Have you gotten the opportunity to see H at least since yesterday's OJ and donuts?

How would a hug feel from H? Do you need one and do you think you could ask for it? Or heck, just give him one...Plan Aing...;)

AmI...I can't tell you how much you mean to me...the fact that you point out some amazing stuff to me in my own sitch means the world to me...How could I not be here for you? Your personality is so gorgeous...

What kind of a person would I be if I didn't stand by your side? What are friends for? I'd be more than happy to give you my email if you need a shoulder other than here...

AmI,

Okay...you're in crisis state...recognizing that, does it change any of your emotions? Like giving yourself permission to be fearful, angry?

Would you consider that knowing what you don't know is a fact, as well as knowing what you do? What you don't know...which is what your WH will choose to do or not...is a fact. You don't know. Begin there.

(I put the W in front of the H because he's in a wayward state of mind...not that he's in contact.)

Another fact...you don't have to wait for him to decide...you are choosing to not believe his decision to move out, because he hasn't. You could choose to file for legal separation and get him out, couldn't you? You could file for divorce...or just pack his stuff up and put it in the driveway...lots of choices...know you are making the choice not to do any of these right now...not just waiting.

In reality, we do not know what our partners will do...we are in the state you are in, essentially, because without assuming or guessing, we really don't know, ever, what a person will do next...or not do. Another great reason to decide our actions from our code, not based on responses we desire or possible responses we might or might not get.

You recognize the enmeshment...another belief you have and recognize. You believe his choices are determining yours, somewhere inside you...and they are not. Can feel that way...if we believe we're powerless, in limbo, waiting...we will experience that limbo.

Can you ask for clarification? "H, I heard you say you were moving out in a month. Is that what your plan is? I ask because we need to speak with the children, explain the schedule, explain why you are doing this and separate our finances. There's a lot to be done."

Btw, do you see the pattern your WH chooses to continue in his life? What did you believe his previous failed marriage(s) were about? Can you see the pattern, the reactivity, differently now?

Your WH could be saying he doesn't love baseball anymore and wants to be a millionaire...how would you feel about those statements? Not much? They are his own, right? Because you're taking his statement of not being in love with you and moving out (away from you)...well, that feels all about you...reasonably so...yet not true.

You KNOW we choose to love...have to be conscious of it, not choose from feelings but our beliefs...because our love banks determine how in love we feel...and we control what deposits get in or don't, not the person attempting to make those deposits. Your WH believes what he feels is true...so his truth varies with his emotions...a powerless belief, true? As if he's living second-hand to himself...

I know I did.

So, the consequences of living this way are apparent...injury to everyone...not the first time around the block for him doing this, is it?

For you, though...there's a lot of pain NOT living in reality...is he really going to do this or not? Making his words the reality...clarifying and confirming...may seem as though you're trying to make him do something...maybe push him away...when you know you can't?

He's choosing not to work on the marriage by believing he can fall in love again and again with you...he's doing that. You're not. He's choosing what he believes and respecting that is handing his stuff back to him. Takes you being verbal, aware, and focused.

But it beats limbo land and not knowing...because you know, and there is no limbo land.

You can feel like you're arguing with me...I didn't hear you that way. I hear you clarifying and confirming...LOL. Further proof you're fully capable of living O&H, and see it somewhere in you as arguing...that's okay. As long as you know this and act O&H anyway, where's the problem?

Are you living from your feelings, is that the overlap that seems to lock your brain up? You fear speaking so you don't? He fears falling in love with you again so he doesn't? So you believe him more because you are choosing to fear and stop, therefore, you feel he stopped loving you? I don't believe he has...I choose NOT to believe that.

I know that limbo land of waiting on a decision...I do not know where you're at having been given that decision, and then him not acting on it. Mine was horrible to live through, marvelous to learn from...I don't know yours. Sounds more painful, if that's possible. You're not weak and you're not nuts, AmI.

What would you advise your daughter to do in this instance, if she were in crisis?

(They are YOUR children...I mean that...of your heart and spirit...respect them more...they know their family is in crisis, and if no one's confirming that to them, including them, then they are being deceived...don't cheat them...they've been through this before, haven't they?)

<--proud to be your friend, AmI...and grateful you're here.

LA

Ok, now I have to think and process a little .... but did want to hit the factual questions ...

No, haven't seen H since yesterday morning, except for when he came home this morning, and I was pretty dead asleep at that time.

I would LOVE a hug, or any physical contact, from H. I miss that SO much. Last time I tried to just give him one, he gave me that "what are you doing, gross Aunt Edna?" stiffen up. I know, I'm not supposed to let his reactions dictate my actions, but fear of that happening again is stopping me from trying for hugs. I do still reach over and scratch his back or give his feet a little rub when I walk past.

H's previous marriage failed primarily due to violence and infidelity on her part (documented, and admitted to by her). He suspected several affairs, but when he finally got proof and confronted her with it, she thanked him for the excuse to leave and moved out that day, and gave up custody of the kids soon after. He tried to save that marriage, told me stories of going to MC and crying as she sat there and told him how worthless he was. I don't understand why he'd fight for that relationship but not this one.

Ok, those are the only easy facts ... the rest I need to think about and process. A lot.

Thank you both again, I really appreciate you girls. My Heroes!

-AmI.

What you found out, substantiated by xWW, were about her. Not about him. Can you see the difference? You only know what he told you he thought...any secrets as to what he did that she didn't know about remain his secrets.

Thank you for explaining his history...because that's biting your heart, too...and you didn't post about it. Why not you? Wow. That's super painful.

Because you aren't rejecting him.

Not about you, your essence, your response...to want to save the marriage...not rejecting him, which she was doing...you found him out...you're walking in his shoes...and you are innocent...possibly, he wasn't, though that's the story he believes in his head.

What if...these were true for you and spoke them?

"I know you're valuable, worth fight for." And walk off.

"I know I'm valuable and worthy. I know our family is gold." And walk off...

"I wonder if I rejected you like your xWW did, if you would also fight for this marriage. I'm trying hard not to reject, but to respect your choices as your own. Not my doing."

When he freeze up at your hug...you have to take it as repulsion, don't you, for it to hurt? What if you chose to believe it was guilt, shame, that this love actually hurt inside of him...your touch of acceptance, support and acknowledgment? How would your fear feel then?

I'm sooo gonna make this all about you, AmI...and tell you not to take what he does/says/feels about you.

ROFL...can you better understand that upside down feeling you have is valid?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Thinking of you this evening...you and Rin...going to sign off soon and do an exercise with DH...

You're in my thoughts like prayers,

LA

Thanks, LA.

That really means a lot to me.

YOU really mean a lot to me. I appreciate you so much.


Enjoy your time with your DH ... I get to go to bed SUPER early -- right now -- tonight! I'm determined to get up and work out in the morning.

-AmI.

Slept great last night .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Woke up and chatted with H quite a bit when he got home .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Still did NOT get up and go work out this morning ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Have MC in an hour ... or should I start considering it IC, now, since H doesn't go? I'm still wondering if **I** should go .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

At least it's finally Friday, and the Friday of a long weekend, even! YAY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Did you ask him if he was going? I think it would be a good idea if you went. A chance to express your feelings and get some validation.

Looks like H and I are headed to Liberty, TX for a bike rally on our own. We may have a friend coming with us. I'm excited about it!

I'm so happy that you slept well. I'll let you slide on the workout just this once. LOL

Maybe you can have the MC call him and talk to him on the phone. He COULD BE embarrassed that he ran his mouth like he did and hasn't acted on it. Just my thoughts...

Yes, I asked him ... actually, I invited him. Told him I was going, and what time it was at, and invited him to go with me if he wanted to.

He didn't go.

He did fix the AC in one of our rental units this morning (not the one in debate), and is doing the bank run stuff ... we drove past each other as I was on my way back to work and he was headed to do the bank errands.

Anyway, the MC thinks you guys on here are going to put her out of business. I was teling her all about all the stuff I am trying to learn -- my things versus his things, acting out of code rather than reacting .... cause control cure ..... and she thinks you all are great. She said I seem a lot better off right now than I was when we first started seeing her.... she said we'd move sessions to every two weeks, and maybe to monthly if he still doesn't start coming. She thinks I'm doing great and you guys are great for me!

So, I owe you all a huge thatnks. Not that I didn't before ....

Just want to let you know you're awesome!

-AmI.

I'll take that! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm so glad that she saw the great things about you! I have no fear that you will continue to get better. You are a wonderfully amazing person!

KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!

So, I just heard from a friend who works with H.

She said he has been acting very "sneaky" at work ... taking calls on other phones, disappearing for little chunks of time (on duty!) .... she wants to get together to fill me in, but it's difficult since they work the same schedule. If she's off, he's off.

I have the GPS, but if an OW was meeting him somewhere, especially on duty, then I wouldn't know that there was anything wrong with it. And if he's taking calls on other phones, then ... I wouldn't have records or recordings. On-duty is the one time that I was certain I didn't have to worry .... thought he'd never compromise his career like that. I think I will do a little more checking things out.

This is a boundary -- no contact with OW, and no screwing around with any other OW -- and my boundary enforcement here will be to re-expose, to everyone in his agency. He might lose his job over it if he's messing around on-duty, so I'm going to get all of the information, first.

I'm feeling surprisingly calm at this new info. Maybe a delayed reaction....

Good for you! You've got your plan in mind! I think it's a good plan! You were there for me when I had to re-expose.

So, it sounds like he went undercover...I'm sorry AmI...I hope that you remain calm and keep in mind your plan...

Right now would be a good time to get a workout in...please, please keep busy until you get your ducks in a row...

You will be in my thoughts and prayers this weekend! Remember what MC said about you! You can do this! Keep cool!

Is some of the calm maybe coming from relief in the belief, Hey! This might just be about HIM, not me?

LOL

I have full faith in your detective skills...you, go, AmI...and I like that you already have contingency plans.

Lots of great self-care there...

Now, about your MC/IC...you're not paying her to reinforce our stuff...make her earn the session...ask questions, share fears (no matter what we've told you), blurt your feelings...ask for exercises to help with O&H and intimacy...focus her onto you...and no, this isn't easy!

Definitely keep going as IC...and yes, even after a year and a half, I felt anxiety, a little dread, before each session (which was twice a month mostly); and each time I walked away calmer, more hopeful and stimulated.

Can you still hear his recorded conversations in voice mail?

LA

Well, I'm not sure what's going on, really. His GPS is not very good on this new phone, but when it works, it is matching up with what he says, and there have been no calls to or from any of her numbers. I can still hear calls between him and dispatch, and access his voice mail. There has been nothing suspicious ....

So there's the possibility that he's using other phones (land lines or something?) or the possibility that he's messing around on-duty. I have to say that I can't imagine that for a second -- his career is SOOOO important to him. But then again, I wouldn't have imagined him having an affair for a second, either.

So, I don't really know what's going on except my friend that works with him thinks he's acting sneaky. I need to do some more snooping.


I did finally get the nerve up last night to present the MB weekend to him. He listened to what I said, at least looked at the first page. I asked him to take some time to think about it, and said that he didn't have to answer right away. So he didn't.

I've been trying to do some drive-bys. I have them written down so I can practice and know what to say. Is that crazy?


On the MC ... she really is terrible. She takes this very organic, general approach. Just a 'talk about how things are going and I will affirm you' kind of thing. I have asked for exercises, and she says, oh, keep doing what you're doing, you're doing such a great job. Tell her what I'm feeling or get upset, and it's just "you seem upset". Yeah! What can you do to help? "Well, as you keep working through it, you'll start feeling better...."

Blah.

If I keep going to an IC, it will not be her. I'm very disappointed in her approach and what feels to me like a lack of skills or tools. She's really nice, and friendly ... I like her personally, but she has not been at all effective as a counselor.

Gosh, I think I've ranted a little here ....
At least it's not Monday.

-AmI.

Something that I've been thiking about a lot recently is exposure.

His family and friends are already exposed to. So are his bosses and chain of comand, but most of the people at work do not know.

His family has been very suportive of me, but beyond the initial round of disaproval, they haven't really spoken to him about anythign recently. They don't want to "rock the boat" or "interfere". So I've been thiking a lot recently about ASKING them to 'interfere'. The people he's been talking to are not friends of marriage at all, and certainly have no stake in our marriage. So I'd like people who ARE friends of our marriage to be talking to him, as well. People he trusts and who can have a positive influence on him.

I am thinking about asking the men in his family for that kind of help, along with a few specific guys who he works with that he really admires.

I'll save the full-scale bomb-dropping type of re-exposure for if I find out he's screwing around again or if he refuses to work on making things better, but still stays in the house.

But would it help to do some mini-exposure and ask these guys who have some influence to step up and exercise that influence? I don't want them to take sides or be against him or fight with him. I just want them to be involved, act and speak to him out of their code and out of what's right. All of the guys I'm thinking of -- and there are a handful or so -- are people who would be friends of marriage (that phrase came from one of the books I've read, and I can't think of a better way to say it).


Any thoughts onthis sort of re-exposure?

Thanks.
-AmI.

Hi, I just wanted to touch base and see how you are doing. you sound really good, not like you are ranting. If you feel that way about the MC/IC, i would suggest another. I agree with LA about using that time for yourself.

You ARE doing a wonderful job! Way to go!

(((((AmI)))))

Thanks, Rin.

I have thought about trying to find another one ... but maybe I'm feeling a little jaded right now about whether or not they are any help. And here's a secret, silly thing ... I cringe at the thought of "therapist shopping" .... it makes me feel like I'm just trying to find someone to agree with me. I'm not sure how to explain it, but I feel the same way about "church shopping". It's a weird little hang-up that I have, I guess.

Maybe just an excuse....?


What do you think about the re-exposure idea? Asking for help fromthe people who could be influential -- some of whom already know and some who don't?


-AmI.

I'm all for re-exposure! I re-exposed when I found out there was C. I picked key people. See I didn't expose to his work first round, I did the second time along with a few other people! I think it helped of course he was soooo pissed off. Oh, well!

I think you need to think hard about some key people and maybe re-exposing to everyone all over again. Family, friends, the whole nine...

I think I want to re-expose to men who he respects, and is friends with, and ask them for their help.

I have a list of people, some who already know, some who don't. I want to start with BIL and FIL, but am very intimidated by asking them. Then there are a couple of people who grew up in his church with him, and a few really good guys who work with him (but not on his crew), one of whom was in our wedding.

I guess that I'm very, very nervous about his reaction. He will be pissed that I'm "getting people invovled in his business". That's not really my intent, though. I don't want to tell people just to tell them .... I want them to DO something. I want them to talk to him, exercise some of their influence on him, take the side of our marriage, of giving it a chance.

I'm not sure how to ask for that without it seeming (to him or them) like I want people to take sides, or be against him.

I'm sitting here bawling, scared to death about asking. I just am at the point where I need some help. So I'm going to ask for it. But I'm petrified. And he's going to be furious.

Starting with BIL and FIL tonight.

Please, please let me keep it together through all of this.

-AmI.

Tonight?

Are you saying that you now have proof of contact or another affair?

I'm for re-exposing when you are sure that this is what is perpetuating his wayward state of mind...I ask, because the state of mind can exist without the affair and I believe exposure wouldn't be appropriate without the behavior.

Hi!

As for therapist shopping...

Your next appt is already set for Friday? Why not make up a list of questions and statements...including, "I don't believe in you." And then quote your post above about your perception and ask for what you want.

Is she pro-marriage?
Is she in the business of bringing people together?
Who are her models and what is her agenda for YOUR marriage?

You probably asked her all that...I just didn't hear it plainly enough.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I like the prayer at the end of your last post...

"Please, please let me keep it together through all of this."

You, AmI, are all together...knowing that is really important in times of this much stress and uncertainty.

Your intent is...what?

Restate it to me, please.

Rash acts are not your intent. Know your intent...poke it to make sure it is what it is...

And state your feelings here, 'k? Specifically.

You're not alone, AmI.

LA