Ugh .... Thanks, Noodle, but I was hoping we'd be done with withdrawl. Or get a free pass or something. Not sure why I thought we'd be special or different just because OW turned out to besuch a flake.
This is really not any fun.

I started reading "Love must be tough" last night -- I had skimmed it before, but thought it would be better for Plan B time ... but really got into it last night. It's surprising how much it's like Plan A, but really all the parts that we sometimes miss as BS's .... like being confident and capable and taking care of yourself. Think I'm just going to kep focusing on those things for a little while to get through.


Hurting --- surprisingly, SF is lower on his list than it is on mine. His big ones are domestic support and admiration. He loves to come home to a clean house, laundry done, dinner ready (or brought to him), etc. I like doing those things, (not necessarily the cleaning part, but having the house clean when he gets home), so I don't really want to use that to get back at him. But you're right that I think I need to pull back a little. Maybe that's the whole point of this exercise. I don't know....

Ami,

I don't know it seems like it is pretty one sided. I didn't mean to suggest you not meet his and after reading my post that is what I did.

What I meant to do was question if it was a two way street.

I would say the bell has been rung by the MC so now you can't unring it.

Maybe it will help.

My MC rang some bells and I am still living with the negative effects today.

Thanks, Hurting.

It feels pretty one-sided to me, too. Things are pretty uncomfortable around our house right now.

DD and I are leaving for the weekend tonight, and picking up DS from his camp on the way. H has to work,so the three of us are taking a little mini-vacation together. It will be nice to get out of the house for a little while. There are plenty of people around here still keeping tabs on H, so I'm not worried about him. I'm actualy looking forward to the break.

He probably is, too. A whole weekend that he won't be forced to bear the horrible torture of hugging me or telling me he loves me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Wow, just read on another thread that these posts can come up if my name is googled. Guess I better find something a little more anonymous.

Well have a nice mini vacation.

You know what I would do is lower my expectations for him right now.

The less you expect right now the easier it is for him to live up to your expectations.

For instance if you don't expect hugs or kisses for the next two weeks instead of being mad because he only did it once today you will be happy he did it once today. He exceeded your expectations.

Hard to do but it might help.

I changed my screen name because I read on another thread that the screen names show up on Google. Mine was a little too identifiable.


Anyway ....

Here's where I am, I would really like some of the experts to walk me through this a little and tell me if I'm on the right track. Because I think I am getting a little derailed.

Last week at MC, H talked about how inconvenient it was to have to show affection to me. The MC suggested that H initiate all affection for the next two weeks (we just finished one). I was not allowed to hug, kiss, touch, or say ILY first -- could only respond to him doing it.

The week has been terrible. He kissed me once and said "write that down so I get credit for it" ... and that's been sort of the tone for the whole week.

So, I'm trying to apply my newly-learning "own my own stuff" concepts to this situation.

Previously, I would have taken all this on myself -- I must not be worth hugging, kissing and showing affection to, or not important enough or not valuable enough or not have earned it. (Ugh, reading myself type that makes me so sad to realize how long I lived that way and actually believed things like that).

But now I know that's not true, and can pull out of those thoughts. I KNOW that I am a fantastic wife -- and I know that H knows it, too. I KNOW that I am valuable and smart and capable and loving and lots of other really good things. And I KNOW that I am certainly worthy of some affection.

I also know that I can't control his response to it, I don't "own" the fact that he finds it inconvenient or smothering or bothersome, or feels like he's "forced" to show afection. That has no bearing on my value or worth or anything else, because that's his to own and deal with. And I am not DJ'ing by assuming that's what he feels -- these are all things that he's said.

So now what? I've learned not to feel beaten up by his stuff, it doesn't make me feel inadequate or worthless anymore. Instead, I am angry (and this is the part where I'm getting off track and need some direction). I feel like I deserve better. I am not an inconvenience or a burden, or someoent to be tolerated. I am a huge asset to him and to our family, and I deserve to be cherished and adored -- and I KNOW people who feel that way about me. And if it's really THAT awful, and THAT much of a burden to have to spend 15 seconds giving me a hug and kiss and telling me that he loves me ... even when I've told him that is what I really need and want and makes me feel loved and secure, then Screw him. I don't need him. I can get myself pretty ticked off if I keep going in this vein...

So tell me where I'm getting this wrong, and point me towards the right direction. How do I not tolerate being treated as a burden, but also not "own" his statement/feeling that I AM just a burden? I think I'm entitled to affection -- but isn't entitlement one of the key WS words?

I'm just kind of all jumbled up right now and making a mess of the "owning my own" theory.

Please help!

-AmI.

I don't believe you're making a mess of anything, Ami...this is what growth is like...

Look, you know you are feeling rejection, anger and resentment. These are yours. Not wrong to feel them. You begin by saying you know you are not the cause of your H's choice not to be affectionate...and I think you're wondering if you know this, why do you feel it, anyway?

That old belief that you cause, control and cure others is pervasive...difficult to replace, takes time and a process...and I believe some of those feelings are coming from what you want in your marriage, not discerning, what you want right now.

Humans have a hard time getting the thought of what they want (or deserve) and adding in the time sequence...

Your H is in MC with you...you've had a rough time...and now you're changing your premise in life...for right now, your H doesn't want to be affectionate to you...

Would help if the MC asked him to state his whys...to come as close as he can to his truth...no judgment...since he didn't, you are left knowing only part of his truth...whatever his feelings, beliefs or thoughts...he does not want to give you affection right now.

Keep that right now close...because this is about him, not you. And it isn't forever...don't jump into the future...know that for right now, this may be your opportunity to learn to give yourself affection, approval, appreciation, admiration...and find out what is in physical affection of those very things...

I did. Withdrawal sucked...as much as the A, to me, because I expected anything after no contact to be so much better...and this no-affection response was crushing...same as you, I experienced those emotions...and then I got to where I knew my H was an affectionate man...he LOVES affection...whatever his reasons for withholding affection, well, they were his and they were temporary.

A's give us the idea our spouses have changed and we don't know them at all...the fog is stunning...we do know them...we didn't know all they were capable of, and I'm still learning that about my H to this day...I decided to trust my H's love of affection would return and we would fill each other's affection EN in time...

And in the mean time, I learned to hug myself, massage my own feet, lovingly; in fact, I rubbed my own hands, forearms...touched my hair and my face not for checking to see if I looked okay...but to tell myself I was okay.

This doesn't replace our mates...it does, however, stop the resentment, deserving, frustration, anger and entitlement which can build while we wait respectfully, in faith, for our spouses to grow in their own way...

The DJ's...believing the burden, the force, the nastiness in which you got your small kiss riled in you...drop those...please...for your own self-care...do not treat yourself as a burden, someone you barely tolerate...treat yourself lovingly, respectfully and affectionately...

You're worth it. See all the ways your affection EN is met...I was surprised how much it tied into a lot of my other ENs...

Use yourself as distraction...this exercise the MC gave...this assignment, sure skews your focus back onto him, doesn't it?

What you own is how you feel, what you think and what you believe...about you. Know your why's...each thing you find yourself looking to your H for...flip it for now, and look to see if you're doing it for you...

Acts of love go both ways...what you do for Self, you do for others.

LA

ok, first let me say that I am no expert in this area, because I never actually entered into recovery.
However
I am not going to let that stop me from handing out my two cents worth!

You are WORTHY of affection, no doubt about that. and some day you will have to establish that as one of your own emotional needs, that your H will have to respond to. Some day, you will need to start "taking" as well as receiving. But for right now, you need to put that stuff aside. Why?
Not because you have done anything wrong, or need to be punished. It is because your H is broken right now – sick – and needs healing. And putting your needs aside for a while will be helpful in his healing. You are doing this, for now, so that your H can heal and recover from this horrible mistake he has made. The goal, for both of you, is an even better M. For you, that means a marriage where you are freely given affection. And eventually he will have to step up to the plate and become the H you need him to be. If he doesn’t, then your anger/resentment will build, and neither of you will be happy. So please try to think of this all as temporary – like when someone is going through chemo therapy. If he were receiving chemo right now, he probably would not be feeling affectionate towards you either. But after treatment is over, he should be taking care of your EN’s.

I suspect your therapist may be onto something here – even though is stinks right now. Your H will start to miss the kisses and hugs too. Only this time he will have to make the first move, which is a good thing. I suspect you are reading way too much into his lack of affection, and his stupid comments about how it feels like too much trouble. The reality is that he feels like crap. Here he has a wife who is kind, affectionate, well liked by everyone, and he treated her like doo-doo. It is like kicking a puppy – he feels like some sort of monster. And when you are nice to him, kiss him, reach for his hand, he is reminded of how horrible his mistake was all over again. Like kicking a puppy, and then watching it limp on a broken leg every time it comes to the door to greet you. The puppy isn’t trying to remind him that he kicked it – you aren’t trying to make him feel bad, but he feels it anyway. Especially when he remembers that you didn’t deserve ANY of it. I can’t even begin to imagine how bad that he must feel. I don’t know how he sleeps at night. (for the record – my WxH never got to that point – he just went from OW#1 to OW#2, and that is when he became WxH)

I have watched my WxH go from bad, to worse. He did not make any effort to own his mistakes, and continues to spiral down ward. He is now married to OW#2, who is Bi-Polar, and completely out of control
Give your WH the chance to heal. It would be easier right now to walk away – to tell him to pack his stuff and get out, and then you could find someone to treat you better – someone who has not had a chance to betray you yet. But there are no guarantees that your next R would be any better than this one. At least your WH is putting some effort into the M. In time the wounds will start to heal, and he will be affectionate again.
And you will be part of that healing for him. If he stays stuck in this current status, then you will eventually be able to separate from him, and at least feel confident that you did everything you could.

LA - great post

Thanks, LA and WOF.

It takes me a while to process some of these posts, it's a big learning curve for me...

But here's what I think I'm hearing:

1) Patience. I might be trying to jump the gun or expect too much too soon. H isn't in a place yet where he will want to meet my needs. But the keyword is "yet". This is temporary.

2) I'm still probably hanging on to the control-cause-cure mindset without even realizing it, so some of my resentment is probably coming from knowing that I can't MAKE him want to be affectionate to me no matter what I do to "earn" it. And I haven't heard his real, deep reasons why he doesn't want it right now, so I'm still trying to judge them for myself ... still taking on his stuff and still trying to "fix" it.

3) Treat myself the way I want him to treat me ... find ways of meeting my own EN's, be affectionate and respectful and loving to myself ... and see what he IS doing (like going to MC) and point out to myself how that meets some of my EN's.


Is that a decent summary? Am I hearing things right? I have to admit that I'm arguing with all of these points in my head right now. I'm still trying to process all of this and make sense of it in the context of how I feel. So I want to be sure I'm at least working in the right direction.

Thanks so much for the help.

-AmI.

Hang in there Ami, vent your frustrations here and let your marriage start recovery. I didn't have MB but "Love must be tough" gave me strength (along with God of course) to stay afloat. You will survive this and be soooo much better because of it, just believe it. We've been there, some are still there and all of us just wish it never happened. But the realism is that life goes on... and so do we.

Oh & btw, I love the OW getting fired, that is sweet!

"Is that a decent summary? Am I hearing things right? I have to admit that I'm arguing with all of these points in my head right now."

So you know you're normal. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Expectations are pre-meditated resentments.

I left that out, I think.

Find out if some of what you're feeling is coming from your expectations...fair is fair...I meet his ENs, he meets mine...these base beliefs come from the age they were formed first...so you know, in your gorgeous adult head, humans are not engineered to be this way, all the time. Temporary...just for now...works.

"I'm still trying to process all of this and make sense of it in the context of how I feel. So I want to be sure I'm at least working in the right direction."

You working on you is always the right direction. You may still be hearing "you're the problem" from years of perceiving it that way...doesn't make you the problem...only what you control.

"Thanks so much for the help."

Thank you for reading, thinking about and opening up to another way to live...I'm in AnnieT's corner...I believe this was worth everything...and though I couldn't see it, I got there...you will, too.

One of the expectations I had was that it would be smooth sailing after NC was truly established...and resented that wasn't my reality...

LA

"Find out if some of what you're feeling is coming from your expectations...fair is fair...I meet his ENs, he meets mine...

I have some kind of circular confusion about this, I guess. I don't think I really expect payback or fairness in meeting EN's. I meet his because I like to do it, regardless of whether he meets mine or not. So I don't really feel an unfairness ... it's more just a drained, saddness. My "Love Bank" (I can't even type that without thinking what a corny concept it is, but it's still a great illustration) is at an incredible low, and there's nothing being put back in. Kind of two different issues, but so tied together that it's hard for me to separate.


One of the expectations I had was that it would be smooth sailing after NC was truly established...and resented that wasn't my reality...

YES! This is a big one. When OW got fired, I was SOOOOO certain that everything was going to come up rosy! He was so disgusted by her little tantrums at the end .... I was sure that there would be no withdrawl from her. So I definitely resent that this has still been so hard.



Anyway, we had a really good weekend/holiday. Lots of time together, lots of short, easy, but real talks that were SO nice and such a big change from anything we've done before. And he was starting to get a little more affectionate. Not much, but better, so I thanked him for that.

I'm still fighting with quite a bit of insecurity. I often feel suspicious about his motives for almost everything, and catch myself thinking "is he just doing this to set himself up better in case of a D?" I try to fight that off as soon as I recognize that I'm doing it, but it's hard.

It's not a good feeling. Any ideas on how I get past that? I know I can't "own" his motives, so how do I get past questioning them and not trusting them and judging them? Especially when I don't even REALLY know what they are?

Thanks!

H called me on my cell this morning as we were both leaving the house...

He said: "Hey! Date night tonight! G*d D*mn!"

Now, how can a girl resist such a romantic offer? I'm tellin' ya, it made my knees weak. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'm happy about the date, though. We can work on the delivery later. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-AmI

Hmmmmm .... can't edit the first post to change the title of this thread. Do I have too many pages? Is it a technical problem that I need to e-mail the mods about or am I just not doing something right?

Thanks!

-AmI

I don't know...because I haven't done it...could be? There's no edit button even on your last post...hmmm.

Now, back to something else entirely...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

"I'm still fighting with quite a bit of insecurity."

This is good...this is yours. You're aware of it and not projecting with DJs.

"I often feel suspicious about his motives for almost everything, and catch myself thinking "is he just doing this to set himself up better in case of a D?" I try to fight that off as soon as I recognize that I'm doing it, but it's hard."

Fighting self isn't kosher...because self doesn't fight. Fighting the shoulds in you isn't healthy, either...suggestion...

"I feel insecure. I just wondered if you decided to do blank because then you'd be in a better situation if we D'd. I'm working on these automatic fears."

You own and share it. What do you think? Stays authentic to self, doesn't demand anything of FWH, and is not a DJ.

"It's not a good feeling."

I believe insecurity is fear...well-known fear, automatic and routine fear, patted down on well-stomped ground in ourselves. Mostly groundless. A routinely not-good feeling. I have a theory that feelings is a whelp from self. Not owning our own feelings and sharing them somehow reinforces Self is wrong...and as we know...God made self...Self cannot be wrong.

"Any ideas on how I get past that?" Yes, how did you like it?

"I know I can't "own" his motives, so how do I get past questioning them and not trusting them and judging them?" Time. When you crave honesty and openness, BE honest nad open.

"Especially when I don't even REALLY know what they are?" His motives? Ask...surprise yourself. Own even your curiosity...no DJ in that, is there?

"Thanks!"

Welcome!

Now...rate me. (I'm feeling insecure tonight, so I can relate...it passes.)

LOL

(((AmIok)))

LA

Oh, LA! You're fabulous! It always takes me a lot of time, and several readings to process your posts, but that's because it's such a radical change for me. The way I've always wanted to live but never knew that I could -- or how to.

I think you're wonderful and very wise. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Maybe fighting wasn't the right word, but isn't it a DJ to assume he has questionable motives for doing something? So trying not to DJ, to me, feels like fighting my self. Can you expand a little bit on this fighting self concept, please? I'm trying to make some big changes in my self, and often feel like it's fighting the old to bring in the good. Maybe that contributes to the conflicted feelings I have?


This SOUNDS really good ... The problem I'm having right now is just getting my mouth open to say something like this. Fear, insecurity, whatever it is, it's practically paralyzing. I'll figure out what I'm feeling, what I want to say, how to say it, etc., but then just can't get it out of my mouth. This is really disappointing and frustrating to me, because I really, really want this kind of relationship -- where we can both be open and honest and really share, but I can't seem to manage to be that way myself. (Yet. Keep thinking -- this is temporary -- I'm getting there, still trying.) It's just sooo much harder than it sounds when I've been stuffing this stuff down for soooo long.


This so perfectly identifies how I've lived for sooooo long. Not sharing my feelings, thinking they must be wrong .... it's very uncomfortable and feels unnatural to try to break out of that life-long pattern.

-AmI.

Thank you, AmI for your post...and as you can see if you re-read it, you do have all these answers inside you already.

Difficult to go against our automatic emotions...fear of conflict, confrontation...sharing our thoughts, feelings and beliefs...and doing so, time and time again, breaks those automatic emotions and patterns.

I promise.

"Fear, insecurity, whatever it is, it's practically paralyzing." This is so well stated, I had to quote it. Yes. Feels this way exactly. Each time you speak, anyway, you really will break the paralysis, bit by bit. You for you. That's what it means.

Fighting yourself is in part just this--thinking your feelings, which are yours, valid--coming from you about you--are wrong. Change your thinking. Each time you have that voice saying, "You shouldn't feel that way...he was only...he only means...intends"--stop. Tell yourself, "I'm feeling ____." It's yours. Feel it. Then trace it back to the belief it comes from...the DJs to self are the beliefs we have...my H is out to hurt me...and see what belief is behind that one...earning love also means earning punishment...the one behind that...punishment protects us from hurt...and the one behind that...

Sounds long, time-consuming and arduous to some. It isn't...it is being focused and calm, and doing it the first few times may take a bit...then your brain understands you want to trace back...and helps you to do so.

These were just suggestions of your beliefs...not telling you what you believe...would love to know.

DJs have payoff's...they give us a feeling of false power, false knowledge and can be protecting or self-bashing. You're right not to DJ anyone's intentions or motives...ask. Asking is hard. DJs are easy.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yes, fight the DJs...do so by knowing the payoffs you have when you do, and realizing they can't compare to the payoff of honesty and openness. They really can't. I guess I had the image of you "fighting off" these DJs by bashing yourself...telling yourself you're not wrong to assume, like kicking self (who didn't assume, your fear did), reinforcing you're always wrong inside.

Feel relief that you don't know what he's thinking or why he says what he does...that's his to say, to fight his own paralysis and speak...You pointed out a really subtle difference...and a penchant I have for trying to get between others and their selves to protect selves...which is all me.

When you have a thought contrary to what you now what to think, bless it and let it go. "No, that's not how I think." No fighting, really...acknowledge and dismiss.

Any clearer?

Breaking life-long patterns is a process...knowing why you had chosen those patterns in the first place, helps. You're an adult human..."Did I protect myself from anything through DJs? Did I stop something bad from happening, even one time?"

Talk to your fear and listen...don't act from it.

LA

I found this "honesty assignment" that really, realy struck a chord with me.

http://symcinc.com/getinformed/articles/hassignment.html

I e-mailed it to H to see if he'll do it with me.
Just learning to open my mouth, say the words, be honest and open about my feelings, would make such a HUGE difference for me. I have such a hard time doing that, even when they aren't super controversial or negative or going to start an argument ... I think it's a combination of control and fear and maybe even some manipulation. If I have the information and don't share it, then I have more control, and he can't use it against me. I can share just what I want, or what I think will "make" him feel what I want him to feel, and I can avoid "making" him angry or whatever. And I can be mad at him for not reading my mind and not automaticaly knowing how I feel.

Wow, I can't believe I've lived this way for so long.... I can't even explain what a radical change this is for me. This is going to be hard work!!

AmI, i wanted to let you know that I printed the assignment, but when I got to the word list, I fell in love.

guess, I'm a sucker for charts? LOL

I would be so free if I could do this, mine's mostly fear, fear of rejection, and intimacy (letting someone get close).