Yeah, when you put it that way, fear is probably exactly the right word.

Can you please help me with the difference between setting standards and boundaries (and pushing the NC issue) and not making demands? I don't mean to argue, I think I'm still just trying to cling to hope that really isn't there, and too afraid to face the truth. I just can't wrap my head around how to do Plan A and also insist on the NC. Does the NC have to happen before Plan A can ever even begin to have any effect? And if he does not agree to NC, then what do I do? Still try Plan A or is it all over and I go to Plan B?

This is so scary and hurts so much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I can give you my perspective on boundaries..

My FAVORITE subject [beams]

A boundary is about YOU. What you will/won't accept or do in your life.

A boundary is about your control over your life.

Sometimes your boundaries will require something from people who WANT and CHOOSE to be a part of your life.

This is not a demand..they are free to say "no"..however..you are also free to decide that their choices are not acceptable to you.

For example..you can not force your H to make a decision that is favorable to your marriage..but you are free to say "no deal" if the decision is unacceptable to you.

Lack of NC would be one such issue for me personally. You will have to identify your own boundaries and learn to enforce them.

Oh, and your other questions...heh [one track mind tonight]

See..plan A is for ending the A..which supposedly has already occurred. In plan A you would not make recovery style boundaries for the marriage...pointless in the face of an active A.

According to your earlier post..the A is past tense..he has decided he wants to work out the M..the next phase would be recovery.

NC is a prerequisite for BEGINNING recovery. Recovery is the place that standards and boundaries are negotiated.

If there is no NC or an unwillingness to do what it takes to enforce NC..then you have to re-evaluate where you are and what truths you are operating from.

At that point [no NC commitment for any reason] I would begin plan A [which is very short term in nature..] then go to a DARK plan B.

You will want to heavily research plans a/b so that you can execute them mercilessly [did I use that description..bad noodle]

After plan B..you either reconcile under healthy and appropriate terms..or you divorce.

You can't MAKE something be what you wish it was..but you CAN go through the whole process and leave no stone unturned.

It seems to me that your h has the mindset of a cake eater.

He either wants two relationships to satisfy his needs or one central r with the option of a little adventure on the side from time to time.What appears to him to be a comfortable solution to his problems has of course a number of fatal flaws which he either doesnt see or doesnt want to see.

One of the most important lessons we learn as we get older is the ability to forgo short term pleasure for long term gain.He is at the stage where he can continue to behave like a teenager or grow up and become an adult

A long term m requires a great deal of sacrifice along the way the eventual rewards of this are inestimable. He has a great deal to gain from the self discipline of maintaining a m and a lot to lose from having secret affairs with readily available, desperate partners whose behaviour I would think would eventually become as controlling and smothering as he thinks yours is.

BTW I wouldnt take such remarks personally that is the nature of a m we have to create a balance of power which is very hard to achieve in the real world .

He is at a point where he has to make a decision to commit or leave. It is as simple as that. He cant have his cake and eat it and I think he knows that.

I also think he recognises the OW for what she is She must have a reputation in the company. It is amazing what others notice.She will find another victim easily and it might be a better option if she can somehow be peruaded to transfer her operations elsewhere.

Like my OW in every phase of her life she painted herself into a corner and eventually had to do what alcoholics call a geographical and relocate.

Is there any way the company can be persuaded that she is a total liability ?

I agree with myopia..especially with regard to your Hs feelings of being "trapped" and his continued cake eating.

It is extremely unlikely that this has anything to do with you.

More likely is the possibility that he is feeling trapped by the results of his own choices in life up to this point.

For example. I am trapped in the sense that I have chosen to have children and so pursuing life as though I did not..isn't an option.

I am trapped in choosing to be a married woman..now I lose the option of being single.

I would be equally trapped if all of those examples were reversed..because one is not superior to the other..it is oinly that they can not exist in the same space.

I would be trapped into shallow and less intimate relationships..probably serially, if I were single..I don't even want to imagine going through that stage of life forever..never moving past it.

Ditto children..yes they absolutely require things from me. In fact children can be an outright pain in the butt on a daily basis..yet they bring joy and focus to my life.

Cake eating..and the desire to cake eat..is to WANT to remain on the fence and enjoy the best of BOTH worlds.

I'll be a husband when I FEEL like it..and a free agent when it's inconvenient.

It's a selfish..wicked..awfull paradigm..so hurtfull to the spouse and children..but it is also just such a common aspect of WSness that I would hold off judging the man as though this was the whole story.

He is currenly having a sickness of selfishness..whether it is a permanent condition [or a mortal wound to the marriage] remains to be seen.

Many go there..but most come back from it also.

I also agree with myopia about OWs reputation in the company. If she is the village bicycle, it is unlikely that it's a secret.

I have been trying to digest some of the most recent posts, I have to admit that they weren't easy to hear. My H can be a great guy and make everything feel so good ... I really thought we were doing alright and had a lot of hope that we were on our way out of this ... but you are all right, I can't compromise on the NC agreement. I hate the thought of her still being available and "waiting in the wings". I can't live with that.

He continues to say there is nothing more he can do, although we haven't had time to have a huge discussion about it and he hasn't had the chance to read the articles from this site yet about NC.

So where does that put me now? What is my next step? Do I act like the affair is still happening, since there is still contact, even though I believe that he's broken it off with her? And go to Plan A until he agrees to NC? Someone said that was for a very short time before going to Plan B -- how short? Weeks, months? I think I saw 6 months max in one of the articles, but I need to go back and read them again. Do I bring this up at our next MC appointment, or is that a LB?

I'm so confused.
Thank you for your help, I sure wish this was easier or hurt less.

AmiWalsh, your next step is tell him truthfully that there is no hope unless ALL contact ends. You need to be brutally honest about your expectations. You and I both know there IS something more he can do. But he is not going to do it if he doesn't have to, though.

Start there. If that does not impel him to leave the company, then you can expose him at work and see if that does the job. [don't tell him you may do this]

But you have to start by telling him this is a firm boundary you are not going to forgo. Because I assure you this is all hopeless if you do because the affair will be endless.

Village Bicycle ... HA!! I had never heard that phrase before, but it struck me as absolutely hilarious!!!!


It's not a secret to any of the guys, but the wives sure aren't in on the loop.

I think I've decided to warn the wife of the other guy, who I know one of the women is after. I have hard evidence to give to her, and he has not let things get too far yet, although it looks like he's starting to lose the battle. I think his wife has a right to know and defend herself -- and help him defend himself. I may ask H to go with me and talk to them both together, since this other guy has confided in H -- would that be a good thing?

As for the other wives, I still don't know. I now have some connections who could probably tell me who these women are going after when they are, so maybe I warn individual wives when I find out something is happening? I'm not sure a general warning would do much good and might just appear to be malicious gossip.

I wouldn't do that. It will only tip off your H, who will tip off her H, who will SPIN the story to his W before you get to her. Just call the woman up and tell her what you know.

This is another reason why you should expose this affair at Human Resources. If someone would report this woman at work, it might put a knot in her tail REPORT HER.

Re village bicycle..

Glad you liked it..I did too. You can thank my H for that one..not sure where he picked it up but the imagery [everyone has had a ride!] had me literally snorting soda out of my nose and then choking on it..while driving..

There's not much the co-worker could do to spin the story, there's too much evidence. The good thing is that he has been working very hard at avoiding this other woman as much as possible -- she really is getting agressive about pursuing him, though.

I think you're right, I need to report both of these women to their command. The problem is that the men are at a much greater risk of losing their careers over this than the women are. And once this is on their records, the men can't get other jobs in this their line of work. Especially not in this state. Other than an A of my own (which I would never do), costing him his career would be the most giant LB that I could ever commit against my H.

Man, I hate that I'm waffling so badly about this, I know what I need to do, just don't have the guts to do it. I can read my own posts and realize that I'm sitting here making excuses for him. I wish I could chase her off somehow without costing him his job. I suppose an anonymous tip-off to her command wouldn't do any good, and I probably can't get away with harassing her until she has to leave (although I sure would like to, sometimes).

Ugh. This sucks, sucks, sucks.

I know I've gotten such great advice, and in my head I know what's right. It's just so hard to make myself do it.

There was a post on here about FEAR, and that's exactly where I am. Scared to death to lose my marriage, be alone, pressure him too much ... why isn't HE the one who has to worry about all of this? Why isn't HE the one fighting for this and figuring out how to get the ****** rid of her and expose her for the tramp that she is???? Why do I have to be the desperate one and he gets to take it easy?????

I know there aren't really answers to any of those. I know what I need to do, it just really, really sucks. And I'm really really scared and sad and ticked off at him for bringing this into our family. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

About the fear.

Fear is about lack of control. If you are able to somehow acknowledge that this lack of control is *already* a reality then you may have an easier time accepting it.

Like most if not all new BSs..you probably have this gut instinct to not rock the boat. That maybe if you are just quiet enough the monster will go eat someone else. [winks]

The truth is..that everything that you stand to lose..in essence you have already lost.

If your H is truly unwilling [and you don't know this yet..fogged out responses don't count] to ever commit to the sort of marriage that you would accept as healthy and favorable to being lifelong..then that is already true.

It isn't going to happen if you do this or don't do that..it is about who he is, what he is willing to do..and you just don't have any control over that..you never did. If you thought that you did, it was an illusion.

Think of it like a miscarriage. No one would say it's happy news..something to grieve over for sure..yet would you prefer to NOT miscarry, and remain "pregnant" with an already dead child? I certainly wouldn't.

I would also suggest that before you do anything..you actually put in the work of educating and arming yourself.

Going to war [and this is what you are undertaking] requires planning and strategy and the education to build the foundation for both...failure to do either will result in failure and deaths.

If you want to use MB strategy..become intimately familiar with them. Buy the books..read them front to back and back to front. Don't think you know what the plan is..KNOW that you do.

Until you have done this..all of your efforts are pretty much in vain.

Yeah, I guess that's very true. Hard to realize, because sometimes it doesn't FEEL lost. We get along and have fun and are affectionate just like we were before. I just want those times to last forever. But not at the expense of sweeping everything under the carpet and risking this all coming back again. Guess I need to start getting through my head that I can either have this war now and get it right, either way, or I will be facing it for the rest of my life. It's not very easy to get that into my head.....



Ironic choice of illustration. A stillbirth 2 years ago and then subsequent inability to get pregnant again afterwards spiraled into pretty deep depression for me, which contributed to a lot of the problems we were having in the M before the A. Not that the A is justified, but I do take quite a bit of responsibility for how rough things were in our house leading up to it. Getting treated separately for that right now.



Thanks. I spent about 8 hours last night (while H was at work) re-reading HNHN and SAA, plus several articles and posts that I've printed off from here. I guess I need to figure out a specific plan, which is what I've wanted to have for a long time. I just need to take those resources and map it out, specifically.

Is this something I do on my own, or do I try to get him to help or do I expect him not to be available and emotionally distant right now or??? DoI give him some of the books to read or mark specific pages...? We are going to MC weekly, but so far are just talking, there is no planof action laid out there, which has been frustrating to me. I guess it's only been a few weeks since d-day 2 ... so maybe I'm just being impatient and rushing things.

I just want my life back so badly... I want to rewind and fix things before we ever got to this point. I'm so, so sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

So, my H is working tonight, and the kids and I went out to dinner with his parents. We got some to go for him and took it to his office. On the way there, we had to go past her office, and I thought I saw her vehicle there. But he had told me she wasn't working tonight. He promised to tell me the nights that she is working.

So on the way back home, I went back past her office -- which was TOTALLY out of the way, the wrong way, WITH the kids in the car. And they knew it wasn't the right way. What are you looking at mom? Why are we here?

It wasn't her vehicle ... I was tempted to drive past her house just to see if she was there, but then the kids would have really known something was weird and probably would have said something to H about it. (kids do not know WHY when we told them we couldn't stay married anymore, they have no idea about the OW, and I don't think they should. They don't seem to notice that I've moved back into the house and am around a lot more now, it's funny how adaptable they are.)

I hate being so suspicious and paranoid. I hate having all this doubt. I hate not being able to trust the man that I fell in love with primarily BECAUSE I knew down to my very core that I could trust him so completely. I believed that he was MADE of integrity, and anyone else who knows him believed it, too. I hate that that is shattered now.

So here I sit, kids in bed, and I'm bawling my eyes out, trying to be objective and figure out my plan. I'm not doing a very good job of either. Maybe I should clean house instead ... try to meet that "domestic support" EN a little, let him come home to a nice, clean house in the morning. Maybe I will do it with a few nice, stiff drinks in me, first. (I don't normally drink much, but my sister got me started on Vanilla vodka in diet soda recently ... yummy. And very effective at numbing.)

Some days I feel so good about us, and then there are times like these where I am not sure if there is any hope. I'm so, so sad and scared. I have re-read the Fear post about a thousand times now. It's so right on with where I am.

It's only been a few weeks for me of dealing with this ... I don't know if I can last months and months. I'm a mess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

You will get stronger. None of us thought that we could get through this.

Cleaning the house sounds like a good plan. I did a lot of that after D-day.

Sorry you are having a rough nite.

To answer your Q..No, executing plans A/B is something that YOU do yourself. You extend your H a lot of grace on the premise that he isn't quite sane at the moment..acting from an addict POV and as such..he isn't going to be ABLE to go through this part of the road with you.

Personally, I wouldn't WANT my H to know about my game plan..just makes it easier to counter, especially if he is intelligent. When he is in withdrawl or tempted or whathaveyou..he can use your own tools against you. You have already identified that he is a tad manipulative..I say protect yourself. These are issues he can address in recovery. That's a good time for book learnin'.

Now..the hard part. [This is going to be REALLY tough to swallow..ready?..deep breath]

Part of the problem you are having wrapping your head around this is because you had a false belief that down to your very core you *knew* you could trust him so completely. He shattered that utterly didn't he? It was a core belief, it made you feel safe and protected and special and now you have come to the stark realization that it just isn't true [it never was..he was only ever human, humans can't ever BE that trustworthy].

He wasn't made of integrity..he embraced it at the time..then he unembraced it for whatever reason, he is capable of both. BOTH aspects of your H are TRUE. He has good attributes and tendancies, and bad ones.

[Incidentally, you should not ever take his word that he will tell you when OW works..maybe he will, maybe not..but he is not trustworthy on this issue at this time..so if you don't put any reliance on him to provide that info..you'll feel less anxiety about it..get it?]

My advice would be..to go with the idea that if there is no NC in place..the A is active. Even if this proves to be untrue at a later time..you have to make assumptions based on the information at hand..and what you KNOW is that there is still contact..[you also have a historical failure re NC to draw that conclusion further into the realm of likely]

So that puts you in Plan A.

Read all about plan A and if possible..make an appt with Dr H himself to work the kinks out of your plan.

Then the biggest obstacle to your effective Plan A is..you.


You will fail on several points many times over.
You won't want to, you'll get tired of it..you'll be sad..you'll want more from him than is reasonablke to expect..you'll be lied to and believe it..then be crushed and full of doubt about the whole enchilada..and feel like Plan A wasn't working..when in fact it is usually US that are failing etc, etc, etc.

So..keep these personal failures in mind when you are tempted to judge H for his. You'll find you fall victim to your emotions and impulses and temptations and if you keep those memories close to your heart..perhaps you won't be so quick to despair when H does the same.

I have a current fav white wine..usually I don't care for white..has a bit of a cat pee taste to me..but this one is different. Muscata d'asi it's called. Not too shabby.

It was a heck of a night, and then I let it carry over to this morning. Dropped my kids off at my IL's to go to church, then on my way to church (kids go to a dif. church), I drove about 25 miles out of my way to go past her house. No good reason, I knew exactly where H was, having just left him very asleep in bed after he got home from working night shift. She and her neighbors know my vehicle, it was a stupid thing to do and risky for getting caught. I don't know why I even did it, it's not like I could have learned anything I don't already know. I was looking to see if she was home (she wasn't). Don't know why on earth I felt the need to torture myself like that. Better get myself pulled together before H gets up so we can have a good afternoon at least.


That makes sense, thanks. I will def. get a good plan A in place. I've been trying to do it already, anyway, but it definitely could use some help to work out the kinks. Think this is something I can do with my own IC or our MC, or do you think calling Dr. H is best? Man, we've spent a lot on counseling recently.

Without trying to involve him too much in the overall plan, is it ok to ask him about his emotional needs and any LB's that I don't really recognize? Som I know about and have been good at avoiding, but I'm most worried about "annoying habbits". I don't always know what's annoying or not for him.


Yes, you're exactly right. A huge part of my belief system was shattered, totally. I really thought he was super-man, made of steel. Of course that can never be the case, but I can't tell you how bought into it I was. Naive, dumb, silly girl. I used to think I was so much smarter than this.

Yeah, I have "spies" now at this office who also tell me when she's working. That helps a little, but I didn't trust any of them last night.


THanks, this is good validation. This is the same conclusion I was coming to last night. I'd like to believe the A is over, but with no NC agreement, I just can never trust that it really is. Especially after the first time we went through this.


Uuuuuugggggghhhhhhhh .... sure wish there was a way to skip this part. A time-machine to fast-forward a couple of years .... I've been depressed and felt like a failure for the last two years, I just finally got shocked out of that, and now I'm voluntarily heading back into it. This is going to be a rough go for me.



Sounds yummy, I will have to try it!


THanks so much for your advice and support. I'm so confused and sad and frustrated. It's nice to have a place to vent those things without dumping them all on H or my friends, who all just tell me to castrate him or kick him to the curb. So I really appreciate the much more realistic and useful info I've gotten here.

Thanks.

Feeling a little bit better tonight, I was talking to H about what's going on at our church this afternoon, and telling him that our small group is taking a 4-week break.

His schedule is changing next week so that Sunday is just about the only day he has off, and that's when our small group meets. He has not been to church or small group since the A started, he always had excuses, although most of them were legitimate and work. Anyway, since Sunday will be his only day off anymore, I asked him if he wanted me to find a different group so it wouldn't interfere with his one day off, and he said no, he wanted to start going again.

So I'm happy about that. Amazing how just little tiny crumbs can mean so much these days.

We also planted our garden this afternoon, and the kids and I have had a really good night, despite one being grounded for grades. So I;m feeling a little better tonight.

Now if I can just quit being so distracted and start performing half way acceptably at work tomorrow ... it would be a huge help.

First of all - huge hugs {{{{{Ami}}}}} I have no words of advice to offer but just to let you know that the above quote is EXACTLY what my WH has said on numerous occasions - even to the MC.

That won't make you feel any better, i know, but just know that you aren't alone.

Hugs

zuj

He's supposed to not be contacting her, I know she didn't work with him last night, but he came home late this morning (by about half an hour, no big deal, it's typical andhe called from the office, so I know he didn't actually go see her).

He left his phone in his truck outside. I went and checked it when I was leaving for work. There was a call from him to her this morning, and a call back from her that lasted about 6 minutes.

Oh, please help!! He said he wanted to work on our marriage, he has been going to counseling, he said he'd let me know if he talked to her .... I HATE this!! I hate it, hate it hate it. I'm SOOO sad and angry and confused.

He came home and kissed me and told me he loves me.

Why, why, why, why, why is he doing this to us??????

You guys were so smart about insisting on the NC thing.

I am calling one of his former bosses today who is a good friend of ours and who knows what's going on and also is very high up in his company. I am going to ask him how to expose to the company and HR. I have got to get rid of this woman and bust up this relationship!!!!

I'm here trying to work, and can't stop bawling. I don't know how I'm going to keep my job through all of this.

HELP!!!