Guess that makes three of us ...

Any vets out there or FBS's who can help us with this?
Is this normal?
Does it go away or is it an indication that things are over?

Help!

I'm no expert either. But, I'm wondering this... your WH said he wanted you to be honest about your feelings, right? Does he know how you feel and what you're thinking? I wonder what the experts would think about you being honest and telling him exactly what's going on. I don't know how that fits into Plan A, but maybe it'd be a wake up call for him.

Ami:

I haven't kept up with your situation.

However, I will share a little about my situation, hoping this will be helpful.

My FWH had a long-term affair, lasting over two years and before it was all over he felt like he was "in love" with her, she was his "soulmate" and he was ready to give up everything for her. He was going to start his life all over again.

We are very, very happily recovered. I don't think he could love me more. He calls me constantly and always ends the conversation by saying "I love you".

I certainly can't say that your situation will end as mine has. To me, it was well worth it to do all that I could possibly do to save my marriage. I wanted my H back and continued to be very much in love with him. However, the process was very DIFFICULT. I had to do PLAN A, PLAN B and we have had 3 difficult years of RECOVERY.

It took at least six months of WITHDRAWAL before my H seemed over her. It has taken this full 3 years for him/for us to be NORMAL again. I look back at my posts and my thinking a year ago and I am amazed at the changes that I have made and how far I have come.

You have suffered a major psychological trauma, Ami. It will take a long time for you, yourself, to heal from this regardless of whether you reconcile with your H or not.

I made the choice to FIGHT for my MARRIAGE because I refused to hand my H over to the OW without raging a BATTLE first...

He was lost to me and now I have found him.

It's a year out for me, and I find my thoughts still flip-flopping at times.

I've found helpful to remind myself of the three "legs" of M: love, trust and commitment, and work on how best to improve them, and give myself a timetable to work with.

e.g.

"Love" - No doubt in my mind that I love my FWW, but the feeling of being "in love" with her varies at times, and it's apparently got a lot to do with two ENs of mine that she's not quite filling the way that I like: Affection and SF. Apparently I'm not doing the best job of filling her primary ENs as well. And we're still working on the conversation thing, but getting better and better at it.

"Trust" - Interestingly enough, I feel that she trusts me less than I trust her. Perhaps she thinks that I would have an A out of revenge, or she feels that I'm just acting things out. I'm hoping that as I consistently show her that I'm interested in R, she will trust me more.

"Commitment" - I think we are both "committed" towards our M, but we have slightly different views on commitment. I'd like her to be more active in working to make our M the best it can be; she thinks that I'm obsessed about it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

We did a review our M about a month ago (basically we each gave the other 10 statements that we thought summed up our M). It was quite depressing, but there was some hope in some of the statements.

I plan to do the same sort of review on our anniversary in 6 months time, then again in a year. If our feelings remain the same, then it would be obvious that nothing we're doing seems to be helping and it's time to try something different if we're not getting what we want in our M, or call it quits and try to find happiness elsewhere.

Notice my emphasis on "we". One of the most interesting things I learnt recently is that she thought that I thought that she was not good enough for me. As a BS, I was actually thinking that she felt that I was not good enough for her...!

Ami,

"H has two interviews next week, both in the state, but out of OW's reach. He got the time off to go to them, is staying with my sister while he's there, so she'll be able to "keep an eye on him"."

Your H has then agreed to get another job to maintain NC, and now he's working on it. Where's your implosion coming from? Many of us had to wait months for NC due to work...and no recommitment to working on the marriage...and there was anger, entitlement, resentment, fear, frustration and pain...as you are feeling. Plan A is being authentic to others and to yourself...find out where your pain is coming from...or if you want your H to writhe in your emotions as payback for what he did to you. You need to choose...for you. Your integrity wouldn't allow you to cheat on him...I know it won't allow you to see all your pain coming in from the outside...not owning your part, your growth...

"It should be good, right?" If you choose to live with "shoulds" in your life, your bitterness, self-created, will doom your efforts because you are telling self how life should be when it isn't...lots of pain in that.

"But the last few days, I've been really wondering why in the world I'm going through all of this????"

Your choice.

"H doesn't care, so why am I trying so hard?"

Your DJ injures you, your WH and your marriage. You're choosing to DJ.

"He hasn't worn his wedding ring since before d-day 1."

Why are you choosing to be a slave to what your WH thinks, feels and does? Why do you choose to measure and assume when this is devastating to you? Why not move your focus onto you, to do a respectful, authentic Plan A?

"He is not affectionate unless I initiate it, and he acts like he is "putting up with me" all the time."

More DJs...they love bust your love and him.

"I already whined here about his comments in MC" There is a difference between venting to see what you're angry about and own it...spewing to get it...and DJing yourself as "whining" which is using your time and others to not seek inside yourself, but to be fixed from the outside.

"he feels trapped, he thinks it would be easier to get out, he sometimes can't stand the thought of coming home to me..." He specifically said YOU WEREN'T THE CAUSE OF HIS FEELINGS...one of the core problems of your pre-A marriage was being enmeshed with one another...it is toxic. Do you want to break this dance or choose to recreate in future relationships?

"So why am I going through all of this? Why even try to save this marriage?"

Do you want to learn your part, your power, or recreate this situation again and again? You did not cause your WH's infidelity...just half of the marriage is within your power. I promise you, Plan A is for authentic living, with human power and limits...and it can teach you to live and love respectfully...if you choose.

"You know what I loved about my H? His sense of honor and integrity. That I could trust him. I married him beacuse I KNEW I would never have to worry about him, of all people in the world, cheating on me."

So your H (before WH) was loved for something he did...or rather, didn't do...he earned your love...wasn't your choice to love, he earned it, is that correct?

"But now all of that is gone. So what is there to save? I can afford my house on my own. I will get to see the kids a lot, but wouldn't have any responsibility for them ... It would be fun to get to be the "fun" "Disney-Land" parent for a change. (They are step-children, we've had full custody for most of their lives, but I have no legal right to them)."

You chose him and his children; you risk losing them entirely, don't you? They risk losing you...and it isn't entirely out of your hands, is it?

"Maybe he's right -- Maybe it WOULD be easier to get the he11 out."

Easier is a fantasy...I think you both know that. It soothes and comforts...thinking that the pain will end instanteously upon deciding to split...your WH has already gone through that once before...hasn't he? Pain doesn't end instanteously...it drags on, it's a horror and the reality of it continues...living in the present will save your marriage.

All WS's will say, "Why try? It will only be more pain and suffering if I recommit." This is part of the justification for A's, the self-deceptive self-coaching part...please do not contaminate yourself with this, because it is like becoming wayward, isn't it? Entitlement fueled by resentment and lack of respect. BS's are susceptible to following these exact same ingredients...as are all humans...use these as signals to you that you are lost in creating resentment, it has a fake payoff, find it and know it...so you stop the key ingredient in yourself.

"He'd be a lot more screwed than I would if we divorced."

Revenge thinking.

"I would be better off, get to do what I want to do instead of take care of someone who apparently couldn't care less."

So you didn't want to take care of your H? You were made to do it? You didn't have a choice? See how inside your fury is being fed by your thoughts? It is signalling you what you are choosing to believe...and it is devastating to you, your self, and your own integrity. Most WS's believe their spouses wouldn't be hurt by their A because THEY COULD CARE LESS. Is that truth? Oh, no. Is it entitlement? Yes. Is it a fantasy. Yes. Is it what we tell ourselves when we care the most, feel the most rejection (as you are feeling)?

"My income would just go to supporting myself, not his hobbies or the kids or anything else like that." Notice resentment here. From pre-A?

"OR I could give up my job and my house and my life just to move across the state and start all over again with a man who isnt' sure if he wants me or not .. and all just because he can't keep his [email]d@mn[/email] zipper up?"

Why are you a slave to what he wants/doesn't want (and you don't know because he doesn't know right now)? Where is your power, your choice? We choose to love...we believe we love...we make that belief our choice and receive the feelings as signals from our belief...if you want to earn love, then you will be a slave to others' and full of resentment, entitlement...all your life. Be free, Ami. Use this time as healing yourself, knowing all about you and what you do, so that no matter what someone else decides, you know your own self well enough to make your own decision and see your choices. That's God's design...Freedom, Responsibility and Love. When we are enmeshed, we take on responsibility which isn't ours (our spouse's feelings, thought and beliefs) as our own, and shove ours on their shoulders...we weren't designed to be able to carry both...just what is ours...and respect what is theirs...our human limit...we cannot cause, control or cure anyone else on this earth. We were all created equal, separate, responsible for our own stuff...that's our human limit. We have influence, but only when allowed. And to balance our limit, God gave us freewill...no one can cause you, control or cure you...only you. Freedom. And in that choice, Love. If you choose. Your power.

"Why? Why try to save this? Is it worth all of this? Wouldn't it be easeir to just get the pain over with and cut my losses?"

And recreate and wonder why you keep having this happen...because the next person may bring you betrayal in a different way...financially? Through family commitment? Emotionally? You may feel betrayal every day and not have realized it...or how much you betray yourself.

The challenge of the BS is to learn their power, their limit, if they want a truly thriving, respectful, abundant marriage...if you use anger (which is a secondary emotion, what was your primary one?) to feel powerful, you are betraying yourself...being self-deceiving because only you can know your feelings, where they are coming from and what they mean...

I am not saying your feelings are invalid or wrong...they are yours...you have been betrayed in the worst way...I know, I remember...and I felt swallowed up, erased, replaced and annihilated...you're not alone...look at all those on your thread who are in the same place...

If I had not come to MB and been told my DJs were toxic...I wasn't safe for my spouse...WS or not...to really work and own my part...I would not have gotten to my power, and now have a peaceful, deeply loving, thriving marriage...where we are equal partners, with no fears of infidelity on either part...and where meeting ENs is joyful, because we choose to love and love loving...

You can do this. All of you. You don't change yourself...you change your beliefs...choose your perspective and thoughts...and live your power...which brings you close to God, others and your self...

If your intent to do Plan A is to manipulate your WH into loving you again (he never stopped IMO)...then you will have a manipulative marriage, won't you?

If your intent is to live authentically, respectfully and with keen awareness of life...then what kind of marriage would you have?

LA

Thanks, Grown up.
No, I haven't told my H what's going on with me right now, partly because I don't really know myself. Maybe I'm trying to feel it out some by posting here and trying to get advice. I think I was afraid to say anything like that because it would be so harsh, but you're right, it would be honest ... and HE's been honest even when it's harsh, so maybe I need to think about talking to him about this.

Mimi, it helps a lot to hear that there's a light at the end of this tunnel, so thank you for posting your story. Maybe if I can keep the focus on that potential future, then I can get through the right-now stuff.

MIM ... I think I've been wanting instant fixes, I want everything to be better right this minute. So hearing that a year out you are still in limbo is a little scary to me ... but also probably a good dose of reality. Maybe my impatience is what's really getting hte better of me here. Thanks for your help!


Loving Anyway ... wow, you really nailed me. Thank you. I amstill trying to process a lot of what you wrote, so I will try to reply better a little later. I could realy use some help with some of the things you brought up. I'll gather my thoughts a little bit better and try to post again later tonight. Thank you very much for your very thoughtful response.


Don't know what I'd do without this board!

-Ami.

LA,

I want to thank you again for your very thoughtful response. Very much of what you said was right on, and really made me think a lot. There are some big things I could use some help with.


Plan A is being authentic to others and to yourself...
This one comment sums up a lot. I don't think I've been authentic to myself or anyone else in a very, very long time.

For as long as I can remember, I've compromised and settled and stuffed my own feelings and desires to the point that very often I don't know what I want or even what I like. I though that was the "right" thing to do -- make everyone else happy and don't dare rock the boat or make anyone else uncomfortable, regardless of how uncomfortable I am. I thought that was how to "make" people love me -- make them happy, do what they want, say what they want, be what they want. In my mind, speaking up or disagreeing is being 'b1tchy' and rude and unlovable.

Not very authentic at all, is it? So I've got a LONG way to go in this department, and I really have no clue how to even start to get there.



find out where your pain is coming from...or if you want your H to writhe in your emotions as payback for what he did to you.

No, it's not that I want payback. I don't want him to feel like this.

My pain is coming from my LB having run on fumes for a long time -- even pre-A. And that's mostly a result of my own choices, not standing up for myself and not speaking my own mind -- not even really knowing my own mind, probably, and giving up on what I want because I thought that would make him happy.

We've talked before about EN's, and I've told him what I need. His response has been to tell me that it's a burden for him to have to meet those needs, and he is annoyed at having to do it. Even pre-A, I used to ask him for 5 minutes a day (and then even modified that to just on days that he wasn't working) that we could just talk and only focus on each other -- just checking in and talking about whatever is important and having no other distractions. You would have thought I'd asked him to pull his fingernails out. He would sigh and roll his eyes and totally tune out -- anytime we spoke at all, he'd ask "does this count as part of my 5 minutes?". So I gave up and stopped asking for that anymore. That's just one example, in general, if I have needs or wants, they go go unmet and ridiculed. And I haven't ever stood up and said that I was not OK with that.

In the meantime, he regulalry tells me that I meet all of his needs, "take good care of him", etc. But right now, it doesn't seem like that's making him very happy. In fact, it seems like it's lost me some of his respect. Like he's kind of disgusted by me being a "doormat" and meeting his needs even despite all of what has happened.

And really, if I'd really been meeting all of his needs, then I wouldn't be here, would I??


Your integrity wouldn't allow you to cheat on him...I know it won't allow you to see all your pain coming in from the outside...not owning your part, your growth...

You're right, I wouldn't cheat on him, although I often think how nice it would feel to be admired and wanted and all of those feelings again.

You're also right that I own a big part of this. I just am not sure what to do about it. And that's frustrating for me.

Why are you choosing to be a slave to what your WH thinks, feels and does? Why do you choose to measure and assume when this is devastating to you? Why not move your focus onto you, to do a respectful, authentic Plan A?

How do I do this?? I feel rejected and discarded, how do I take the focus off of that and focus on myself? (That sounds argumentative, it's not intended that way. I just can't fathom what steps to take to do this, can you please get really specific here?)


one of the core problems of your pre-A marriage was being enmeshed with one another...it is toxic. Do you want to break this dance or choose to recreate in future relationships?
Yes! You're absolutely correct. I want to break this dance, I just have no clue how to go about doing that. I feel like I'm failing miserably and don't know how to fix things.


So your H (before WH) was loved for something he did...or rather, didn't do...he earned your love...wasn't your choice to love, he earned it, is that correct?

I'm not sure I 'get' this. It was absolutely my choice to love him, and I loved him because of who I thought he was. Not what he did.


So you didn't want to take care of your H? You were made to do it? You didn't have a choice? See how inside your fury is being fed by your thoughts? It is signalling you what you are choosing to believe...and it is devastating to you, your self, and your own integrity.

This is a great point. I did -- and do -- want to take care of my H. I like it, and it has always been my choice to do so. I like knowing that I made his day just a little bit better. I will try to keep reminding myself of that when I start feeling sorry for myself.


"My income would just go to supporting myself, not his hobbies or the kids or anything else like that." Notice resentment here. From pre-A?

Yes, this resentment is from pre-A. We have very different styles with money, and have never addressed it very well.


"OR I could give up my job and my house and my life just to move across the state and start all over again with a man who isnt' sure if he wants me or not .. ."

Why are you a slave to what he wants/doesn't want (and you don't know because he doesn't know right now)? Where is your power, your choice?

I think my only choice and power here is to decide whether I go with him or not? But the whole point of him looking for other jobs is for NC with OW ... so I don't feel like I have a lot of choice here -- it's either give up my house, job, and life here, or my marriage. And right now the house, job, and life here are a lot more stable than the marriage.


We choose to love...we believe we love...we make that belief our choice and receive the feelings as signals from our belief...if you want to earn love, then you will be a slave to others' and full of resentment, entitlement...all your life. Be free, Ami. Use this time as healing yourself, knowing all about you and what you do, so that no matter what someone else decides, you know your own self well enough to make your own decision and see your choices. That's God's design...Freedom, Responsibility and Love. When we are enmeshed, we take on responsibility which isn't ours (our spouse's feelings, thought and beliefs) as our own, and shove ours on their shoulders...we weren't designed to be able to carry both...just what is ours...and respect what is theirs...our human limit...we cannot cause, control or cure anyone else on this earth. We were all created equal, separate, responsible for our own stuff...that's our human limit. We have influence, but only when allowed. And to balance our limit, God gave us freewill...no one can cause you, control or cure you...only you. Freedom. And in that choice, Love. If you choose. Your power.

I printed this out and put it in my journal. I will have to read it several times, I've been doing things very wrong for a very long time. I have always tried to earn love ... I need to start getting this right.


If your intent to do Plan A is to manipulate your WH into loving you again (he never stopped IMO)...then you will have a manipulative marriage, won't you?

I admit this was my intent, because this is all I've ever known.

If your intent is to live authentically, respectfully and with keen awareness of life...then what kind of marriage would you have?

This is what I would very much like. I have never understood how to live this way and often envied people who did. I need to figure out how to get to this, it's just so foreign that I'm having a hard time trying to grasp it.


Thank you, again. I still have a lot to digest and learn from your post.

Ami,

Thank you for reading and responding...I'm grateful you took the time and took it to heart...

All the answers are already in you...so what I tell you is what you already know...and it will resonate inside of you...like coming to the surface...

How you change from earning love (and having others earn your love) you already stated...you change your belief. Currently you have the belief we earn love...pick a new belief and repeat it...each time you're inclined to stuff your feelings (which is earning your own love), repeat your new belief and mentally picture yourself tossing out the old one and putting this one in its place...each time you stop yourself from speaking your truth (and yes, you stop the WAY you speak it...timing, reactivity, etc...not YOUR truth or that you believe in O&H), remind yourself you believe love is a choice...and you are choosing to love yourself and others...without LBing...

I had to change another belief...find out if you had this one...if I am good enough, I will be loved...this is a little different in that I believed pleasing was good..and learned it isn't...it is disrespectful and I was abusively disrespectful...fixing people is...getting that shock to my system...whoa...everyone is as capable as I am...to fix them is telling them they are not capable...only I am...they are wrong...I am right...lots of stuff...so I stopped pleasing with the intent to be liked/loved...and began respecting.

Sacrifice kills love...why? Because it tells Self only the other person is worth it...what do you sacrifice for self? (It's a braintwister)...you are second-class citizen to self when self is the one you make sacrifice for others...doing this can give you feelings of grandiosity (they need whatever it was more); inferiority (I won't be loved by other if I don't); or that pervasive if Self isn't perfect, its unloveable...all yucky, btw. And untrue.

We create our own resentment...sacrifices are resentment...we don't do anything without a payoff...so find your payoff in having a low love bank...could you be draining it yourself with your own LB's? And then looking at H or others and wondering why they aren't filling you up? This was me...I had no idea LB went both ways...(Love Busters, not love banks)...what I do to others, I do to myself...judgment (have to gauge when you're good enough, what you're entitled to, deserve, have earned)..DJ's to others and to self; AO's? Inside bashing and outside bashing; lies...we know those go inside and out, right? Self-deception is the hardest lie to see...easily mirrored in our WS's though, and a great sign to look in at ourselves and see what we hide from us and in what way...what payoff?

Self-bashing is awful...easiest thing for BS's to do, too, I believe, because they were doing it pre-A...the payoff is security...feeling safe...if we punish ourselves enough, we won't do wrong...and that is the parent/child's way, not the adult way...adults do awareness, ownership and amends...which also is a great way to do kids (pssst!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now, your WH isn't through withdrawal (him talking about not being able to meet your ENs)...and believe me, do not believe this as THE truth, just his truth, right now.

I say this because my H's line before his A was "I'm incapable of that"...deal with it. Guess what? ANYONE was incapable of meeting my ENs to the degree I needed them met...back then. Oh, yeah. True. Since I carried all my H's thoughts, feelings and beliefs (was the cause, control and cure) and I kept shoving mine onto him...then he felt my ENs were overpowering...and they were...until I owned truly and in reasonable quantity what I needed...and began meeting my own...owning my stuff...loving myself...then he couldn't.

He does it easily now, btw...and vice versa...I know what I'm talking about. Breaking the enmeshment comes first...injecting respect...knowing you're separate and equal is super difficult...start there...then work towards ENs because just like you said...we don't even know ours, truly, do we, until we look inward, not outward?

More to come...have to run...(ack...I rhymed)...

LA

***And really, if I'd really been meeting all of his needs, then I wouldn't be here, would I??***

Don't even go there, Ami. That's not true. Many of us here had good happy marriages before the WS decided they were entitled to help themselves to a great big portion of cake and simply saw no reason not to. Sometimes, that's all it is.
Mulan

Second that.

Don't go there.

Look back at your own descriptions. He said you did a good job "taking care of him"..you said your love bank was empty/needs going ummet for a long time before his A.

Using this logic..you should be the one having the affair.

I would like you to put your WH's response to your ENs out of your head for now...even pre-A...enmeshment distorts and respect clarifies...you asked too little...five minutes a day...yet by asking for too little may have been twisted into him hearing he wasn't good enough for more...would fail even your minimum needs...happens when we are overwhelmed with what isn't ours...

Know the worst thing to do to someone? To give them all the responsibility for something and none of the control. Awful and ironic...at the heart of infidelity, we are told we are responsible for what we couldn't be, and are shown we have no control...it's in there, somewhere.

Actually, a lot of what we go through as parents comes from this...we are told we are responsible and yet, our children are separate beings, not within our control...they willing obey...and we see when they don't...don't we?

Notice each time you feel responsible for what is not within your control...here is where you have taken on what cannot be yours and not left room for what only is yours.

Can you see the balance in God's design? It flows, back and forth, never one way...always two, back and forth...that's how we ripple...not by doing, but by being.

About meeting his ENs so well you believe you lost his respect...don't listen to that now...when you meet ENs, choose to do so from your code...standards and boundaries...not reactively...you'll begin to build self-respect with your choices...and you chose to give up on requesting your five minutes...you reacted to his reaction...his statement...his body language....stop reading, interpreting, mindreading and assuming...it's disrespectful. His words are his...listen and repeat. Do not allow them to come into your brain until you are ready to know they are not yours...you can believe differently...you listen and repeat to know...not to judge. Not to believe.

Btw, we stab ourselves with our WH's words...and you'll find you do that with others...what the cashier said or that guy in the line at the DMV...we take things to hurt us when we are used to mindreading to please, to earn...and to punish ourselves or be justifiably angry with others. Their words are theirs..opinions, not facts. I promise.

"And really, if I'd really been meeting all of his needs, then I wouldn't be here, would I??"

You just stabbed yourself with a false belief. You have no control over his choice to cheat. You never did, never will...he did that. You can meet a lot of his needs and have those deposits wiped out with one LB...and when we're enmeshed, we are in a manipulative relationship, so know that there are a lot of LBs from and to both of you...

Let his disgust be his...and do not DJ. Do not stab yourself. His perspective is his...he lives from his feelings as you did...and you didn't know you choose your perspective, did you? Choose your beliefs...your thoughts? From those choices, you choose your feelings...wow! Who knew? You can't disgust him...he feels it. It's his. Leave it over there, with him, 'k?

This is all for now...the ENs, etc., will take on new meaning as you stay true to your self...when you stop inwardly hurting yourself, you'll see less pain coming in...

Blame is frustrating...ownership is liberating. Know the difference. What you own is what you can control...we can control blaming, but not being blamed...owning your choices today will not be frustrating...owning your past choices takes self-compassion...know the difference.

About wanting admiration and desire...I found when I looked at my ENs what I wasn't doing for me...admiring myself, appreciating, giving myself attention, affection...sounds odd, but I swear by it...because self only wants to these things from us...and often, we see them lacking in being given to us...stuff calms down, reasonable levels, when we do our part for us...self-bashing drains our own love banks, too...punishing us for what isn't self power...trusting self helps you trust others...not blindly, not from need...but because you're willing to trust yourself.

Very difficult as a BS...essential for your life.

"How do I do this?? I feel rejected and discarded, how do I take the focus off of that and focus on myself? (That sounds argumentative, it's not intended that way. I just can't fathom what steps to take to do this, can you please get really specific here?)"

I found how much I rejected myself...by pushing down emotions, being full of shoulds, sacrifice and pleasing/doing/earning; felt last place A LOT...because that was exactly where I was putting myself, wasn't it?

Choose your beliefs...

You are irreplaceable. God loved you before you were conceived; you were known before you were born; you are marvelously made with purpose...whole and complete. Why do you treat yourself as defective? Unloved unless by others? Because you don't love yourself and know your own love unless you accomplish, are good, do well. Why are you doing this when God doesn't? Choose to believe this universal truth...and believe it about everyone on the planet. Separate and equal...whole and complete...best place to start your Openness and Honesty (O&H) with yourself...you cannot be discarded...YOU ARE. You cannot be rejected by God...and often, where we see rejection we are seeing others fail our expectations, NOT rejection. They look and feel the same way...when we're so diligently earning...we are soaked with expectations (which are premediated resentments...ask LostHusband...I'm quoting him)...know this...believe this...

The more you judge, the less acceptance you will feel...will be able to feel. The more you feel rejection the less love you will be able to feel...doesn't mean acceptance and love aren't in abundance...resentment is judgment, expectations...I think you're getting the picture.

We get in our own way. We are not wrong or defective...we have to choose that belief as adults...we get them as children...

Accept yourself...judge less. Choose not to create new resentment...do not choose a single action which you will feel resentment for...be respectful of self...know your equality...it is not self-absorbed or selfish...it is centered in self and truth...choose from your standards (define what you will not allow yourself to do to others OR to yourself); know and enforce your boundaries (what you will not allow others to do to you, nor what you won't allow you to do to yourself)...

Takes time and small steps...begins with respect and owning you are whole...not easy from a lifetime of earning, being good enough...what helped me to stop the earning love belief was knowing it came with a lot of other stuff--if I earned love, then I could lose love; if I could do wrong, be bad, then I could be punished (deservedly); and if I could be bad, then others could, and I could punish them...

Nasty business, eh? Doesn't respect where I ended and where my H began...we were "one"...completing each other instead of two wholes complementing one another...tell me, how do you have personal boundaries when two are one?

Tricky, huh? Get separate to become one.

So, now you know you have a compulsion to fix things...people...yourself. You're not broken. They aren't broken...stop fixing. Begin discovering. See your WH as new...and you will, as you get to see yourself true, for the first time...everyone will be new, distinct...no more mindreading or assumptions...practice. Catch yourself. Congratulate yourself for catching yourself...no doormat in that, huh? Listen and hand back their words...to confirm or clarify...not to dissuade, persuade or argue. It's their opinion. It's their perception. Mind your own...know your own...

"I'm not sure I 'get' this. It was absolutely my choice to love him, and I loved him because of who I thought he was. Not what he did." I heard you say you loved him for his integrity...and integrity is made up of actions, choices...hence, what he did. Choosing to love is choosing to accept all of a person...not his actions...essence...self. Usually, when we're earning and judging it...then we are loving on actions...and yes, after you get separate and ENs get met and no LBs and you practice the four rules of marriage, actions are part of loving, as long as you don't lose sight of your choice. There's no "You made me love you" anymore than "You made me hate you." Get to ponder this...and you'll see...you may well have loved him by choice...you chose him...that's different...then know you love him now, at the worse of the "better and worse" vow...because his self didn't make those choices and run to fantasy...self didn't...his false one did. (You can skip this for now.) LOL.

You'll be amazed how you won't need to feel sorry for yourself the more you make your day a little better, the more you recognize your time and focus on yourself is well-spent, loving...loving inward as you loved outward will clarify a lot. We are made to love God's creation...we ARE his creation, and a lot of stuff happens after we're born and we get away from that...getting back to that gives you abundant love from the inside which flows outward...overflows, floods, even...no longer are you trying to give to get love back, be filled...you already are.

Consider doing a resentment timeline...this is where you sit down and write out from the beginning of your marriage, every incident where you resented...chronologically, through your marriage. Then you put it away and don't look at it for two days. Go back to it, re-read it, add what you've thought of...and put it away for two days. Go back and read it one last time, all the way through, and write down what you learned...what your perspective is, six days after...and tell someone (posting here is great) what you learned, realized...

Clearing out old resentments gives you the OW advantage...then you have the history AND are a clean slate...no AP can beat that.

"I think my only choice and power here is to decide whether I go with him or not?"

He doesn't have a job yet, correct?

When humans are in pain, we see absolutes...only this or this...and they are usually extremes. Know this. Don't live by it.

We have a thousand choices in between...some are tiny and have big effects...others, larger, still less than those two extremes...look for them. Know why your DJ (that he could care less) is affecting what you see as your choices.

"But the whole point of him looking for other jobs is for NC with OW" I ask you to see how this is an act of commiting to you and the marriage (separate from moving, etc.) "... so I don't feel like I have a lot of choice here --" you don't know yet what you'll choose...first is to see all your choices

"it's either give up my house, job, and life here, or my marriage." There are no other jobs in your area?

"And right now the house, job, and life here are a lot more stable than the marriage." Affairs have a way of pushing us to really see our priorities...and I found out, I put my children ahead of my marriage...and I discovered that was detrimental to them and my marriage. I switched my priorities...I know I could make my part of the marriage stable...enforce boundaries, maintain my standards and be stable...

Can this momentous decision be delayed a week while you focus on yourself, own your own and see where you don't control and where you do?

Staying present...right now...helps a lot.

You're not alone in the way you're used to living...I did for 42 years straight...same for my H; and yes, we handed it down to our children...we've not broken that legacy, and we rejoice. We really do.

You can, too.

Breathe deeply, slowly...know you are whole...everything in you is one...emotionally, physically, mentally and spiritually...and you're wonderfully made.

By knowing this, replacing your belief you're not good enough, not worthy or of value..when you have been, always, and were made so...changes a lot right there, doesn't it? Then when you speak your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...owning them in "I feel" and "I believe" statements, they are no longer about someone else...they are about you...and you're worth it.

You can do this...ponder, pray, know and be grateful you came here to MB...recognize all you do matters...and even when you don't do, just be, you matter.

Hard part? You're so used to strategizing that stopping cold turkey is really tough! Catch your thoughts and bless them...release them...know if you're choosing a word or action based on a possible response...or if you are being true to yourself...

You're not alone, Ami...this isn't for special people...I promise...all people can do this...will do this at some point in their lives...it takes what it takes...

That's why Plan A can give you what you need to save the marriage or live without it...because it does take two...only you have to go first...and it's a glorious, redeeming place to be.

LA

With Mulan here. My marriage was good...before the transformation from WS to Alien began.

Just a cakeeater...my xh.

I'm still digesting all of the posts above. I've printed them and read them several times. It's going to take some big changes in my whole way of thinking, but it's definitely much more in line with who I want to be. Thank you all again, I really appreciate all the help on here.

We had another MC appointment today, nothing new to report there. She's still pretty ineffective.

The good thing that happened today is that OW's BIG boss called me. He said that OW made a big production of requesting a shift change because it's "just too hard" working the same shift as H, and that "he's hostile around her, now. He just ignores her and won't talk to her anymore". She said "He used to be so fun and friendly, and now he doesn't call or come up to see them anymore except for when he has to." I guess OW was pretty dramatic about it, said the word "hostile" several times and implied that she was wiling to "sacrifice herself" so that he can come up and be friendly with the other co-workers if she's not there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The boss said he is trying to figure out how to adjust the schedule, but they're a 24-7 operation, and have never given anyone a "premium" week-days only (no nights) schedule, which is what she was requesting in order to never cross hours with H. He was calling me to confirm H's schedule and find out if he ever worked extra shifts on his nights off. He asked if I'd been listening to the phone calls, wanted to know if he could erase last weeks calls yet, and asked if the system was working ok for me (as in technically -- was I able to access the calls alright). He was very nice and polite.

This is the same person who told me not long ago that he was "not the moral police" and that he "didn't want to get involved".

I'll take good news where I can get it.

-Ami.

If she does get her shift changed ... which may take a while, and I'm not holding my breath ... but if it does happen, would you consider that to be enough for NC?

I guess I got pretty set on one of them having to totally quit ... but this might work? Is it enough?

Nope.

lol ... thanks Noodle. You always get straight to the point!

That was my gut reaction, too, but I can't really figure out why. I mean, they wouldn't be "working together" anymore this way, right?

I don't know if H knows about this yet or not, but when he hears about it, he'll think that this fulfills NC. (He thinks the current situation, with the phone call recordings, fulfills NC).

Sounds like he needs to have a working definition for what "No Contact" means to you. Maybe you do as well?

Why not let him in on the secret?

This isn't a poja..it's a boundary..right?

You don't have to work with him..you have to decide what you will accept.

Personally..I'd go with No..to mean zero, none, nada, zip..Contact..to mean seeing, talking to, hearing about, passing by, working with, breathing the same air, aware of what is going on in the other persons life and "other" to be defined as you become aware of a problem.


Yup..that'd pretty much cover it for me.

Think your H would agree?

You're right on, as usual. I am not sure what my definition of NC should be, and I might be grasping at straws, thinking this at least better than the current situation.

They work for separate companies, in separate buildings, and if this schedule change goes through, then they wouldn't ever have any reason for even "professional contact".

So my gut reaction of "still not good enough" doesn't sound very rational to me when I lay it all out like that. I can't quite get a grip on WHY it's still not good enough.


I am a little amused at the fact that she is making such a stink about it that her boss ended up calling me.



That's just it -- I think that this new schedule would fit all of those requirements. So I don't know what my hang-up still is. I suppose it would be possible for her to later, once my guard is down a little, try to change her schedule back, or pick up extra shifts or something when he's working. Maybe that's my big reservation? I can't put my thumb on it, but something just doesn't feel good.


Maybe I'm over-thinking it. Especially since it may never happen anyway.

That IS an interesting development. I think the boss's words spoke more than just about the situation. He's letting you know that the OW is really feeling the heat form this anti-exchange between them. She is feeling betrayed.

I agree with the other posters, in a perfect world, NC would mean absolutely no contact, no sight, sound, smell...you get the picture. But we don't live in a perfect world. I can tell you there have been posters on here that have gone to such measures where the A partners still remotely worked at the same place...it happens. I will also tell you it does put a stress on the M and one poster in particular wasn't truly out of the woods til the OW quit (3 years later).

What I've read from your story and from you there is one action I think you can do right now, (F?)WH is begging for, and will help enable recovery...and that is to TALK to your H.

What you have to say is important and valuable. He won't leave because you have some negative thoughts and feelings waiting to be expressed...this is part of intimacy...SHARE!!!

I agree. It's interesting that she seems to be pretty worked up.





Yes, this is a running theme for me recently. And I think a big part of our problem even before A. I'm trying hard to let go of fear and learn this ... not something I've ever been very skilled at before, but I'm learning.


He told me this morning that I need to check last night's phone calls because she had tried to get into a conversation with him about changing her schedule. I told him about the boss calling my yesterday, and he said "good, I wish she'd just leave, but that'll never happen".

That was pretty much the extent of the discussion. He's usually barely conscious by the time he gets home from work in the mornings, so it's not a time for big conversations.

I'll be able to listen to the call in privacy a little later this afternoon. I'm curious, but glad he told me about it.