Threats are nothing but manipulation tactics.

Anything that would make a good threat..will make a GREAT consequence.

Don't make empty gestures..pull the trigger or drop the gun.

I told her parents recently but she had already told them herself. I made sure they knew the extent of it, that it was an affair and not just "feelings" for him. I've asked them to intercede but they are being very passive about the whole thing. They tell me they don't approve but I don't think they agree with me that she should leave her job. Actually, her Mom says it is a no-brainer, but her Dad thinks she needs to look out for herself.

Mr. C, can you remind us of the work relationship between your W and the OM? If she was the subordinate, she should be protected from being fired. If the company fires her, and not the OM, that might be grounds for the two of you to fight the dismissal. Just remember, though, the best thing that will happen to give your M hope is getting your W away from the situation.

Little background here: Almost 20 years ago, when I was a young and stupid just-out-of-college lass (with my Master's, just like your W) my boss propositioned me. I was pretty blinded by his stature in the company (Senior Vice President) so I briefly was the OW in his M. I realized very early on that this was contrary to my entire moral fiber, and broke it off. Things got ugly, since he was my superior, and was pretty pissed off at me. (He had already moved out, and was planning a *life* with me.)

I went to HR, as the OW, and said YOU NEED TO GET THIS GUY AWAY FROM ME. Well, he was the VP, and I was the entry level engineer, so it would have been a whole lot easier to fire me. However, since I was the one who "got the jump" in approaching HR, I was at a strategic advantage. The company transfered him to another city, and he was seething mad.

But guess what? It was the best thing that ever happened to him--I heard through the grapevine that he reconciled with his W and they are still together. (PS>>I've gone out of my way to ensure NC ever since, b/c I know it would just open up old wounds for him.)

Since you can't expect the OM to be the one to initiate the separation, you need to move things along on your own. You need to do this quickly, though, because word will get out at the company eventually anyway. Good luck.

They are peers, both with the same job grade in the same group, reporting to the same manager. Word has got out to some of the other people in her group, but they have done nothing about it except to tell my W that they just want her to be happy, no matter what she decides to do.

I found out about the affair 9 months ago and initially talked W into leaving, but that turned into a leave of absence, which turned into maternity leave for MY baby. She was 3 months pregnant when A started. She has been back at work for 3 months as "friends" with him and we are making no progress, so this would be a belated exposure to work.

No sense in delaying any longer then, right?

From Penalty Kill


Mr C, if they both report to the same manager, it would seem to me that exposing to this manager might do the most good. And what about OM's W? Can you enlist her aid in this endeavor? I can't imagine a manager really wanting two affairees working for him/her. But perhaps I'm out of touch...As I said to you very early on when you first posted, even if the contact between OM and your W is no longer sexual, any contact at all is damaging to your M. Your W is still seeing OM every day, she isn't withdrawing from him, and so she has no reason to bond to you. Thus, her indifference to the M.

You mentioned in an earlier post that your W was good at her job, had been there a long time. The fact that she won't leave now, before things get messy, and get a good reference for another job, suggests to me that she is still tied to OM in some way, possibly emotionally.

You can have all the counseling in the world, but I don't see things improving until she leaves.

Oh, and no, a threat will not be enough. I wouldn't even bother with a threat; it's just going to be a waste of your time.

I talked with SH today, and he agrees with me that I should keep the work exposure in my back pocket for now while he works with W to get her to come around and want to leave on her own. Once she sees how it is impacting our ability to move forward she will want to leave on her own. His feelings mirrored mine, that work exposure would impact her ability to find a new job if she were fired, etc. That it would be seen as vindictive and destructive. As she is willing to do the MB counseling, I'm going to hold off.

I thought I would post this, as people here seem to think that all of the MB basic principles apply in every situation across the board, at every time, without knowing all of the details. That seems a bit dangerous to me, although I know people certainly mean well. I think that each situation is unique in it's own way and that sometimes custom solutions and patience are required.

From Penalty Kill


Well said. Deserves to be bumped to the top. Good luck w/your situation.

Good deal, MrC. This is exactly why we wanted you to talk to SH in the first place. No one here is under the impression that all principles apply to all cases in a mindless cookie cutter fashion as you suggest. Workplace exposure is very effective and is not "dangerous." It is a HARLEY recommended tactic that is tried and true.

That being said, SH has access to more information about your case than we do and is a professional who has the ability to guide your W out of that position. Your average poster does not have that advantage.

The others here were simply doing the best they could with what we had to work with. If you don't like the advice, then ask for a refund. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mr C,

If your wife is working with Steve, that's great, follow what he says. Be weary of your WW using talking to SH to hold you off and say that she did try counseling and coaching.

Steve gave me the same advice and by the time it was completely evident that my ww was not going to do anything to help our marriage or find other employment, it was too late for our marriage and exposure.

I guess what I'm saying is, that I truly regret not exposing right away. It's a tightrope you are walking, I'm praying for you and your wife.

Mel, I'm going to disagree just an eensy bit....you KNOW I'm a proponent of exposure....but I have seen alot of it backfire too....especially when it's scope is too broad. Over the years....I have come to firmly believe that it is best done where it can do the most good....and that is with people who care. Sometimes the people in the workplace do care....sometimes they don't.

Sometimes workplace exposure is not effective, and sometimes, it is dangerous or such a high risk that it needs to be weighed and measured. That's why, if no contact can be achieved without that particular exposure (though sometimes that's impossible) it's preferable. Sometimes it does more harm than good. It is very WILLARD Harley, but not very STEVE Harley. It is also a very controversial tactic and most other MCs don't agree with it. Again....I think under the right circumstances....it can be absolutely brilliant...but there's no doubt it's a higher risk than other exposure.

An earlier comment in this thread said you must do a Plan A before a Plan B. This is also not precisely true either. There are lots of instances where you should not do a Plan A at all....abuse, addiction for instance. If you're losing your love for your spouse too rapidly, you have a very unrepentant spouse who flaunts their affair, or won't end contact, all your time together consists of conflict, or you just can't control your angry LBs....going to Plan B is a good alternative to a very poor Plan A.

The point of all of this....is that as I said earlier...."one size does not fit all". Exposure is a very difficult and important thing for BS to do....so I don't want to undermine the importance of it or discourage anyone from using this powerful tool....but most "absolutes" fail to fully work on individuals and individual marriages. Exposure can be a very sensitive issue...that I truly believe should be guided by a professional who can take all of the circumstances under advisement. So as ML said mr c....it's really good that you consulted a MC that you trust. He has an opportunity to do something none of us will probably ever have....talk to your wife.

Mr.C. if your wife is talking to Harley, does that mean she is reading on this forum? If so, you want to be careful about your posts--many of the MB strategies for ending the A work best when the WS doesn't know the playbook. IMHO

Starfish, i don't disagree with a thing you said, except the statement that workplace exposure is "dangerous." In this case, he was faced with workplace exposure as a last resort to get his w to end contact. Her continued, daily contact is what is "dangerous" to his marriage. Given his resources at the time, that was the best strategy for him. I am sure that SH is hoping that he can avoid that by persuading his W to leave on her volition. That is always the best way. However, SH did not say "don't expose," he said "put that in your back pocket for now."

This is an exposure that is often very effective and one that Willard Harley often recommends.


But that is an EXCEPTION. An exception does not disprove the rule. There are very sound reasons why Plan A is done BEFORE Plan B that should be heeded. My comment that Plan A must be done before Plan B is a very true statement in most cases. It is a generalization, which takes into account that there always be exceptions. It doesn't make the rule untrue, though.


Of course one size does not fit all. I have never said or implied otherwise.

Miss mellie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />,

We're really not at all far apart in what we think....and I've always loved your passion but sometimes find you just the teensiest bit inflexible. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Starfish, i don't disagree with a thing you said, except the statement that workplace exposure is "dangerous."

Okay....I said "sometimes" and I do believe that. It is the one kind of exposure that is most likely to backfire...and folks need to know that....honestly....and I personally think it's only fair to tell them so and let them decide. Often, it's so hard to get them to expose at all....that the fear is if we back off at all...they'll do NOTHING!! I get that....I really do, but at the same time....I also have to respect the fact that people know their spouses better than I do....so I give it my best shot with the information I have. Most of the time, that follows the guidelines....and on some occasions....I need to take unexpected elements into account.

In this case, he was faced with workplace exposure as a last resort to get his w to end contact.

Yep....and in this instance....I actually disagree with SH (and agree with you)...BUT part of that is because I have no opportunity to speak to his wife....if I did....I'd wait in a second.

Her continued, daily contact is what is "dangerous" to his marriage.

No doubt...however, the crappy truth is that the majority of corporate America doesn't give a rat's patootie about affairs....in fact, often they sanction and arrange them. Exposure in a place like that....has a huge potential to backfire. In my H's old company (where "team building" meant taking the secretaries to a resort for beach volleyball) I can tell you exactly what the response would be....because I saw it too many times....it would be pointless and ineffective and career ending. It would be "dangerous" to the degree that neither my husband nor my marriage would recover from his humiliation. Since it would mean divorce anyway....I would have taken a the more peaceful route....thank you very much. At the company he works for NOW....total difference....one of the reasons he works there now because I would not remain married to him he didn't find a company more marriage friendly....with ethics about their employees!!

Given his resources at the time, that was the best strategy for him.

At the time....without professional help....and the possibility that an MC could talk to his wife....I tend to agree...that was the logical next step.

I am sure that SH is hoping that he can avoid that by persuading his W to leave on her volition.

Okay...good...but WHY? Why do YOU think SH would like to avoid it? Must be a reason, right? I suggest to you....it is because of the reasons I've stated. In fact....I know it's because of the reasons I've stated because I've had this conversation with Steve Harley. I'm actually a "Willard" girl LOL....I find SH much softer. I like the militance of the old man!! LOL "put in on the evening news!" wow....so cool....but sometimes....a bit over the top.....still cool though!!

That is always the best way.

I agree....and I'm saying the same thing. Best not to need it....be careful....but not scared.

However, SH did not say "don't expose," he said "put that in your back pocket for now."

A wise choice....use it when you must!! but not sooner....and not when you have possible other options....like having SH talk to your spouse...yanno?

This is an exposure that is often very effective and one that Willard Harley often recommends.

No argument....but "often" does not equal "always"....remember that too.

But that is an EXCEPTION. An exception does not disprove the rule. There are very sound reasons why Plan A is done BEFORE Plan B that should be heeded. My comment that Plan A must be done before Plan B is a very true statement in most cases. It is a generalization, which takes into account that there always be exceptions. It doesn't make the rule untrue, though.

Mel, I'm not sure where you got the idea that it's a "rule" that you do MUST do a Plan A before Plan B. Steve is the "Plan A" guy....but if you really like "Willard"....then ask him about this mythical rule because he's much more hard core about how much a BS should "take". That "rule" is a guideline not the inflexible standard that it's become on this board. "Plan A...THEN....Plan B" is the "preferred" way to proceed....but there are so MANY exceptions that each situation has to be looked at individually. What about the loads of folks who NEVER could do a real plan A????.....I don't want to mention names because we all do the best we can....but there are SCORES of them. Or the ones who get trapped in Plan A? I'll just say one....because I know she loves me....couldn't do a plan A or B LOL....momto3boys!! Many people are so hurt and hostile after a d-day they can't do a Plan A to save themselves. All they do is push the WS away. Some WS are so foggy that they are ruthless in their selfishness and a Plan A is just an invitation to doormatitis. Some WS are just too abusive or have such huge entitlement issues....a Plan A is a BAD idea. Rumor has it....even the SH is moderating his opinion of Plan A.

These strategies are simply NOT written in stone chere. I respect your passion....but I'd really like to see you apply these guidelines with more flexibility (NOT about your morals or ethics....just your advice!)....rather than just enforce what has become "the MB forum hardline". The Harleys do NOT operate like this....they really don't.

Great posts. The advice and comments here have helped me so much and I thank you all for that.

As for my wife finding these threads, it's pretty unlikely. I doubt she would know a message board if she walked into one; it's just not her thing. In the very unlikely event that she did, my username has nothing to do with my actual name (mr_c, mr cellophane, cuz you can look right through me, and never know i'm there).

She also knows I have SAA but hasn't bothered to pick it up once to look at it.

She does need to understand the basic concepts so she is visiting the website to read up on them, but even still, I'm not worried.

Last night she told me that she and SH figured out why she had the affair and she seemed relieved by that. I just hope she buys into all of the concepts and really puts some effort into getting us back on track. She also told me that she is glad now that I exposed to OMW. That it's a huge relief to her that OMW knows and that OMW deserved to know. I think W is actually taking some pleasure in the fact that OM and OMW are now struggling with the same issues we have been dealing with.

I'll certainly keep you posted on our progess.

"Last night she told me that she and SH figured out why she had the affair and she seemed relieved by that. I just hope she buys into all of the concepts and really puts some effort into getting us back on track. She also told me that she is glad now that I exposed to OMW. That it's a huge relief to her that OMW knows and that OMW deserved to know. I think W is actually taking some pleasure in the fact that OM and OMW are now struggling with the same issues we have been dealing with."

WOW, sounds pretty promising to me. Keep up the good work, and don't give up.

[
Starfish, have you read my posts? Because if you believe this you simply do not understand my stance. I have never been inflexible about Plan B [or other principles] and can't imagine why you would jump to such a conclusion.

OF COURSE there are exceptions where one should skip Plan A and go to Plan B. But those ARE EXCEPTIONS, not the rule, not the norm. Pointing out that Plan A needs to be done before Plan B is a GENERALIZATION, one that Dr. Harley himself uses often.

That does NOT MEAN that one does not understand that there are exceptions. Nor does that mean the rule is defined by the EXCEPTION or that one is "inflexible." I understand fully that there are situations where Plan A should be skipped and have often even quoted Dr. Harley in saying so. So I can't imagine where you get the idea that I am "inflexible." Rest assured I am not.


I agree 200% with this sentiment but don't believe for a minute that SH is changing his stance on it. I know of members who are counseling with him right now who are in very abusive marriages with ruthless, cruel WS'. I DO hope very much you are right, though. I think that many here actually ABUSE Plan A by staying in Plan A too long or they shouldn't do it at all.

This is why I often quote Dr. Harley right here:


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

So, please rest your mind about my stance on Plan A because you have misunderstood me completely. While I think it can be helpful, it can also become downright destructive in certain situations and I have never said otherwise. Just because I said that Plan A comes before Plan B [and it DOES ideally] does not mean that I am not mindful of those situations.

Well see chere....I TOLD you were we're far apart in our thinking! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I understand your point....and you appear to understand mine....nuff said.

Oh....and btw....I've decided on an Indian name for you: "talks with big hair" LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

**snort** Hey, I like that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

p.s. what makes you think SH is changing his stance on Plan A? I so hope you are right, but have not seen much sign of it from my limited exposure.