage I had been ill, not throughout but enough issues, that he chalked me up as a big weak burden and I just couldn't live up to his standards.

I feel sooooooo inadequate and hurts incredibly bad. Other people say to me I just don't get your husband, you have a great and kind heart, your beautiful and intelligent and good to him which I really have tried to be. He just sees me as a weak pushover that is not successful enough, doesn't understand business, mind you I've worked at Cisco, Intel all the big companies.............. What do I have to do??? Turn myself inside out.......... I know people what your going to say to me it's not you, it's him!!! I know but why does it still hurt soooooooo bad!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Letstry

I really need to remember this especially after I was getting dished out the verbal abuse tonight.
Thank you!

Hi R.H.,

Please, please, please try not to be so hard on yourself.
As you spend more time here you will come to see that the affair wasn't about you, or any of your perceived short-comings.
Here we have a man that went straight from his parents home into the home you shared. Suddenly there were things expected of him. He needed to be a provider, a partner, a co-maid, a co-pet caregiver...etc.
Perhaps, over time he had difficulty dealing with the pressure of all that he felt was expected in his role as a husband.
One day, in walks the OW. She didn't have expectations or demands. He didn't need to make any payments for her or with her to keep things stable, she didn't need anything from him...and it felt good and easy to be so carefree.
He was able to create a fantasy that didn't place any demands on him...thus making him able to like himself when he was with her.
This is what is termed 'the fog'. While with her he could avoid reality...which is a shortcoming in him NOT you.
The more time he spent in the affair...the more difficult it became to face what he saw as the demands in his real life. And there began the vicious circle.

I am in no way trying to justify his actions...only trying to show you that his decision to have an affair wasn't because of anything wrong about who or what you are...it was about something wrong inside of him.
The OW was just a prop...it wasn't about what she looks like, or what she does for a living...it was about how the fantasy made him feel.

Add to that the distorted thinking of alcoholism and the affair fog becomes that much thicker.

Look in the mirror RH...and remember the things about yourself that are really wonderful...then spend a little time each day trying to let those things shine through. Get to liking yourself again, it's amazing how much strength can come from that.

One more note on the subject of alcoholism....
I was thinking last night that it may help you understand more about the disease if you were to read the book of Alcoholics Anonymous. In that book, alcoholism is defined by a doctor. There is also a chapter written to the wives of alcoholics. The 12 steps of recovery are outlined, and there are a variety of stories related to alcoholism that you may be able to relate to. It might help you find some answers.
People in the AA program refer to this book as the "Big Book" of AA.
To get one just look up AA in your local area (yes, they are in the phone book). Usually the books are sold at the AA central office. Anyone can go in and buy one. I also believe it's available at Chapters and Indigo...but don't quote me on that one.

Hang in there,
A.

A - Thank you, maybe I will have to pick-up that AA book. I am reading the codependent 12 step book. I know I am beating the crap out of myself right now unnecessarily. Your words are very comforting and help me to clearly understand why it happened.

To be honest I'm a bit traumatized right now. The reason I saw the other woman is because my husband kept begging to meet her "to talk" and she finally gave in, they met at a restaurant, this was Monday night. I had been praying that afternoon about the whole situation and felt like the spirit was saying I will close it on her end. I got this terrible feeling and new the exact restaurant to go to. I found them there and to make a long story short, I confronted her, (sent my husband away so she and I could talk). It was very civil no hair pulling or cussing. She was extremely remorseful began to cry and kept saying how sorry she was, and how he made her feel good at a time when she was going through a divorce. He said some really big lies about me (that I was a bed-ridden, ****** etc.) She said your clearly not bed-ridden but a beautiful healthy, lovely woman and she said I guess I just believed what I wanted to believe and it was selfish.

I asked her to stay away from my WH and she kept saying, I know you have no reason to believe me but I will have nothing to do with him other then on a business level. She said she regretted meeting him that evening new it was a bad idea and that he kept bugging her about it. She has two kids and said she didn't want to example an affair anymore and wanted to move on and was keeping it business like on her end with my husband and telling him he needed to see her as a business assoc. (nothing else). She said she had horrendous guilt over it and would carry it for the rest of her life. She proceeded to give me her cell number and said call me anytime, you can hold me accountable that I will not be anything but a business assoc.of your husbands. I'm not going to call her but I know that what she was saying was true because WH has been harping about all this to his mom.

Guess what hurts the most is that he was still contacting her and finally met with her, after I had clearly said to him no meeting women friends outside of work and especially her; that coupled with the fact that he portrayed me in a way that was so untrue and hurtful. I talked to him last night about it and he says he just wanted to talk with her, but I know it's because he misses her. He barely will give me two minutes on the phone and then he can be so unkind, nothing breaks your heart more. This was a man who once was so good and loving to me and it's like an alien lives in him now and he is a complete ogre.

Everything you said earlier is true and I know I just need to focus on me, self healing and things that I enjoy doing that will lift me up, but I'm so in the pits right now, it just feel like wherever I go and whatever I do doesn't stop the pain. Have tried going out with friends etc. and come home profoundly sad and balling. I'm on anti-depressants but they only do so much I suppose.

You said that your accident helped bring the two of you back together and I'm so glad for you both. Two years ago during the affair, I became extremely ill with a kidney stone and had to have surgery. During part of the time before the surgery, he was away at one of the 5 star resorts with her. When he came back, he took me to the hospital and back to my parents after the surgery, dropped me off and then went to be with her, he never called once to check on me and I experienced the most excruciating physical pain I have ever experienced in my life that day. I have felt so abandoned for so long and I'm reeling from that pain alone.

People keep telling me it will get better the pain will lift but its just so hard to see past it, that I will really be happy again one day. I want to be reconciled to my husband when he is a whole sober person, but I want it to be because he really loves me and recognizes that, not because he feels some obligation to me. It's just a mess right now. Sorry to be so negative, but thank you so much for your support, it means so much. :-)

RH,

I truly feel for what you're going through and wish there was something magical I could say to ease a bit of that pain you're feeling.
I know from my own experience there really isn't - time is the only answer.
The meds can help take the edge off, and I hope they do for you...just be careful about becoming too dependant on them or they can be tough to kick. (again...just talking from my own experience).

I did have a thought after reading your last post...

I know it's hard for you to deal with the difficulty your H is having in letting the OW go.
Some of that can be explained by the alcoholism I think.
You see...he has a addictive personality, so letting go of anything that makes him feel good is hard for him.
It isn't that she is so wonderful he can't bear to be without her...it's just that he's addicted to the fantasy he had with her. As the fog lifts and the alien stops asserting itself he may begin to see that.

My hats off to you for how well you handled yourself when you sat with her in the restaurant - I know I didn't do near as well when I talked with my OW.

Take things one day at a time if you can...and do keep trying to focus on some self-healing.
When it get's to be too much, here's a little prayer you may want to try.

God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannont change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Take care,
A

RH, Have you been to Al-Anon yet? I don't know how I would've made it through the mine fields of addiction without it. What people tell you is true. My IC, a long-time member of both AA and Al-Anon, told me that God will give us everything we want, as long as we're willing to give up the form it will take. This has been true for me. I'm truly happier than I've ever been, even though I've lost most of the things I thought I needed to be happy. I've finally understood my mother's favorite saying, which was, "The secret of happiness is to want what you've got."

I'm not saying you can't be reconciled with your H, but that you have to let go of putting this requirement on your happiness. Focus instead on becoming the person you would want to have rather than on trying to make him into that person.

Letstry - I agree with you, that I have to give wanting my husband back to be happy over to God and trust him for whats best. I guess it's a process of letting go for me. I have to be honest about where my heart is that I still want reconciliation, but I understand that if it's meant to be God has to fix it first anyway since it is so broken. If it's not I believe you that God always replaces it with his best for our lives, just like you said you are truly happy now without what you thought would make you most happy.

I haven't been to Alanon lately but I will get back into it.... I know I need to. Thank you for your encouragement!

A - Thank you for those wise words, I think I need to remember that to make sense of his insanity.



This is a prayer I need to pray probably everyday.... Thank you! Your words of wisdom over the last few days have really helped me see things in a more logical perspective and I really appreciate that more then you could know.

RH

I wish I could do more RH...hang in there.
(((hugs)))
A.

Hi Folks -

Just needing a bit of support here. The latest in this soap opera is that my husband found OW was lying to him and seeing other people while screwing around with him. He figured out what a lying scum bag she was and tells his mother he feels like a fool for not seeing her for what she really was in the first place...... that would be the alcohol/A fog.

He has taken a 2 month leave of absense from work because he was performing so poorly due to alcohol, A, guilt, shame all combined. He went to a spa where he learned to meditate to deal with his negative thoughts, hike etc., but we are Christian and he got into this Toltec teaching and a book called the Four Agreements, also was using Medicine cards (you pick an animal and it tells you about yourself??)..... just a little concerned. He knows where to find the truth but he's running to everything but God's truth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Intervention is next Wednesday and he has told his mom he wants to go to rehab and he wants help finding the right one so he seems primed to accept going.

The reason I feel so sad is that I stopped by the house yesterday to pick up a few things (he's staying at our home) and he was just an ice cube with me. I mean wouldn't smile, wouldn't talk, wouldn't give me the time of day.... Ouch it really hurts. I have tried to be really loving with him and tell him after he's been through recovery that I want to go to counseling and work through it, but he still says he doesn't know what he wants and sometimes he wishes I would just divorce him. He also told his mom that he is afraid I will hang the A over his head forever if we begin to work through it (just want to process, forgive and move on), and that he feels like he has always been inadequate in terms of being a provider for me, and that my family will never forgive him.

Is this normal for the WS to look at whatever is negative and just want what they think is the easy way out at the moment instead of working through? Do you think once he is in rehab the 12 steps will bring him back to God and bring him to a place where he would want to work it out with me. Just need to hear some positives people, so down today. He looked at me with disdain and treated me like I was the enemy. Is he still in withdrawal for the OW even though he says he doesn't like her anymore??

Thanks for letting me vent.
RH

Recovering

I should run a thread called What to do with an Alcoholic Wayward Wife. LOL

Good news on my part is that she finally started AA a few months ago and has been sober for five months.

Our M went no where fast because quite frankly and addict loves their addiction more then anything.

He needs to stop the addiction before he can start recovery within your marriage.

Now the good/bad news about the recovery from the addiction. In order for the program to be succesfull they need to focus solely on themselves and avoid anything that may make them want to drink etc. That may mean putting your life or your recovery from the A on hold.

Once they get far enough along then you are dealing with a person that can think clearly and deal with issues in a reasonable manner. My FWW just crawled right into the bottle as a coping method. Not very productive.

If he recovers you may see the husband you once loved.

It is normal for them to look at the negatives because that is probably the way they think they would react. He is projecting what he thinks he would do on you.

yoh -


Kind of had a feeling someone was going to tell me that... he already is in the mode of this is all about me and I have to get whole, well, recover. He keeps telling me this isn't about me, it's all about him. Just kind of hard to hear when someone has ripped your heart out. I know alcoholics are some of the most selfish people on the planet. I guess I have to buckle up for the long haul..... but he is just being so darn negative about the "us part". Is that typical?

Rh

Forget about the seat belt you should get one of those things they have on roller coasters. Because you will be going up and down.

It sure is difficult to hear someone that has been self centered telling you they need to focus on themselves. But it is necessary.

I can tell you one of the hardest things you are going to have to deal with if your FWW is like mine is how they use the AA message to deal with the A. One of the questions they ask is "hows that working for you" When they keep doing the same thing over and over with no results. If she says that to me one more time I will scream. When I wanted radical honesty and I told her that it made me resentful she said "hows that working for you."

You should learn about AA so you know when your FWS is misinterpreting the message.

Make sure he goes to mens groups. There are 13 steppers out there. A 13 stepper is somone that hangs around meetings to find vulnarable people to hook up with. More on the womens side though.

Make sure he has a committed sponser.

Be ready for a whole new group of friends that if he is committed he will be on the phone with a lot.

If this helps her and our marriage I am a happy camper. If it only helps her then again I am happy.

The message of AA is to feel better about yourself so the US part right now doesn't.

I think my biggest fear is sobriety then divorce. Easier to walk away for her then to deal.

YOH


UUhh Boy..... I can tell this is not going to be enjoyable, I don't like roller coasters much.


Yea, I can see how that would make you crazy, you're already telling her how it makes you feel, and shes asking "how's that working for you"; not real sensitive. Have you read that book Freedom From Addiction by Neil Anderson? Great book.... it's goes beyond all the AA stuff and the day to day focus of staying sober for an alcohoic and brings into light how God views the addict, being truly free of addiction and having a much fuller life than just the focus of staying sober each day. It's a Christian perspective and the first half is about one alcholics story of how he became truly free of the addiction. They also have a workbook series that I understand is very helpful... maybe you could do this with your wife.

I hope my WH doesn't pick what he perceives as the easy way out (i.e. divorce), he was a really good guy once and admits the alcohol allowed him to do some really bad things. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

RH

The alcohol allowed my FWW to do some really bad things as well. Most of the bad things benefitted her.

In our last discussion she tried to blame everything on her alcoholism she did wrong. She said she made some really bad decesions because of the addiction. I asked her to name one really bad decesion she made that didn't benefit her. She couldn't. I asked her to name one really bad decesion she made that benefitted me. She couldn't.

Little story. One night we went out while she was drinking she brought a female friend along because her husband was out of town. We were having fun. My FWW met a girl there and they started talking. Her friend and I were shooting pool so my FWW played shuffle board with this girl. I look up and they are talking to two guys.(flirting) When my FWW walks down to the end of the table by where we are the guy follows her and puts his hand on her back and asks for her to be his partner. I was pissed about the flirting. She said to me its not like I am going to sleep with him. As the night progresses the girl she met has lost her ride home. My FWW offers her a ride home. I ask where she lives and it is about a 30 to 40 minute round trip from where we live. I tell my FWW that I will drop her and her friend off and then drop this girl off. My wife now more intoxicated then she was when the flirting occured tells me thats not happening. I say why not she said I am not going to let you be alone in a car with a drunk horney girl. I said I am not paying a babysitter another 8 dollars to drop her off. So we get back to our place and I walk her friend back to her apartment. When I got home my wife had this girl tucked in on the couch with all the lights off. Wouldn't let me near her. Not that I would do anything. The next morning she woke up early to get rid of her. Now when we got into it about her flirting she said she made bad decesions when she was drinking. I pointed out how her decesion making process was pretty damn good that night not letting me be alone with that girl but you blame the flirting on the alcohol. I said you were more intoxicated when you made the good decesion then the bad. Only difference was the bad decesion made you feel better about yourself. The good decesion you made was because there was no benefit for you in the situation.

I understand she has a problem but I am unwilling to accept that as the reason she did everything.

I think the night she started with the OM she wanted it before then got drunk so she had an excuse. What ticks me off sometimes is she was in AA before the A but quit.

I am not saying the addiction did not affect her. All I am saying is I am not giving her blanket immunity for her actions.

YOH -

I can see what your saying about not letting them blame all their actions on the alcohol, but it certainly does influence their behavior in some really negative fashions. At least in my husbands case because he is a maintenance drinker and so their is always a certain amount of it in his system, which never really allows him to reason with a clear train of thought. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

RH

Oh no I agree with that statement. My FWW drank every day and I know she is a very different person when she doesn't drink or she hadn't started drinking that day yet.

However some of her behavior that she blames on the alcohol is not even consistent. She blames the entire month on being drunk. I know enough about that time now to know that isn't true. She missed an event because she was too hung over to go.(her words) When that is really true for my wife she spends the day incapacitated in bed. Then she could not physically drink that day until about 5pm. That will take the edge off and she would be in bed by 9pm. Then fine the next day. I had witnessed this cycle for 5 years. The day she missed the event she was fine to hang out with OM and drink and stay up late enough to fool around. This is physically impossible for my wife if she was really as hung over as she said she was.(reason for missing the event that prompted the trip)
So the reason she missed the event is because she wanted to hang out with him. Nothing more nothing less.

But she blames it on the drinking. I love her, and I am trying to understand the disease but it is not an excuse for her behavior in every part of her A. She tries to use it as one.

Nice to see you back RH...I've been wondering how you've been holding up.

I know you've had a tough week with WH being so negative - it's a hard place to be in, but it will change over time.

YOH has been telling you to get prepared for a roller-coaster ride - and he certainly does have a point. Just remember there is support out there (and here!) to help you engage less in his ups and downs. You CAN detatch to a certain degree (AA plan b) so that your life and emotions need not be so dramatically affected by his.

Also, AA can initially seem like a 'selfish' program - and in certain cases it does need to be, but as the alcoholic progresses in their recovery they are asked to become accountable for their actions and work on making amends to those they have harmed. At this point they get out of their own heads (selfish thinking) and start seeing how others feel.
If you like I can lay out the 12 steps for you so that you know what the progression looks like...just let me know.

You were also asking if it was normal for a WS (and alcoholic) to be so negative and cold...

I can't speak to whether or not it's normal...but I can say my H behaved in a similar fashion.

I remember asking him well into recovery why he was so negative and cruel once I found out about the A.

He said that he was so angry and disgusted with himself that he couldn't see anything positive. He had no idea how to begin healing and lost all sense of self-worth. Because of this he felt he should be treated badly, and lashed out so that I would be as angry at him as he was with himself. He even asked why I didn't just divorce him, and says he did so because he thought it would be 'just punnishment' for the A.

I did fall for that tatic initially, but realized that by doing so I was the only one holding him accountable. My reacting to him was punishing him in a sense...and allowing him to feel as though he had atoned for the A. The only problem is that he hadn't taken responsibility himself. He didn't need to because I was doing it for him.

I took a step back and started treating him differently. I was polite and respectful when we spoke. I wasn't affectionate, but not cold either. Gradually he realized that I wasn't going to fix his feelings for him, and he slowly started acknowledging and accepting how he felt. Once he did that he was better able to work on things.

We each deal with the feelings brought on by affairs and alcoholism in our own way. The best we can do is allow eachother time and space to make that happen under whatever set of circumstances we're in at the time.

Remember...if God brings you to it, God will help you get through it.

Partial AA quote: '...praying only for knowledge of HIS will for us, and the power to carry it out.'

Take care RH...and please keep us posted.

Banyak -

Sorry for the delayed response, I haven't been to the board in a few days, but I'm really glad to hear from you. You always encourage me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It seems like my husband is acting very similar to the way yours did. My husband has also been asking why don't I just divorce him, but then he will also throw in something manipulative like "knowing the state of mind I'm in, why don't you just divorce me?" and after reading your thread, I realize that he is probably thinking the same way your husband was...boat-loads of guilt/shame.

I know he is angry and disgusted with himself but he has also expressed that he is numb toward me and I'm sure that is because he lives in the bottle most of the time, actually I think he is numb towards everything right now.

I'm not sure if we are going to get him to this intervention and rehab. He is out of state at a family event and he and his best friend have hooked up and he is thinking of staying 2 more weeks. His mom is there and trying to talk some sense into him; that he needs to come home and address his real issue, while he is on his leave of absense from work.

Everytime I talk to him, which isn't much it is so painful. When he does call, he is so cold, and he is being very irresponsible with money and since we are already separated, I'm wondering if I should go to Plan B if he doesn't go into rehab..... Thoughts??


That would be great thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The one thing I am struggling with is loving detachment. I fear being alone and sometimes it keeps me from being as strong and less needy. I don't show my neediness around him, at least I really have been trying not to, but I sure do feel that way. I still love him and want reconciliation, but at the same time I want to be healthy and strong on my own and feel like I can have a happy life without him if need be; honestly though I don't feel that I will be okay without him (even though he is a poop-head right now) and it makes detachment harder. I understand that you have to go out do new activities, try new things with friends etc. etc. but lately I just want to crawl into bed and pull the covers over my head. Just being honest, all the wounds are so fresh right now, I feel like a bloody mess.

RH