Ok, I've been pondering this question for a while, so I figured I'd see what everyone else thinks.

I have questioned the whole "Why did this happen". And the two main answers I get are "Because the most important EN's probably weren't being fulfilled" and "Affairs happen out of pure selfishness of the WS."

So my question....if a spouse is selfish, what do EN's have to do with anything? Wouldn't a selfish spouse/person want as much as they could get? And wouldn't they think it would be great to get it from as many people as they can wherever they can and as much as they can?

I'm just worried that just b/c I am fulfilling my H's important EN's doesn't mean he won't want more. That is what selfish people do, they get as much as they can of something they like.

What do you all think??

--Sarah

Hey Sarah all you can do is your best. If your H is pathological and really so selfish there is nothing you can do. If he is a real man and getting plenty of admiration for his achievements and a nice amount of SF, you'll be fine.

It's amazing (and somewhat pitiful), but one good night in the sack makes us happy campers, usually, for a good 48 hours!

Here's my take on it.

Everyone has ENs.

Everyone has selfish impulses.

A WS is acting on a selfish impulse *whether their ENs were being met or not*.

Filling ENs can and does improve the odds that both partners are invested in the marriage relationship..a person may be less inclined toward affair behavior if they are adequately invested in the marriage.

Not in every case.

It is good to give our spouse what they need because we care for them and we have a vested interest in the marriage.

It will not stop a person from having an affair if they do not make a personal decision that this is not an acceptable option under any circumstances and guard their boundaries accordingly.

So..is there any connection between As and ENs..I would say yes..but not as a cause or a solution.

Better to say..there is a connection between ENs being met..and both partners being satisfied in the marriage.

I don't think A's happen because people's EN's aren't being met, or because they are selfish. At least that's not the root cause.

To me, the root cause is that they are unhappy. When they are unhappy, they start to do things to try and get happy. They experiment, so to speak. Some do drugs, some drink, some do charity, some start to work out, etc. Some have A's.

The part about EN's means if you want to keep somebody happy, meet their EN's

The part about being selfish concerns what they chose to try. With a thousand different options they could have chosen, they chose something with out any concern for how it impacts anyone else in there lives. Also, this does not neccessarily mean they are completely selfish people, they just made a selfish choice

Greedy people want more, selfish people want what they want regardless of how it affects others.

So IMHO, if you and your H are happy, you are meeting his EN's, he yours, you would have no reason to experiment and try something else.

Is your H greedy? Is your H a selfish person? Or was this a selfish act?

I've posted this before: I think the driving factor in the choice to have an affair is either Big Failure or Big Success.

Big Failure: "My life sucks. I feel terrible. I deserve to have some fun. And who's it going to hurt?"

Big Success: "My life is great! Hey, *I'm* great! I deserve to have some fun! And who's it going to hurt?"

My WH fell for the Big Success and never got up. He was not at all unhappy either at home or on the job. His life was great. He was great. He deserved to have fun. And who would it hurt?
Mulan

Hi Sarah,

I'm not sure if you should be beating yourself up about why the A happened. I'm pretty inclined to think that Noodle's response is accurate. It's a selfish impulse. I think it's really up to the individual to protect themselves from getting into a situation where someone can start delivering love units. I think that a little education goes a long ways in this department. Prior to my wife's A protecting my own weaknesses never crossed my mind. Could I have gotten myself into a situation where someone could have deposited a huge number of love units. Absolutely. Now that I'm aware of that will I let that happen? I'm certainly going to do everything in my power to not allow that to happen. If my wife is meeting my most important EN's will that help? I think it will. I'm speaking as a guy and being honest. If I haven't had my SF need met in quit some time or have felt belittled because of my desires could I be more vulnerable? I think so. Does it make it right? ****NO**** That's why we all have to concentrate on protecting our weaknesses. I'm no different than my FWW. You really need to completely understand the whole MB concept. Everything from HNHN to POJA. POJA I found to be quit amazing. It really deals with sacrafice in marriage. I always thought sacrafice was a good thing. I found out that it's a *very* bad thing. If you have a need for affection in a certain way tell your husband. If he doesn't agree then go through the steps of POJA. If your husband has an unmet SF need discuss it with him. Don't belittle him, it's his need. If it's not met the mind starts to wonder about where it could be met. The whole idea is that if you sacrafice YOU are going to be unhappy. If your husband sacrafices HE is going to be unhappy. Neither makes sense. You should both be happy. POJA ensures that happens.

Why does a A happen? Don't try to answer that. I don't think you will get anywhere. The question I think you have to honestly answer is "Do you want to save your marriage?". If the answer is yes then the work really begins. I looked at it that I'm starting from ground zero, more like below ground. In fact you feel that this whole process is completely unfair. In many ways it is. But, do you want to save your marriage? You feel like you have completely lost control. That's what I felt until I realized that I was in control. It's called bounderies. I gave my wife forgiveness. I really did. But I believe I had some very narrow bounderies to live by. She broke NC a week after writing the letter. Breaking NC was actually worse than when I found out about the A. The only way I knew I could keep going forward in trying to save my marriage was to keep myself grounded. I would give her the benefit of the doubt unless she broke my trust again. I don't think I could have either physically or mentally gone through that again. I'm not sure how some people do it. I guess what I'm trying to say is this. If you make up your mind to save your marriage then start now. Try to leave the horrid past behind. It's really tough to do, I know, I can't do it all the time either. But, if you do then concentrate on your marriage from this day forth. I believe your H has learned a great deal and has "grown up" from his experience. Reality has hit him. His wife and kids can't be taken for granted. His whole life can be taken away from him for a few very selfish acts. Make it his choice and set your bounderies. If you want to save your marriage then move forward. Leave some of the past behind, I know its tough. Forgive but don't sell yourself short. Understand that if it doesn't work out that you have tried everything you could to save it. When your kids ask you about it you can tell them that you gave everything you could. But it has to be an honest effort, an effort that at times seems to be senseless after what he did to you.

Enough rambling. Sarah, I wish you luck. For you and your kids. Your husband F'ed up. Remember the old saying. "Fool me once. Shame on you. Fool me twice. Shame on me". You're in control. Take control of the recovery steering wheel.

Good luck. God be with you.

Headsouth

::::My WH fell for the Big Success and never got up. He was not at all unhappy either at home or on the job. His life was great. He was great. He deserved to have fun. And who would it hurt?

There was a story in The Australian newspaper recently about many of Australia's richest, most successful business men. They all have/had a mistress. The alpha male has to have the trappings to go with his success. Wouldn't matter what the little wifee was doing. He would be too up himself to notice.

AN

Cheated_on, most of what I’m going to say I’ve posted before, but I want to share it again with you in the context of this thread topic:

Firstly, I think the basic premise -- Unmet ENs = Logical reason to have an Affair -- is flawed. The issue of 'why' people have affairs is too complex for this simple approach. The reasons are many and varied. From my POV and perspective as a FWS on why WS’s stray and/or can become vulnerable to A's is the following:

1) Unmet EN’s and/or problems in a M
2) Pure selfishness and/or a character flaws and/or lack of morals.
3) For reasons/ circumstances other than problems/issues within the M e.g. personal problems/issues and baggage a person bring into the marriage and/or personal weaknesses & vulnerabilities and/or failure of WS to protect themselves against their own weaknesses/vulnerabilities.
4) Combination of the above.

The following thread on this topic is very good and will give more insight:

How the wayward get wayward, and why they sound so dumb...

I believe the main problem with WS’s is a failure to protect themselves against their own weaknesses/vulnerabilities. This was also the case with me. Usually WS's are not aware of these weaknesses/vulnerabilities before it’s too late. By the time they are already too deep in, they usually find it very hard to go into reverse (because it’s like an addiction) and they choose to progress with the destructive and wrong behavior. And by the time they become aware of those things they are so caught up in the ‘fog’ and rationalizations that they usually don’t ‘think straight’ anymore. It’s a huge and vicious cycle - and of course not an excuse for the wrongful and hurtful behavior towards the BS.

Certainly unmet EN’s in a M can play a huge role. No marriage is perfect and of course all the most important EN’s of spouses are not 100% met all the time (if it was, then we would live in a perfect world), but I strongly believe it goes much deeper and the problem mainly lays within the WS. The fact that many people in unhappy and unfulfilled M’s don’t stray and betray their spouses is a clear proof of this.

In my case, my betrayal was not about me feeling unhappy in my M or unfulfilled EN’s in my M. It was al about me and unresolved issues within myself at the time. Unfortunately and sadly it took the pain & devastation of an inappropriate involvement with another man to make me realize these things, seek help and address these issues within myself. Chances are that this is/was also the case with your H.

I know that the fact that I've become involved in an inappropriate friendship and developed romantic feelings for FOM had nothing to do with my dear H. I've developed those feelings even while I’ve loved my H dearly and never wanted to do anything to hurt him. Yes, sometimes people have A's because certain EN's are missing in a M, but I believe betrayal goes much deeper than just unfulfilled EN's... The biggest problem lies within the WS's and betrayal can happen even though they love their spouses dearly - even while EN's are being met by the spouse.

I had the chance to stop my involvement with FOM before it could progress into a full EA. But after my experience I can understand how easily people can slip into A's if not very cautious and careful. Although my involvement hasn’t yet progressed to a serious level, the feelings I've developed (even sexual feelings) were extremely intense. So intense that it scared me. And because of this I can also have some empathy and understanding for the weaknesses of people who get caught up in PA's. From my own experience I know how hard it is and how much willpower it takes NOT to act on those feelings. However, I’m fully aware there is always a choice and NO excuse for acting on feelings. I even resisted giving FOM a “friendly hug” because I was afraid it would progress to more and I didn't trust myself. But I was lucky in the sense that certain internal factors (things within myself like anxiousness, fear etc.) helped prevented me from acting on those feelings. I think part of Satan's strategy is to use these inappropriate feelings people often develop for a member of the opposite sex to cause them to stray. And I think during infidelity these type of feelings are intensified to the 100th power.

People have different personalities; different experiences in life; different weaknesses; vulnerabilities; strengths; flaws; morals; emotional baggage etc. and these things help determine how people will probably handle and react on different situations & circumstances in life. Some people also have “voids” in themselves because of different reasons and some try to “fill” these voids in destructive and wrong ways. Some try to fill in with alcohol or drugs. Some try to fill it in less destructive ways like emotional eating, compulsive spending, working etc. There are a MILLION ways people can unconsciously try to fill these “voids” and negative feelings within themselves. And then there are those who try to fill these voids with destructive and inappropriate attention from other people. Often when opportunities arise & a people are tempted, they are not strong enough (or don’t want to) resist. People are not tempted by the same things. Some experience alcohol & drugs as a temptation. Some experience porn as a temptation and then some will experience inappropriate attention from the opposite sex as a temptation. I believe a person always have a choice on whether or not they are going to react on their feelings and the temptation, although I’m aware that the struggle and suffering of the discipline involved in not doing so e.g. willpower, self-control and self-discipline etc. may be enormous.

Maybe your H is inherently not a selfish person but failed to protect himself against his own weaknesses/vulnerabilities; failed to resist the temptation and as a result acted selfish for a while. Or maybe the reasons are far more complex than this. People make different choices; mistakes etc. in life for different reasons and because of different circumstances. And only you & your H can determine exactly why he had made these wrong choices - maybe IC and MC can help to determine this. The most important is that people can determine and correct those things and/or take steps to protect themselves and not make the same mistakes and choices again. This is your H’s responsibility, but I believe in fulfilling your H’s EN’s (whether or not unfulfilled EN’s played a role in your H’s betrayal or not) you can indirectly help to protect your H against his own negative traits and in the process make your M more happy; fulfilled and immune against outside temptations and factors. Of course the same applies to your H – he must take care of you as well and also fulfill your EN’s.

Cheated_on, I also want you to read the following post once posted by another MB-member. This post basically says the same I already posted above, but just in a short and concise manner:

[color:"blue"] Most people in an affair never "considered" having one or not. It was not like they woke up one day and wondered, "should I fall in love with Mrs. X?"

They were usually in far to deep before they realized it because they failed to protect themselves against their own weaknesses.

There are many variables in why an affair happens, some of which you may have some control over and others you have nothing to do with.

What is meant (actually, Steve Harley said it) by the previous statement is that in order for an affair to happen, the person getting into it has to not care or not understand what their own weaknesses are and put themselves into a situation which will further erode those weaknesses.

"Falling in love with someone other than your spouse is not caused by unmet needs in your marriage. It is caused by a failure to protect your own weaknesses."” Steven W. Harley, M.S.”[/color]

Wow, I am just amazed and humbled by the great wisdom I sometimes read on these boards and the time and care people take in their posts.

Headsouth and Suzet, I thought your posts are particularly wonderful and I hope, CO, that they help to continue to give you a little more clarity.

((((Sarah))))

Blessings,
Glad
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks GTPO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cheated_on, I want to add the following to my previous post:

Although there is nothing that can affair-proof a M with 100% guarantee, I do believe that fulfilling a spouse's EN's and keeping each other emotionally fulfilled and happy, can help prevent an A from happening when the opportunity and temptation arrives... I was generally happily married and had an H who took relatively good care of my needs during my "friendship" with OM. And I believe this was the one biggest factor which helped me resist the temptation and prevented me from acting on my feelings for FOM.

I agree that we cannot blame a failure to meet EN's as the "cause" of As, although I think it is a contributing factor for some people that fuels their A.

Meeting ENs may help prevent As, but there are PLENTY of BS and just S out there whose needs were/are not being met and who do NOT have As.

So what makes the WS so special? I'm not sure what the technical term is, and I think some posters above describe it better than I can, but in short it's a problem with the WS. Call it selfishness, or a sense of entitlement, or lack of empathy, or narcissism, or failure to protect weakenesses, or lack of morals & character --whatever. Something is missing/broken in the WS and when ENs aren't met, that something kicks in and wreaks havoc and shocking pain on the M and the BS.

Bottom line, there is no excuse for an A. Contributing factors and causes may help us understand & prevent them, but they do not excuse them.

I do agree with Suzet's assessment that it's *failure to protect one's weaknesses* that is the prime cause of affairs.

I think that can explain why some people can go for years emotionally starving to death because their ENs are not being met and *not* cheat, while somebody else in a good relationship will feel free to help themselves to some extras and goodies at the first opportunity.

I have tried to understand what made my WH change from a loving, caring, loyal and protective husband and father into a man who can ignore and emotionally neglect his family for hours and days on end and get roaring mad if anybody tells him this is hurtful. His solution for this is to shout that I should "Stop Being Hurt! Just Stop!"

???

My theory, if anyone is interested, is that WH grew up poor. I mean dirt-poor, white-trash poor. He readily admits this and talks about it a lot, usually disguised as funny stories about his crazy hillbilly family. But I saw the house he grew up in and spent a lot of time with his five brothers, one sister, alcoholic dad and prescription-med-addicted and non-working mother over the years (almost always at my house, not theirs.)

The trouble is, there is nothing about growing up poor and hungry and with nothing that prepares you to handle success if and when it happens. We read about this all the time with rock stars and athletes.

When success did happen for WH, he still had his poor-boy mentality of "if something is free, grab all you can, because too many other people want it too and it might not be there five minutes from now."

So, when he started climbing the corporate ladder and started getting all the perks that go with that kind of success - money, attention, admiration, free lunches, free dinners, and most of all loads of sucking up from the single women there - he had *no* idea in the world as to how to handle this.

He had no idea that this sort of stuff has to be put in its place so it doesn't take over your life. It never occurred to him that just because somebody offers something for free, you DON'T have to take it -- and hey, maybe you shouldn't.

In other words, he was like a kid in a candy store where all the candy is suddenly free. And he still is. His social life with his coworkers, especially the females, is the A-Number-One priority in his life. He will lie for it, he will tolerate suffering and chaos in his home for it, and he WILL get a divorce if that's what it takes to protect that social life.

To this day, he absolutely refuses to give up the Free Candy. He sold his soul for it, in my opinion, and gets roaring mad at anybody who tries to interfere with it - like me.

That's why he refuses to use POJA, because he would have to POJA these work-related social events -- the company-sponsored lunches, dinners, awards banquets, etc etc etc where spouses are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN to attend -- and he might have to miss one in order to spend that time with his wife instead. Or he would have to go through the ultimate humilation of bringing his wife anyway and being seen with her instead of with whatever bimbo he can spend that time with instead.

So - does that sound like unmet ENs to anyone here?

To me, it sounds like a very successful corporate manager who got caught gorging on Free Candy and now simply cannot bring himself to admit that what he did was wrong. So he doesn't. It sounds to me like poor-boy mentality running smack into the responsible, trustworthy man. He is completely unable to resolve this conflict, so he orders me to "stop hurting" and constantly threatens divorce if I don't.

He has actually said that the things I am so upset about - going off-site with women from work for lunches, behaving in public like these women's escorts and dinner companions at the company-sponsored events, and getting emotionally involved with them through very personal emails and cards and gifts (and lying about all of this, of course) - he has readily admitted that he would never have done these things if the same women worked anywhere else. "That would be wrong." But he insists that if he works at the same company with the same women, that makes it perfectly all right.

This goes along with the fact that some people cannot resolve the conflict between who they believe themselves to be and the behavior that they've been caught doing.

WH honestly believes himself to be a noble and honorable man - and for the first ten years of our marriage, he was. That's why I loved him and that's why I married him - and that's why it's been so hard to walk away from him, because I remember very well who he was.

But when WH is faced with year after year of poor-boy-grabbing-free-candy behavior, he is completely unable to resolve the conflict between the two selves. So he blames me instead, goes right on placing his social life with his coworkers at the top of his priority list, and constantly threatens divorce if I don't rustle up enough self-esteem to learn to be happy with this arrangement.

In other words - if you get caught being an *ss, you can either face up to it, admit you screwed up, and correct the behavior - OR, you can:

1) decide that NOBODY is going to accuse you of being an *ss (constantly threaten to abandon or divorce your spouse if they object to your behavior)

2) admit to NOTHING (ignore and stonewall your spouse if they try to discuss the problems)

3) change your value system to accomodate what you did (come up with lines like "it would be wrong if she worked at a different company, but not if we work at the same place")

4) and (most important) refuse to correct the behavior - because if you correct it, that would be admitting it was wrong, now wouldn't it? (utterly refuse all attempts your spouse makes at working together to have a real marriage, like using POJA and learning to meet each other's emotional needs.)

And so it goes.

I'm not looking for sympathy. Really, I'm not. I only posted this becase (a) I'm trying to understand it myself, and (b) maybe it will help somebody else.

Oh, and because Mulan is starved for conversation today. Can anybody else relate to this sort of thing?
Mulan

cheated

Great question. I posted yesterday asking is there any hope.

I got the same answer. I need to keep depositing into the LB and seeing the little things.

I asked the question WHAT IF YOU CAN NEVER meet your FWW's most important need. In her mind her most important need is to move back east. Not to be with OM but that is where she grew up.

I realized because I wouldn't meet this need, on her terms, she became selfish, very selfish.

Sometimes I wonder what came first the unfilled needs or the selfishness. Maybe her needs were not being met because she was selfish or maybe I didn't meet her needs and she became selfish.

I realized it was because I couldn't meet her needs. As a matter of fact she is so unselfish towards others it makes me wonder when she will act that way to me.

Now since the A I have tried to listen to her and meet her needs. She had a need to spend more time together everyday. The only problem was we couldn't because of our kids. My youngest son would not go to sleep unless we laid down with him and then woke up 3 or 4 times a night and came in and got us out of bed. On her night to lay down with him she fell asleep in his bed and on my nights she fell asleep on the couch. BTW she started the laying down with him even when I objected. I broke the habit of my son needing us to sleep when she was at work. Now we can spend that time together. I heard crying, screaming and begging but I had to break him of this habit while she was at work because she would not let him do this. On the nights she was home I made her go lock herself in the room an pretend she was sleeping so my son could not go to her. It worked he finally started sleeping on his own. All of this to meet her needs.

The other son never had his homework done until 7:30-8:00 everynight. I had a parent teacher conference and we discussed him getting a 15-30 minute break when he got home then homework. This helped as well.

Now this was hard work on my part but I wanted this time as well so it was worth it.

Our marriage has certainly gotten better since the A for her. Not so sure on my end.

I think my FWW has a sense of entitlement. Since I will not meet her single most important need, on her terms, she is giving enough already. All of the deposits I make go to offset that one love buster.

***I asked the question WHAT IF YOU CAN NEVER meet your FWW's most important need. In her mind her most important need is to move back east. Not to be with OM but that is where she grew up.***

Have you tried to POJA this?
Mulan

Mulan

I have. Again the problem is that there will never be joint agreement.

During the orginal discussions about the move I told my FWW that we needed 10K to move back. She has spent over 20K on herself since that. That was the only condition I placed. I tried to get two job transfers without her knowledge back east. Told her about them later because if she knew she would start packing and expect me to figure out how to make it work. She had the A wile she was visting back east to see her family. Now this move is not going to happen. I have arthritis, bad knees and a bad back all which hurt more in cold weather. I am not willing to sacrafice my physical well being so she can move back east. I was back then but not now.

In addition to that my kids don't want to move back there either.

This is one person running roughshod over our marriage.

Plus she wants to move back partially for her family. Her family has never treated her well. We went on a vacation there one time and they barely spent any time with us. After three days she wanted to go home because of the way they treated us. I had to pay to get heating oil delivered because we had a 6 month old in a freezing house.

Now we had a discussion last week regarding our relationship. I have told her that if she would have saved the money necessary we could have moved back east. She said I never believed you and you can say that now but I think you are lying. I told her about trying to get a transfer she said that doesn't prove anything. I was willing to try but she didn't seem like she wanted to take part in the sacrafices necessary to move back.

So during the last conversation she said that she still thinks it was selfish of me and I don't care about her needs.

Would you move back east if that is where your spouses A took place.

We have a Policy of joint disagreement on this issue and I have realized no matter what we do or say it is never going to change. Either I move back and give her everything she wants or our marriage will be stuck right where it is right now.

These are some great posts!! I learned so much from all of them. Everyone has brought great insight.

Mulan,

First of all, so sorry to hear about your situation. I am feeling your pain! I truly wish the best for you and your M!

I think your concept of the big failure or big success makes total sense. I don't think my H actually thought how great he had it (Big success), but I think he felt that "he" deserved to have some fun and who's it going to hurt. He actually did have it very good and just kept taking and taking and never giving (except to OW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />).

Suzet,

You brought up good points about protecting weaknesses. I think that is what it comes down to. First the WS or FWS must know what their weaknesses are and then they must protect them. They have to put protecting their weaknesses before anything else, even their own wants. That is why I think it will be so hard for selfish people b/c they will have to "teach" themselves to stop thinking about what they want all the time.

I also agree about EN's helping protect against affairs. I feel that they can help, but just as people have posted, that is not going to make an affair proof marriage. The WS or FWS has to know at all times what the boundaries are and what their weaknesses are. I also think every WS and FWS is different and different things work for different people and you have to find what that one thing is that you have to do to protect your weaknesses.

I personally think that will be a huge task for a selfish person!

BTW, I am not bashing my H, please don't think I am. I am just trying to see if maybe there is something I can do for him to help him protect his weaknesses too. He knows he is selfish and is working on it. This thread may also help him realize what he needs to do for himself.

--Sarah