I noticed your sig says you and your H are both FWS. Is your "story" somewhere around?

I am Jean (FWW with current WH), nice to "meet" you.

Thanks

Jean...

I missed my page...is it too late? Is the white courtesy phone still available?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm so sorry your current H is a WH...great to meet you, too.

My story is on 2BNormal's thread...I would have to dig...I can show you my first post, though...my first thread...

Here it is.

Would you like to ask me anything specific? I am a former serial cheater...if that changes anything. I do know both sides, like you do, though...I read you when you first came on...felt a kinship.

Thank you for that.

LA

Hey Great! I was just doing one last MB scan before I turned in for the night. I'll be reading your story in the morning, so glad you saw my message!

I read your first thread (it was just that one page, right?). A few things struck me and I would like to throw them out there for your feedback.

1. I read that you felt like there wasn't as much support for your situation, possibly because you were a FWW. Do you still feel that way or have you found a niche here that works for you?

2. You said that you talked to your H all through your EA about the EA, did I read that right? If so, that is an uncanny similarity as I did the same thing. I told H every move I made towards the EA. I don't know what I expected him to do, but I was shocked at his indifference as I was falling in 'whatever' with someone else. Everyone knew about it, way before it got serious. H knew about it first (the contact between first love and I). Now I think back, didn't anybody thing to maybe call an engineer to try and put a stop to the trainwreck about to happen? (Yes, it was ultimately my responsibility, but I am surprised with my support group of enablers).

3. So you were the first in your marriage to bail from the fidelity train? Has your H just had the one affair after your D-day? Where are you two now?

4. How did you stop feeling like you deserved this?

What I thought was support was enabling...as you found in real life, I found here on the boards wasn't tolerated. I got to see how much I felt left out after scrounging up all I had in me to post...and experience and re-experience that shame.

I projected a lot onto other posters...wondered what they had I didn't...and those two posts by JL and Pep changed my life.

Two posts.

Ownership and DJs...

I couldn't talk myself around Pep or JL...too insightful and experienced...I can see me trying, wiggling for all I'm worth...when I'm actually asking a stranger to verify my pain...yes, my entitlement remained, not in full form, but it was there.

So, yes...I felt I wasn't given sweet support and comfort because I had messed up too badly...that was reserved for faultless BS's...and you know what? It was that attitude, choosing that harmful perspective, I had been choosing all my life.

I stopped posting for months...felt like a thread-killer...an outcast...invisible...and not. Kept reading and working; and began to choose a new perspective. No judgment. Not out nor in...that changed the rest for me.

I'm startled that you did what I did about talking about the EA every step of the way. You believed your H was indifferent...I believed mine was relieved, again. No one else knew of it, which is where we differ.

I'm curious about your FOM not being a clean slate...would you consider he was? He had an image of the you as you were then...not the years in between?

There are no engineers to stop a trainwreck...until after it does. I was driving the train straight at my H, trying to make him stop me from feeling lonely, empty.

I bailed on fidelity before we were married, as did my H...and EA's continued to come and go...my H had an online one...and then I did...lots of messy stuff...caught in that pattern of tit for tat, back and forth...

Horrible way to live.

My H could not see himself as anything but faithful...even when he had his A...he didn't call it one. Was surprised and angered when the shrink did. I was the problem--the repeat offender...with his permission in hand...I doubly betrayed him...getting his permission each time...arm twisting so that I wouldn't bear all the blame.

My life was based on blame...so was his...living true doesn't take a lot of effort now, since we removed blame.

Deserving finally packed its bags and left when I got that I lived externally...and stopped doing that. Entitlement is a pattern I've had from childhood...how I compensated for wrongs done to me...indulged myself for false cures and balances. Now I don't see wrongs done to me...I see humans who choose...at least, in most ways...still struggling with my FOO...but my kids, husband and friends don't do me wrong.

I had to replace some important beliefs in myself...

people are not replaceable...
my self-betrayal gave permission to betray others...
my self-image was not my self...

One thing we didn't do that you both did...we didn't separate until my WH's A...and we didn't do that until he hid it...said it was over and continued it. It was a boundary I didn't know I had...the night OW called our house...I told WH to get out...and he said he had nowhere to go...I said get out anyway. The next day he called from work to say he was going out to watch a ballgame at a bar and I said he had to move out that night, instead...and he did.

My H didn't tell me to move out...though I planned to during my A...and then I didn't. My H said he was moving out twice and didn't...I did the ol' "I can't live without you" cake-eater stuff. It was my truth. Now it isn't...

My H is a SA...he's been working with a counselor for a year and half...stopping his addictions and ridding himself of fantasies in his head. I've been working on me...my addictions, my patterns...and we've been doing communication exercises...the 15 hours of UA; PORH and are working toward POJA, slowly.

We did POJA to kiss good morning, goodbye and goodnight...and have stuck to it...breaking my own addiction to him (which I discovered was a viable addiction in Oct of '04) was critical. Not continuing our pursuer/withdrawer patterns...and respecting each other as separate and equal has made our current life like a team, no one curing/fixing the other. I found all the ways I abuse and he has been claiming the way he did...slowly but surely. And I put down my measuring instruments...which made all the difference.

I examined and owned my permission to create resentment in myself...and vowed to not make new ones; my choice. I listen for DJs, inside and out, and stay aware not to assume or mindread.

I found an inverse power in my entitlement...I could use that same intensity and put it towards my own redemption...which was the basis for my personal recovery.

Did you find that you were willing to do Plan A, expose, endure and research more because you had been wayward...and wondered if you would have stuck through all of it if you hadn't? I wonder about that...for a second...until I remember it is useless...I was, I did, and I chose.

LA

HERE is the thread. LA's post is about midway down on the first page. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

{LA - I never noticed your post from 4/29 to that thread until today..if you have questions, I posted to it and bumped up the thread.}

Thanks so much for the reply.

More willing to plan A, expose and try MBing?
I knew that what BH had done to me during my A didn't help our marriage at all, and MB was the complete opposite of his approach. I do believe that MB would have stopped my A while it was still a long distance phone thing. But I literally sat on the couch on the phone with FOM while BH was 2 feet from me on the Xbox.

That is one of my 'moral high horse' issues. I informed my H everystep of the way, my family knew, the neighbors knew. That was one of our premarital verbal agreements, if you are thinking of straying, you tell your partner so they get some input into that life changing decision. My WH was sneaking around, lying about working late, buying condoms on the sly...

On the FOM not being a clean slate
FOM used to say that I had turned out exactly as he would have wanted me to. We dated from my age 16-21. When we got back in touch with each other, it was 11-12 years later. There was instant familiarity, no surprises, we had evolved very predictably. So I could not have started fresh with him at all. And I truly believe that I never would have had an A with a stranger. I really don't like meeting new people.

Why we are physically separated
I finally left after months of having an H in the house who I was invisable to, and a OM on the phone that found me fasciating. I really didn't know if OM would ever show up in real life, but since my H seemed indifferent, I didn't see any point in staying. H never asked me to stay, he did ask how I could do this to our family, but he never said he loved me and wanted me. When H became the WH, I did everything short of duct tape to keep him here. I did not want him to walk out thinking I was indifferent. In trying to do everything the opposite of how it was done to me, I have given WH the impression that I am on a self righteous stance "At least I am fighting for my family" thing.

2 x 4's welcome.

I don't have any 2x4's, except for me, losing this thread. I spent the afternoon looking through lists for it...instead of bookmarking it at work and at home.

Yeah, I am great computer help, aren't I?

::::

I read this at work and my first feeling was resentment...I hear a distinct filter...others should live as you do...so that you can connect. And your heart smashed from broken promises.

I believe we very much were the same, Jean. I went for the same trap, feeling that moral high ground...when it really was more of me crushing pain into my H as I felt he was doing to me.

The differences come in with my having children before marriage...and you waiting for a long time married to have them. How this was going on with small children...still is...and I have no clue how that would have affected my choices, my pain levels...my resentment levels.

I feel like I'm looking at my sister here...my counterpoint...who does stuff right when I am wrong...and there's a strong message for me in your life for my own.

I connect to you like a twin in the obsessive thinking, focus on H, expectations, permission to resent, judge and having no clue as to boundaries, my power or my limits.

LA

I didn't get a clear message from your post, but it made me tear up. That kind of scares me. Thanks for digging around in my head, it is very busy but very lonely in there.

See! I didn't have a clear message...lol!

You got it!

Yeah, you're not alone by any perspective but your own. And we choose our perspective.

You phrase things about yourself really well..."it is very busy but very lonely in there."

That's really cool to read.

I guess I'll offer you this. When I said "I connect to you like a twin in the obsessive thinking, focus on H, expectations, permission to resent, judge and having no clue as to boundaries, my power or my limits" I maybe should have used the past tense. I don't focus on H, have traces of obsessive thinking with MB; revoked my permission to resent, expect, and judge; and made my standards and bundaries, accepted my power and love my limits.

And I haven't been lonely since.

Any of that appealing to ya?

LA

Sounds good to me. I know I struggle with the permission to resent alot. I know resentment does me no good. But if I am allowed to resent, then it must mean that I am less wrong.

So then I tell myself to only worry about MY reflection and let everyone else handle their own inventory. But then I get resentful that I have to over analyze everything and everbody else just gets a free pass to do whatever feels good.

And I can carry on that circular thinking for a reeaallly long time (and since I am so obsessive, I can think in circles so fast, it makes my head spin).

I'm turning in for the night, but I would love to continue this later, until you get bored with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You got to your payoff in resentment really fast. I don't think your obsessive thinking is all unhealthy...just mostly. Same with self-analysis.

You feel less wrong when you resent.

What if there is no right or wrong in concern to you? Would that help revoke your permission to resent, in order to artifically be right?

Why do you choose to see others living a free pass?

Do you really think that is possible, if we are equal and wonderfully made?

What if you seeing you (that analyzing reference) has a lot of joy in discovery...a welcome home feeling...where you tear up because you've been abandoning yourself for so long? No have-to's in that, is there?

Turning in for the night, huh...well, I think you've solved something for me. I ask everyone to turn inside so much, I might be a sedative.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're a fascinating, full and amazing human...no boredom here.

LA

I don't think my need to resent applies to my other relationships - just WH.For some reason, I can't apply my resentment free theory to WH.

I learned that resentment is unhealthy for me in AA when I sobered up. For years, I have lived resentment free. The theory that works for me is from the Buddhist teachings. I feel that I get pissy when I am not getting what I want. That my pain is caused by greed. I am not talking big greed, just basic toddler greed. So I have pretty much trained myself to expect nothing from anyone. I do not give (usually) if I am secretly expecting something in return.

So I am thinking about what I wanted from WH that I did not get. It is more than the marriage and all the benefits from that. What I really wanted was absolution for my sins, the affair. And since he did what he did and left, I did not get that forgiveness. That is what triggers my greed and fear mechanism.

Then I tell myself that WH's ability to forgive is not the meter of my repentance. Plus, I truly believe that he does know I was repentant, he admits he revoked his forgiveness only after he started his own affair. And I know that WH is not the final judge on the status of my soul, I do believe that the Big Guy has forgiven me.

Here is a little warped tidbit. I am jealous that WH gets to enjoy his affair, without the consuming guilt and shame that I experienced. When I left, I bought a $600, 30 year old camper. I lived in that for two years, it was my scarlet A, but it had Winnebago on the side instead. I thought it was appropriate for me to live like pond scum since I was behaving as such. There was a black cloud over me for two years, that cloud of shame.

And then that self righteous sounding stuff comes back. At least I had the decency to live like scum, to admit what I was doing, to make myself feel subhuman because I had made a mistake. YOU don't even have the decency to act like you are doing anything wrong.

What if my 'repentance' was not real, just a method to make myself feel 'holier than thou'? Am I one of those annoying people who smoked for 20 years, then quit, and am very verbal about how disgusting that habit is now that I don't do it??

I'm working on a longer response, but have a meeting to attend soon.

I want to ask you this:

"Then I tell myself that WH's ability to forgive is not the meter of my repentance."

Do you truly believe your WH's choice to forgive is ability based?

I challenge you on the resentment...though I agree WH is your Achilles heel target...because you did the trailer, kept the honest promise...yes, these are the choices we make to protect ourselves from ourselves, fostering resentment in a twisted penance.

I remember.

Two years of shame...cloud seems to me to sound external. How have you dealt with your internal shame all your life?

LA

Yes, I do believe that forgiveness is an action, thus based on ability. And I need to address a big issue on this forgiveness thing. Part of the problem is, I don't believe WH when he says he didn't forgive me. I do not believe that you can act like he acted for a year without forgiveness.

He says he realized he didn't forgive me AFTER he was banging OW. There is still a timing issue of how did he justify in his mind, the progression of the affair. I think while he was banging OW, he had a realization of how nasty this whole business is, then he thought "D@mn, I can't believe my wife was capable of being this low". That is my theory anyway.

As far as my shame and how I deal with it, I have psoriasis <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, I may be an egomaniac, but there is not alot left that I carry shame for. I have made amends to those I have wronged, there is no one that I could not look in the eye. The two things that I still have shame for is my affair and the fact that I never completely quit smoking while pregnant with YD. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Everything else, I try to fix as I go. I did the big 4th step in AA and I never want to accumulate a list like that again.

But the affair and the smoking (you have no idea how embarrassed I am to be typing that in this public place), those are two things that I can't undo and show such severe flaws in my character.

Back to the forgiveness thing, I don't want to be out of luck (spiritually speaking) because I deceived someone incapable of forgiveness. I even had a small thread about "pardon revoked" or something similar. Many FBH gave me input on the forgiveness aspect from a man's point of view.

So what changes is WH says one day "I did forgive you" or "I forgive you now"?? Nothing changes, I still have my scarlet A. And that is really OK (I just want WH to wear his badge too-but I have to stop being the hall moniter of his spiritual path).

You are brilliant with images...hall monitor of his spiritual path...psorasis...so many of them in your thread.

Your posts show you are aware when you feel your inner child at work on your emotions...

"Back to the forgiveness thing, I don't want to be out of luck (spiritually speaking) because I deceived someone incapable of forgiveness"

Why would God make someone incapable of forgiveness?

Was your WH diagnosed as a narcisist?

Why do you have your Scarlett A still?

What did you think of your choices to go without...holding a promise to leave with nothing...holding your promise to honesty...and breaking your vows?

(I had to laugh a little about the verbally agreed to, if one of us leaves, it's with nothing...because before we were married, WE had an agreement which worked better...if you leave, you have to take the children with you.)

LA

Why would God make someone incapable of forgiveness?
I don't think God would, I think that my WH made up that reason as justification for his affair. But as long as he is saying that, I have to keep mulling it over (it is my duty as a good little obsessive)

Was your WH diagnosed as a narcisist?
No, because he is too narcissitic to seek an opinion! He does have many of the check list symptoms and my friends who are mental health professionals-they call him a narcissist.

Why do you have your Scarlett A still?
Indelible ink, like losing your virginity, a permanent change.

What did you think of your choices to go without...holding a promise to leave with nothing...holding your promise to honesty...and breaking your vows?
I feel good that I stuck to all the bargains we made, I just broke the big vow. I informed BH before hand, well before hand that I was considering waywardness, as per our agreement. And when I left, I left with what I came with, clothes and books. My self righteous thing is coming out, let me shelve that for now.

(I had to laugh a little about the verbally agreed to, if one of us leaves, it's with nothing...because before we were married, WE had an agreement which worked better...if you leave, you have to take the children with you.)
Hee Hee

"I don't think God would, I think that my WH made up that reason as justification for his affair. But as long as he is saying that, I have to keep mulling it over (it is my duty as a good little obsessive)"

This isn't making sense to me...because you said he was incapable of forgiveness and now I hear you saying he is withholding it to justify his affair.

One goes to capability, ability-based, and the other as to choice...we can be capable and choose not to...you seem to be saying he's incapable and choosing not to...could just be me...

There's something here in this, Jean...I promise.

"Indelible ink, like losing your virginity, a permanent change."

No. For me it is past tense...permanently. Being a serial cheater didn't change me...I changed from being a serial cheater.

"I feel good that I stuck to all the bargains we made, I just broke the big vow." Does this feel at all like something unhealthy to you...that you will keep a bargain with the devil to triumph evil? I am not pursuing this to harm or shame you in anyway...I see this as a pattern...your decision making process since D-Day, and I'm concerned because it is a false power...which means, you don't have access to any of your real power as long as you believe the validity of the false one.

As far as narcissistic traits...is there any child you know of who does not have them? Four years old or younger?

Human labels do more damage going on than coming off; unlike the sticky kind.

LA

Interesting, I like it, I am not sure that is the case with me, but I'll mull it over.

If I said that I think WH is incapable of forgiveness, I misspoke. I am not sure that I have ever felt that he was incapable, that is why is revocation of said forgiveness was surprising to me. I think that WH is making a decision to take that stance now because it benefits him. As it benefitted him previously, to say that he forgave me.

I don't quite get what you are saying with the devil triumph evil thing. I think I 'did my time' as it were, to make myself feel less guilty. I think I keep harping on it now, because I am trying to elicit guilt from WH. And if that doesn't work, I get the moral high horse position anyway. Which, by the way, I am realizing does me absolutely no good. No one is keeping score and I am hindering my progress by running in a race by myself so I can gloat when I win (running across the finish line when no one else is anywhere around).

So do I want to feel good, free and happy, or do I want to look good, free and happy. I say I don't care what other people think of me and that is pretty obviously a crock of poo. Hmmm, learn something new every day.

Eeewwweeee...crock of poo.

Can you take that one-self race back and back further...like when you went ahead of time for the birth control pills...can you go back before even that and find out where making mistakes was tantamount to being one...to be avoided at all costs?

Or...

Do you have a very different young-self perspective?

Does comparison play a lot in your early life? That learning from others' mistakes was the smartest thing to do?

LA