Hello.

I am new here, but have been browsing the website for a few weeks. I am so confused and desperately need help and advice. I'm trying to edit this and keep it short, but there's a lot of detail that makes a difference.

I have been married 5 years to a man who I thought was made of integrity and honor. In late March, he confessed to having had an affair for the previous 3 months. I left the house that day and moved in with a coworker and her husband and child. Other than that coworker, I didn't tell anyone what was going on, and no one even knew I was out of the house. He agreed not to see the OW, we agreed to work on the marriage, and I moved back into the house three days later.

We have two children who are his, biologically, but who have been in our full custody since the youngest was an infant. The biological mother had left my H for another man before the youngest was born, and then just gave full custody of both children to my H and has nothing to do with them anymore. I consider them my children, but have no legal right to them as the biological mother would never allow me to adopt.

We were going to MC and I read about a thousand books, and this website. I was doing everything I possibly could to build up his love bank, avoid any LB's, not annoy, etc... It was so hard, and I felt like I was the only one who was working on things. But I was willing to do it and put my whole heart into it.

Two weeks later, I found them together again. I confronted him (but not her, she got away). This time, we decided that it was completely over. I moved back in with my friend, he told his entire family, and I told mine, and we told the kids that we weren't going to be married anymore.

We were trying to be amicable and split up property and decide how to handle the kids. He was being very good about letting me see them all the time, even though I don'thave a legal right to. I would come over to see them, then he and I would end up talking.

We finally got a lot out on the table, and he said that the first time, I moved back into the house too quickly, and he hadn't realized "what he would be losing", that he had felt smothered, and that's why he went back to her. So I guess that was a huge LB that I didn't realize I was doing.

We are now trying again to work on the marriage. We have been going to counseling again and talking much more openly than we ever have before. I spend several nights a week at the house because he works overnight shifts and that is my time with the kids. I have also recently spent several nights at the house with him, although I'm "technically" still living with my coworker.

Sorry for all the background, here are my urgent questions.

I've been trying again to fill his love bank and meet all his emotional needs and not do any LB's. I am having a VERY difficult time distingushing between doing that and not being too "smothering" or needy or available or whatever it was that made him go back to her last time. How do I know the difference?

The counselor said I should move back into the house, but I am worried that that will cause a repeat of last time. Is it too soon? Do I stay away to make sure he keeps realizing what he'd be missing? Or is that playing games? Would it be smothering to come back? DH says "you're there all the time anyway, you might as well." That's not a very comforting comment. I will admit that part of the reason I want to move home is to keep an eye on him and know that he's not seeing her again. Mostly, though, I just want to be back with my family. So do I move back in?

H made a not-so-joking comment the other day about being "trapped". Does this mean I'm smothering again? That he needs more time to decide what he wants?

He also said that he wants our marriage back, but often thinks it would be easier to just get the ****** out. How am I supposed to react to that? That hurts SO incredibly much to hear, but at the same time I want him to be able to be hjonest and tell me what he's really thinking. We went so long without being very open with each other about our feelings.

I feel like I'm back to being the only one working on things, and that's what went wrong the last time.

So what am I supposed to do?? How do I try to meet his needs without being too available and smothering? I am SO incredibly scared right now. Someone please, please help!

The best thing you can do for your marriage is to move back in. That will enable you to keep an eye on him and ensure he is still not seeing the OW. You can't work on your marriage if you AREN'T THERE. And by moving out, you are making it easier for him to carry on his affair.

Secondly, you have to bust up this affair. Who is this OW? Is she married? Have you EXPOSED the affair? Has ALL CONTACT ENDED?

I agree with ML, you have to get the affair stopped before something can happen. And you need to move in. If that istoo smothering, honestly that is his problem, as living with your spouse is NOT a love buster. He has to know that you're tough, too. And you're not gonna give him the chance to see her by moving out to give him space.

And it seems like you have plan A down, but I want to remind you to have some boundaries in all this yourself.

I know you are scared. This is scary stuff, but try not to fear doing something wrong that will make this not work. He had the affair. You are doing an honorable and loving thing by trying to save your marriage. You have done NOTHING wrong.

I belive that the affair is busted up this time. He told me that he spoke to her (in public) and told her that it was absolutely over.

The affair has been exposed, she knows I know (I caught them together, although she snunck off before I could actually confront her or see her), he has given me the details of what happened when, I found out for myself before the second time who she is and where she lives, etc. Also, he told his family and certain key coworkers what had happened. So if that's what exposed means, then I'd say it's exposed. I might be missing a deeper MB translation of that, though, so I'll go look it up. She is not married, but does have a child.

She indirectly works with him, and there is no way of getting around that. He does not have any other career options here, and neither does she. There are two key co-workers of his who know the situation and are helping him to avoid any contact with her. He's also agreed to be totaly honest about any contact he does have with her (which is extremely rare, but sometimes necessary), to both of them and to me.

So I really do think it's over, I'm just worried about it being over "for now", like last time, and that I might drive him back to her again if I am too available or make things too easy on him or am being too smothering by trying so hard to meet his needs and fill his love bank... does that make sense?

Thank you for your advice, I think I will move back in. Is it jaded to do it in part to keep an eye on him and know his where-abouts?

Thank you for your post ...

I'm trying to get Plan A down, but I don't think I understand the part about having some boundaries for myself. Maybe that's the chunk I'm missing? Can you please give me some specific pointers, or maybe I just need a link to a page that talks about that some more?

Thank you again!

I couldn't handle this . Any contact I think is dangerous. There is always another option for a job.


That is not the only reason youre moving in. youalso want to be with your family. And you have every right to make sure he is not with another woman.

How are you holding up?

Plan A. Don't be a door mat. Don't commit LBs and call him on HIS LBs. Make the house and the marriage a SAFE place.

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This will be a HUGE impediment that will likely lead to an on again, off again affair. Recovery can't take place unless absolute no contact takes place.

that would be like sending an alcoholic into the bar every day and expecting him to stay sober. He sits there and stares at the beer all day and thinks of nothing but the beer. He can't get it off his mind. The inevitable weak moment hits him and he is drinking again.

Dr. Harley is ADAMANT about no contact even it means a move to another state.


jaded? You mean SMART? You HAVE to keep an eye on him. He is untrustworthy. You will have to watch him like a hawk until he rebuilds the trust he destroyed.

I would ask him to do the following:

1. Write a no contact letter to the OW [sample below]

2. Open up his life completely to you so you can check up on him at any time. ie: cell phone passwords, voicemail, etc. You should know where he is at ALL TIMES

3. He should agree to the Four Rules of Protection in order to RECOVER your marriage

Your marriage has a huge problem and it needs a program of recovery. Please read the links and articles posted below and get yourself a copy of Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley. You can order it cheap off this website bookstore.

Plan A and Plan B: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

four Rules of Protection After and Affair: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Sample No Contact letter:

Dr. Harley?s (From SAA)

(OP), I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that (BS) did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay (BS) for the pain I have caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she?s been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely,
(WS)

I mentioned this to him, but he said there wasn't much he could do about it. She works for a different company, but the two companies are related. He could move to any other company in his line of work, but would still have to interact with her. She's not going anywhere, although I wish she would. She does not have any skills to get any other job in this area that would pay as well. I hate that she is "waiting in the wings" and available, and have told him that. His solution was to put the two "accountability" co-workers on alert to make sure that there was no contact, and to tell me and them both every word when there was. Do you have any other suggestions about how I should talk to him about that? (as I read my own comments, it sure sounds like a lot of excuses).



Good days and bad days .... sometimes things go great for us and we do so well together and I have SO much hope, and then sometimes out of the blue, I get this big boulder in the pit of my stomach and am so scared. That's when I have to go hide and bawl. I don't know how I'm going to keep my job, I'm constantly distracted and obsessed by all of this. It really sucks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thank you again for your posts, I really, really appreciate all the advice I can get. I'm so tired of my family telling me to kick him to the curb and hire an attorney and take him for everything .... that's just not at all helpful!

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html



from the How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS..one of my favorite pieces of reading material... [thanks Mimi!]


p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

You only have the word of an untrustworthy liar. Would you believe the "word" of a crack addict and allow them back in the crack house if they promised to try and avoid crack and tell you whenever they saw it?

Wow, you're right. Thank you SO much for the article snips and the two links, Ihave printed everything out to take home and read.

I like the part in that article about him not being in a place to bargain, but it's hard for me to feel like that's the case sometimes.

I so desperately want my marriage back, and he holds some pretty big trump cards with the kids, so I feel like he has all the bargaining power. It's so scary!!

Something of curious interest..is the assumption of the WS that NC can be a negotiable thing. The assumption..that there is no loss involved outside of your direct relationship. The truth is that in order to really recover..you will both likely have your entire concept of loss redefined..loss is your new best friend and constant companion.

Still worse..when the unwitting BS contributes to this stalled thinking that allows the affair to remain in the wings.

Replace the word "can't" with "won't" and see if it looks any different to you in regard to your committment.

It will hold up a mirror for you both ..an example?

You say that he "can't" leave his job.

Is he indentured? No free will?

Or..

Is it that he "can't" leave his job, and expect to work in the same field, in the same area, at the same rate of pay?

Mcdonalds is nearly always hiring.

So, more correctly..he "won't" do *whatever* it takes to create an environment of permanent NC...how do your recovery prospects look to you now that the sunshine has been applied to the current wishy washy approach?

You will both have to be tougher than this if you want to recover something so broken.

With each other, and with yourselves.

noodle is right:

"I mentioned this to him, but he said there wasn't much he would do about it. "

Wow, that was tough to read, but very true. Thank you for shining some light there.

I printed off and read tons of articles and these posts last night, including the links that were posted for me here. I'm definitely bought in to the NC rule.

My question is how to get H to buy into it, too? I'm having a hard time figuring out how to "negotiate" that without "making demands". Can anyone give me some specific pointers about how to approach this with H? He is very resistant to this part, because his career is incredibly important to him. Do I suggest moving to another state?

(There's a really hateful part of me that would like to get all of the OTHER guys wives together and drive that little witch out of town, but I know that's not really a viable option. Feels nice to think about sometimes, though.)


As an update, I did come home last night, and H seemed pretty happy and relieved about it. Haven't done all of the actual moving back in, because there wasn't time, will do that this weekend. But am back in the house, so thanks for that advice. The girl that I'm living with thinks I'm crazy and that I shouldn't go back so soon. My family and H's family all say the same thing. Everyone says "make him work to win you back, don't just go back and make it easy for him" ... so it's nice to have some more realistic input from here. Thanks!

Show him the printouts on NC...what it is and why it is important. Is his career more important to him that recovering his marriage? Ami, You have gotten some very good advice here from some of the real pros. These things are not easy. Getting to the point where we can begin to call ourselves recovering has been the most painful, difficult thing that either FWS or I have ever experienced.

You know that you will never really be sure that there is NC if your H continues to work where he will run into OW. Also, I may get a 2X4 here for saying this, but I see nothing wrong with "warning" the wives of your husbands coworkers about the predatory OW who has shown a willingness to sleep with married men.

You do need to move home again. If you need to in the future, you can always move out when in Plan B if it comes to that.

Good Luck

Who

Thank you so much, there really has been great advice from this board, I truly appreciate it. I will show my H the articles tonight and see what he says. That makes me really nervous. Mostly because I don't know if he truly is willing to do whatever it takes to make this work, given his comments before about often thinking it would be easier to just get out.

As for informing H's co-workers wives about this woman ... What I really meant was that I wanted to get with the other wives whose husbands she's slept with (apparently, this is a general pattern with her). H is not the first she's done this with, and there is another woman in the same position as this OW who also does the same thing. Shortly after our problem came to a head, H stopped one of his coworkers from "making the same mistake" with that second woman. But I am SO tempted to warn that co-workers wife that there is a potential problem there that she should watch out for. I'm not sure how I do that without causing a lot of problems for both my H and the co-worker, though. And I'm also not sure she'd believe me -- I would not have believed anyone if they had told me there was something going on. I had SO much faith and trust in my H.

What is the general consensus about warning other men's wives about a predatory OW? Would it make sense to get the other betrayed wives to all file a formal complaint against these women to the company they work for? Or is that just my spite and hatefulness of her?

Thanks again, it helps SO much to come here. I'm so glad this board exists!

Want to know how to make your perspective on NC crystal clear?

Yes, the stats are important..but here's the clincher.

"H, you know that NC is non-negotiable for me. This is a boundary issue. Without permanent life long NC [which means NO Contact of any sort EVER] there IS NO RECOVERY. I realize that your career is important to you, however..these issues are the result of your own choices..I will not settle or compromise. Either I am more important to you than your career, or I am not. Either you are willing to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to recover or you are not."

I answered on your other thread re predatory women..I'm a clear "no" vote.

If you look into the psyche and traits of the female predator..drawing attention to her conquests..only serves to stroke her ego. Bringing up all the wives she has been able to help WSs cast aside for just a taste of what she has to offer will not shame her, quite the contrary it emboldens them.

If you truly believe that the management is not aware of her behavior..I suggest you are being naive. Perhaps they are even particpants.

With a predator there are two options..kill it or get the h*ll away from it. The laws do not allow the first option..best to apply the second.

Oh, wow ... I don't know if I have the guts to say that. I am afraid that the answer would be that he's NOT willing.

Ugh. I can't believe I just wrote that. That's not a very good sign that there's much hope for us, is it? Maybe I'm crazy for even trying to hang on to this marriage. His career realyis his life, he was MADE to do this job. It's been the one steady thing he's had throughout his whole life, after his first wife left, being a single dad, and he's really thrived in it since we've been together. I really think he would probably choose it over me. Ouch. That's an incredibly painful realization. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I knew that fear was the motivating factor in the lack of standards and boundaries.

Think about this.

Is it LESS true if you hide from it?

Either he is willing or he is not..if he is not then there is nothing to be gained..what you stand to lose has been lost already..there can be no recovery.

Let him make his own choice..at least then you will have your answer to the question in fact..not in fear driven supposition.