Thanks, that gave me some more ideas for when that day comes.

What are the legalities of obtaining transcripts of cell phone text messages? Can I go to a lawyer and get a court order or something to get my wife's text messages from 1.5 to 1 year ago? Both of our phones are on the same account but the bills have her name on it.

I'm not sure if I want to do this yet but is it possible?

Your chances are slim to none.

First off I don't know how long they are required to keep them. So they might not even have them.

Second of all what legal bases do you have to ask for them? I can't think of any unless you tell them you think FWW is a terrorist. which I would highly advise against. LOL.

I've backed off on the snooping pretty much completely now. Counselling seems to be helping my W a bit. Following the advice of the counsellor, I had a conversation with her about how we could rebuild trust but it didn't really resolve anything. She did say she understood why I felt the need to snoop and that it was her fault. She said its hard living that way and it stresses her out. At the end of the conversation I asked her:

"How do you feel about me?" After a long pause, without a lot of emotion, she said "I'm happy, you treat me well."

At the time I took this very positively (even now, could be a lot worse!) But now that I think about it, thats almost like being told "lets be friends".

I guess her LB still is not full or she takes me for granted. I was hoping for more.

"How do you feel about me?" After a long pause, without a lot of emotion, she said "I'm happy, you treat me well."

The moral here is never ask a question you might not like the answer to.

I don't know if her LB is full or if she is taking you for granted. Maybe she is still in the fog and is afraid to pull closer to you right now.

You should at least feel good about the positive afirmation she gave you. She is Happy you are treating her well. She recognizes you are trying and this could be a very positive first step.

normalguy,

Found ya! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I read the first and last pages of your thread. I see now why you were interested in my thread on trust. You don't have it yet, and want it desperately. This is SO understandable.

Assuming you read my entire thread (since it's not very long yet), do you remember the post I made that talked about the fact trust is the very last thing restored to a M? This is the absolute truth, IMO, for people who are truely in recovery. Hopefully you're not offended by this, but I'm not sure you and your wife are truely in recovery yet. Why do I say this? Because you are not utilizing all of the MB principles, especially radical honesty. Did your wife ever write a NC letter? Does she have a NC plan in case there is accidental contact? Does she know how to protect her weaknesses (i.e. flirting)? It sounds to me like your wife needs more direction in her recovery. Is she receiving IC? What do you guys do for MC? I'm sorry if this will make you repeat yourself on this thread, but I couldn't read the whole thing.

I'm very concerned about your wife's status in your recovery. It sounds like she is still in withdrawl and the fog. This could be because she has been involved in EA's for so long. Do you actually know how long she's been flirting with men online? I'm sure you know this, but the longer she's been involved in EA's, the longer her withdrawl/fog period is going to be. Dr. Harley believes length of A = length of withdrawl. I agree with this.

Like hurtingless, I agree you should feel you have the right to snoop. I'd give you some words of caution about this though. Go ahead and snoop, but try not to do it because you want to trust her again. That probably sounds crazy, but here's why I tell you this. Your snooping is to make your wife accountable for her actions. If you find info. you shouldn't, this opens up doors to open and honest conversation. Open and honest conversation is sometimes horribly difficult. Especially if you both hate conflict (I read that previously). It is absolutely essential, however, in order to recover. Not performing love busters during heated conversations can be very difficult, but also essential, so that both parties feel "safe" to share anything and everything. Radical Honesty. One of Dr. Harley's most controversial principles, but IMO, those who do not follow this principle, never completely heal their M. They will never fall in love and stay in love, the ultimate goal of Dr. Harley's program.

I gotta get going, but will try to post more later.

Take care and God bless,

KJ

I agree that we're not really in recovery yet. I had to twist her arm to get her to do counselling and she still seems to think this should all just go away now that she decided to end contact.

We had a conversation about snooping where she started to describe a plan where she could keep track of the calls she makes for me. I know her homework from the marriage builders counsellor was to make this plan but our conversation kind of fizzled out. I need to bring it back up again. We did not clearly cover everything in that conversation because we were both uncomfortable. I agree that we are both not practicing radical honesty. I let her "bully" me in a conversation whenever she gets uncomfortable and end up apologizing and backpedalling when I really should stand up for myself. I also don't always tell her what I really feel but I hope we can get there some day.

Do you think it would be good for me to propose a plan? I wrote something up that I could email or just have a conversation with her. I would rather she comes up with the plan so its not like I'm taking control of her. I don't know; if she was "in recovery" I think she'd be trying to win my trust back but maybe it doesn't work that way. Instead she acts like its a burden, a chore, if I *need* her to do this then she'll try, etc. Not sure what my next step is but I have a lot of questions for the counsellor now.

I don't know how long she's done the online flirting. It may have been many years for all I know.

normalguy,

It's okay, what your wife is doing is all too familiar to me. I used to sulk and pout just before our sessions with SH, because I felt so much like a little child getting reprimanded for something I would rather just forget about all together. I would bet good money she is still in withdrawl and has fog-thinking. If she's been doing this for years, you really have your work cut out for you. She is an addict, one who has been undiscovered for a long time. Her addiction is more engrained in her than someone like me who had a short-lived A. She has taught herself many tricks to keep her addiction alive. It is up to you to help her through the withdrawl from her drug. It doesn't seem fair, I know. You are the BS and now have to save your WS. Seems so backwards, but in my case, if my H hadn't taken charge of our sitch, we'd be nowhere.

If an MB therapist gives you guys exercises to do, you MUST do them! I complained about that too, but my H persisted and it's paid off. Yes, I would get angry, we would have "words", but without that radical honesty, we would
have remained stagnant.

Radical Honesty is much more difficult for me than it is for my H. I grew up in a family that did not show much emotion, that did everything to avoid conflict. This is something that is so engrained in me, and I realize it isn't going to change overnight. It takes extremely hard work and perserverence. Nobody told you this was going to be easy. As I stated previously, IMO, Radical Honesty is paramount.



Fine, let her pout, but make her do the counseling and the "homework" they suggest. You can't get any better than the MB counselors, great decision there. Trust me, she will continue to come out of the fog and wake up to the purpose of all of this. I know you want to SEE more effort from her, but hang in there fella, this too shall pass.

No, you cannot make a plan for her, she has to do this alone, then go over it with you. You need to be allowed to make constructive critisism (without LB'ing) about the plan. I'm not sure I understood what type of "plan" you were talking about, but whatever it is, she needs to do it.

You are making progress guy, just keep pluggin' away! Find the help YOU need to keep you strong and focused.

Are you guys spending at least 15 hours a week together, one-on-one quality time? Another MUST IMO.

KJ

Good good good. The 'plan' I'm was referring to is (I believe) her plan to prove to me that no contact is happening. I would assume it would include opening up cell phone records, email passwords, etc.

We have been spending a lot of time together; I would say its over 15 hours a week and we've been going on a date every weekend. Also we're going on vacation to an un-named remote tropical location for the next 4 days without the kids and we're both looking forward to it. So, I'll put all of this on the backburner and just have fun for a few days.

When we get back, I'll get us in a more consistent routine of once a week counselling and I'll be more proactive about the assignments.

normalguy,

Good for you. My H and I took a week-long tropical vacation during week 3 of NC. It couldn't have happened at a better time. I can't be sure, but I believe it helped me get through withdrawl faster. Just a word of caution.... don't expect ANYTHING to happen on your trip as far as recovery goes. I mean no SF, no gushing affection, no talk about the A, etc. If anything happens, it happens, but don't force it. Just relax and enjoy each other.

"The Plan" you are referring to is the NC Plan. You don't have the content exactly correct. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Your wife should be allowing you full access to her e-mail, phone records, etc., but this is not part of a NC plan. That would just be called being honest and open, practicing radical honesty. The NC is a plan for your wife to follow, should she receive contact from the OM. For example, what if the OM calls her at work. What is her plan to maintain NC? She needs to come up with 8-10 scenerios, and responses to each. My answer to the above example is, "hang up the phone, without talking to OM, then call my H to discuss it with him." She'll need to be creative, thinking about scenerios she might not expect to happen, but she should write them up any way. This exercise is invaluable to both spouses. It teaches the WS to practice what they preach, and it offers affirmation to the BS that the WS is continuing with NC. Believe me, when you need to go over this plan with your BS, it is VERY difficult to lie!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Although I never lied, I know my H would sense it if I weren't being sincere.

This is really stupid, but I forgot counselling had two L's in it, until your post! I looked it up, and there it was in the dictionary! Man, do I feel stupid!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> And I even work in the human services field!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Have an awesome trip!!

KJ

Normal,

Looks like things are going good. Keep up the good work and have a nice trip!!!

Reach back and pat yourself on the shoulder for me.

Ok, back from the trip. It was AWESOME. The best vacation and the best time I've had in my life. I only fought back a couple of triggers and just avoided a couple of things that would have led us into a conversation about our current problems. At one dinner she told me she felt like I was her best friend. Now, when you're dating you really don't want to hear that but in recovering from something like this I think it is a good sign. We were even calling this trip our second honeymoon.

A couple days afterward I brought up the conversation we had before the trip about her "plan" and things went off the tracks. The talk started out ok but got more and more tense. Before the trip she said she could keep track of her cell calls and go over them with me. I asked about what we could do about the computer. I was hoping she was in the mindset of wanting to work to regain my trust but she isn't. She said I could install something if it would "make me feel better". She said she didn't know how long she could take living under scrutiny. She said this is always about "how she did something bad". She said she was unhappy for a long time. She said she never had a chance to have her own life. She said she won't be "kept". It just kept going downhill.

I didn't do a very good job of standing up for myself. This is typical of our conversations. If we ever get anywhere close to the "hard stuff" she goes off and basically implies that she wants to leave so I backpedal. I told her I wanted her to tell me about anything that is making her unhappy *now* so I could address it. I told her she could tell me anything. Since she brought up the past that she was unhappy about I figured its best to validate her feelings and offer to do whatever I can to help. I guess I hope that she can see my example and follow it some day. Let me get this crap off my chest *for once*. She thinks I bring it up all of the time but I *constantly* suppress it and whenever I do bring things up I never get 3 words in before it degenerates into basically her threatening to leave. Then I start to talk about her issues and she softens up and says things are good now and she believes I've changed and then the conversation is over. After this one she was kind of cold the rest of the night and this morning.

During the conversation I said that I'm not going to install anything since I want it to be her idea, not me forcing it on her. I don't know if that was the best result but she has been clean for a few weeks now.

She felt that I should be over everything. She was upset that I went from talking about how great the trip was straight to bringing up our problems. I scheduled counselling for tomorrow. This is another area that I think she is resenting right now. I'm "forcing" us to go to counselling where everything is all about punishing her. But we can't just ignore this stuff. Its *obvious* we can't talk about it by ourselves.

I think in the next counselling session I'll make a point to bring up the things she said about how she didn't want to be "kept", felt like she didn't ever get to have her own life, etc. I want her to *know* that the issues she has are important to me too.

Please advise!

Normal,

Glad you had a great trip.

No advice right now. I do have some things to say but don't know exactly how to articulate them.

You might want to re read some of my old threads and see if there is a parallel to what you are going through. I think there is.

normalguy,

Glad to hear the trip was (for the most part) a nice one.

I acted the same way your wife is, but it ended with MC from Steve Harley. My H was smart enough to realize HE couldn't be the one to set me straight, 'cuz I have a history of being very stubborn and resistent to constructive critisism. Does this sound like your wife? Just curious. Anyway, Steve had to be the one to tell me how I was not making it safe for my H to express his feelings. If this would have come from my H's mouth, I would have gotten pissed off and ended the conversation right then. This is what your wife is doing by the way, not making it safe for you to be open and honest. It's not right, but YOU have to be the one to find a way to change that. MC, IC or a combination of the two, IMO, are the best ways to get this done.

I also understand and can relate to your wife's not wanting to be "kept." Pre-A, I felt my H was my superior, that he had all the decision-making power, and that I was more of his child than his spouse. I resented being "kept" pre-A, and therefore doubly resented it post-A. A good IC or MC will be able to make her see it isn't that you want to be her keeper, you just need to trust her, and this needs to be done by any means necessary. There's the giver, and the taker. Your wife hasn't learned to be the giver yet, but she will with proper guidance and counselling.

All my best,

KJ

Thanks for the replies! HL, I know my situation is similar; thats why I'm pushing to keep going to counselling. I don't want to let this stuff go; I'm trying to learn from your experience. It was very very tempting after we got back from the vacation to just skip the counselling and avoid the problem. I think she really wanted to do that too.

KJ, you give me that view of what is probably going on in her head. I can try and try to figure it out but then you post something and it all makes complete sense. Were you referring to IC for her or me? or both? We are in MC with marriage builders and after every session I do notice improvements from her. The effect seems to fade after a while though so I'm hoping that now we can string together some weeks of consistent counselling and get solidly on the path to recovery. (crossing fingers)

Very good Normal (wanted to call you grasshopper.LOL)

I read KJ's reply too and it makes sense to me too. Where the heck were you when I needed you KJ. LOL.

Question is how do you find a good MC to point it out that she is not creating a safe environment for me.

I am looking again because I think it might help this time but I am very skeptical of many MC's.

Funny thing I was looking at the state board of couselors and they had Divorce counselors and Marriage conselors listed separetly.

Almost 60-70% were in both catagories. Decided I didn't want to got to them. LOL. Don't really know which one they specialize in.

Good luck normal.

HL, I couldn't figure out how to find a counsellor so I just went with the MB phone counselling. I'm forgetting finances right now too... Divorce would be way worse so...

Ok, I sent an email to her earlier today. Now I'm wondering if this is an example of me being a doormat for her:

>>>>>>

I am sitting here thinking about our conversation last night and how it turned out so negatively when that was not my intention. I thought about talking to you about it but I think that would just put us back in the same situation so maybe I’ll try an email.



I was trying to offer an “olive branch” last night. Peace not more pain. I did not intend for you to feel like I was “throwing this in your face”. I love you more than anything xxx and I kick myself every day for not showing it more and not treating you the way you deserved to be treated in the past. I know my part in this and I will try to never argue with you about it; I simply ask you what I can do to help make it better now. Your feelings about the past are valid; I didn’t spend enough time with you, I did not put enough effort into our marriage, I exerted my opinion over what we did way too much, I did not hear you when you called out to me. I cannot believe that I didn’t see the problems right in front of me. I’m so sorry. This has been a truly life-changing event for me and I will never go back to that mindset again. I have learned and continue to learn. I am listening now. Some of what you said yesterday showed me that I still have a lot of work to do. I do not want to “keep” you. I do not want to “trap” you. If there is anything I can change right now to reduce your feeling that way please let me know. Even though these are just words, I hope my actions prove this to you. Please come to me with *anything* that makes you feel otherwise. ANYTHING!



We have an appointment tomorrow and I will bring this up to the counselor so we can talk about this. This is NOT about punishing you. I don’t want some kind of “ammunition” to use against you. I don’t want to make you feel bad. This is about finding a way to repair the damage we both did. I believe we will have a stronger and more fulfilling marriage when we come out of this. In fact, in many ways, I believe right now we have a better marriage than 2-3 years ago. I certainly feel much much closer to you and am starting to know whole new sides of you that I didn’t know were there. I truly look forward to our future together.



We don’t have to have a conversation about this tonight and you don’t have to reply to this unless you want to. I just wanted to tell you this without causing more problems.



I love you baby,

"Me"


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


So experts, was I being a doormat, too clingy, needy? Are there DJs? The "olive branch" was me showing her how I snooped her computer so she didn't have to feel spied on. I certainly didn't mention any of my issues here but I do plan to tell the counsellor. KJ, what would you think about this back "then"?

normalguy,

Well, I have to be honest here. My H and I never received more than 2 sessions of IC. We found MB after that, and it became clear to us that this was the mindset we wanted to follow. (Geeze, my H just got out of the shower and I can smell his cologne, yummy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

Where was I, oh ya, counselling. Anyway, we started receiving weekly counselling from SH, for about 8 weeeks, now we are at every 3-4 weeks. He has changed our lives and saved our M. I am certain he is the best in the business. I get SO frustrated when I hear people say they can't afford him. I say, who-hockey (is that a word? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). Ask yourself what your M is worth to you. Go ahead and figure out how much a D is going to cost you. Look in the faces of your spouse and children and ask yourself if they are worth $185 an hour (which usually goes 1.5 hrs. or more!). You get my point.

The effects do fade at first, but soon they will stay ingrained in your wife. I'm telling you, he is amazing with the BS, but even more so with the WS, IMO. Keep talking to the Harley's, you'll get there.

Don't cross your fingers guy, cross your heart and hope to die if you stop fighting for your M!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

KJ

hurtingless,

I only have one opinion about MC.... the Harley's.

I'm sure there are other MC's who are good, but damn if we could find one!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

See my post to normalguy today too.

All my best,

KJ

KJ thank you. I am going to check with FWW to see if she would agree to that. POJA.

Normal,

BTW you should read Dorry's thread about what a WW should do. It is pretty interesting and if you are using Harley then you might even let the FWW see it.