Nope, same perspective as an adult and I am sure this could get into some very uncomfortable inner child crap. I am starting to tear up again. I am going to take a bath and try to figure out how I decided I was defined by my failures and mistakes instead of my successes and accomplishments.

I'll come back to this in a bit.

Use some good smelly bath salts, Jean...

LA

"how I decided I was defined by my failures and mistakes instead of my successes and accomplishments."

How about being defined by what you saw in yourself, without a single action or a word spoken...

No one else has the power to define you, Jean...they can't. Not in God's design. Only you do...and that's through discovery, not accomplishment.

You don't have to prove self to self...your job is to accept self as self...and I gotta tell you, it is simple and far, far from easy.

Proving seems like a shortcut.

You're not alone. Where do you think I speak of this? From me...my self...past...and beliefs.

Soul to soul, Jean...

Your mental hamsters…I see where you repeat what was said before as if it is happening now…and from Oct to Dec, you jumped into the future…focused on, unleashed the hamsters to run wild in the future…

Yet each of your posts is a report of today...each present, assessing...I think you use past for a purpose and future for a purpose...self-manipulation.

What do you think?

You don't need smelling salts, right? Lavender BATH salts...I just looked up and went dyslexic.

LA

I really don't like tub soaking, I have never been able to get into it like other people seem to.

I don't like the inner child stuff, I hear myself saying to my inner child "Buck up, its over, stop whining". I am not very compassionate to my inner child. I can go into the family of origin message if needed, but to sum it up, the moral of my childhood was
"it doesn't matter what it feels like as long as it looks OK to outsiders"

We were 'tainted' to start with, my siblings and I all share that common feeling. All of us have always felt that we do not measure up in society's opinion because we were trained to hide the truth. Our shame comes from very early practice.

So skipping to adulthood, let's get specific.

What am I saying/feeling that someone wouldn't want to hear their best friend say. I can't tell anymore, I am sure that I would not want to hear my friend talk about themselves the way I do. But on the other hand, I consider myself to have some warped sense of self esteem, sometimes it is over inflated although I look like the poster child for low self esteem. (Again, we have to see what it looks like)

A friend of mine called me on the carpet about my use of the word wh0re when describing my previous lifestyle. It was an interesting conversation. It offended my friend, but it obviously has some pay off for me.

And the more we talk (we as in Loving Anyway and Jean) the more I feel like the end result is me realizing that I am a complete whack job and WH deserves so much better than me and this really is all my fault anyway.

Extreme thinking is another one of my big problems, its all or nothing.

Uhm, yeah...I go with the extreme thinking problem...

Jean! You're not a whack job. You CAN'T be. Truly.

And yes, you do have a flipped poor self-esteem...which is totally reasonable...from one sister to another...my background is what would the neighbors think...same style...don't ask, don't tell...I was responsible for my parents' image...

Yeah.

I get it.

I'm not a whack job. You're not either.

Grandiosity and inferiority are the same thing...from the same place. You're more creative...you alternate.

You have great rhythm.

You would never say "Buck up and stop whining" to your DDs...would you?

Nope.

So what did you do that was so bad, so darn unforgivable when you were little? When you feared? Was fearing the crime?

And does that mean you don't wanna talk with me no more?

LA

Of course I want to keep talking to you, that is part of my inferiority/grandiosity thing - I love talking about myself!

But the childhood stuff, I don't know. I can point to specific things, big turning points in my psyche, but I should have gotten past that stuff with years of obsessing and dissecting it.

Here is one of those big turning points that my mind keeps coming back to today.I don't know what I learned from this experience, but it must have been relevant since my brain really wants to look at it:

I was pretty young, maybe 7 or 8 or so. My father was beating my mother, which was not unusual. For some reason, on this occasion, I wasn't going to hide and let it happen without trying to interfere. I had a baton handy, so I raised it to strike my father. He looked at me with such disgust and betrayal in his eyes. How dare I turn on him, I was his favorite. I think I thought if he loved me enough, my declaration that he was wrong would make him stop.

But me telling him to stop, whether it was by crying, raising my childish weapon, hiding or screaming, nothing made him stop. Maybe I learned to believe that he didn't love me enough to listen to me and stop hurting us. But if I believe that my father didn't love me, well that screws up all kinds of stuff in my head.

Maybe I translate all that to WH now, that is why I am so determined to have him stop being wrong - to prove that I am loveable.

Well, that just gave me an actual headache and I am not going to cry because my YD has just crawled into my bed. I am going to snuggle with her and call it a night.

See you later LA. And Thanks - I think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

"but I should have gotten past that stuff with years of obsessing and dissecting it."

No shoulds, 'k? That's those others looking in on us crap.

And no, obsessing and dissecting just feeds the mental hamsters on their wheels. I can't help using your images...they rock.

If you want to take this journey...and I sense you've wanted so much to take it your whole life...then you will have your answers...

You were your abusive father's favorite...had false protection and power...made you more than a child, less than an adult...and no, you have to go back further to get where you left self behind to become your abusive father's favorite.

Would you consider in your safe, adult mind...that what you saw as not loving you enough to stop hurting you (the whole us was you and sis and mom together) was through your child-like eyes...and in reality, you got the message that real love was hurting someone so they would stop hurting you?

That anger was the end of love...love was all powerful and completely powerless...

Your father loved you...but he feared life more. He feared more.

Have you considered that you are the one with the white knight syndrome? Rescue is love...someone saving you from being you. You saving someone else from being them.

Capable and incapable would be big trigger words for you.

I wrote this in a file where I've put your quotes...long before you wrote this last post...which is you being you, fully, and seeing you, not cutting you up.

Accepting you, the infant, the toddler, the 7/8-year-old (age of accountability); the tween, the teen...all are very important...because early on, you abandoned self...you made a false self...as so many of us did...and all you are doing is getting off the grime, the silt, the layers of a false creation, and finding the marvelously created self which is you, all along.

No ego, depression, extremes problems at all...

All developed coping skills...and coping skills kill relationships...

So we stop poisoning ourselves and begin learning living skills...and thrive.

"Either way, I will be OK, mediocrity is not an option."

Mediocrity is where all connection is...in that glorious middle, wholesome place of 90 degrees...where adult experience says, nothing to the extreme...either end...

Glory is in commonality, owning our limits and cherishing our choices...separate and equal to everyone.

God's design. It's gorgeous...worth obsessing and dissecting...not selves.

I'm gonna take that scapel out of your hands, Jean. Know why? Because when you cut you, I hurt. We're connected. You aren't alone.

How's that for grandiosity?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

and in reality, you got the message that real love was hurting someone so they would stop hurting you?
No, I don't think I have that problem. I think I chose mates that I know will hurt me and if they stop-it means they love me.

Have you considered that you are the one with the white knight syndrome
Definately, I was thinking last night, I have never had a relationship with someone who had it all together. Again, if I can make you change for the better, if I rescue you, you will love me. And someone who has it all together - what would they need me for?

and coping skills kill relationships
i have always prided myself on my high tolerance for assinine behavior in my partners. I often say, that if I had just dug another pond in the yard, I wouldn't have had the affair. I went to counseling and clergy, but it honestly never occured to me to see if H would go to counseling with me.

I was thinking last night about pedestals that I put people on and how I view being dissapointed in someone as not being worthy of their love. I think that whole 'if dad had loved me enough, he wouldn't have hurt mom' thing, has become the crux of feeling like a failure now. If H loved me enough, my children wouldn't be in this pain.

I want to apologize to my mom, but I realize how twisted that is. It is that grandiosity thing that a small child should have protected a grown woman from a 200lb man. I failed then, maybe that is the source of my original shame. But where did I get the idea that I should have taken that task?

I have to admit, I am nervous about having you, a stranger, messing around in my head. But, I realize that this wouldn't be the first time and I usually have to pay money to have strangers cleaning my cages. That is the all or nothing again. If you have some counseling initials behind your name, you must know what you are talking about. Many people in my social circle or mental health professionals, and they are some of the most confused people I know.

And of course, I had the urge to call WH last night (I didn't though) and let him know I was figuring out what my core problem is, so he can come home now. And I then thought, if I figure out this core issue, I will be able to have a functional healthy relationship and I won't want WH anymore.

"And of course, I had the urge to call WH last night (I didn't though) and let him know I was figuring out what my core problem is, so he can come home now. And I then thought, if I figure out this core issue, I will be able to have a functional healthy relationship and I won't want WH anymore."

Yes, if you're defective, then you can fix yourself; hence, fix everything. Have you noticed where you're allergic to the present?

You jump ahead and behind...and our brains only know present...so when you do your if-only's ponderings, you'll experience emotions as if those thoughts are happening real-time...and when you do your what-ifs, like thinking about being healthy and whole and deducing that then you won't want WH...your brain thinks that's happening in the present.

And yep, I did this a lot. I was a timekeeper...with the past...and a future-jumper...couldn't stay present...and now that is what I do most.

No, I have no credentials behind my name...none. This is what I've learned from experiencing it first hand, through therapy and books, and most of all, MB.

"i have always prided myself on my high tolerance for assinine behavior in my partners."

This would be a big betrayal to self...the kind of false pride which gives you that swing in between inferiority (you're not enforcing your boundaries because you don't deserve boundaries) and grandiosity, because you're bigger than they are.

Choosing your perspective to be set to equal and present, totally human is a big step to getting your self.

And deep breaths.

Lots of them.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You have total control over your head...your beliefs and thoughts. Nobody can really mess in it...you choose what you believe...and from what I've seen on your thread, where most give you advice, you consider and take or discard, respectfully. I see the part where you automatically believe WH, as I did mine, without realizing he has his own truth and you, in God's design, retain your part...which is choosing to take his words as The truth or just his truth.

Same here with me. Knowing that we left our selves behind first goes a long way to healing from betrayal...

You're already getting the power of your perspective...what signals love to you...how much you view your self through others...not being worthy of their love if...feeling rejected when...feeling pain from others...

Now you just have to know what is real and what isn't...you have die-hard expectations of what will happen...based on years of assumption and mindreading...you need that hopper on your head with your own thoughts...the automatic ones...so you can not immediately react to them, but sift through them and contemplate...okay, this looks like rejection to me...is it? Maybe only half coming in from the outside and half from my inside?

Hmmm.

Gentle pondering...not with scalpel.

The biggest draw for me in what I've read in your thread is the belief in security of the DJ...not what you say, but what you think...permission to do this is what I got slammed for when I first arrived...you read it...and this was what changed my life.

I had the rescue syndrome...so many experiences as you have had...I'll be sharing them with you...but what I didn't see for months in your thread was anyone calling you on your DJs for your own sake...for the freedom and responsibility and love of getting those beliefs and permissions out of you.

Rescuing is disrespectful...pedastalling, living externally, mirroring other adults and using them as mirrors...all need and thrive on DJs. And all under the perspective of generosity, kindness, tolerance, love and living right.

Would you like to apologize to your mom for not protecting her, or be really angry with her for not protecting you and your sister? She did divorce...but did she continue to betray you by still loving him? Any parallels going on for you here...past overlapping present, with daughters near the age of what you were?

Knowing we are struggling in a situation that makes sense to struggle in helped me to give myself slack where I needed it...hey, this might not be coincidence, hmm?

Have you considered his affair with GF as his revenge affair...the one he had when you were having yours?

LA

Rescuing is disrespectful...pedastalling, living externally, mirroring other adults and using them as mirrors...all need and thrive on DJs. And all under the perspective of generosity, kindness, tolerance, love and living right.
I think this one needs to be on my fridge. I know better so do what I say and if you don't then you must not love me and then I am unworthy. So do I want to be right or do I want to be happy. Well, if everyone would admit I am right, I would be happy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Would you like to apologize to your mom for not protecting her, or be really angry with her for not protecting you and your sister? She did divorce...but did she continue to betray you by still loving him? Any parallels going on for you here...past overlapping present, with daughters near the age of what you were?
I can't be, or won't be angry at my mom. My DJ with her is that I would not have expected her to be strong enough to protect us. She did continue to love him and that validated my position in being the only kid that had an allegiance to him. (When my parents divorced, I was the only kid that moved to Dads). And I am sure I have some screwed up reverse Oedipus complex in why I was doing all the 'work' of being the surrogate wife, but Mom could show up and turn everything upside down. This caused me to feel very inadequate.

Have you considered his affair with GF as his revenge affair...the one he had when you were having yours?
I have never considered his dating during the separation as cheating or an affair. He was with many woman during the separation including the one GF that lasted about a year. I don't consider any of that as revenge affair or any other affair. It was just him enjoying his freedom and easily moving on.

I hear you fully on the being right issue.

At one point, I told my H, when he said I was right, it was better than sex.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I get it.

You can choose to live or die emotionally by it. I prefer not living without right or wrong.

About dating while separated...I had to square my truth from facts. Separated is still married. You know this. Because you didn't see anything wrong with him dating...that he was free when you were separated before, then why is there anything wrong with him dating OW now that you're separated again?

I found when I selectively decided right or wrong, that I lived a lot in fantasy. So did my H. If we didn't feel married, why act it? Feelings come and go...rely on fact to keep yourself grounded. This was a core problem in our marriage...living from feelings instead of from standards.

To operate from your current belief, marriage would be a state of mind, wouldn't it?

LA

I think I need to figure out whether I am like this in all my realtionships, or just with WH. I'll poll my social circle and get back to you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Apparently, my kids have inherited this need to be right. This morning, 6yo D and I had a discussion about the light on the aquarium, she wanted it off, I wanted it on. Here is how that went down.

Mom: Even if the fish don't need the light, the plants need the light.

6yo : Why are there real plants in there, aren't they going to get overwatered?

Mom:: They are aquatic plants, like the plants in the bottom of rivers, lake and oceans.

6yo: Well, if they are used to be at the bottom of the river, they don't have light down there, so we can turn the light off here.

LOL! Oh, I love the way DD2 thinks.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, I'm not gonna wait for a social poll...only what you think matters to me, 'k?

Back to the forgiveness thing...

"he is saying that his affair was partly caused by his inability to forgive me."

I'm still not seeing how his inability to forgive you after he started bopping OW changes anything for you.

You say "But I carry so much shame, I have decided I am not entitled to divorce my WH for his current affair."

How does your shame link to his lack of forgiveness?

I hear your WH saying it was HIS inability to forgive which gave HIM permission to have an A...smacks of resentment, entitlement and that key lack of respect...how do you make this about you? How does it make you think he revoked his forgiveness...instead of him lying to himself and to you, saying he forgave?

And you said "I need my guilt, it will keep me on the right path. But I think my guilt stunts my growth and WH takes advantage of that fact."

Could this payoff, your belief your guilt holds you to the right path...is biting your own butt? Your choice to not have an A, ever again, will keep you from cheating again. What more does guilt do than that?

Yeah, I'm still working through your thread...it's a great read.

LA

I would like your permission to bump your pardon revoked thread...by posting about your BH dating while you were separated...

What do you think?

LA

That's fine, I don't mind at all.

Thank you...done.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

You're right LA. My shame is independant of WH's ability to forgive. My shame is as much about what I did to myself as to anyone else. Or maybe it is shame that I feel for what I let myself become, and guilt for what I did to my family.

I need to believe that WH did forgive (as much as anyone could). I was just thinking today about what our life looked like this time last year. I just can't (or won't) believe that he was pretending. I know what it feels like to hold resentment, and he just didn't look like that.

But anyway, I'll never know and it can't matter.

And I will have to figure out how to convince myself that I do deserve a happily ever after.

I wanted to know what shame you carried long before the A...before your marriage...and you said you didn't.

If shame is a sudden, new sensation, how do you know it's rivelts and curves so well? How do you wear it in a scarlett A if it is a foreign and new matter?

How do you need from it absolution outside of yourself?

What amends did you do for yourself?

It can't matter? You believe you need your WH to forgive you.

In your thread, you do a lot of insightful stuff...

Guilt is not living up to other people's expectations...shame is not living up to your own.

LA

Bumping to catch Jean's eye.

LA

I have been rattling around in my brain and have come up with another theory.

On this shame thing, yeah, I have it for the A and for the smoking thing. I don't know that I have as deep seated original shame as I thought. Yeah, I feel we were a little tainted as children, but I know intellectually, that we are not damaged goods.

I think that my shame thing is part of a larger martyr thing. I think I should have this shame so I look a certain way that is appropriate to society. And society will say "stop beating yourself up, you made a mistake, you tried to fix it, go forth and be happy". I may need society's permission to be happy. I think I may be secretly happy, but that would not be 'appropriate' for a woman who had done what I did.

And WH feeds right into this. We were talking about finances and the spousal support that he would want to decrease if I made more money. He said "I did not leave you so you could financially benefit from it". If we get the SS and CS set, I could refi the house and lower the payment and have extra $$ every month. He doesn't like that. And that is his problem, not mine. But, I do the martyr thing, thinking it will make him change his thinking.

The payoff for the shame filled martyr routine is this: people have lower expectations of me since I am an emotionally fragile person who only lives to serve her family and does nothing for herself. And since people expect less of me, I have more freedom. I may be a complete sham. I may be a really selfish manipulating person who is just playing everybody so I can do what I want in life.

I don't really think that I am that diabolical. I think I just hate dissapointing people so I need them to have low expectations of me. So that way, I can really dazzle them when I pull off some 'normal person' success.

And this might all be a bunch of bunk. Intellectually, I don't think anyone really expects less or more of me. I have a really supportive family. They probably think I am just a regular joe and all this mental manipulation is all in my head because no one really knows that I am a whack job. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am seriously considering what the payoff is for my marytrdom, that is today's theory.