Thanks for the insight. I should have trusted my gut an entire year ago when I thought something seemed fishy. I kept ignoring it and even ignore it now thinking things are ok. You'd think I would have learned by now...

Give yourself a break normalguy. You love your wife like I love my husband. He was/is my best friend. I never imagined he'd do anything like this to me. You don't want to believe the one person you love the most could do something so painful. I felt stupid I didn't see it coming earlier, too. It didn't even cross my mind. I trusted my husband blindly. I'm learning to trust him again...but not blindly!

Seriously, check out SurvivingInfidelity.com. You'll get a lot more responses. A lot more points of view. They're a lot smarter and more insightful then me, too:)

Good luck.

Well I guess I'm paranoid right now. She kept asking me what was wrong last night (I guess it shows when I'm worried too) and so we talked it out. Turns out she was upset because she felt I ignored her desire for a new fridge. The fridge discussion barely registered to me but for her it really threw her into a funk.

We really need to work on our communication and negotiation. I guess this is how we got here; maybe she just built up so much resenment over little things like this that I barely even noticed? At least now I'm noticing right?! At our next MC session I'll try to bring it up.

normal

You are really not paranoid. Paranoid is having these types of thoughts when there is no proof or foundation for your fears. Basically paranoid is baseless.

I created an e mail account for my wife and I used a password for her account that I use for all of our accounts so she could remember the password. One day someone said they sent us an e mail. When I checked our accounts it wasn't there so I went to check FWW account. Guess what she changed the password. I was freaking out but I can't go to her and say why did you change the password. I of course thought something was wrong. I installed keystroke software on the computer and waited. Next day I had the password. By the way my FWW knows nothing about computers or how to change a password. Then I started snooping again. There was absolutely nothing in her email account and nothing remotely fishy was going on. I checked everything. When I set up the account I made sure it saved all sent emails as well. I checked it over and over. She just wanted some privacy. So was I paranoid? No my FWW has given me reason to not trust her completely.

As far as the Fridge. Is your old one broken or dying? If not then why does she want one. Fridge's are not cheap and so why does she want you to commit to making a purchase that you may be splitting down the road? If she is working really hard toward recovery then I can understand it. Starting to work on the rest of your life together. If she is not working toward recovery then hold off and explain why.

ok makes sense. I guess I knew something was wrong but was incorrect about the cause.

I kind of get the feeling that there is this under-current of a "power-struggle" between us. I'm trying to get our finances back under control (credit card has been running up constantly; had to use a lot of savings last year to get it down and its already back up to several K again). At the same time she just WANTS stuff. New landscaping, wood floors, new front door, new fridge... And lately she buys clothes for herself and passes them off as presents for *me*. "Look at the surprise I got you!" Ok, I like how she looks in them but thats not really a present for me... I thought about going out and getting an Xbox 360 and telling her it was a gift for her to see how happy I am playing it! Hehe, she'd probably be happy, who cares about the credit limit! :-)

Oh well, I feel better that we talked it out. I think we are actually making progress on the money issue so I shouldn't complain so much. I was surprised that it affected her so much yesterday though. She really feels "constrained" by me I guess.

We have a date tonight away from the kids so I'm really looking forward to that. :-)

NG -

As I understand, we need to plan on "trust but verify" for some time. I've been checking my WW's computer activity since the first A 2.5 years ago. Which is how and why I moved in on this A so quickly.

I don't think trust but verify is a bad way to live. Not the ideal way to live, but there are some things we give to get in this, don't you think? And don't you think what we're getting is worth the give? I don't even think of it as giving up. I think of it as a different way to live. Life with WW is now - and will likely always be - trust but verify.

Urge to verify will diminish over time. I know this from the first A. My mistake was in not verifying the M.

oooooh boy... We had what I thought was a great date last night but today she's acting funny again. Did all the things I thought she'd like (and seemed to) dancing, nice restaurant, fun, light, conversation, etc.

But she's being wierd today so I snooped some more... One of the email addresses she was secretly talking to is from her hometown. I had asked who these people were and she said they were random chatroom people and that she just liked the attention, so I dropped it. I told myself it was a weakness but it was just "flirting" or something; she deleted the account she was using and I figured that was enough...

Well after reading this board today I saw mention of a people search servis so I did a search on one of the people and he's about the right age, in her hometown. Last year we took two trips to her hometown. Both were after our first "D-Day" (which was over a person here in our town). Both times she kind of managed to get me stuck at home with the kids while she went "shopping" all day with her mom. At the times I thought I was being such a great husband by cheerfully taking care of the kids during the whole trip. One night she even stayed out until 3am or so. I thought things like "wow, she is really going to be happy with me being so cool about all of this"...

How the heck can this be happening... *still* not telling the truth, telling me everything I want to hear but the truth... What do I do? Tell her? Call SH again first? I definitely want to check phone records for the recent weeks now.

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Help... I'm so mad right now I want to throw her and her stuff out of the house... Maybe she's in withdrawl now? Maybe she thinks she can just bury all of this?

NG -

Is she actively lying about the past or is she not giving you all the details. Is she skipping over stuff? I ask because I think there's a difference. Withholding sounds like standard withdrawl, not wanting to face the guilt, conflict avoidance, etc, etc.

Do you have a copy of "Not Just Friends". There's a lot of information in there about rebuilding in the aftermath of the affair. I'm right in the middle of it myself. There are practical methods for moving through the discovery process.

I'm having the same challenge you're having with respect to revealing details of the affair. I tried to get a very basic question answered - "Were you with him when I took the kids to see my parents?" We were pretty close and tender when I asked so I thought I would be a good time to kick off that part of the recovery process.

She got very quiet, said she didn't want to talk about it then we argued and it was foggy-talk all over again.

So what this told me was that this process is going to take much longer than I thought it would. And that there will have to be a lot of mutual respect and understanding between us before healthy discussion about the A can take place.

Sounds like you had a lovely, intimate and warm evening and now you can't understand why open, honest sharing does not result. Am I right? If so that's exactly what I experienced. And the book I mentioned helps me understand the phases in recovery. And that all recoveries are different - some move fast, some move slow. And that patience is key.

Tell me if I'm on target with any of this with respect to your situation.

Its coverup for the past. I see the difference now. This morning we talked and it went well until I said something disrespectful and she got really really mad. Ug, can't believe I let that slip. So today's been pretty awkward, I definitely screwed up even though I was trying very hard to keep it safe.

I will pick up that book. Thankyou for the recommendation.

Normal,

I wrote this on another thread it is regarding the direct lies, indirect lies and lies through ommision. You know I have waited almost 3 years since D Day to find out the truth and quite frankly each time it gets worse. I wonder today if I would have divorced her if I knew the truth. I really think I would have that some of the things she did will take years to recover from and she is not the type of person to want to spend years recovering.

Each year since the A it has actually gotten worse as far as the details go. I am one month away from the third month anniversary of her A and again I have new details and feelings to go through again. Anyway here is what I wrote about the lies.

So here is an in depth answer to how it works. This answer is based on all of us being somewhat intelligent people. LOL

You have uncovered a lot of information on your own without your FWS help. They have given you some information as well regarding the A. Now once the haze and confusion has lifted, you will start trying to piece together from the information you have on hand what happened during that time.

If you are as I suggested somewhat intelligent you will start seeing some holes in their story. These holes will start to eat holes in you as time goes by. As you start to recognize these holes in their story it will start to make you angry. For me it made me angry for several reasons the first reason is that I felt like my FWS was insulting my intelligence. There are several other reasons that it made me angry as well. Most importantly all of the justifications, reasons or excuses my FWS gave me for her dishonesty. (ie, I forgot, I didn't think it was important, etc.) Made me angry. This is a huge LB. As long as you are fairly certain your FWS is not being honest with you there will be resentment on your part. Which is and always be an LB.

So now you will be in a cycle that will probably not end until the truth comes out. The cycle can cause huge problems with your recovery. For me what has happened is I know my FWS was not being honest. BTW I was right. So when I hit a trigger that reminded me of the A, I felt an overwhelming sense of resentment that I know my FWS was being dishonest with me. I would start to think about what I DID NOT know about the A. At this point I would start to withdraw from my FWW. She would then withdraw from me. After a few days she would ask "What did I do wrong now". I would say you haven't done anything wrong now. I am still waiting for you to be honest with me. This issue is going to haunt us for the rest of our time together. My FWS of course CHOSE not to be honest with me. So our cycle lasted almost 3 years now. This in no way shape or form has been helpful to our marriage.

Now we all know the reasons we have heard from our FWS about why they CHOSE not to be honest. Under every, excuse, reason or justification is one clear honest truth. They do not want to deal with the ramifications of their actions. They are the ones that made a decesion to do everything they did during the A. They may truly believe that if you knew everything that you will never forgive them or you won't want to be with them. This may very well be right but they have no right to mislead you. If you knew everything they did and you do want a D then that is a ramification they will have to deal with.(this being the worse case scenario of course) They chose to act a certain way and through deception they are trying to limit our reaction. This may benifit them but it does not benefit you or your marriage.

Now each time you find out a new detail that they have chosen not to tell you it will cause you more pain. Sometimes the pain is more then it was when you discovered the A. So now you are somewhat certain that more pain is coming because they have not been honest with you. Can you commit fully to recovery? I don't see how you can recover from something you are not aware of.

So you keep snooping and checking up on them because you really can't or shouldn't trust some one who is dishonest. Then comes the resentment on their part. You have or probably will hear from your FWS that "at some point you need to start trusting me for this marriage to work, I am starting to get tired of you checking up on me all the time." I made it perfectly clear to my FWS as should you that you will probably never trust them again if they refuse to give you the truth. MY FWS unfortunately thought that she could restore my trust by letting time pass not by telling the truth. So since D Day I have not trusted her.
Nor should I have.

I like to use analogies when I speak with my FWW regarding our marriage. I used this one to try to let her understand the importance of honesty.

We had a house together before your A. Clearly there was something wrong with the foundation. Our house was destroyed by your A. I have chosen to try to build a new house where the old one stood. I do not wish to build a new house on a faulty foundation because it will just come down again. The foundation needs to be strong to make sure when a storm hits our new house will not come crumbling down. Trust is the foundation of your marriage. So far you have decided to try to rebuild our house on a faulty foundation and it keeps crumbling to the ground. At somepoint I might have to make a tough decesion on whether or not I want to start rebuilding yet again. If I look at the same faulty foundation it would make sense not to build on it anymore. So if you CHOSE not to help solidify the foundation with the truth that is your choice. But next time the wind blows our house will come crashing down yet again. Sooner or later all we are going to have is a hole in the ground that really has no value.

I promise you if you tell me the truth and you are completely honest with me it will only strengthen my love for you and give us a good foundation for the rest of our lives together.

With that being said every good weekend you have will end up being tainted. Sooner or later it will end your marriage.

I am at that point right now. I might decide it wasn't the A. It wasn't what she did during it. It is how she dealt with it. I told my FWW one time that I never determine the type of person some one is by the mistakes they make. I determine what type of person they are by what they do and how they act after they made the mistake. If they try to avoid the ramifications or sweep it under the rug I do not belive they are a very good person.

Well we've had a day or so to process what she told me and what happened in our argument/discussion. During our last trip to her home, she went out with her girlfriends to a bar and stayed out really late. Apparently she met a man and got his email address and this is one of the people she was emailing. She says nothing happened and that she doesn't know him very well, "it was only talk". She says she isn't/wasn't in love with him, etc. This trip was 6 months after the first 'd-day' and I had been 'plan-Aing' my butt off; well probably not doing a perfect job due to my own depression and fear but still, working my butt off.

The other day I asked her who the emails were too. She said "chatroom" people. I asked her if one was from her hometown, she said no and nothing happened there. Specific question, specific wrong answer.

So I brought it up on Sunday morning. I LB'd at some point and she really lost it. Throwing things breaking things, etc. A lot of resentment came out and I backpedalled as hard as I could. The rest of the morning turned into me apologizing.

So, now I know that the trip I was trying to be the perfect little husband she was out looking... Even giving me guilt trips about doubting her. And then she maintained contact for the next 6 months.

Based on what she's telling me, I think we're at the point where she does want to be with me and she is not currently cheating. So the situation has improved over the year. She says she wants to just focus on us and our future and not the past. But, she's dragging her feet with regards to another counselling session and she says she doesn't understand why I need to know "details". It must be just more coverup because I think anyone could understand why I'd care about the difference between "random chatroom contact" and "guy I met in the bar in my hometown".

I agree that this stuff does insult your intelligence and it does build up resentment when things aren't going great. When we're really taking care of each other you do start to think you could just forget about the little nagging unknown questions but when you have a few bad days boy they start to *bother* you.

I have a counselling session scheduled for tomorrow so hopefully I'll get some ideas on how to proceed. She is saying now that she might not be interested in counselling; apparently I'm the one who is stuck on the past while she is happy and focusing on the future.

Thanks for the replys!

"apparently I'm the one who is stuck on the past while she is happy and focusing on the future."

I have heard this a million times. Wow it seems as though there is a website out there that the FWS go to for standard answers and statments.

Yes there is a difference between a random chat room guy and a guy she met in a bar.

The random chatroom guy could be in the south pole while the other guy is pretty easily available. Both are wrong though. So the question is why do you keep doing something that is wrong. Is it her stance that it is ok to chat with random guys?

I don't get WS' if you did that would she get mad? Hey honey what ya doin. Oh nothing sweetie pie I am chatting with this girl right now on the internet. Oh really thats nice do you want me to leave so you can have some privacy? Oh if you don't mind that would be great. I am gonna start talking dirty to her and its kinda hard to do that when you are in the room. Ok no problem but before I leave you alone what do you want for dinner tonight. If you don't mind running down to Boston Market I could really go for some chicken. Plus I want to call her so I would need you to leave for a while. OK what side dishes do you want with that.

Sounds pretty stupid when you say it out loud.

She does admit it was wrong and has apologized. She first apologized without actually admitting what she did though.

The thing that haunts me now is that logically I can't trust what she told me about the first affair. That stuff was *really* swept under the rug. All the explanation I got for 6 months of cheating (according to phone records) was "nothing bad happened". I know way more from my sleuthing than from what she told me. I thought I was over it but its all coming back now... I know she won't react well at all if I ask about it... Of course how will I react if I find out it was physical after all...

I'm hoping the counsellor will have a plan for resolving this. I truely think she is trying now; she just wants to move on.

normal

I am so sorry for your pain.

I use the old Benjamin Franklin test when I am making decesions. Everyone is different so the results will be different. Fold a sheet of paper in half. All the positives go on one side and all the negatives go on the other. I use a point system as well. A positive might be a plus 5 but a negative might only be a negaive one.

What are the Positives and Negatives for sweeping it under the rug? For me the Positives did not out weigh the negatives so I had to know. No Gorry details though.

I can tell you really love your FWW and want to make it work. I wish you all the luck in the world.

"Of course how will I react if I find out it was physical after all...

The question really is how will you react if you find out it was physical three or four years from now? That may very well happen sometimes the FWS gets remorseful or feels guilty and they need to tell you at some point to relieve their guilt.

Well Normal;

I've looked over your thread and believe you should very carefully up your snooping. Purchase a few voice activated digital voice recorders at Radio Shack. Get the microphone extensions and a/c adapters. Go in the attic, find and plug the recorders into the outlet (run extension cords carefully if you must) and extend the microphones into the ductwork down to specific rooms in the home. Once that is established then you can finally reveal to wife the extent of the information you have obtained with the keylogger and perhaps attempt to establish a boundary that wife be taken off-line. Simply remove the computers from the home.

I have heard Dr. Harley advise several persons that had numerous on-line EA that they are to give up the computer. That in order to affair-proof their marriages they should give up their temptation tool. Maybe this would be suggested as a temporary course of action or maybe permanant. Maybe the children will need the home computer but wife can't use it for a year or ever. Something needs to stop here from pursuing her "fantasy" relationships on-line. It's an escape from reality. Of course, you should discuss this plan of action more on MB or with Dr. Harley himself as I am not familiar with the proper way to handle this.

Further, another recorder could be placed in her car under the passenger seat. Be very careful not to get caught especially with that one.

The point of the recorders is you may actually OBTAIN the truth without having to wait for her to give it to you. You absorb the truth and monitor the who, what, where, when and why's as she discusses them, if at all, with her friends that happen to be "in the know" or some OM. You NEVER reveal this source of intelligence. You keep it close to the chest. Months later, if you get some real dirt, you can merely say you overheard one of her conversations standing next to the door of her room or the bathroom. If she is WW she will never remember WHERE the conversation she had months ago occurred. In the alternative, you may get the opportunity to bluff, saying that friend XYZ told you EVERYTHING including this fact and this fact (making the bluff believable) or you hired a PI and he/she found everything including this and this and that then hopefully she'll break down and tell you it all.

The advantage is, you get the truth without the effort and while you continue your Plan A. You get to confront her on your timetable and hopefully AFTER you've made enough Love Bank deposits that she'll be ready and willing to begin with the honesty and you NEVER tell her you recorded her (especially cause you'll need to maintain the monitoring for awhile). If, one day, she becomes fully repentent, honest and thankful that you did all you did to save your marriage and family, you can tell her. I, personally, waited about 8 months into recovery before I told Mrs. W (though my last recording was around June 10, 2005).

On the flip side, if you do divorce, you'll get all the evidence you need in court to assist you in any custody dispute. The recordings may lead you to many other pieces of evidence that will also come in handy for divorce...like what she is spending money on, if she's hiding money, etc.

Worst case scenario, your wife doesn't have a single friend she confides all her secrets too. Then you'll be a square one and the truth will remain hidden until she fesses up. Be sure to IMPLY (not lie) when you reveal the keylogger that you are completely done snooping. She needs to feel safe being dishonest.

Don't know if this helps. I just think it would be easier for you to snoop the truth than wait for her to give it to you while your imagination gets the best of you. Further, the TRUTH is often a huge stumbling block for recovery. Waywards are often SO RELIEVED once it's finally out there but will go for years before revealling it themselves. Until you get the truth, she may waffle back and forth...do I leave him and keep the truth or tell him and risk him leaving me, exposing me AND risk losing my kids in a custody dispute and perhaps more $$$ in the divorce.


Mr. Wondering

p.s.-GPS her car too. I would highly suspicious of the activities at the gym. Gyms are a very dangerous place for a fogged out WW to be.

wow, thanks for the tips. I doubt I'll find anything right now though. I talked to the counsellor today and she has also agreed to another session soon so we're making progress. I think I'll give it some more time. Should have gone into counselling a year ago too.

Normal

Depending on where you live it doesn't matter what she did when it comes to a D. I live in a no fault state meaning there are only two grounds for a D. Insanity, very hard to prove, and irreconcilable differences. Yes we have a difference she wants to be with other men and I don't want her to. LOL.

Plus the recordings usually cannot be used in court. As a matter of fact where I live it is a misdemeanor to record private conversations.

It sounds as all of this may be a moot point if your FWW is working with you.

They might not be usable as direct evidence but you MAY be able to use them to impeach her testimony if she lies in deposition or better yet, open court. Further, you'll be able to obtain other evidence as a result of knowing what she's up to. Finally, you'll know the truth about your life. I got much more information listening in on my wife's conversations with her best friend than I did listening to the nonsense between her and OM.

Also, the illegality in most states is related to tapping phone lines. Merely a recorder in the house only hearing one side of conversations (like a nanny cam) is often not illegal. Legality aside...don't get caught and if you do deny it was you. Act like she is trying to set you up. Use cash to purchase the recorders and hide the receipts well. Without proof, no prosecutor is willing to go after a betrayed spouse trying to protect himself from a wayward spouse. They are not concerned with domestice cases and will rarely if ever take on such case because spouses rarely testify against each other. Once the anger subsides, the offended spouse will usually recant and refuse to testify.

Moral here...don't get caught, but get the truth however you can.

Mr. W

I agree with you snoop but don't get caught.

Don't forget the keystroke software for the computer. Logs everything they type including websites and passwords. I got my FWW new password that way.

Found out some things about the babysitter too. To bad she is to young and I am married. LOL.