Wow. LA ....

I consider you so wise and wonderful that I sometimes forget you are also real. That you still learn and own, share, and examine in your real life, with real experiences and disappointment and rocks to the stomach, too.

Thanks for the reminder that you're real and have your own practicing and learning to do. I'm very sorry that you had to go through that this morning, I wish I could be as helpful to you as you've been to me. I've learned so much from you and really appreciate you.

Even more now that I've realized you're not just a very wise pixie who lives in my computer and is revealing the secrets of life to me. I may not get such funny looks anymore when I tell people about you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

(((((hugs)))))

-AmI.

ROFLMAO...if I were pixie, would I have a magic wand? That I could...

BEAT PEOPLE WITH???

LOL

I like being real...and being here with you, AmI. I think honesty tends to answer honesty...that upward spiral...just as deceit tends to answer deceit...the downward one...

I'm not sorry about this morning...what is, really is...and all I have control over is how I handle myself...to stay respectful, to state and own...and not hide from possible conflict. Makes me dust off old boundaries...see just my part...and use up some gray matter in enforcing them...and some courage.

You all help me be courageous...because you are.

LA

HA!!

I didn't think that pixies beat people with their wands ... maybe just when we're exceptionally dense! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Soooooo .... since we're (I'm) learning about boundaries here, care to share how you enforced yours after the most recent off-roading by your H? I'd love to hear of an IRL example by someone who is much more skilled than I am....

Last night, my H sent me three e-mails. Three! And two of them were very long.

It's been a very, very long time since he sent me an e-mail, or even responded to one of mine.

We also went to lunch today, with the kids. It was nice.


Tomorrow is our next MC appointment. I don't have the feeling of dread that I had going into the last one. I think it will be good, I'm reminding myself of all the important things --- like the fact that he's still going to MC at all.

I found an exercise in one of my books that is intended to help re-build positive feelings. I showed him the paragraphs and asked him to read it when he had some time. I'll ask him about it tomorrow. I will also ask him about the no backbone thing.


The kids and I are going out of town for a 60th wedding anniversary party this weekend. H has to work tons of hours, so it will be good for us to get out of the house and out of his hair.

The couple are very long-time friends of my family. They were kind of like pseudo-parents to my parents when my sister and I were very young (all of the real grandparents lived in other states). They owned a boat together, we used to go on vacations together and have dinner at each other's houses all the time. I remember thinking how special their ice was because it was square (from an ice tray, and we had an ice maker), and sometimes it was even round (from a bag of ice). Isn't it funny what kids can be amazed by?

Anyway, they are the sweetest, most loving people. It has been way too long since I've seen them, and I'm very excited to get to go.

This is their 60th anniversary, and they only knew each other ONE WEEK before they got married! Can you imagine??? Wish I knew all their secrets.

I'll update after MC tomorrow.


LA, I'm still thiking through the love as a choice things. And I'm also still interested in hearing your example of applying boundaries.


-AmI

H got called in on a big case today, so just me going to MC.

No idea what to talk about with her this time. I don't really have anything to bring up just with her. I am tempted to just not go. If it wasn't such last-minute notice, I would have caledto cancel or reschedule.

Sigh.

I was writing to you last night when DH came home...and the post went away...

I shared my boundary issue on the P/A thread to SHMI...wanted you to see it because as it turns out...no boundary needed to be enforced.

That's different! Well, that's the way I saw it...if you'd take a look at that post, then maybe I could see it differently.

My boundary was honesty...and I made sure I was honest. And respectful.

How does a huge event turn into such a non-event and be huge in a wholly different way? Eliminating DJs...and I was bombarded with them as I triggered...as each came, I heard, blessed it and said, "That's not what I want."

Wow.

I LIKE that you got MC to yourself...you can ask your questions, call her on her stuff...tell her how you felt, though last session didn't replay the charming distraction thingie...what you are learning, expecting, respecting...all that stuff.

You have LOTS to say, AmI...hey, could that be another stop on your O&H path? If you tell yourself you have nothing to share...when you are a percolating thought machine (as humans are)...does that not even hit your honesty radar? Maybe that statement, that belief, is what doesn't trip the alarm?

Hmmm.

I love how you remembered the ice...and yes, that inner child is important to us as adults...to see today differently than any other day that has come before...tap into that, 'k? Keep that image close this weekend...and yes, I built up a whole family...mothers, grandparents, aunts and uncles...out of strangers...so I do know about being family and not really family...

You sound solid, AmI...how are you feeling?

LA

Thanks, LA, I will go read over there. You have definitely piqued my curiosity. But mostly, I want to see how the pro's handle real-life things that seem to throw me for a complete loop. And I definitely consider you a pro! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


MC today was alright. I need to write it all out again like I did the last one, that really helped me process everything.

For now, though, here's the short version.

She asked how things have been, asked me what I had thought I heard him say last time. She said she thought I had done a great job last time of speaking up and saying what I thought. She said she liked the "love is a choice" thing and asked me to expand on it some more, what was my choice, why was I making that choice, etc. I told her all the same things I've posted here before.

I said that I was still trying to "get" the no backbone thing. She said that she thought he'd been pretty clear that the no backbone thing was because I was still with him after the A. That if I won't leave him after an A, then what else could he do to me, he could walk all over me if he wanted to.

I said I hadn't heard him say that. That I had sort of thought that might be it, but that he didn't say it, and I'm working hard on learning not to make assumptions about what people are feeling or thinking.

She said he needs to hear the choice stuff -- that I was making the choice to love and to keep my commitment and my promise, and here were my reasons, etc. She said I had done a good job and been very clear about it last time, but that I needed to keep saying it, because he is not hearing it.

She thinks he's so convinced that the A is unforgivable that he's giving up. That he was taking my lovely meltdown on the camping trip as proof that I would never be able to recover from the A, that we could never get back the trust and love, and that I was just clinging on out of desperation even though we'd never be able to have a good relationship again.

I said (again) that he hadn't said any of that and that it was assuming what he was thinking again. She went on to give specific statements that he'd made, at several various times, and put them together to suport what she was thinking. She also said it's good not to make the assumptions and my assignment this week is to ask him, and to say the stuff about choices again.

She also said that the falling out of love for the last year coments taht he made last time totally contradicted other things that he's said in MC, and that she thought it was an excuse to kind of make the A, and giving up now, more acceptable to him.

She said I sounded strong and that she thought I was doing a great job and made a lot of progress. She said I needed to keep learning to open my mouth and talk to H.

There were some other things, but I'm out of time right now. I will have to update more later.


-AmI.

Just checking in! Sounds like you have a good MC session!

Have you picked out your costume yet? And since I have too wear the big "R", can it be purple at least? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It's my favorite color! And I do like being a brunet, so I would like to keep my hair color to! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Look forward to hearing more, you have made some great improvement since we first starting talking!

Oh, I've decided that LA is my "mighty mouse," <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> LOL, ...

you know always "saving the day!" Think she'd look cute with the ears and the cape? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

RMFAO

:::my ears perk up and wiggle like radars:::

:::I put my tiny paw to the side of my head like a wave dish and look quizzical:::

What's that I hear?

Here I come to save the daaaaaayyyyy!!!

My FAVORITE superhero, Rin...great call!

Thank you...and I'm little and I squeak.

Heehee.

I know I posted to you today while you were at MC...bringing up the whole Monday night debacle would have been great...remember it...make notes and keep them in your purse.

I like the way you assert yourself, AmI...what you believe, you believe...good job. I will support your MC in you asking H if what he means by backbone is that you did not leave him for having an A...is that correct (kinda statement)...

And I will remind you through the tough times...he is there...he is choosing stay after his A...lots of mind-twisting stuff from fog, etc. to come out of.

Have to run...

LA

HA!! I'm having visions of Supe-"R"-Rella, in a purple dress, with purple R's all over it and a purple eye-mask ... holding Mighty LaMouse, who wears a cute little beret that perfectly matches her red super-hero cape.

I'll be grinning all the way through the weekend on that one! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Guess I skipped some important details in the MC account.

I did tell her about the Monday night situation. She said that I need to call him on it, but do it at the next MC session. She had the most horrified look on her face when I told her I thought he might have been at the bar with OW, and that I had gone down fully intending to show him just how much backbone I really had. She was worried that I would have done something to get arrested. I told her I'd had a plan for that, knew who to call to bail me out and she just about fell over on the floor. That was kind of fun. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, she was very surprised at him totally ignorning me when I was talking to him that night about them staying at the house. She said he really does a good job of hearing and thinking and then thoughtfully responding in MC -- which is true. So she wants me to bring that situation up at the next appt when he's there and call him on his bad behavior.

There was one other thing that we talked about that I didn't mention in the post above. Last Sunday night, DS was in a play at his church, and BIL (H's brother) was preaching. H would not go with us, even though BIL's sermons (for these specific kinds of services) are always short and fun and light. I was surprised that H didn't want to go see DS's play, but didn't let it bother me and the kids and I went, anyway. MIL was there and started bawling when she found out that H hadn't come. She was really upset about it and cornered me afterwards, wanting to know why he hadn't come. (My MIL is wonderful, and I love her dearly -- we get along great, so when I say cornered, it wasn't a battle thing -- she just was not going to let me get away.) She is very upset that he's fallen away from the church and won't even come to see DS in a play. The two of them used to be very close, and now he will barely speak to her. She said that his whole character had been changing, and she didn't even recognize him anymore. I didn't feel any need to defend him, I just listened and let her get it out.

I told the counselor about that night, and she asked about why he doesn't go to church anymore (don't know), when that started (mid-A), his relationship with his mom, etc. She wants to ask those questions in MC, too, but said it may be a while before we get to those. That's ok with me, they seem kind of secondary, anyway.


I really have to run, I'll try to check in later with more detail and to respond to posts. I've got to get to MIL's for a dinner party they're having tonight -- H's uncle is in town, so it's always a party when he's around.

I'll try to check in before we leave for the weekend. Thanks for checking in on me!

-AmI.

LA-Mine too! LOL I sometimes out of the blue say:

Here I come to save the daaaaaayyyyy!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


AmI-You're up! Can we have some Fairy Godmother dust over here? Please? I'd like to grant AmI a magical weekend!


::::sprinkle, sprinkle, sprinkle:::: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

A little goes a long way! So, behave! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We had a barbecue at MIL's house tonight. Lots of people there, it was fun.

H was working, but had a break and stopped by for a while, it must be slow tonight, because he was there for a couple of hours, telling stories, laughing, having a god time. It was fun.

When he left he grabbed my finger and gave it a little squeeze. That little finger hug has probably just made my entire weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, that, and the image of the superhero twins in my head. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You know, it might have been Mighty Mouse that gave me the idea I could be loved enough if I pleased enough...hmmm...

Your awareness of what he's doing which meets your EN and not only on what he is not is your doing, AmI...big kudo to you on seeing it...knowing it...the balance in humans.

That's the magic dust, Rin...seeing what is, in proportion...not making it bigger or smaller than it is...

Perspective...magic dust...our choice...we have it, in our pockets, all the time.

Sounds like your FWH got a dose of RC...with you. And you did, too.

(((AmI))) (((Rin))))

LA

I need to do a real, thinking post very soon. I have a lot that's been going on in my head and responses I want to make. I will try to get to that tomorrow night -- once we're back home, and since H will be working.


For now, though, I had a bit of a melt-down this afternoon that kind of caught me off-guard. We stopped at a mall to pick up an anniversary gift for the party we were going to this afternoon. Mom and I went in, and kids and mom's husband stayed in the car.

As we were picking out an album, I was thinking bout H's and my anniversary, which is this week. It knocked the breath right out of me. I started crying in the middle of the stupid mall ... trying to get control of myself, wearing my sunglasses inside and trying to keep the tears from streaming down my face too obviously.

Mom and I got out of there pretty quickly (my mom is great) and then walked very slowly back to the car so I could get ahold of myself before the kids could see.

Had to keep my sunglasses on for a long time. And now I'm crying again as I'm thinking about it.

What do you do about anniversaries at a time like this? Just leave him a card? He works that night, I work that day, so we won't exactly have time together that day.

I would like for this day to still be a special one, a celebration for both of us. But that's not going to happen, which makes me realy sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> Is there any way to still make it a little special?

AmI-Remember with all that you've been through, it's okay to have a bad day! Bad days are what makes us grateful for the good days, the great days!

Has it been raining where you are? The reason I ask, it has been here almost everyday! I find myself lost in a sea of emotions. It's perfectly okay, remember that! It's perfectly okay, to have a day to be overwhemled, just wipe those tears away, andstand tall! You have a lot to stand tall for, you have a lot to hold your head high for, you are a beautiful person with so much courage and strenght.

So, you fell to your knees, what did you learn about yourself? What did you learn about the situation? Did you honestly think that you could made it without stumbling along the way? When we stumble there a lesson to be learned, what was your lesson?

I see that you are concerned about your anniversary. It can only be what you make it that day, and that day has yet to come. I have a tendency to think in the future rather than in the here and now, which raised my anxiety level. What good does that do for me? What good does that do for you...to think in the future? We can only make the most of the day...not yesterday...not tomorrow...but today. How are you going to make today the best day...without the fear of what's to come?

Sounds like a case of "I want what I want, when I want it," Dh is there, he's not with OW, he's not in an apt. somewhere. He's right there! Maybe a good time to create some intimacy without the two of you being present with each other. Explain to DH your disappointment of not being together, maybe the two of you can come up with a plan to make the most of the day. Cards on each others pillows, a Hersey's kiss by his toothbrush, a little note, anything...create a new memory...you're still in Plan A.

Show him that you're choosing to love...doesn't actions speak louder than words?

To be honest, I'm grateful for the A, not because of the damage and destruction that it caused, but for the gift of waking up, the gift of showing me...just me...the error of my ways...allowing me to become a better person. I learned that I reacted to most situations, but now's the time to act. Are you acting and not reacting? That fear of the unknown can cause us all to often to react instead of act...that fear of tomorrow.

My dad...bless his little PA behavior soul...recently starting saying in the past year, "Don't sweat the small stuff, and everything is small." This come from a man who was more silent because of his anger for so many years. Funny how a belief like that can turn your world around, he's a lot more easy going these days!

Are you standing still? Sounds like DH is tying to catch up...finger hug here...who knows what's next. I love surprises...Do you?

Well, AmI, you said that you needed a thinking post. I hope that I had added a few things to it! I'm in the same area that you are, I believe...I'm running down. I'm tired and wondering how much more of this I can handle...but that a fear of the unknown...not living for today! I'm not finished the battle yet, and I believe you're not either. You're an amazing person...during the Triatholon...were there spots when you thought...I'm crazy, or I can't do this? What you're going through right now is no different!

Ok, I have lots of thinking posts to catch up on, so this will either be very long, or will be lots of semi-long ones. Stay tuned.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Been thinking about and processing a lot of different things.

One is the love as a choice, and making that choice for a reason thing.

I still think love is a choice. I'm not quite getting the inside-out idea, and am still a little stuck on the concept of having reasons to make the choice. (I'm talking about specific love here, not the "love thy neighbor" kind of love. I think that's different, and more related to the God analogy.)

I think it's valid to have a reason to love someone, particularly in the sense of loving a spouse. I agree that God loves everyone equally, and does so regardless of our actions, but my love for my H is not a God kind of love. It's a love of ra spouse. I chose H as a husband for lots of specific reasons that had to do with who he is, his character, actions, background, and more.

As a non-biological parent, I also got a choice regarding loving my kids. There are plenty of good step-parents out there who care for their kids and are kind and good to them, but will admit that they don't love them. I had that option, but I looked at all the reasons and made the choice, and commitment to love them as a parent. There are some days I don't *like* them very much, and yes, they each have different things that I enjoy about them. But I had reasons - specific and examined - for making the choice to love them.

I guess that I have always needed to know the reason for loving someone. And it has always been a very conscious choice to me. I'm very conscious and methodical about deciding if I will love, and then once I decide, I do it.

I'm pretty black-and white sometimes. Would like to explore this topic a little more, though.


-AmI.

Would you consider that when you married, you chose to love your H...and they were for certains reasons...and to continue to love your H, to provide the sickness and health, in good times and in bad; that you had to choose to love your H, the symbol, not the particulars?

So that you did not choose not to love based on some of his actions (and our act of forgiveness); when his character was not what you expected...or his choices were out of character?

Same with the children...you chose to open to them...let them into your love by choosing to love them...and they are children, like a symbol, which you choose to love as a whole...not based on their treatment of you at times (and your act of forgiveness), their characters that they're developing (their brains won't fully form until age 25)...or their choices right now...

This does not prohibit you from enforcing boundaries...and continuing to choose to love...does it?

I don't think symbol is the word I want...or role...so I'm relying on you to come up with the representation I need, 'k?

Like when we choose to honor and protect our marriage, even when we aren't feeling too lovey for the hubby...when we choose to stay O&H even if others are not doing...to honor ourselves.

Our choice to love runs deep by time acting from that choice, deeper with each tragedy, moment of hilarity, and daily gratitude we do together...husband, wife, son, daughter...where our thoughts are, so is our treasure...and the love can be so deep that we forget we choose...at times, wish hard we did not...and still have the signal that indeed we do...or resentment and anger can block that signal...and we must reach back for the choice...which is ours, all along...

And the love they neighbor is this other part of the same whole...because everyone in life besides yourself is your neighboring human...stepping into and out of roles, different times...and who you pick to endure matters...and those you meet, matter for a moment...and knowing the symbols and the humans, matters.

If we loved by reasons...without them merging into mutual history, then you would have to gather evidence of love...and tip the scales one way or the other...a constantly evaluative process...one many of us get caught up in...when we stop knowing what we have committed to, and only what we deserve...

You won't go there, AmI...I know you won't. You can see the trappings, though...he did that, and I chose not to love him anymore...yet they do love later, even through it...with a lot of stuff piled over...and those things are evidence gatherers...resentment is a score keeper (against our own expectations)...anger is our guard dog for boundary violations and knowing our fear (expectations and perspective); bitterness comes from mountains of evidence, with no keen eye to us being its source...

Mostly, before, I loved who loved me first...who met my ENs. That was my reason...not evaluative in specifics...simple and broad...and very limiting, what to do, when I didn't feel loved anymore.

LA

Ok, guess it's lots of little posts ....

#2 is boundaries, negotiation, etc.

LA, thank you for posting the details of your example. I can relate to the hours of turmoil and ick that you mentioned, only I have a tendency to go for much longer than a couple of hours! And over things that may not really deserve so much turmoil.

I'm learning to open my mouth and share how I feel. I have a very difficult time, though, with consequences.

And I think this is a biggie for me because of H's feeling that he could run right over me if he wanted to.

I mentioned above that I have a tendency to be very black-and-white. It's sometimes hard for me to find balance or middle ground. So, for example, that Monday night that he went out. I stated my feelings, but that wasn't enough. I certainly wasn't going to go stand in front of his vehicle to stop him from leaving. Was not going to pitch a screaming fit or whatever ... he made his choice.

So, ideally, then it's my turn to make a choice, right? Just put up with him going despite my feelings? Then just be mad and pissy about it when he comes home? (This would have been my course of action before, except without the stating my felings part). Do I wait for him to come home and have a big showdown then? Sit there and brew for days until we can talk about it rationally?

What are my options when his choice is disrespectful to me? I've spent so many years being CA and a "smoother" as LA put it, that I really get stumped at what options I might have.

That night, I thought my options were either let it go and be a doormat, or instant Plan B. Such extremes .... and neither are really a good answer.

I get the theory of boundaries and choices and his vs mine, etc. It's the practical, nuts and bolts part of it that has my head spinning.

-AmI.

Key to boundaries are that you predetermine the enforcements and they are progressive...oh, and enforce them consistently.

"I stated my feelings, but that wasn't enough."

Wasn't enough? For what? To stop him? To control him?

Boundaries do not protect you from another person's actions...what you did by stating your feelings was to NOT betray yourself...ergo, no doormat there, huh?

He chose...you chose. What you did not choose was to leave him to his consequences...you babysat him...that's enabling and disrespectful...you tell him you're unplugging the phones so you can't be reached because you are sleeping and you know he's an adult in charge of himself.

Tell him if he comes home past midnight, he'll have to sleep on the couch so as not to disturb you.

Then you do unplug the phones, shut off the cell...and take care of yourself.

All his choices...respectful.

You worried about a DUI or a wreck or anything else that he is responsible for...not you. You asked him to stay home and he didn't choose to...

Get creative...you are very creative...talk with H brainstorming boundary enforcements, if you want...or do them yourself...you must inform him ahead of time of your boundaries...bring this up in MC...and no, you didn't show any backbone that night...one night.

To my way of thinking, that Monday night, you enabled and you doormatted...you said, "I believe I am being ignored and not a priority for you. I'm angry and hurt by your choice." Then you went and took care of him...under the guise of taking care of yourself, the surveillance snooping (which I do understand). When your whole reason for asking him not to go was a work night for you.

When you joined him, you told self, "Okay to be ignored, not a priority, discounted and sold off cheap...you do it to yourself."

LA

OHHHHHHH .... yes, yes, yes, yes yes.

There we go, that's the balance. Made the choice, the commitment, for reasons ... continue making that same choice because of the commitment. The commitment to my marriage, my H, my family.


That's the concept I was trying to get my arms around. Love as a choice and also as a commitment. So maybe the initial choice to love was earned ... for whatever reasons. But the ongoing choice is not earned, it's my piece, my commitment. They can't "make" me not love them by their actions.... I chose.

Thank you! I couldn't get those two concepts to mesh quite right.




Nope! Sure could use help with boundaries, though!



I love this. I just wrote this paragraph in my journal. Thank you.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


-AmI