First, let me start by saying that I've benefitted greatly from lurking here. My communication skills have improved, not just in romantic relationships, but in ALL relationships simply from following Dr. Harley's concept of radical honesty and the policy of joint agreement.

But there is one area that I have a problem with and based on my understanding, must respectfully disagree with Dr. Harley. Maybe I've misunderstood something or maybe because I've dealt with infidelity in the past and still have an issue - I just don't get it. Please feel free to set me straight.

I've always thought that the choice to remain faithful was a personal choice and the sole responsibility of the individual. People are either faithful or unfaithful because of their own morals and their ability to have the integrity and maturity to live as they believe. But after reading Dr. Harley's concepts about infidelity, I feel like he puts the majority of the responsibility of remaining faithful on the spouse. Keeping your spouse faithful becomes your job instead of theirs. I don't like that! It seems more like babysitting than a mature and healthy relationship of equals. It becomes YOUR responsibility to keep them from doing what everybody with even a BASIC moral education understands is wrong!

I do understand the importance of meeting EN's and I think that if we lived in a vacuum, that would be ideal. But, in the real world in practice, I don't think it is possible to meet 100% of the needs of another 100% of the time. There will always be those little gaps. Real life intrudes, there are times when it's just not possible. Like dealing with sick or aging parents, personal health crises, etc that at least for a time becomes a primary focus and takes our attention away for a while. Hopefully, the couple are both mature enough to handle those problems when they arise and bend without breaking.

Maybe this is my own personal issue or maybe I'm just niave. The thing is, while I was not meeting my xwh's needs, he was not meeting mine. He used this as an opportunity to go elsewhere. Now, I'm not looking for a nomination for sainthood by any means, but I never thought about straying as a way to fulfill those unmet needs. I was too busy dealing with the situation at the time.

So, am I just old-fashioned, niave, or just have unrealistic expectations? Or some other choice not listed previously?

I vote for (a) old-fashioned, (b) naive, and (d) some other choice not listed previously.

Your expectations are realistic, I believe. Fidelity is possible, and many choose to remain faithful even in extremely unequal relationships which involve a whole lot more than "little gaps." The moral responsibility for our own choices does rest squarely and completely on our shoulders as individuals, not just as a couple.

You are "old-fashioned" because you believe in the value of fidelity and the reality of moral responsibility. (That's not a criticism, of course. I'm old-fashioned too.)

You are "naive" in the sense that you're missing the how of infidelity. The choice of whether or not to stray is not always presented in black-and-white terms, and many "old-fashioned" people get sucked into infidelity without understanding what they are doing or the forces which are working upon them. (Consider that the concept of an "emotional affair" is quite foreign to most people.) As the proverb says, "Let him who thinks he stands take heed, lest he fall." Start with a sympathetic ear from a friend of the opposite sex, with no thought of anything beyond "gee it sure feels good to talk about this." Throw in our human abilities of self-justification, rationalization, and revisionism. It doesn't take too long before we can find ourselves making a moral choice without even realizing that we've made a choice at all, let alone a moral one.

It is not our responsibility to keep our spouses faithful. It is "merely" our responsibility to honor our marital vows, which generally involve things like loving and cherishing. If we did our jobs properly, the temptations for our spouses to stray would be blunted. Yes, the temptations would still exist, and yes, the choice belongs to our spouses regardless of what we do our how powerful those temptations may be. But it is naive to think that we do not have some level of influence, and we bear our own responsibility for how much we choose to exercise that influence, regardless of how our spouses choose.

So the "other choice not listed previously" is that you are right in that you are not responsible for your xwh's infidelity. That is his alone, and I don't believe Harley would ask you to claim it for your own. However, he does ask that you take responsibility for your own behavior and that you recognize the impact it can have. In other words, you are responsible for what you do, and not for how anyone else responds. Their responses aren't always in accordance with your actions, since they've got wills of their own and other influences in their lives.

But don't be surprised if their reactions do follow "naturally" from your behavior.

Oh, and by the way, welcome! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Fraulein62,

Nein (haven't said that in years <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)! DO NOT change a thing about your beliefs. Your third paragraph -

"I've always thought that the choice to remain faithful was a personal choice and the sole responsibility of the individual. People are either faithful or unfaithful because of their own morals and their ability to have the integrity and maturity to live as they believe. But after reading Dr. Harley's concepts about infidelity, I feel like he puts the majority of the responsibility of remaining faithful on the spouse. Keeping your spouse faithful becomes your job instead of theirs."

- says it all.

Make no mistake, Harley's EN theory is great for creating the "warm & fuzzy" feelings of romantic love, BUT has nothing to do with whether or not an individual has a moral code and the personal integrity to follow it.

Gnome and Ron,

Thanks (or should I say Danke Schoen?!) for the candid replies. I was kind of hoping to get a male perspective on this because I know we women think so differently than you do.

I don't think I could compromise my moral beliefs without serious consquences. I like to be able to go to sleep with a clear conscience. So I guess that would make change impossible.

I know that I'm old fashioned and probably outdated, too. Or at the very least, it's the way that I feel sometimes. I read somewhere that the main reasons that men and women don't remarry again after divorce are: for women - financial independence. Many go back to school and get better jobs so that they don't need to rely on a man to support them ever again. And men: the reason is sex - because they can get it just about anywhere these days and don't need to remarry for SF. Speaking as a woman who is and always has been financially independent - I would rather be alone than to get involved on a "need" basis.

I am niave. Blame that one on the relationship with the first man in my life - my Dad. It is both a good and bad thing. My Dad was one of the "good guys" so I learned to trust from early on. Most of the time, it's a good thing but I haven't always figured out how to discern the trustworthy from the untrustworthy. In other words, I tend to believe what people tell me and not question it further.

I was disturbed when I read Harley's "no overnight travel without the spouse." Maybe because when my job requires overnight travel, fooling around would be the last thing on my mind. I thought to myself, do people really live this way? Am I that far behind the times? Maybe I should have done a better job of keeping an eye on my x.

A leash and collar come to mind... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Fraulein,

You are not the only one,evidenced already,that does not hold too much credence in the "EN's" described here.My STBXWH and I took the ENQ and talked about needs and I did a fantastic job meeting them but it made no difference to a man who had issues.It had nothing to do with me as it did him and how he dealt with those issues( still has not IMO).It's not only impossible to meet 100% of someone elses "needs" completely and all the time but you shouldn't try.It becomes "what can you do for me to make me happy" versus "how can we respectfully compliment and enjoy eachother's company as individuals".

You're neither old-fashioned nor naive.Just realistic.People who choose to cheat are trying to solve problems/boredom/insecurities,etc by seeking out other's who make them feel good at the time.But,time is the key to shedding that myth and showing true colors and agendas.