Your question can raise a variety of answers depending on each individual's beliefs. Since you are wondering, I will share mine POV.

God does not delight nor make a person die. Death is the enemy of man (including babies). But death is not the end of our hope. There is a promise of eternal life in a beautiful paradise. There is more that brought comfort to me, but I will stop here. RE: More c/b learned but this is an MB site and I want to respect it properly.

I miscarried and felt a great loss. I can imagine how hard it must be for a parent to bring the life full term into the world just to see the life gone so quickly.

My grandmother lost her daughter at 19 and for a short period of time, she went insane....she never remembered her own daughter's furneral. To lose one as a baby c/b just as hard.

My condelences to you and your friend.

I can share more if you want, here's my addy: mborchid2@yahoo.com

L.

Orchid,

Thank you so much for posting to me. Last night was really a hard one for me to get through, so I truly appreciate you being here. Thank you!

I'm not sure if I'm just letting these circumstances really get to me or what, but today was not so great. My H just seems more and more withdrawn, and I know Plan A is intended to give him something to come back to, but that doesn't make the rejection feelings any easier.

I hate his work schedule. We never see each other. Gives me more time to work on me, I guess, but how am I supposed to attract him when we only see each other -- at all -- two days a week? We didn't even see each other today because he had a late case last night, so he slept until it was time to leave again for tonight's shift, and I was running the kids around between activities while he was up and getting ready to go. Saw him wave as he drove past us on the road, and that was it.

Guess I'm just sad and whiny today. Trying to hang in there and keep my eyes on the goal, though.

The plans are for you. Plan A helps you see where and how to make your personal improvements. Whether a WS or Xws recognizes or not is immaterial. It w/b nice but there is no guarantee they will. re: The state of mind of the WS or Xws must be receptive before they can acknowledge their BS' changes.

So the BS plugs along with plan A improvements. Once done and if the Ws is still a WS, then plan B is the next step. No prolonged plan A because that eventually makes the plan A efforts fall victim to 'enabling the A'. Plan B removes the BS from the A equation.

take care,
L.

Orchid, thanks so much for your posts and support over the weekend, can't tell you how helpful that was!


The rollercoaster is in full affect here. Saturday was detached and distant (when we talked, never actually saw each other). I checked all the phone record stuff to see if there had been contact with OW, but there hadn't been. I saw where you can install GPS on Nextel phones. I don't know if I can do it on my own, but I might try. If I can't, then I might ask his bosses to do it.

The good thing about Saturday: I had some time with no kids, so I finally finished moving all the rest of my stuff back into the house. I'd been living there, but didn't have all my stuff back, but now I do. It feels good.

On Sunday, H was all sunshine and roses .. super affectionate and fun ... played games with the kids and I and took all of us out to dinner. Lots of hugs and kisses and affection. It gets so confusing, but it's also SO nice to have those fun days.

After the kids went to bed, and we'd had some time together, he went with a friend (who I trust) to go work out. Late night "workouts" used to be his excuse for going to see OW. So before he left he put the friend on the phone with me to "confirm" where they were going, he also had me call OW's supervisor to confirm that she was working (and therefore could not be anywhere near the gym -- different offices across town, and she can't leave her desk during a shift). Then he called several times from the gym (the land line so it would show up on the caller ID). At some point I fell asleep and didn't wake up for his phone call. So he cut his workout short so he could come home -- he thought I had driven down there to see if he was really there (I had done that before when I was first starting to suspect the A). He said he didn't know if he should stay there so I'd see that he really was there, or if he should rush home so I'd know where he was.


It was kind of funny that he was so worked up about it. Made me feel good that he's trying really hard to establish his credibility about where he is, especially in this case which has been a problem before.

Of course he was expalining all of this after he got home, when I was 90% asleep. I don't think I responded much at all, just a thanks and snuggled up with him. Probably would have been much more witty if I'd been awake, but I don't think it was too bad.

So, don't really have anything real to say, just hanging on to the rollercoaster, I guess.

H got called in to work suddenly today, so I decided to keep the MC apointment, anyway. It was a little rough, but turned out to be a step in the right direction, I think.

I've been at a very high level of frustration the last few days, Plan A and H's mood swings are exhausting sometimes, and I have always been frustrated with the ineffectiveness of this counselor.

So I told her that today. I told her I wasn't seeing much good from us coming there, I was ticked off that she seemed to support H's theory that he could "just be friends" with OW, that all we did when we come was let H tell stories and chat, then occasionally vent and blame all of our pre-A marriage problems on me, and that none of this was helping me make the positive changes in my life that I knew I needed.

I might be PMS'ing, because I'm not normally so witchy.

She was very surprised that I considered the A to be ongoing and was in Plan A. I told her that I would conisder that to be the case until he broke ALL contact with OW, and comitted to working on the marriage. I showed her a place in the book that she had reccommended to us in place of SAA and HNHN (Surviving Infidelity) where it said the same thing -- that as long as WS has ANY contact with OP, there is no hope for recovery. She said she believed that, and thought that H HAD completely broken contact with OW, and that he HAD committed to working on the marriage (that's why he comes to MC, right?). So I reminded her of specific things he'd said in MC, and told her about other things that he's said to me separately, and she admitted that she had had the picture all wrong. She said that I seemed so calm and collected in all of our sessions before that she thought I was OK with how everything was going, and that she had thought we were making "surprisingly good" progress, and hadn't realized all of this was still there. Don't know where SHE's been the last two months, but I don't think she's been paying much attention. Either that or the AD's are working TOO well.

I told her that I saw OW as a person who had come in and trashed my home and beat me half to death with a baseball bat while H had let her. That she's still walking around out there with that bat, and that the one person who can protect me from her (H) wants to be FRIENDS with her instead and is telling me "Don't worry about it, I took care of that, it won't happen again." (Which is exactly what he said). I said as long as he still has contact with her, I see her as a threat, still walking around with the bat, and H wanting to "be friends" with her is the same as letting her take a swing once in a while just to keep me in line.

I said as long as the counselor kept supporting H in "just being friends" with OW, she was facilitating this continued threat to me.

I also told her that as long as H was not willing to protect me, then I had to protect myself and that was why I had been exposing before and talking to everyone that I could about it. She had not been a fan of my little letter-writing campaign to H's bosses, she had thought it was retaliatory.

So, she apologized for having read everything wrong, asked if we wanted a referral to a different counselor. I told her that H liked her, and it wasn't costing us anything to see her (thanks to fabulous insurance), so we'll keep going to her as long as he wants to, but that I wanted her to STOP telling him it was OK to have contact with OW, and did not want her to mess up my Plan A by either telling him about it or pushing him to commit to the marriage or whatever. She was very quick to agree to both or those things.

I suppose this could all backfire on me if she goes into too much detail with H about what I said, but I do feel like at least she's a little more tuned in now and not so bought in to H's charm. She may be able to eventually do us some good. And if not, she said she'd refer us to a counselor she knows who follows MB principals.


Man, my posts are way too long. Thanks to anyone who hangs in there and reads them anyway.

-Ami.

Oh well done Ami.

Thanks, Noodle. I felt pretty good afterwards.

H was VERY curious last night about what we had talked about. I gave him very minimal details and told him she wanted him to read the pages about NC in the book that she had reccommended to us (which she did say to tell him to do).

It drove him nuts that I didn't tell him every word that we'd talked about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That was kind of fun, too.

***I told her that I saw OW as a person who had come in and trashed my home and beat me half to death with a baseball bat while H had let her. That she's still walking around out there with that bat, and that the one person who can protect me from her (H) wants to be FRIENDS with her instead and is telling me "Don't worry about it, I took care of that, it won't happen again." (Which is exactly what he said). I said as long as he still has contact with her, I see her as a threat, still walking around with the bat, and H wanting to "be friends" with her is the same as letting her take a swing once in a while just to keep me in line.***

Fabulous analogy. Please save this somewhere so you can send to others here, too.

***I said as long as the counselor kept supporting H in "just being friends" with OW, she was facilitating this continued threat to me.***

Ami, YOU ROCK!!!

YOU GO, GIRL!!!

That freakin' counselor ought to be paying YOU for a lesson she shoulda got way back in college!!!

Where do these people go to school, anyway? On Uranus???

That was fantastic. You Rule. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

Edited to add: If this is what PMS can accomplish, then I say bring on PMS for EVERYONE!

great Ami!
You did exactly the right thing standing up to the "expert".
Unfrotunately too many counsellors are too obsessed with "doing what makes you happy and feels right" to ever bravely make a decision that could be morally based or challenged.
Our C told me and my WH that she hoped we had learnt a lesson from his A "that it was extremely foolish to have any strong moral beliefs".
WHAT? Where do they draw the line? Is murder O.K if you LIKE doing it?
Crazy people.
Well done.

Great job Ami- and exactly what I would have liked to do
with the counselor WH was seeing for IC/ turned MC !

I started off really liking the counselor when WH began to
see her for issues regarding his recently diagnosed bipolar
disorder and family dysfunction, but when the A resumed and
the sessions became more MC, she didn't seem to know what to do with us and I became increasingly frustrated that she seemed to be totally "conned" by WH and his "typical" WS
behavior (re-writing the past history of us and the M, making me the scapegoat, saying the A has nothing to do with it, etc.)

I tried several times to strongly state my position, let
it be known what I thought was happening, and told IC I
was feeling very "battered" and frustrated with it all
but I think the "damage was done", as far as her thinking
WH had made up his mind, wanted his freedom, and that I was
the "clingy", co-dependent wife who couldn't handle things
on my own and was grasping at straws to save a marriage.
At the last session I attended I said I wouldn't be coming
back because I thought the whole thing was giving WH an
opportunity to come up with excuses, justifications , that
WH never accepted any blame or responsibility, and that my coming was "enabling" him to continue the same. Said I
hoped that my no longer coming would allow WH to get back
to working on his own issues too.

I felt very disappointed and frustrated with the whole thing
since I had wanted, for so long, for WH to go to IC. I had
hoped working on his issues would ultimately help us, but
ended up feeling like it just made things worse.
Don't know if he'll continue to go alone for long, but know
he did go last week. Does make me wonder if he is going to
continue to talk about me and how "terrible" things have
been for him, or if IC will get him steered back to his
issues.

If the A ends, I'd be more than happy to do the work and
get into some good MC, but not with that counselor.

Glad yours seemed to have really listened and understood
your points and hope it will be effective.
More power to ya !
Slammed

Thanks, everyone. It feels good to have stood up for myself. Think I might have to start carrying that over into regular life, too (I'm normally a HUGE conflict avoider, to the point of often getting run over).


I don't know where some of these counselor's get their ideas. It makes you wonder if they aren't somehow planted here by the aliens....





HA!! I've been giggling about this comment all afternoon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


-Ami.

I just had a horrible dream ... it was crazy.

My H and my Dad were sort of interchanging through the whole thing... very creepy.

In the dream, my DD and I came out of some store to find the car gone. When we found it, someone had changed all the car-seat-covers around (the kids each have car seats customized with their names) and done other silly, harmless prank-type things to it. It was cute and funny. So then my dad was in the drivers seat, and my mom was in the passenger seat, and I was sitting behind the driver. We were trying to figure out who had played the prank, and it turns out it was H's NEW girlfriend. At this point, the driver had turned back into H, and he thought it was all terribly funny that I'd been so worried about him having contact with OW, but didn't even know about the NEW one.

I was so upset that I hit him over the head with a beer bottle! Then he pulled over and I kept slamming the car door on his arm and leg and fighting -- kicking and hitting and everything. He was laughing the whole time, and kept changing back and forth between my H and my dad.

It was very disturbing. I woke up bawling and with all kinds of adrenaline going ... ready for a fight.

Crazy!! Totally out of character, too, I've never gotten physical with anyone in my whole life. And a beer bottle to the head? I think I've been watching too many bad movies!


Anyway, we have MC tomorrow, I'm very interested to see what happens after my little "chat" with the MC last week.

Ami,

It's okay, I remember my first dream where I was violent, and it totally shook me. I would NEVER hit someone, ever.

IMVHO, Perhaps this could be a symbol of you fighting back and standing up for your integrity, which you did with counselor, and a very good job, indeed.

Let this dream roll off you, it is just your frustration relieving itself in your dreams. It is okay to feel angry. This is because you are hurt, and anger is such a typical reaction when you are hurt. You have not reacted in your anger, this is healthy. Looks like your dream got your angst out, LOL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are doing sooo well, and you are WORTHY. Stop the bad. It was only a dream after all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Kudos. Keep up the good work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

(((hugs)))

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Thanks, Miss M.

Maybe it is that I'm finally starting to stand up and fight for myself. It's about time.

My dad is a serial cheater, and on D-day, when I was incredibly upset, I told my H that he was an (explative) just like my dad. That cut him pretty deeply, he's brought it up in MC several times.

I'm just so frustrated with H. He is still entrenched in withdrawl and will be until he ends all contact with OW. So he's miserable and angry and withdrawn, which is really hard to take. Sometimes I want to just shake him, or maybe knock some sense into him with a beer bottle. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

We had a MC session today, the first one since I had talked to the MC.

It was pretty interesting.

H said that he is committed to working on the marriage (NEW!), but that some days he really dreads coming home and feels distant and doesn't want to be around me. He said he couldn't pin down why he felt that way, that he had put a lot of thought into it, and there was no real reason for it. He said he couldn't figure out a pattern to it and it wasn't something that I was causing. I tried to hold it together, but started crying during that discussion, because I definitely feel it when he's cold and distant like that, and it hurts SO much, but I try not to show that and Plan A Plan A Plan A.....

Anyway, I asked him if he thought the pattern might be related to the nights that OW works his shift. He got irritated that we were "back to that again" ... so I pulled out the counselor's SAA book and tried to explain the withdrawl theory. I didn't do a great job of it, but did read to him a couple of paragraphs that were SO incredibly dead-on that he was pretty shocked. So I asked him if he would keep a little journal, just to see if the theory held any water, and just note the days that she works and the days that he feels "distant" and see if there is any pattern there. And he agreed. He protested a lot, kept repeating that he'd told me that everything was over between them, I could listen to all their conversations and knew how rare they were, that he hasn't spoken directly to her in a long time, nothing except for over the radio where everyone could hear them, and certainly nothing inappropriate etc., etc., but he still agreed to keep a little log for himself and see if he could see the pattern.

So maybe there is a little more progress towards him "getting" the need for total NC. It was encouraging.


H also said that he thinks I've been avoiding bringing issues up, and that our conversations have been pretty superficial and we aren't discussing "the big issues that need to be addressed". I agreed that that was true. He wants us to have those kinds of discussions, but he wants me to be the one to bring them up because he wants me to be more assertive and start standing up for myself more.

So, being in Plan A, I've been trying to avoid bringing up "issues" and having big emotional conversations all the time. The only thing I've really stuck to is the NC thing, and even that I don't bring up all the time, just have repeated that we didn't have a chance to recover as long as he still works with her.

So how do I bring up "issues" and still Plan A? I'm not even really sure what kinds of "issues" to bring up -- what does he need me to bring up?

Communication is one of our big hurdles, and I'm a terrible conflict avoider, so this is a big thing for me to work on. I think it's one of his EN's, though ... being able to trust that I'll be open about my feelings with him, even if I don't think he will like it. I just honestly don't know what I'd say....????

Any advice?

Thanks.
-Ami.

Bumping ... and I rambled a lot before, so don't think I was very clear on what my question is ....

I still consider us in Plan A, and still assume the A is ongoing until H figures out a way to cut off contact -- which will mean leaving his job.

Plan A conversations are supposed to be light and happy, etc., and I'm supposed to be meeting his EN's. He has said that one of his NEEDS is for me to "bring up the issues" related to the A and to the problems we had before the A, and for us to discuss them.

I have no idea WHAT to bring up? Do I talk about recovery kinds of things now? And if so, what would that even mean? Do I just keep rehashing how hurt and betrayed and angry I feel? That doesn't seem very productive. Keep beating on the NC thing? I have no idea. And how do I do these things and still stay light and happy and strong and confident and Plan A, too?

Please, any advice will help. He's actually scheduled specific time for us to talk, and one is tonight. I really don't have any idea what I'm suposed to do here.

Thanks!
-Ami.

Ask him what issues he would most like to discuss..don't discuss them yet ..just gather info..thank him for sharing and tell him you will think about it and get back to him at XXXXX time.

I don't think conversations should be "light and happy" in Plan A. I think converstions should fulfill each other's EN's without LBing. You CAN talk about some pretty deep topics in Plan A. You may not want to CONTINUALLY talk about the A or OW in Plan A...give each other a break...but you don't COMPLETELY take this off the table. Plan A is a time to practice new marriage skills, which includes Radical Honesty...

I missed the part where he wants to talk tonight..

Ok, I'd take the same approach..and just let him have his turn to address what he wants..from his perspective.

I would definitely not commit to giving an answer or an opinion about anything [in fact I would really avoid it if I were you] and just listen and take notes about what he is saying.

Then say you want to think about and absorb these things and you will get back to him on XXX date.

There are a few reasons I suggest this tactic.

1 It may be a trap. Have you ever heard of the sales technique that pushes people for decisions before they have had a chance to digest? It's called the hard sell. It is incredibly effective. You wouldn't believe how much a person will give *if* they allow someone to force a sense of urgency on them.

2 It won't satisfy him. He will be left wanting something from you. He will not be able to predict your responses..he won't know what to think if you kindly but mysteriously put him off. It leaves him hanging..how coy of you Mrs. Walsh.

3 You genuinely do need time to translate and digest the info..then more time to give consideration to your response.

Good luck.

Thanks, Noodle!

I did ask him that when he brought it up in the MC appointment. He just said that we only have superficial conversations and hadn't talked about the real problems since the first few weeks after d-day (when I was not living at home, and would come over to tuck the kids in, then H and I would get into big, long, emotional discussions, getting everything out on the table).

He said that he doesn't want to bring things up because he would just be saying "look what I did" "look at how I screwed up" and that he wants me to start standing up for myself and be strong enough to bring the topics up.

It's true, our conversations recently are very superficial, we haven't had the big, long, emotional discussions since the first few weeks after D-Day. Other than in MC, we haven't had many discussions about the A at all recently. I'm a big avoider, so I think he thinks I'm avoiding things? And just sweeping everything under the carpet?

I'm not really sure.