I'm starting to hate H's job. It used to be one of the major things that attracted me to him -- he's SO damn good at it, was BORN for it. He's incredibly professional and one of the shining stars in his agency. I am so proud of him and impressed by him.

BUT ... this job has also required a lot of sacrifices for our family. His schedule can be really rough sometimes, and he misses a lot of the kids' activites and things, or shows up for a little while on the job, then has to leave in the middle of it. I'm the kids' primary caretaker most of the time, because he's usually either working or sleeping or crabby from being short on sleep.

Now his schedule is changing so he will have almost NO time with me or the kids anymore. This was something I was dreading even before D-Day because of the total lack of time we'd have together. Now I'm dreading it even more.
Most days, he will leave for work before the kids or I get home from work/school (I work a regular 8-5), and then work all night, until well after we are all in bed. This is a 5-night-a-week schedule, and he will only have Sundays off on the weekends (after having worked Saturday night, so he'll sleep half the day on Sunday), so we can't even really take weekend family trips anymore, which we used to be pretty big on.

All that plus the fact that that's where OW came from. I'm really starting to resent his job.

The only good part about the new schedule is that it does not coincide so much with OW's anymore. They will only work at the same time for a couple of hours or so, and only 1 or two nights a week. At least that's something.

Plus, should worse come to worst, it gives me a little more leverage regarding the kids. With is work schedule, no judge would side with him on custody, and so he'd have to be incredibly good with me about time with the kids or risk losing them to bio-mom (which noone wants, but could very likely happen if we had to get the court involved).

Pretty jaded to think that way, huh? But I have to look out for myself. Sure wish there was no reason to ever even think about these things, but he gave me the reason.

Anyway, I can take pretty flexible lunch hours, so we can probably at least have lunch together most days, and I can stay up late to be up when he gets home on Friday and Saturday nights. We talked about meeting at the gym (at his office, open 24 hours) those nights after his shift to work out together. The kids would be asleep by then and are old enough that they're ok home alone for an hour or so evenif they did wake up. Other than that, though, I'm not sure how we're going to be able to get much quality time in.

Did I already say I'm really starting to resent his job??

Guess I just needed to vent. Thanks for reading.

Oh, and a little more of a vent ... our MC appointment got cancelled today because she was sick. They did not think they could get us rescheduled before next week. So now we will already be short on time together this week, and won't have even had this chance to really talk. Our MC is not very proactive, but at least we always end up really getting deep and talking a lot there. Not sure when we'll have a chance to do that now with the new schedule, and I hate to wait a whole week!!!


A good thing today, I joined a new club and really loved it. One of my big problems was not having a very good network of friends that were my own. I relied on H too much, and ended up being very clingy and needy. I'm making big strides in this area, at least, and feeling pretty proud of myself for it. It also didn't take away any real time from us, since it was during the kids bedtime stuff, which H likes to "run" on the few evenings when he's home, so I would have just been watching TV, anyway. He was very intereseted and curious about where I was and what I was doing, which struck me as being pretty amusing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One more thing about this new schedule ... H used to work all night, then sleep all day. I always knew exactly where to find him during the day. Now that he works kind of a swing shift, he gets off much earlier, and won't have to sleep as late in the day. So he'll be up, and off work, most of the day while I'm at work and the kids are in school. He has all day unaccounted for.

He's very good about calling and letting me know where he is, and he can always be reached on his cell ... but short of making him get signed notes from everywhere he goes, how do I start to take him at his word about where he'll be?

He's out running errands right now, and I'm sitting on my hands trying not to let myself go driving past her house to make sure he's not there.

This distrust thing sucks, sucks, sucks.

Hi Ami, a lady called Dr. Harley just now about a situation where her husband works with the OW. She explained that the affair is over and that the supervisor knows of the affair and is watching them to ensure the affair doesn't resume.

Dr. Harley told her she "absolutely did the right thing in informing the supervisor" at her H's work, but went onto say:

You can't begin your program of recovery until contact ends. It is useless to follow my plan or anyone elses plan until contact ends. The idea that someone is watching you and checking up on you just makes resuming the affair more exciting!

All the accountabilty measures are useless because recovery won't take place until he leaves the job.

Ami, I was listening to the radio show, too. Let me add a little to what Mel said.

He said that you have to think about this like a cancer in the marrriage. How do you get rid of that cancer? you have to operate and remove it. The surgery is that one of them has to leave the job.

He was adamant that as long as there is ANY contact at all that there can be no recovery. He said the best you can do is avoid love busters and try to draw him into a romantic relationship - basically plan A.

He did say that the she did the best thing she could do by telling his supervisor.

I was initially feeling like all the accountability stuff was an answer, but have more and more started to realize that it's just not enough. The one redeeming thing about his plan is that H is putting in a #ell of a lot of effort, and really trying to do everything he thinks he can -- which is more than he had been doing. So that's at least a little bit reassuring. But you're both right, it's not enough.

He's also still on board with the moving idea. At the very, very best, though, it could easily take three months for him to get on with any new agency by the time they do all the testing and background checks and everything. So I'm etiher stuck in this hellish limbo for a few months, or I get out now. He's trying, so I'm not ready to get out. But I also don't know how long I can take this.

I absolutely don't trust him. At all. I just now left my office and drove by her house to make sure he wasn't there. (He wasn't, she was). All the way there, I was sick to my stomach. I just KNEW I'd find him there. On the way back, I drove past a couple of the stores he said he'd be at, and he was at one of them. My stomach is still full of rocks and I'm still shaking and sweating. I don't know why I do this to myself.

If this is going to be a forever thing -- if I'm going to always be this suspicious and distrusting and be trapped in this cycle of always checking up on him and never believing him .... then I don't know if this marriage is worth saving. I don't want a marriage like that.

Do you ever get over that? Or will I always wonder if he's really where he says he is -- or even be ok with NOT KNOWING where he is???

Ami, you will get over that when he EARNS trust. But it will take a lot of time with a long demonstrated pattern of trustworthy behavior. The distrust you feel is what you signed on for when you decided to stay with him. It is a job hazard. You will ALWAYS feel like this every day as long as they work together though. Trust will never be restored this way.

Yeah, I've been thinking that this was basically where I'm at -- plan A until either we move, he quits, or I just can't stand it anymore. I know it's not totally in line with all of the advice, but I feel like he really is trying to take steps, and I'm just not ready to drop the ax on it all yet.

BUT, I HAVE told him that as long as he's still in contact with her at all, I could not feel safe and would not be able to start re-building trust in him. He said that was why all the accountability was in place, so that I could check on him whenever I wanted, and re-affirmed that he was bought in to the move.

So, I guess I'm kind of bracing in for Plan A for a while, if not a farily jaded Plan A. I've set a deadline (of my own, H does not know and I won't share it with him) of September 1. I picked this date for a few reasons ...

The kids will be just getting back in school then, so if he hasn't found a new job and we haven't moved by then, then I think he will use that as an excuse to stay here for another year. That's just not going to be acceptable.

Also, when the kids are back in school, given his current schedule, he will only see them at all 2 days a week, max, and then only for a few hours. That will give me much more power in the kid and custody department. I will never have legal custody, but I will have a LOT more leverage with him at that time, and he will either have to give me all the time I want with them, or risk losing them to the bio-mom.

I will have some more time to save up some of my own money. If I end up having to go to Plan B, or Plan D, I intend to keep the house. I will have enough of my own money by then to be able to buy him out of the equity in the house, and enough time with my new promotion to be able to refinance the house in y name, only and still be able to pay all of my own bills. We just bought this house, so there isn't too much equity in it, which is probably good.

It gives me some time to keep working on the things about myself that I've wanted to work on -- establishing more of a network, making some of my own friends, getting back into the things I used to love doing and getting some excitement and spark of my own back - separate from relying on him for it. I'm also working in IC on getting out of a pretty deep depression that I've been in for a long time. I'm doing much, much better (thanks largely to to AD's, I think), but really want to have my feet firmly under me before I jump off the next cliff.

I think I can hang in there this long, it's a little over three months. At the end of that time, if I stick to my plan (which so far I have been doing, and IC is keeping me moving on it) then I at least know that I will be a better, happier, stronger, more capable me -- like the person I used to be. And if I keep having to feel this level of distrust and anger and apprehension all the time, and he hasn't figured out how to protect me and help me feel safe and trust him again, then I know the level of love that I have for him will be all but gone (kind of part of the point of plan A, right?).

If I can just hang in there for the next three months (and if he can ... it's pretty possible for him to decide he can't keep putting up with all the questions and having to answer for his every move every minute for that long, too).

I guess then I will feel like I had done everything I could to make it work, and it won't be as hard to let go of him. Right now, I just can't make myself give up, because he IS at least trying, and making some pretty big steps, just not the ones he NEEDS to take.


So ... is this plan workable? Or am I crazy to even try?
Do I assume, just for my own protection, that the A is ongoing during this time, as long as there is contact? I plan to keep snooping until there is absolutely no contact whatsoever, and probably for a long time after that.

What do you think?

Thanks.
-Ami.

Yes,

In plan A..Just assume that the A is ongoing.

Just take a load off and ASSUME that it is.

I like that you are setting yourself up..getting plans in order IN CASE you need to utilize plan B or are faced with divorce. Being prepared..being ready..being in a place of strength..will help you be ABLE to sustain those three months of plan A.

Keep it up..be very detailed. Find out about your options. Make real plans.

You should also be beginning to prepare your plan B letter [Feel free to post it Many have found this helpfull]

I know it may sound premature..but better ready than not..and if you never ever need to use it..imagine how it will feel to take it outside under the light of the moon and burn it! Working actively on Plan B really helps keep perspective in plan A. Helps keep you detached from the day to day drama enough to remember during the bad times..that you ARE working toward something specific..that you aren't helpless..and that there is a time limit. The cavalry will arrive on "..." date.

Then..on your off time [winks] let's hear some more about your Plan A plan.

You have committed to three months. How will you spend them? What are the best areas to aim for..and how do you plan to do this?

Personally...I would AVOID the whole daily interrogation if I were you. Very offputting..especially since we are already assuming that the A is present tense to some or any degree.

IMO..better to hold off on this issue until you have both reached a point of being ready to recover..on YOUR terms, not his.

Acknowledge that his "accountability" plan and anything of the sort is just not adequate.

See..it wasn't you who breached trust in the marriage..so why should it be you feverishly searching the heavens for a sign of it's return [then trying to interpret that sign..and double guessing yourself..and driving past OWs house at all hours..and feeling sick about it].

It is his job..to bring that info to YOU. Let him do the leg work. It is his job..not to merely tolerate your questions..but to drop the answers..and verification for them..at your feet.

This will go MILES in not only establishing trust..but avoiding resentment.

The recovery board is FULL of people who settled for too little and lived to regret it. They reconciled too soon. Don't be one of them.

Good to hear from you, I hope you are well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, noodle.


I've actualy been thinking about this alot and reading through all the sample Plan B letters and playing with some wording. I've also started getting my financial situation very, very nailed down so that I know I will be able to take care of myself and be comfortable if I have to go to Plan B. I've done the legal research on the custody issues (which is not looking promising, but at least I'm very well informed) and have been working out a parenting schedule that I might be able to get him to agree to that would maximize my time with the kids and also make life really uncomfortable for him. Sometimes it feels kind of dishonest and jaded to have this sort of back-door option in the works while I'm also saying that I'm committed to making our marriage work. But this planning is helping (when I can keep my focus) to keep me sane. I feel like I finally have just a little bit of control, I have some options, and it's up to me. There are proactive actions that I can take to protect myself and make my life happier and better -- without worrying about whether or not H agrees or likes it or not.


I've been reading and reading and reading about Plan A and Plan B -- all of Dr. Harley's books, and all the threads and articles I could find on here. I really liked ark's Plan A thread, it has given me some new perspective, some stuff that I kind of already knew, but just hadn't internalized yet, and lots of things I didn't realize I was doing wrong. Like talking a lot about the relationship, asking him about his feelings, telling him all the time how much I love him (and then I'm sliced to the core the times he doesn't say it back, although I at least have been successful in keeping that part to myself), writing long "this is how I feel and how much I love you" letters. Those are things that I've stopped (although we do still talk in detail when we go to MC).

I have worked hard on not being depressed or weepy or clingy around him. AD's are helping with that, and I've also been able to get away from him when I do need a good scream or cry. And except for the d-days, there has been no yelling or fighting -- that's never been my style anyway.

We've addressed a lot of the reasons for the affair in MC. I'm focusing on meeting the EN's that I wasn't, and working hard on my part of the problems. This gets frustrating to me because he doesn't seem very concerned about meeting MY EN's or addressing any of the issues he contributed to the problems in our M (pre-A ... he is at least very good about taking full responsibility for the A). But I also know that's part of the whole Plan A deal. I can hang in there for a while with this, when I start feeling really empty, that's when it's nice to have the deadline to look forward to.

I have more just us time with the kids now, and have worked out a really good schedule for getting things done, but also having a lot of fun with them. That had been lacking more than I'd like to admit over the last year or so. My relationships with the kids have improved dramatically in the last 6 weeks or so. The kids and I have always had very good relationships, but now with the fun being back and a lot of my depression being under control, we're much better than we ever were before. Quite a feat with pre- and early- teens!

I'm also working on my own self -- just for me. When H and I originally got together, I was living in a big city across the state. I had a great job, a big, solid network of friends, tons of activities and hobbies and interests of my own, was working on my Master's degree -- I was very happy and independant and capable and interesting. I never re-established that when I moved here. It is a much smaller town, with fewer cultural and educational opportunities, much lower payscale and very tight job market, so I ended up settling for a job that is not very exciting to me and after 7 years pays about half of what I was previously making. I let H be our "social director" -- he made all of "our" friends, planned all of "our" activities, and I burried myself in just taking care of the family. I have ONE friend here, and we rarely see each other (except for when I was living with her post d-days). I have no activities of my own and would get upset when H wanted to go do something without me because I didn't have anything of my own to do. I let all of my old relationships fizzle, including my relationship with God, because I was so obsessed with and wrapped up in just my H and kids. I gave up all the things about me that were interesting and exciting -- I was even bored of myself.

SO ... I'm working on fixing that. I have joined several special interest clubs through my church, and have been regular about going to church and a small group. I'm making new friends and have signed up for several fun classes that I'm excited about. I also picked up raquetball again, and joined a challenge league. I found a way to finish the Master's degree that I want (online). I talked to my boss and have a better career plan worked out, to get into a more interesting position within the year. Every day I'm starting to feel a little more like the old me, that I was proud of and liked -- and who H was originally attracted to. This will all be good for me whether or not H and I can work things out.

I could probably go on, but that's kind of the high-level of my Plan A. I keep revising and improving it, though.


I don't interrogate, he calls me all the time about where he is and where he's going to be, etc. I do check his phone records, but I can do that without him knowing when I'm doing it.


I'm still having a little trouble reconciling this -- and setting boundaries in general -- with Plan A. But I have talked to him about this anyway, and made it clear that as long as he still has any contact with her, I'm still threatened and defensive and cannot re-establish trust. He says he understands, but I'm not sure that he really gets it.


I really think he's trying, even if he is a little misguided. And I still love him and want to try, too. But I'm also finally figuring out that I'm not willing to SETTLE for less than what I need out of this relationship just to save our marriage and get him back. That's kind of a refreshing feeling for a change.

Sounds like you are in much better shape than you were even a mere few weeks ago.

It's great that you have a plan..I agree that regaining some sense of control over your circumstances DOES help to deal with the everyday issues on an everyday basis..don't worry about having a backdoor..everyone has a back door..looking realistically at your options has nothing to do with being dishonest. You have been honest. You have told him that your goal is to restore the marriage, all of your efforts and choices and actions are in agreement with that..but..he has also demonstrated that he is willing to be your enemy if it suites him. He is willing to lie, cheat, steal and bring destruction into your life and the lives of his children. He has two paths before him also..and decisions to make. If he chooses to be an enemy..you must be able to protect yourself. If you feel you can't protect yourself..you will be acting from a place of vulnerability and weakness and fear [again]..and you won't be ABLE to do what is necessary [three months of solid Plan A] so as you see..these are very connected.

Also..I'd like to agree with many posters that MC *DURING* an affair is not likely to be very productive..IC would likely be more usefull to you..is that an option?

I have a separate IC, mostly to deal with the baby stuff and depression and my own issues. Obviously the marriage stuff can't just be ignored, but the focus is individual. Anyway, she's much more proactive with specific tools and plans and exercises, which is much more helpful than the MC has been.

I agree that the MC seems pretty useless right now, especially ours. She doesn't have any plan, it's all just us talking about whatever we want to. It drives me nuts, I don't even think I'd call it MC, as much as just a dedicated time for us to really talk. BUT ..... H likes her and really thinks she's helping us a lot. He is almost eager to go every time, I think he feels like it's a safe place to talk, and he really opens up a lot when we're there -- talks about all kinds of things. So just for that reason, I'm up for it.

Thank you. I'm still pretty up-and-down. When I can focus on me and what I want, and what I need to do and change and what I can control -- it really helps. I start feeling stronger and like it's possible to get through this. But then when I start thinking too much about H, and his activities, and wondering what he's thinking, and why he's not doing all the things I think he should be doing, etc, that I start slipping again. Those aren't productive thoughts, and I know it. I try pretty hard to fight them off, and make sure I have other ways to vent during those big dips than to H.



I think about this a lot. I assume this is somehting that every BS goes through, but I just don't understand how he could be willing to give up our whole lives, put custody of his kids at risk, throw away our family and destroy our home for this. I know it's premature to even think about how to get past this, but I often worry that this is something I will NEVER be able to work through. I don't know if I will ever again be able to trust him to protect me, our kids, or our family since he found it so easy to destroy it all before. How can I believe that he can defend us from ANY kind of external threat, when he is an internal threat himself? It's like having a spy for the other guy hired to run your security department. This will be something that takes a long time to work out for me.



This makes a lot of sense and really helps. I guess that as I keep working on building up my "protections", I'm starting to see him as the enemy a lot more, which makes me very sad. Having a 'back door" plan makes me feel stronger and better about myself and my own chances, but every time I work on that part, it makes our chances of ever having a happy, loving marriage again feel pretty bleak.

Just a minor vent....

My kids' biological mother has not had any contact at all with them in years. No phone calls, birthday cards, holidays, nothing. Her parents see the kids for a long weekend or so every summer, and call every two or three months, but she is always flitting off to live with the next ex-husband or whatever, and never has any time or interest in the kids.

Recently, we've been getting LOTS of calls from her parent's house, but they are all late at night or in the middle of the day when the kids are either at school or in bed. We thought they were calling to set up a weekend with them for the summer. Nope -- it was her. She's in-between husbands, living with her parents, and suddenly wants to be a parent again. She finally started leaving messages, and then once got ahold of H in the middle of the day, talking about how much she loves and misses the kids and really wanted to talk to them and "catch up" (how do you "catch up" on years of no contact?), and how she wanted to take them to all these fun places this summer, blah blah blah.

So H scheduled a time with her when she could call and the kids would be home to talk to her. She wanted "hours" to talk to them, since they had SO much to talk about and catch up on.

She talked to each of them for less than 2 minutes last night, and spent the entire time pumping them for information "I heard your dad is getting divorced." Didn't want to know anything about what was going on in their lives or talk to them about the "fabulous summer plans" she supposedly has for them -- just wanted the dirt on us. We still have no idea how she heard anything, but this is a small town, and I think she still has some friends around here. After exposure, there were rumors FLYING all over the place, it was crazy how we'd hear things come back from everywhere. So she must have caught wind of one of the rumors, I guess.

Both kids just kind of blew it off and said they didn't know anything. And she decided she was done talking to them when they didn't have any information for her.

Wow. Sure wish I was as good a mom as she is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'm probably just tired, but I have been having this crazy thought ever since I talked to H's x-boss last week ... and right now it's starting to sound better and better ...

Would it do any good for me to confront the OW?

Everyone else in the world has been exposed to ... but I don't think she has any idea that her behavior hurts real people, real families. (This is not her first time at this game).

We've met before, a couple of times, both WAY pre-A, but we don't actually KNOW each other. Would it do any good if she KNEW me, as a real person, with real feelings, whose family she deliberately set out to destroy?

I'm not big on confrontation, I don't want to fight her or scream at her or make threats or anything like that ... not really sure WHAT I would actually say to her. I do know she's told people that she's afraid of me (although I'm not sure why, I'm a wimp and she is quite a bit taller and bigger than I am).

She has told other people that she started out with him as a challenge, because everyone thought that he would be the impossible goal. Who in the world DOES that???? Then she says once she "got" him, that he "led her on" and "let her fall in love with him". She told a mutual acquaintance that she'd been trying to talk him into kicking me out and moving her and her daughter in to our house! And she was ticked that he wouldn't even discuss it with her. She is reportedly pretty upset that he would so cruelly break her heart by breaking up with her and trying to work things out with his WIFE. She's also ticked about the recording stuff and that she was "outed" at work, but really everyone at her work already knew. They were the ones in on the challenge in the first place.

She's been pretty vocal to a lot of people who she knows I know ever since the recording stuff came down. I hear way too much about it, and I wonder if it's her indirect way of trying to communicate with me. Or if she just runs her mouth too much.

So is it stupid, pointless, crazy to want to meet with her? Or would it help me to slay some of my demons? I'll admit to occasionally getting a little obsessed with her when I can't help it. I wonder about the kind of person who could so blatantly do this and then think there was a FUTURE with her little challenge of the month conquest?

Don't.
What would it achieve? You would go thinking you were an iron woman, ready to face her and be cutting and calm and cold as ice. But this woman jumped on your back, stabbed you in the heart, shredded your confidence AND slept eith your WH.
It may all go horribly wrong and this fantasy encounter that you envisage of making her feel guilty could blow up in your face and end up with you felling destroyed again and her laughing.
I'm not for on a second suggesting that OW is "stronger" than you, just a whole lot meaner, nastier, crueller and insensitive.
Please don't go.
Kate xxx

Sigh ... you're probably right. I need to file this fantasy in with the other things that are 'fun' to think about but I'd never do ... like putting up a billboard in front of her house and office ... having beautiful, custom signage painted on her car ... finding her a job in Alaska...



Yeah... she definitely is those things.

Thanks for the advice, I will try to stop obsessing with her and put more energy back into my Plan A....

I have a friend whose 2-week old daughter just passed away. I'm so, so sad for her. She lost a baby at the same time we did 2 years ago -- that's how we know each other.

Now, at the risk of sounding self-absorbed, it's bringing back some of the really ugly stuff that I thought I'd worked through about losing my own son.

Glad H is working tonight ... it's hard to be strong and capable and all the other Plan A stuff when all I really want to do is bawl my eyes out all night.

Not sure why I'm posting any of this on here, guess I just need a place to process some of this stuff. And since it's the weekend I can't get into the counselor...

I'm just so, so sad tonight.

Hugz of support to you and your friend. Life is precious and is so hard to let go.

Hugz,
L.

Thanks, Orchid.

It's so devestating. I know it's not for us to understand God, but sometimes I just wish we could get a glimpse of the "why's". It's just all so wrong...I just don't get it.