Thank you both, so much.
You've both made such a difference in my life, I just can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

Change is hard, and it's uncomfortable. I'm so cozy with all my old patterns and beliefs ... I feel like I'm re-learning everything, starting over completely. It's frustrating and feels so slow. Like learning a new language ... I feel so incapable and ineffective and dumb stumbling through the new language, sometimes I think it would be so much easeir to just use the one I know.

Side-track ... as I'm sitting here thinking about learning new languages.... I just remembered that when DD was about 4 or 5, she used to think she could speak Spanish and Korean. She was adamant that she could actually speak those languages, and sometimes, she decided she could speak French, too. She would just babble away in syllables and sounds that sort of sounded like they might be Spanish or Asian .... and insist that she was speaking it. Really! She got really upset when some of the truly bi-lingual kids couldn't understand her, and she couldn't understand them, but they could talk to each other. It took her well over an entire school year, and a trip to Mexico, to realize what it meant to speak in other languages. That they weren't just babbling sounds, that the sounds had meaning. It was funny.


Anyway .... I'm really just hanging around here tonight because I'm having a rough night, but not for any realy reason. H was nice today, friendly. Asked me to bring him some tea when he was working on that concrete (I had caled and asked if he wanted anything, but he doesn't usually "let" me do things like that recently). Kids and I had a nice night, including my neice and nephew who came over for a few hours -- they are so much fun. But now they're gone and the kids are in bed and H is working ... and I'm feeling very weepy. Everything on TV is setting me off, I tried to knit for a little while, and couldn't concentrate on it ... went for a walk, but was still crying .... and can't really pin-point why. It's not even the big healing sobs that get everything out and feel better afterwards. It's just sort of on and off knots in my heart and stomach.

It's just a really yucky, crummy feeling. Maybe I just need some sleep....

-AmI

AH, sleep...waking to a blank slate...a new and brighter day...even a nap is refreshing...

Weepy huh? Could we be mirroring each other...my turn being two nights ago when I was watching One Tree Hill...

It seems to me that even when we are not weepy we are healing...the cuts, scrapes and bruises rejuvenate with proper care...crying whether sobbing or weepy like you are tonight is a cleansing process...

Think about the rain...I like it when it rains...God's cleansing process on the Earth...a way to wash all the negatives things away...the dirt from the tree's leaves...he's batheing the Earth...healing the Earth's soul...preparing for a brighter day...

Shouldn't we have the same process...to remove the leftover negative stuff that stops us in our tracks...weeping/sobbing as I did last night...prepared me today for a brighter day...opened my soul to reveal hidden secrets...

What's in store for you? How many steps will you move forward from this cleansing? The choice remains up to you...my angel in deguise(SP)...

AmI,

"I'm really just hanging around here tonight because I'm having a rough night, but not for any realy reason. H was nice today, friendly."

You had a rough night, not for any real reason...because H had been nice? What if your rough night was in you, about you...? Maybe coming directly from you not thinking ON you enough?

C'mon, AmI...give me what I want...your honesty. Turn it inside out, 'k?

Pretty please?

LA

I guess that was my problem -- I knew the sadness, weepiness, was mine, about me ... but I couldn't find a reason for it. It had been a good day, and I couldn't pin-point a real reason to be crying.

But I still was. And it made me more upset that I couldn't figure out where it was coming from. What I was upset about. What the tears meant.

It's been like this off an on for the last couple of days. Nights seem hardest, but sometimes the tears just come from out of the blue in the middle of the day, too. Yesterday we went to paly Laser Tag, and I was crying in the middle of it, for no real reason -- thank goodness for the darkness in that room. (I won, by the way, and my DS made a point of making the guy working it put my name up on the "high score" board.) I can't tell you how many times I've gone to hide in the bathroom, sent the kids off to play, taken showers ... whatever this weekend.

LA, you once asked me why hide the tears... I think I'd be more ok with them if I could verbalize a reason for them. I can't even figure it out myself.


If I could pinpoint a reason, then I think it would help. But I get more upset that I can't figure it out, and then that just makes it worse. I'm getting so frustrated with myself. That I don't have better control of my feelings, that it's so confusing to understand them, own them, and then know what to do about it. On paper, everything makes so much sense, and it sounds so good and right, but the implementing and actually living it part seems to knock me for a big loop and I feel so clueless and paralyzed. Old way doesn't work, and I don't want it that way anymore, but I don't know how to "do" the new way. Can't seem to make it happen or really get it into practice. It's very, very frustrating to me, and I feel like I'm failing. Failing myself and the way I want to live, and failing my last chance at saving my marriage.

I'm normally pretty bright, but you're right, not much EQ. I don't understand why I'm having such a hard time learning this.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

-AmI.

You know, I keep seeing that ad to the right of the screen for the MB weekend.... and all the things it says are the things my H has said ... Don't feel that way, can't change my feelings, blah blah blah.

I'm wondering if it would make any sense to present that to him as something to try.

Or if it would just be more R talk and "pressure" and another "hook".

I'm probably wrong about this, but I would approach it like this. And I'm sure that this will be labeled a DJ, but anyway... I'd tell him that you're surprised that he's willing to just throw in the towel and be a quitter after all the history you two have and the friendship that you've had. You could ask him that before he unilaterally decides to take apart the family, if he'd be willing to do the one last thing (Marriage Builders' weekend) and see if it shows you any solution to your problems.

I'd also not put up with one minute of his iciness and disrespectful behavior. When he's a jerk, I'd pipe up and say that even if he feels the marriage is over, that you were still his wife for years and his best friend and that you deserve some common courtesy. I'd also throw in that he can obviously do what he chooses, but that you are NOT a quitter. And then, I'd walk away.

I hate to see what these WH's are putting so many of you through.

(((AmI)))

Tears...

First, find out which kind...there are so many types...

Poignant...when you witness or receive an unexpected kindness, an unexpected joy (usually around your kids) from a comment, or an action...those tears can be deep gratitude, mixed with a slight self-bash...for not expecting goodness or joy...

Grieving...unmet expectations, seemingly reasonable and basic...like how you thought of your married life since you were a young girl...the promises you made inside about your children, the family you'd have...the loss of fantasy is grieving...can get in the way of reality; and it can be mixed in with self-bash for having dreamed to begin with, or not been smart enough to know when to stop that dreaming...a touch of "I should have known betters" and a dash of "If only" or "What ifs"...blended, to hide the source of the tears.

Gratitude...I was unused to loving myself, thinking of myself kindly, and being grateful to others for everything...when I began to put myself in the mix, there were tears, and I felt they were from gratitude...felt unreasonable and odd...I accepted them and eventually, as I made myself a priority, they stopped.

Pain...feeling discounted or failing...is it yourself or others? Is it within your control or not? Is it you discounting yourself, or someone else? Is it conflict in not wanting what is, or not knowing what truly is...or living in the future that hasn't arrived? The past that can't be undone? Is it old pain recurring in the present? Overlapping?

To discover this inside myself, I become mindful of images...my DH uses smells...what "flashes" you elsewhere, to anywhere but the image in front of you when tears fall...maybe an audible image...a sound, lyric or tune...words in your head...statements or admonishments...predictions from others you believe are coming true...

I've cried tears from anger; the signals to me were thoughts full of shoulds and shouldn'ts...

I was depressed for many years and cried what I thought was obscurely...for no reason...and in retrospect, I didn't have the tools to divine my own reasons...to link them...

You are attempting to link them to a day...and I'm asking you to see them in a moment...what that moment tasted like, reminded you of or represented. A moment. Not a day. Not someone else doing or saying something...just you being you, and in touch with you.

Getting to where you wear your own skin can bring tears...from radically changing your pattern, from homecoming...only you know and they are your tears.

Don't discount hormones (which I believe emphasize or exaggerate our emotions), sleep patterns and weather...don't cause, maybe increase or decrease?

I believe your new commitment to O&H, to sharing who you really are can bring on these tears...be O&H, anyway. Even with your tears. Know why...you're worth them. Know to know...not to stop or suppress. Know to know.

LA

Thanks, Rin! I wish the tears felt more cleansing and healing. You are so good at the "waking up to a new day" thing ... I need to try to do that a little more.

Grownup, thank you. I have sort of told him something similar in counseling. I told him that I wasn't willing to quit or give up, that I would uphold my vows even now when it doesn't feel so great, and that I was disappointed that he would give up. It did feel good to get that out, if I ask him about the MB weekend, I think I will put it in similar terms, along with "what is there to lose?"


I'm not sure about asking him about the weekend. I'd like to, and it seems to fit us, but ...... well, I can come up with all kinds of excuses .... fear of his response, mostly.

I really think that at least it couldn't hurt. Right???

I think my tears are mostly:

Grieving: definitely unmet expectations of how I thought of mariage, the loss of the marriage I thought I had, the family I thought I'd have, the biological children I still want.... and a whole lot of "I should have known betters" and "If only" and "What ifs".

Also Pain: feeling like I've failed. Myself. It's me being disappointed in myself, feeling like there are so many thing I should have done better. Probably still feeling like I could cause, control, cure the M problems all by myself. It is definitely conflict of not wanting what is, and not knowing what truly is ... or maybe even what I truly want anymore. This feeling of limbo, waiting, and yet not knowing if I can ever really recover past some of the things I think about sometimes.


"Getting to where you wear your own skin can bring tears...from radically changing your pattern, from homecoming...only you know and they are your tears."

I think this is related, too. I feel very uncomfortable with my own self right now. Almost float-ey and detached, way out in space somewhere, and running out of oxygen. Not sure how to get to where I want to be, and really not wanting to go back to the old way.


It's like having a hair trigger. Seeing couples (on TV or IRL) sets me off, wishing we could be like that again. Single people or divorce situations feel like a slap of reality, and lonliness. Kids in general, my kids, specifically make me so sad about our whole family falling apart. I feel so powerless about the kids, and guilty that I couldn't keep their lives together....


It's all kinds of things, and they just keep coming. I'm starting to feel really drained.

-AmI.

I'm really considering proposing the MB weekend to H. Does it make any sense to do so? Do you think it would be any different than just practicing what I'm learning here and in the books?

I will be honest that my main goal in doing so would be to get H to learn some of the things I've been learning, to get us on the same page, and to get him to commit to trying.

Only slightly (ha!) contradictory to what I've been learning here about not causing, controlling the other person .... sigh ....


Last night H and I went and worked out after the kids went to bed. He was going anyway and I asked if I could go with him because I haven't been in a while. I think my arms just about fell off by the timeit was all over with, and I'm incredibly sore today, but it felt really good. I think I need to get back into working out again, it really does feel -- physically -- good, and emotionally, too. That tired, worn out, left it all out there feeling was really nice. I've got to get back to that. And I didn't cry once last night after the workout ... too worn out, I think! Maybe that will help me get over some of this weepiness, too. I'm really tired of crying!!!

-AmI.

HI, I just wanted to check in with you...you have helped me so much and I find that we a few steps off from being in the same place.

I understand that you are tired of crying...Grieving for your old reality? acceptance of the new reality?

As much as we want the past/old reality, we will never have that, why?

We're awake! We've renewed been reborn sort to speak...we're now looking at the big picture...

Isn't the view so beautiful and wonderous? Would you want to go back to that porthole view or do you prefer the balcony?

As difficulty as it is, I perfer the balcony...there are objects in our sight that we have never seen before...things we have to learn about...

Of course, I'm the one who the teacher keeps fusing because I was to touch everything instead of sitting still and learning. (Nothing intended here! LOL)

It's a difficult task to take in that breathe taking view but if we concentrate on a little piece of it an a time...it's not so breathe taking anymore and we can focus on the little things that make it so beautiful...

...a workout with H...not that's a wonderous, simple detail...RC time...

You'll get there...you have everything you need...you'll get there...count on it...

AmI...

On draining and feel drained...

Look, you leaked! Tears really have a physical/emotional/mental impact...they do! You drain...feel drained...like that workout, too...people think of it as a release...same as tears...

Feel drained isn't negative...drained of toxins, toxic shame...draining anger...fear...re-centering yourself...

A positive drain...if possible...picture a cheery, bright pink drain...not a negative, sucking, feeling sucky kind...

Can you float on your back in the gym pool after your work out?

LA

Just updating .... nothing all that profound

H had to work reallllllly late today. He's supposed to get off at midnight, but it's usually closer to 2. This morning they were just headed back to the office at 8, and still had a few hours of paperwork left to do! So H let me take them some bagels and donuts and juice .... I haven't gotten to do that on a big case for a LOOOONG time. Since way before, when things were really good. I like doing those things for him, it made me feel good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And recently he hasn't been leting me do those things. So I was pretty happy about this morning.

I don't have much else to say ... not a lot of other big changes. I asked the physical trainer at our office to put together a workout schedule for me. So I should have a good plan in place in the next few days. I haven't done much since the triathlon...

I'm hoping that helps me a little ... take my mind off of things. I'm having a really hard time at night after the kids are in bed, when H is working, and I can't figure out what to do with myself. I hate watching TV (which is new, because I definitely have plenty of couch-potato expertise.) Can't go run or anything, since it's dark by then plus I wouldn't feel good about leaving the kids alone at night for that long. So I just feel like I'm crawling out of my skin, and spend way too much time brooding on M issues. That's when the tears are the worst, and my thoughts just get so scattered and ping-pong-ey and hard to control.

Maybe if I start working out early in the mornings, then I will crash early, too, as soon as the kids are in bed. It would be nice to skip those awful evenings!

-AmI.


ps ... anyone have any thoughts on me suggesting the MB weekend to H? I think I want to do that this week.

(((((AmI)))))

Have you mention to H your feeling at night? Has he been calling at night to check on you guys?

What are you thinking AmI? Could your LB be extrememly withdrawn?

As far suggestions, I would be very blunt..."I would like to go to a MB weekend with you. It would mean the world to me. Would you consider it, please?"

Do you like doing puzzles...you know 1000 pieces? What do you like to do? What's the one thing that you do that clearer your head? What's your passion?

Hi, Rin.

No, I haven't mentioned it to him, and no, he doesn't really call to check in on us. Sometimes he'll call to let me know what uniform DS needs for his club, or ask about plans for the kids. But they are very quick conversations, he rarely has much time to chat.

Yes, my LB is all the way in the red, and has been for a while. I'm in Plan A and trying not to expect him to meet any of my needs. I'm trying to meet them myself. I don't have a lot of loving feelings for him right now -- leaning hard on the concepts of "Love is a choice -- and I made a commitment" and "act loving and you will feel loving".


My question on the MB weekend is .... is it too much R talk for right now? Is it doo desperate? One more "hook", since he's already said he's done and doesnt' want to try anymore? Or would it give him an 'excuse' to go back on what he said about moving out and being done, which I believe he said at the spur of the moment and without a plan and not really knowing what he wanted to do -- just how he felt right then.

I'm wondering if the weekend and courses would help or if I just need to keep learning myself, keep trying to implement myself, and keep getting ready for Plan B?

If I'm really honest, I feel really ready for Plan B. I need SOMETHING. I want him to either commit to working on it, or to get out. I'm feeling very impatient, and I know that's probably working against me. I just can't imagine living in this limbo, unresolved world for very much longer.

As far as what to do at night, I should be reading, Ihave SOOO much to read, and I like reading, and all of it is stuff that I really want to read, but I can't seem to concentrate on it. I recently learned to knit, and I like it a lot, but can't get myself to just sit and do it at night ... it's the weirdest feeling, like when your leg kicks at night, right when you're about to fall asleep ... my whole body feels like it has to DO SOMETHING right this second ...

I think Iwill start taking my Ambien again right after I put the kids to bed .... then maybe I can sleep through that freak-out lonely time. Wow, things are going to be REALLY lonely if he really does move out.

I hear you are restless and your concentration is gone. Sounds to me like you're not centered, focused on yourself...

I'm sorry that you are feeling this way. Please keep in mind that DH is right there with you...not gone...not moved out...right there with you, in your bed...

Keep your head up! I remember that feeling so long ago before H and I were M...I was finishing up my last quarter of college and he had moved to Baton Rouge. I missed him so much...my heart was aching...I cried to much and I wrote to myself...sometimes him...I had a dog at the time and he wasn't even comforting. It got better AmI, it got better for me...I'm sure it will for you!

AmI...can you remember the last time you felt this compulsive? Was it DDay and right after?

I believe you're re-experiencing crisis state...being in the unknown of whether you have a marriage or you don't...

I would love it if you would choose to be in what you know right now, the facts...and stop going "Wow, things are going to be REALLY lonely if he really does move out." because you are experiencing all the emotions your brain thinks you MIGHT feel if he does move out...and he hasn't.

Why not speak your truth? "I have been considering the MB Weekend and wondering what you thought of going. I've been too afraid to be honest with you. I finally got a grip on my fear and now I'm asking."

"I have been thinking how I will feel really lonely if you move out...and then I realized, I already feel pretty darn lonely now."

Have you both already discussed this with the children? Do you want to wait for his real decision, or do you want to accept his decision and treat it as fact, without believing it will BE fact?

I thought you were prepped for Plan B...why not get all that stuff you thought out in writing...the visitation arrangements...treat those children as your own...they are of your heart...and that's real...you get the 5 days...etc.

Just as discussed. Also, lay out the papers for the MB weekend...all his choices...and more.

Can you see how your thoughts, obsessive or not, generate a lot of feelings which are false...not what you are experiencing in the present with him present...but as if he's not...take that rein and pull, AmI.

It's not over until I sing REALLY high.

Great advice (of course) from Rin on journalling...your concentration is shot for reading...understandable...comes back when obsessive thoughts are reined in...journalling, stream of consciousness, however, can be done even with compulsive thought patterns presiding. Sometimes, the BEST times...

Your thoughts remain to self-care...large kudo on your head, AmI...Ambien, working out...hugging the kids until you've burned 400 calories...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Crisis states pass...they need your help passing...you can choose to NOT be in crisis state...and choose it over and over again as your feelings jump up and you understand where they came from...what thoughts you were allowing yourself, and what reality is...with both hands.

LA

Rin, Yes, restless is a good word, and definitely not centered or focused. I like your idea of writing. I used to journal a lot, especially in the beginning of all this. Maybe I need to get back to that. Thanks.


LA,

"I believe you're re-experiencing crisis state...being in the unknown of whether you have a marriage or you don't...'

Yes, I think you're right ... this pretty much exactly sums up where I am!

[b"I would love it if you would choose to be in what you know right now, the facts...and stop going "Wow, things are going to be REALLY lonely if he really does move out." because you are experiencing all the emotions your brain thinks you MIGHT feel if he does move out...and he hasn't."[/b]

Can you please help me with this? You say "choose to be in what you know right now, the facts", but I feel like I don't know anything right now, don't have any facts. I'm just in limbo and waiting on him to decide what the facts are -- and that sucks! I'm supposed to decide what the facts are for me ... my beliefs, my feelings .... they are supposed to be mine. But I feel like I can't get those because I don't know what he's going to do. It's ultimate enmeshment and I seem to get deeper and deeper into it every time I try to dig my way out. I need a light to aim at, I feel like I'm going the wrong way.


"Have you both already discussed this with the children? Do you want to wait for his real decision, or do you want to accept his decision and treat it as fact, without believing it will BE fact?"

No, we haven't discussed it with the kids. I would rather not until there is a concrete plan in place. This not having any idea what's going on thing is about to KILL me, I can't imagine what it would do to them. Do you think we should be doing that? We have already talked about the parenting schedule, I'd get the kids on the nights that he works -- which is 5 nights a week. I like this schedule, I like the days that I'd have them, so I don't have a problem with the schedule, even if it also does make things easy for him. I will still have my kids the majority of the time.


"Can you see how your thoughts, obsessive or not, generate a lot of feelings which are false...not what you are experiencing in the present with him present...but as if he's not..."

Yes, I can see that. But how do I reconcile him being present, what I'm experienceing in the present, with him also saying that he doesn't love me anymore and wants to move out? I think that thought is what's really got me so conflicted and chaotic.


I feel like I'm arguing with you, and that's the oposite of what I want to do. I'm just having a hard time applying the concepts to real life. The practical, specific "this foot goes here" stuff doesn't seem to click as well for me as the ideas. I'm very, very frustrated with myself right now for not seeming to be able to translate between the two. I feel like I'm dropping into old habbits, not speaking up, not stating my truth ... just pretending.

I will definitely ramp up the self care. I'm going to ask a friend to be a workout buddy with me so that I will actually get up and do it. I also want to get back to practicing the O&H things. I need to get better at opening my mouth and knowing what to say it's such an important skill that I want to develop.


Thank you both for still hanging in there with me ... I can't tell you how much I appreciate all your support.


-AmI.

(((((AmI)))))

The way I see it we are about in the same place given the dates. Just sub your Anniv. for my call for NC. We're both still early in the game...just different stratagies are being used by our H's...like LA says...not old, new...new rung, new view...just feels old...you're moving up there...just like I am!

Remember also...LA says you have everything you need within you...so a little fine tuning is needed...you'll work it out...

You are my sister, my friend, I wouldn't tell you something that wasn't true...YOU, valuable little special YOU, are doing a wonderful job...today is today...H is that days ago...not today...Tomorrow is tomorrow...brighter if you let it be...

I ended my pity party, LOL so I called it...what are you going to do about where you are? Not old....new...the new and improved AmI...may not feel like it all the time but it's true...

You have the strenght to keep going...I believe in you!

Thanks, Rin.

I appreciate the encouragement and support .... definitely needing those things these days!

-AmI.