I've been keeping a journal for a few months and I just went back over it. Knowing what I know now, I can see some definite patterns even recently. Anyway I'm thinking more and more about your advice MrWondering. I guess I'm just not thinking clearly and have not been for the past year.

normal,

You know how I feel about radical honesty but a little time may be good here.

Is your FWW still going to MC with you?

Do you think there is still contact with someone or are you just trying to find out the whole truth?

I am sorry things are not going well for you right now. Hope things get better.

If the recording helps give you a piece of mind go for it just don't get caught.

Hmmm, I guess things are actually going pretty well. She is continuing marriage counselling and has gotten over our last "fight" pretty quickly. I'll give it more time. Its a marathon right? :-)

I can see she is trying. I don't want to mess that up. I've made it this far with a 99% positive approach so I'll stick with it.

There you go. I am not saying ignore it if it is ongoing. That is different.

If it is not ongoing just pace yourself you just got out of the gate. Details will come out if you want them but she has to know you will not freak out as well.

I think you are doing the right thing if you are not worried about contact.

Good luck

Thanks again for your detailed reply Mr W. I bought a recorder today and its in the steering column. Not sure if it'll pick up voices but it shouldn't be found at least. I'm feeling guilty and afraid of getting caught... I was thinking about waiting until after our next two counselling sessions but then again I bet those might cause her to want to talk to her friend so the days after might be a rare opportunity...

I hope I don't get caught. I feel bad about this.

NG - I can relate to how you're feeling. I had a HUGE pit in my stomach when I went to buy my recorder from Radio Shack. Felt very nervous and creepy stashing it in her car too. Normal to feel that way. It's not what either one of us thought we'd be doing at this stage in our lives.

Mrs. W pointed out to me that we have to "inspect what we expect." So I'll be putting the recorder back in WW's car when she returns from her mother's.

Get ready for more bad feelings if you do catch something. I got WW talking to OM, hearing her say ILY. Talking to him with a level of comfort she hasn't used with me in I don't know how long. Even caught a lover's quarrel! I know that WW is not talking to OM but it'll still be a shock to hear her talking about you without you around.

Like I said - neither of us expected to or wants to be where we're at right now. Fact is we are.

Well I waffled back and forth on the recorder but ended up trying it out. It couldn't pick up voices the first time so I had to get a mic. Re-installed, put in new batteries but all I got was her talking to me (yay). This was the day after counselling so I thought she might be emotional and want to talk with either a friend or a "friend" (if there is one).

Its out now, I was afraid of getting caught and I'm seeing more positive signs from her. I think the couselling is actually starting to help. I was worried when right before her last counselling session she made some comments about how she felt forced into counselling and was in a generally foul mood. Afterwards she was very quiet and I could tell she was thinking a lot. But that night she told me that he helped her come to some realizations about how this happened. She said things like she has to be aware of her weaknesses and that even though our marriage was not satisfying her that she made the choice. Lots of "I'm sorry" and "I hope you can trust me again some day". (Not "I hope you still trust me" or anything like that) Then we proceeded to have one of the best days together ever.

I'm still watching the computer and the phone bill but there aren't any signs of an ongoing affair; maybe I caught this latest stuff before she got too attached. The recorder just seems too aggressive right now. I'm trying to keep the "Plan A" going strong. Last night when she got home from work (an hour after me) I had the dishes done, our room clean, flowers and a bottle of her favorite "beverage" on the table and we had a really really nice evening (for *both* of us).

I'm going to take it slow and try to just focus on "my half of the equation" which is to continue to improve the day-to-day conditions of the marriage. My head is still exploding with questions but the counsellor (SH) told me to just focus on learning her ENs and meeting them for now. Life could be a *whole* lot worse!

Good for you Normal!!!!!

Now a little warning for you. Things on your side seem to be progressing well. The dinner part is great.

Do not expect anything in return!!!!! I do not mean this in a negative way. You should not be doing these things hoping she does something equally great for you. Do them because you want to.

I made that mistake so I am warning you not to. When I did something really nice I thought she would see how great I was and do something in return. If she didn't it upset me. What an idiot I am. The best thing I got in return was her happiness and that should have been enough.

Keep on doing what you are doing it will make her happy and that should be your goal.

Yup, I definitely try not to "expect" anything these days. Just trying to make deposits in her old LB whenever and however I can. Thanks for the words of warning!

Earlier in plan A I was "expecting" things and getting upset when I didn't get anything and so on. Definitely not productive! Its actually *worse* because you make them think you're just doing nice things so you can get what you want from them. It basically erases any positive effect of your efforts.

In the long run, if she's happy, I'm gonna be happy (and we'll be happy). So yeah, just trying to focus on the long term and my part of the equation.

A month or so ago I also came to a realization with respect to saying ILY. If I say it and then wait or expect her to say it then I kind of erase any meaning it has (just forcing her to say it to you). Now if I feel like saying it I just say it and don't leave any awkward pauses or have any expectations. And sometimes if she's in a foul mood she doesn't say it back, and I just don't worry about it. I used to get really upset about that. I don't know if this means anything to anyone but it seemed like a turning point for me once I could just let that go.

That was a turning point definately!!!

At least you weren't an idiot like me. LOL

Now I give and I see I am getting it back just differently.

Feels pretty darn good.

Oh I don't know about that, I was an idiot for quite a while too. I think I did more damage than help for the first six months or so.

Well we are only human. Just do our best right! Keep depositing :-)

The counsellor is having us focus on meeting ENs and we have had a great string of days. Last weekend was the nicest weekend I can remember for quite a while.

Unfortunately last night we had a bit of a setback. While we were doing bills together on the computer, I brought up the cellphone company page. She was in and out of the room and while I thought she wasn't looking I started looking at the call log. I wasn't even really feeling suspiscious but I just started looking. She got really hurt when she saw me trying to hide the fact that I was looking. It was a pretty cold night, she didn't talk to me much, no affection, etc. I couldn't sleep much. Kind of felt like a lot of the progress was erased; she had been treating me really well. She was starting to come out of it this morning so I'll just try to stay positive.

Normal,

It is normal to look through the bills and the call logs.

You have every right to do this. You are entering into a new relationship with your FWW. One that needs to be based on trust. It in no way shape or form your fault that you have a need to verify that everything is still ok.

I think what your FWW is going through is guilt. She feels guilty you have a reason to do that.

Stay positive and you may even tell her how relieved and happy you were that there was nothing there to hide. Let her know how much that has made you happy. BTW keep doing it because then she knows you will do it and she will get caught if she does.

I still go through all the bills with a fine tooth comb. We had changed cell phones and the bill wasn't coming to us. The first words out of her mouth were "I didn't throw them away" She called the cell phone provider and asked why we weren't getting them. They deleted our apartment number so they were getting returned. She asked for all the bills we were missing with the call logs to be sent to us. When we got them she gave them to me. If you have nothing to hide then it becomes a non issue.

NG - this is who we are now. Snooping and suspicion is an unfortunate side-effect of the A. If it makes you feel stronger about the M to look and find nothing, then your FWW will support it.

I say this but have yet to be where you are since WW is not yet back from MIL's. So I'm saying this more for me than you. I suspect that WW and I will come up on some of those uncomfortable evenings as well when it feels like there's been a big step backward. I did read somewhere that recovery is two steps forward, one back.

Best to you, looks like you've got your head on straight.

Wow I'm feeling suspiscious these days. She's been acting really good but if she's a half hour late in calling me or something my mind can start generating evil scenarios...

Now that I've caught her in blatant lie after lie I'm starting to have questions about past details. For a long time I guess I was operating under the assumption that she was *hiding* things from me but not actually *lying* to me when I asked questions after this came out. Now that I've seen look me straight in the eye lying over and over it opens up a whole *bunch* of questions.

Dunno where this is going to take us. SH pointed out that the best outcome is a "net zero" (no new information) but if that were the case I don't think she'd be having so much difficulty right now.

Last night I noticed that she tries to avoid really *kissing*. Pecks are ok and frequent but nothing more. When I tried (with no possibility of SF or anything) I noticed some really wierd body language.

Oh well, I'm trying to take things slowly. Managed to control my reaction to that realization. Things could be a LOT worse. I *think* I'm doing a good job of meeting her ENs and I can see her trying to meet mine too. The computer is clean and her cell seems to be too. Couldn't get call details from the phone company for the home phone though.

Well then you should start reading from the start of your own thread. LOL.

I know I have pointed out to you if you feel you need to know then you should find out.

The details are up to you. Again I would always say that the gory details should be left alone.

I had a three year cycle of good followed by bad because I Knew she was being dishonest. More then anything just like you I could not deal with being looked in the eye and lied too.

The net zero thing is right.

Quetion for you. If you were talking to your FWW 6 months from now and a new detail slipped or came to light how would you feel? If it will damage you or your relationship you should know now. That is why I wanted the truth from her. Things will slip or come to light sooner or later.

It took me 3 years of this cycle before I was unwilling to get punched in the stomach again with a new detail.

Remember you need to make her feel comfortable when she is honest. No judgement, No Lb etc.

Keep up the controlling your reactions that will help.

Yes, I guess I'm reiterating things I've said before. I'm just starting to have new and more questions now. I'm sticking with the counsellor's roadmap through this; hopefully she will give the truth when the time comes.

Not worried about you reiterating things. That is normal. I fear you are waffling a little. One day you want to know everything the next thing not to sure.

You need to decide. It is not fair to the FWS if you do not know what you want. If things are fine for 3 weeks because you think you don't want or need to know but then you decide you do things will change based on your waffling.

If you chose a course that you are fine with what you know stick to that course. You must chose because you certainly do not want to give FWS conflicting messages. This may cause resentment on her part.

Not saying you need it today you are right you need to give her time and be patient. However you cannot waffle when it comes to wanting to know. Make it clear you want to know and you are willing to be patient and loving until you get there

Good points, thanks for that post, I have to really get it clear in my mind what I want to know. She knows I have questions and that I've been putting them aside right now.

I just want to be confident that I'm no longer being lied to. Just be back on level ground with her. I feel like she is "taking" something from me by expecting me to just let go of everything. I want to be allowed to chose her with full knowledge and I should not have to force or trick her into giving me the information.

Just venting, thanks for listening :-)

Well then let me tell you how to clear up any of the problems that arise when trying to get to the truth.

My FWW like yours seemed to be ready and willing to have information confirmation conversations. What I mean by that is I had the information and she confirmed my information. She believed that if I did not ask she did not have to expand upon the answer. She did lie at one point but I never asked again so no reason to go back and clear up the lie. She said that she has been answering every question I asked now with honesty.

She told me to ask anything I wanted to ask so I finally asked this one simple question. Will you please tell me from the start of your contact with the OM to the end of your contact with the OM exactly what happened? I do not want gory details.

I told her that this was really her last opportunity to do so if she ever wanted me to really trust her. I did not threaten a D or any other reprecussions other then not having my trust. I said if you can live the rest of our time together without trust then so be it. If you can live with me checking on every detail of your life that does not match up exactly with what you have said that is your choice.

I never want you to ask me again when am I going to trust you. You have the answer. I will not give you trust you must earn it. The ball is in your court which do you want?