You're relationship with your dad seems like mine! My dad's not really a talker, communicator. He gets along better with DH then me. I'm okay with that. I also know that if I wan to tlak to my dad, I have to pick things like: his work, engines, carpentry, etc. My parents D'ed when I was three. I was two when dad started teaching me tools, when I visited I worked with him on whatever project he had. He was never one to "show" affection, but I anyways knew/know he loved me. He would get mad occassional, like the time he said not to use his fishing pole, and I did, and I birdnested the everliving out of it. I stayed out of his way the rest of the day. One time, I have chicken pox for Mardi Gras, well, he use to shrimp for a living at one time. I was really disappointed about missing the parades, caughting all of the beads, it was so exciting. Dad decided to park the boat under a bridge and we would use nets to get anything out of the water that didn't land in the boat. That's one of the great memories I have of my dad. I was eight or nine at the time.

We don't talk often at all, maybe two or three times a year, maybe! He's three hours away. He's just uncomfortable with communication, great "silent" guy! We may not talk but I have more love for him then anyone in the world, and I barely know "him." He's a mystery to me, but I understand him!

What I'm trying to say is he was reaching out to you! He knows his faults, but he got the courage to try, and that's half the battle. Make it "safe" for him to do this again, God's got a great way of doing things and unless we leave that door open, we wouldn't find out what it is. What was he like as your dad, you think about that for yourself?

Hasn't LA fussed you for those expectations? Having them will kill your spirit!

My dad is a GREAT talker ... he's the ultimate salesman. Everyone's best friend, life of the party, could get a potato into a lively conversation if he wanted. Once, he was at some convention, and about 30 people all went out to dinner together. The next day, a friend of his was talking to several of the people who went to the dinner, and asked them what they had done the night before -- every single one of them answered "I went to dinner with (AmI's Dad)." Not "we all went to dinner togther", or a "big group of us went out" or even any mention of anyone else being there.

He's just that good at making people feel like they are the center of the universe. When you're around him, you're a princess, a star, the most amazing person in the world. But he's very focused on what's right in front of him, so if you're not in his face, he forgets you exist.

I learned about expectations of him a couple of years ago, that's why it doesn't kill me anymore when he doesn't respond to me. It's also why we haven't spoken in so long, but I'm ok with it.

I was happy to get the e-mail, and plan to respond in a safe, happy, easy way. I am impressed with his acknowledgement that he needs to spend more time on what's important. Just saying that is a big difference for him!

Oh, okay! I thought this was troubling to you! Sorry, fowl ball!

He didn't happen to say what he was going to do about this, words are just words!

So, good ole' dad's got refrigerator blindness! I thought that just happened in my house! You know, it's not in front of you, it's not there! LOL

Well, our camping trip did not go well. I did not have any downtime to do any reading, so I am pretty sure there were better ways to handle this, but I did the best I could. And at least did speak when it was hard, hard, hard to do.

H was great (put on a great show) when there were other people around, like his family. But once we were on the ATV and waiting on the rest of the group to catch up. So I asked him about that honesty assignment that I'd sent to him. He said "we communicate just fine". I tried listen and repeat "So, you think that we're already effective at comunicating with each other?" He got angry. "Don't *** talk to me like I'm two *** years old." I told him I didn't intend to talk down to him and apologized for that, and that I just wanted to be sure that I really heard what he was saying. He said "What do you want me to tell you? It's a nice day, it's warm outside .... there, there's two of my six things." I said "Thanks, it's nice to hear the good things, too. Yeah, it is really nice out here" .... and started talking abou the trees and scenery and nothingness .. just trying to change the subject to something light-hearted and non-controversial. When the rest of the group started catching up he just growled really low at me "Now can we shut the **** up about all of this***? I'm sick of hearing your (big string of explatives)." I said "I feel degraded, disrespected and angry about being cursed at." He just gunned the ATV and asked if I was coming or not (no option, all the ATV's were full, and we were miles from camp).

I was FURIOUS!!! And it just kept simmering the rest of the day. He was walking around playing like everything was daisy's, putting on a good show for the whole family. After dinner, and when everyone was winding up and going to bed, H said he'd get the kids tucked in and taken care of, and I went to my mom's camper with my sister and had a drink with her and was telling her about our confrontation. I was at a complete melt-down point, sobbing and angry and venting.

Well, H apparently didn't put DD to bed, and she came and sat below the window listening. Crap. Definitely not good stuff for her to hear. Then H realized he hadn't put her to bed, and went to her tent to tuck her in, and when she wasn't there, found her under the window, listening, and he listened, too. My sister's boyfriend came in at that point to let us know we had an audience outside. H took DD to our camper to sleep. I stayed where I was talking to my sister -- there's no way I could have been around H at that point, I was a mess. A couple of hours later, I had finally calmed down, and H came looking for me, and Sister's boyfriend came looking for her. So I went back to our camper with H to try to sleep. DD was in the second bed (too tiny for more than one person), so I slept with H, although I really didn't want to. It was a terrible night. I said we need to talk, and he said "tomorrow". I think I slept all of an hour, off and on, through the night. Every time I'd toss and turn, he'd say "(AmI), knock this off and get some sleep."

The next day we were pretty distant. Just polite, like you'd be with a co-worker, to get things done around the camp and get everything packed up, then unpacked and cleaned up at home. Never did find time to "talk" that day, either.

Then today, we were switching vehicles around, so he dropped me off at work. I said "Can we please take an hour or so tonight?" He said "Oh, ****. I guess so..." (Imagine the tone of a teenager who's just been asked to clean his room for the 50th time).

I'm not sure if he'll really be around for that hour to talk, or if it will get shoved under the carpet some more.

I will do everything I can to make it happen.
I'm exhausted. Burned out.


My current plan -- and I'd REALLY appreciate any input here -- is to go with a sort of modified "Love must be tough" route. Tell him that I love him, that we make a really great team together and that we could have an incredible, happy, loving marriage. But that I can't force him to want that with me, can't -- and wouldn't want to -- force him to stay with me. That we both deserve better than how we're living right now. That I'd like that better life to be with him, but that I can't do that on my own. And he is free to leave if he wants to. I will be hurt and sad, but I won't beg or cause any problems for him trying to get him back. It's his choice, and I hope that he will stay and commit to working on the marriage with me, but I'll also be ok if he doesn't.


Then if he decides to leave, I'll go straight to Plan B.

This is earlier than I intendd. I wanted to stick it out until September 1 when it would have more of an impact on him with the kids. But I'm just soooooooo tired of this. I really don't think that I can make it any longer.


I'm so incredibly tired. I need lots of input and advice, please.

Help!

-Ami.

I do better reading than from scratch, so here's what I'm thinking of reading to him tonight. Please, Please, ANY input or coments would be appreciated.

Thanks.


Wow, this has been a pretty rough year so far. We’ve been through some really awful moments. Through all of it, though, I have always loved you, with all of my heart. When we got married, I thought we were invincible and could conquer the world together; that we’d grow old and gray together with the world at our feet. I never for a second thought that we might fall apart. So it’s been an intense shock to see our relationship unravel and face the possibility of having to live my life without you.

I’ve done some intense soul-searching, though, and I realize that I’ve been trying to hold onto you against your will. I thought that if only I was a good enough wife and mom, loved you enough, and made you happy enough, then you would want to stay with me; you would have to love me because I had earned it. But now I’ve realized how manipulative and degrading that view is. To both of us. A good, happy, strong marriage just can’t be that way. And I’m no longer willing to settle for anything less than a good, happy, strong, loving, faithful marriage to my best friend.

When I look back, I remember that you married me of your own free choice, because you wanted me, not because I manipulated you or forced you or bribed you or begged or anything else. And now I realize that staying with me has to be of your own free choice, as well. I can no more force you, bribe you, beg you or manipulate you to stay now than I could have forced you to marry me back then.

So you are free to go. And if that’s what you want, then I will accept your decision.

I admit that it will be painful, but this entire experience has been painful. I also admit that what I really want is for YOU to be the best friend that I build an amazing life and marriage with. I still believe that we can learn and grow so much from all that we’ve been through and that the two of us, together, can have such an incredible life and future. But I only want that if you are there by your own choice. I won’t try to hold onto you anymore, I’ve let go. And you don’t have to worry about me in making your choice. I will make it; I’ll be ok, either way. God’s been there for me through all of this, and He’ll go forward with me, too.

Bumping, please help.

With just over 1 mo NC I have a hard time saying just how to proceed. He needs to cut the cursing and disrespectful attitude, can you get him to agree to stop that behaviour and then you give it some more time?

Nothing will be resolved very quickly... all doesnt have to end tonight. Can you try for a baby-step tonight? Please be careful! - Dru

AmI...

You were in my thoughts...I really did think I posted to you...

Now, you hid a lot of stuff in your post...you didn't say, "I am angry because of this...this...and this..." More implication than statement.

You're working on stating...

So...your H DJ'd and was verbally abusive this weekend...and your boundary enforcements...were where?

What's this whole don't speak in front of others (both of your families) and your view of him putting on a show for others? Where's YOUR stuff, AmI? Your honesty, for self?

Show me you, AmI...you are equally powerful, whole and complete...you are separate from your H...he can't make you NOT enforce your boundaries...he can't keep you from doing anything, feeling anything, believing anything, thinking anything or STATING anything.

Can he?

You breathing deep, relaxing breaths?

Are you looped-thinking and shuddering?

Are you wondering who will protect you...from you?

C'mon triathlete...if you were your own daughter, what you would tell you?

LA

(((((AmI)))))

I don't believe that you deserve the abuse. Is there any time when he's nice to you? Do you ever see the really person behind the mask?

If you feel that this is something that you have to do then, I'm behind you and will support you! I have to say that I get some of this too, but not to the extend that I've read on your thread. I don't feel that I have the words that you need, I would prefer to just let you know that I think you are moving in the right direction for self and your family. I know it's earlier that you would like but I hear LA saying something about wanting what we want, when we want it, and how we want it. It never works that way. God has a plan and you're in his design!

((((AmI))))

I'll be around!

AmI...about what you're planning on reading...

"I’ve done some intense soul-searching, though, and I realize that I’ve been trying to hold onto you against your will."

This is a DJ...in fact, I consider this a P/A statement...because you assume it is against his will AND you are stating you believe you can control him and he is helpless.

When I look back, I remember that you married me of your own free choice, because you wanted me, not because I manipulated you or forced you or bribed you or begged or anything else. And now I realize that staying with me has to be of your own free choice,"

Every minute he has been in your life is from his own, free choice. Same for you. So the "has to be of your" is rather a contradiction, a double message, don't you think?

So you are free to go."

Huge DJ. Can you see where it contradicts what you just acknowledged as your truth? As if you have the power to free him? Is this your real truth, or your pain? Is this you being self-deceptive? Could this be, "I am choosing to no longer love you. I want you to leave the house."

Be HONEST with yourself and your partner, AmI. As you said, you haven't for a long time...so this is new and needs to be practiced. I'm not bashing you...I'm challenging you to be your most honest to yourself and to us.

"And if that’s what you want, then I will accept your decision." Again, is this truth or fantasy?

"I admit that it will be painful," To whom?

"but this entire experience has been painful."

To whom?

"I also admit that what I really want is for YOU to be the best friend that I build an amazing life and marriage with. I still believe that we can learn and grow so much from all that we’ve been through and that the two of us, together, can have such an incredible life and future. But"

You erase your statement with that BUT and then you put a condition on the reality of HIS choice (which is inviolate regardless of what you believe, as is yours) with: "I only want that if you are there by your own choice."

"I won’t try to hold onto you anymore," Here is where you betray yourself.

"I’ve let go. And you don’t have to worry about me in making your choice."

Another big ol' DJ...I believe you're attempting to demonstrate your pain instead of state it.

"I will make it; I’ll be ok, either way. God’s been there for me through all of this, and He’ll go forward with me, too."

LA

I was, and am, angry because every time I take a step and try to communicate, and try to build better, he comes in with a steamroller. I was furious that he could talk to me that way and be so disresepctful and hurtful over something that really didn't have any controversy behind it. We have both agreed before that we lack comunication skills. We've both said we'd like to find some tools to learn them. So I find one, present it, and get this vicious bite. How do I feel safe in presenting important, or conflicting feelings to him if this is the reaction I get for opening my mouth?

That's why I'm angry. And tired. And confused. These bites are starting to hurt too much and I'm bleeding out. I cannot figure out why, why, I should choose to continue to try to pet the dog.


My boundary enforcements ... I have no idea. I at least told him how it made me feel, and that's new and hard to do. I don't know what I could have done -- maybe walked the 8 miles back to camp? I cried and melted down to my sister. And ended up causing a whole new set of problems.

In front of family, he doesn't curse at me. He talks and acts like things are great. He was telling them how we were talking about the beautiful scenery on our ride, but left out the part where he told me to "shut the *** up ... he was tired of hearing **** (me talk)."

So that's what I mean by putting on a show in front of family.




No, I think I'm the one not enforcing boundaries, I just don't know how to do it. I don't know how to not allow his cursing at me. I have great fear when I openmy mouth to state anything, because it's very likely that I'll get bitten for it. So it's me stopping me, but how do I stop that???


Trying to...
Yes.
Yes.
That she deserves to be treated better.

Much of this comes from Dobson's book, "Love must be tough". I can see your points. I guess I'm trying to tell him what I've learned, though. I've learned that it's his choice, and that I'm not responsible for it. That I could be the most perfect, amazing person in the world, and that it wouldn't "make" him want to stay with me, or be decent to me. I'm trying to say that I finally realized that I can't "make" him do anything, and that his choice is not my responsibility.


No, I don't have the power to free him. I think, again, this is saying I realize that ... that his choice is his, and not about whether I am "good enough".

My real truthful feeling is that I want better than this. I hope it's with him, but, honestly, I'm hurt enough now that it's ok if it's not with him. Even alone would be better than this.


this is truth ... but maybe stated wrong ... I would much rather him walk away than for either of us to continue to live like this.

To me!


Why is this betraying myself (not arguing, just honestly don't understand)? Am I giving up too soon? Isn't thw whole point that there is nothing I can do to hold on to him, that it's his choice to stay?



I think I'm still speaking a lot out of pain, and being reactive. I'm havinga hard time seeing what my power and strengthis in any of this, other than my power to let go and stop taking responsibility for his choices.

I think it might be a good idea to completely back off on all the relationship talk. Wait until you're back in MC again.

In the meantime, it's probably a good idea like Ark said to have the house nice and neat, dinner ready and waiting and everything in order when he gets home. But.... since you're obviously very upset, I would leave a note and take off until you know he'll be asleep. Go hang out at a coffee shop or a book shop that stays open late -- or even a 24 hour store if you have to. In the note, I'd say that you want to hold off on any relationship talk until you're back in counseling, BUT... you are very hurt from the things he said to you -- I'd spell them out verbatim so he can see what he said. Tell him you will be home after you have a little time to yourself.

And from now on, if he if he abusive to you, tell him you will NOT be spoken to that way very calmly and firmly and turn around and walk away. And yes, you should not have gotten back on the ATV with him -- even you had to walk back. Someone would have ridden back and dropped the other person off and come back and gotten you. You have to draw a line in the sand about being spoken to that way. You don't have to be nasty and LB, you just have to clearly state that you will not allow it and then you have to back it up by action.

Has he always acted this way? Was he ever kind to you?

We can all tell on this forum that you are a bright and special woman. You are going to come through this all even better -- more sure of yourself and more grounded -- with or without him.

Take care of yourself.

Would you say that you're very angry that when you do speak, you get abused? Takes a lot for you to speak...and then he lobs an emotional grenade?

"I was, and am, angry because every time I take a step and try to communicate, and try to build better, he comes in with a steamroller. I was furious that he could talk to me that way and be so disresepctful and hurtful over something that really didn't have any controversy behind it."

Let's get this straight...he can talk to you abusively...he has that choice...you cannot control it...whether you believe it was controversial or not, it is INTOLERABLE. That's why we have boundaries. Why we enforce them.

Because we can, others can...abuse.

I wanted to really clarify that so there wasn't a belief in you that says, "Had it been something huge, then I would have deserved it." Did I achieve that?

"We have both agreed before that we lack comunication skills. We've both said we'd like to find some tools to learn them. So I find one, present it, and get this vicious bite."

Sounds like you felt blindsided...agree, agree...CHOMP.

You know more about your H...this isn't his first CHOMP. Tell me why you believed pre-A it was okay...because this is important...you can't set a boundary and then move it around based on content or context.

"How do I feel safe in presenting important, or conflicting feelings to him if this is the reaction I get for opening my mouth?" You can't feel safe. You can present, anyway.

He is not a pet dog...he is an adult human choosing to abuse.

Call him on it. "Stop. That's abusive." If he continues, your progressive boundary enforcement continues. You say, "Stop. I will get off this ATV and ask for someone to switch with me to get me back to camp. I will state that I am being verbally abused by my H and am enforcing a boundary."

Then you have to do it if he continues. Do you understand, AmI? You do not betray yourself...you do not say, "I have no other way." If you feel back into a corner, then say, "I feel cornered. Attacked. Slammed. Biten."

If you can't say that because you're choked up...say, "Ouch!"

Stop choosing to own what isn't yours. Be in your truth...only way to enforce a boundary...know he is choosing to do this, react this way...if he had stopped the abuse with the first calling him on it, listen and repeat. "Now is not the time to discuss this. I feel trapped because the first time we're alone, you spring this on me." (You can tell I'm making this up because I do not believe he's near this level.)

"I hear you do not want to discuss this, that you feel trapped and ambushed. Are you feeling defensive? Controlled?"

Steady, calm and full-steam ahead.

Next belief...you did not cause a whole new set of problems...believing this may give you a payoff of feeling powerful in a negative way...living this truth will be more damaging. Your DD overheard, and your H chose to overhear instead of protecting your DD...that is not within your power. If you participate in the blame game, you won't get anywhere, will you? What happened, happened. The more you understand boundaries, the better your life will be, I promise. Your real power within reality, not the fantasy of you being the cause of more stuff...

Can you see how you have no control over what he does to you as he does it? You have the power in how you choose to act...so he does it once...and then the predeteremined progressive boundary enforcements kick in...and you have to do that so you don't betray yourself. He chooses...you choose. Not tit for tat...intolerable...do not tolerate. Disrespect him and YOU.

When you know that what he spews is his...his conscious choice, with intent to harm...then you can disengage and NOT be harmed...does not mean stay present for it...says, oh...I didn't make him abuse me...I do not have to take the punishment...the abuse....oh...here's what I practiced...these boundary enforcements.

When you tell your DD "Don't let that boy talk to you like that" do you think it will have any impact if that's how she heard her Dad treat her Mom? Show your daughter how to be a woman, live in respect, for self and others...show her your strength. Know your fear, hold it, and enforce boundaries anyway.

You can do this, AmI...you are not helpless, powerless or unworthy. You are his equal. "I know you chose to respond abusively."

"I guess I'm trying to tell him what I've learned, though."

Can you tell the difference between sharing and educating? That isn't a slam...it's a tough call. I found I tried to educate my H in our marriage on ME...educate him about me...instead of share myself.

"I've learned that it's his choice, and that I'm not responsible for it. That I could be the most perfect, amazing person in the world, and that it wouldn't "make" him want to stay with me, or be decent to me. I'm trying to say that I finally realized that I can't "make" him do anything, and that his choice is not my responsibility."

I know you believe this now...it is a core belief...has many tendrils...earlier in this post I pointed out a slide-back...catching all of these doesn't make you perfect...increases your awareness, trains your ear...knowing inside you exactly what you stated is the most important part of changing your life...not HIM knowing it.

Working your way to your highest truth...

"My real truthful feeling is that I want better than this."

Now there's a O&H statement. "I hope it's with him, but, honestly, I'm hurt enough now that it's ok if it's not with him. Even alone would be better than this." There's more of them. No DJs...great truth. Yours.

"this is truth ... but maybe stated wrong ... I would much rather him walk away than for either of us to continue to live like this." You have no control over him staying or walking away...that's his choice...not in your domain...what you will accept or won't is within your domain...that's why I wanted to show you a fantasy statement...see...not the words...to see how we speak in our heads which negates our new belief we have no control over others...these insiduous statements, whether just thought or in print, teach us we didn't change our belief.

That's where I'm going...to change a belief is a process when it is really a core belief...tendrils...I'm showing you the words matter because their meaning to our Self are vital to get that belief changed...it tells Self, we're living under new rules...that we've chosen...no more self-betrayal.

About the painful statements..."To me!"...see the implied way of going about communicating? "I will feel a lot of pain from loss. I feel it already." That's your truth...direct from the source...I'm encouraging you to go simple, direct and with awareness...so you won't show respect, you'll live respectfully. To you and to others.

I know I'm tough...I'm gonna challenge you because you are an amazing person. You truly are. You are doing this.

Here is my clarification on self-betrayal:

""I won’t try to hold onto you anymore," Here is where you betray yourself."

"Why is this betraying myself (not arguing, just honestly don't understand)?"

You have a new belief...you cannot hold, confine, imprison, free, deliver, cause or control another human being...by saying this, you betray your new belief. You are saying you will not hold him...

"Am I giving up too soon? Isn't thw whole point that there is nothing I can do to hold on to him, that it's his choice to stay?" That is the point...I don't want you to step over it with statements with the opposite meaning; confusing. You want to demonstrate your new belief, not teach it...you want to live by it.

Nothing in your letter says a thing about you giving up...too soon or not...it talks about him, his choices, and your reactions to his choices. I don't see your choices.

"I think I'm still speaking a lot out of pain, and being reactive. I'm havinga hard time seeing what my power and strengthis in any of this, other than my power to let go and stop taking responsibility for his choices."

I believe you. CHOMPS hurt, and they are cumulative...you experience the pain from every other chomp from your entire life...even long before your H...in his abuse. You do. It goes all over you...your cells remember, react...shaken up is truly shaken up...I don't recommend taking action, communicating until you settle yourself...I recommend doing exactly what you are doing right this minute...believing your belief, not reacting, thinking about your words, your actions...divining self right now. Get to all those owies (yeah, I'm feeling that hurt and I'm a kid, too)...

Know what settles self? Attention to self...exactly what you're doing...looking inside at the pain, not outside...that's centering self. Breathe and watch your thoughts, the images, and listen to self.

In your corner, AmI...t-shirt and all...don't make me print bumperstickers, 'k?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

((((AmI))))

LA

Ami,

Are you ok? Please check in and let us know that you're all right.

Yes, I'm ok ... just processing.
No new developments, I'll update in the next few days.

Thanks for checking in on me.

And thanks to all for the input and helping me keep trying to clear some of these cobwebs in my head.

Processing your process...good to know.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There's a cool thread called "What is the payoff for hanging onto resentment"...

That's me sharing with you.

(((AmI)))

LA

We did not talk on Monday night. I made dinner, cleaned a little, then we watched TV after the kids went to bed.

We are just sort of getting along right now -- roommates. No recent cursing at me, occasionally talking about the weather, the lawn, the kids' schedule and things like that. He's very distant. Had DS call me today to make schedule arrangements (we're down to sharing a vehicle because of car problems). He's waffling now on a vacation that we promised the kids in August -- just shrugs when I ask if he wants me to go ahead and make reservations and ask about his schedule and time off. I haven't made statements about any of my feelings to him at all.

MC is on Friday. He worked last night, and works every night until then, so our contact with each other will be minimal -- trading off the car and kids. I'm getting things done at the house while he's at work, so at least he comes home to a clean house.

I'm sad and tired. I'm trying to prepare for the MC appointment, but I really don't know what to prepare for ... showdown, more cold shoulder, fizzle ... ?

Trying to remember and hold on to all the things I've been learning. My hope for this marriage is fading very, very fast. Three months ago, I never would have believed that it wouldn't be the A that dismantled things....

Is "recovery" really so elusive???????

Maybe I'll just plan the vacation anyway for the kids and I and he can either come or stay home if he wants to.

I just dropped H off at work so I could have the car tonight.

He was so cold and distant. Angry about some expensive house repairs that it looks like we're going to have to make, but talking about it very calmly.

A whole new iciness in the air since this weekend.

And I still care. And it still hurts. And I still want to save this marriage, I still want him back, but am not really sure why.

Fear, maybe ... of being alone. Of losing the dreams that I had for our future. Of losing my kids.

All that, plus I still love him.
Why? Why is it so hard to just let go?


I've got to quit obsessing about these things, and get back to what I can control. What's mine to own. I can't do anything about him being cold and distant ... I can do things about me. I can keep working on being the best me I can be.


Still trying to steel myself up for MC on Friday. I'm very fearful of what might happen there.