I'm glad to hear he came back, and that he's been doing some DS stuff. Getting rid of clutter is one of those things I find very difficult and distatsteful, but it sure does improve the quality of life! Maybe a less cluttered environment will help promote a more serene atmosphere, with less chaos outside and inside.

I love that imagery, "drive-by O&H"!

Positive reinforcement is very important. Since I'm not very good with interpersonal skills (at least with humans!) I often relate things to raising dogs: do whatever it takes so you can catch them at doing something good, and then praise them! Works so much better than punishing the bad behavior.

I don't mean to suggest taking a parent-child role with your H; just thinking of the doggie stuff helps me remember to look for things to praise.


Exactly! IMHO those are the priorities, in the right order.


Wow, I feel like this too. We have an agreement (when we remember) that I wrote about on my thread - since H has such a low tolerance for talking about uncomfortable things, if he needs to take a break, he can tell me respectfully (!!!) that he needs to suspend the convo, as long as he tells me he will come back to talk about it within a certain amount of time. Like, "I really can't talk about this any more right now, I need you to drop it for now. I promise we can talk about it some more sometime in the next 48 hours." And then, he'll wait until 47 hours and 59 minutes have passed...

If (a) I know I only have to wait a certain amount of time and I will get to have my say, and (b) I don't feel like he's giving the kids the impression that he has the right to tell me to shut up or that I don't have a right to voice my opinion, then I am ok with dropping the subject for the time being.


This could be hitting him someplace in his core. Like, he doesn't want to be told that he had a bad childhood or was neglected or put in a bad environment or something. If it was good enough for him, then it should be good enough for his kids; after all, he turned out ok, didn't he? (I'm saying what might be going on in his mind, maybe subconsciously; I'm not saying that's what I'm thinking.) So, this could be perceived as an attack or a DJ on his upbringing, his FOO, maybe even how he turned out.

Is there a way you could let him know how much you respect him for something?


It sounds like his agreement wasn't really an agreement, maybe he was just going along with what you said for some reason or another, but in his heart of hearts he wasn't really in agreement. If the two of you just plain disagree on this, what can you do? (I mean that as a real question, not as if you should throw up your hands and give up.)


I agree with that thought. If he is not going to agree to let DDs go to N7's house to play, what can you do that would address your concern?

I don't know - would there be a way you could end up going over there at some time when the kids are over there? Maybe you could be the talkative neighbor who stops by to chat and just doesn't leave? I really have no idea if the dynamics would make this feasible. Or would it help satisfy the girls' desire to play together if you had a sleepover at your house, and N7 could bring a lot of her toys? Maybe you could have N7's mom over for coffee when N7 was there, and you could all walk n7 back home and you talk your way into their place while the kids play for an hour?

Have you explained to DDs exactly why you don't want them going over there? You could reinforce that you want them to know they can come to you and tell you absolutely anything, and if they ever see anything over there that concerns them, to not be afraid to tell you. That some people have different standards, but you want them to grow up to a better life than that.

Just throwing ideas out there. I'm not there to know the dynamics; disregard any or all, if it doesn't fit.

It has been getting more natural, more of a habit, to see the good things, too. I'm not still fighting back negative thoughts at this point. I'm more in withdrawal, loving detachment. Meeting ENs that I am enthusiastic about, like making a pitcher of iced tea and bringing him a glass unasked. And there's a lot that I'm not enthusiastic about right now.

It has helped me a lot getting familiar with MB over time and realizing that we are creatures also affected by chemicals. It wouldn't be realistic to expect myself to have in-love feelings for H right now. Acting according to my code, that's all I need to ask of myself.



Even being detached it is an amazing thing to me that H was willing and felt empowered to find the source of his discomfort and take action to eliminate it. Rather than take a victim stance and blame others.


I hear you, positive reinforcement is important, meeting and EN for Admiration is important. Focusing on the positives, making mental gratitude lists, is important. O&H, seeing the positive is there, too, is important.

No, not parenting, not giving to get, not creating expectations, not setting our parters up to fail. Instead we're partnering, sharing our O&H, letting go of the response.



This is a great technique, one that works in other relationships that I have in my life. I have tried this with H, this thoughtful request, can we address this later this week? In that moment, H has not agreed to table the discussion for now to discuss at a later date. He is very emphatic that he NEVER wants to discuss it again. Part of a thoughtful request is to be ready to accept a no answer and keep brainstorming a solution. So far it seems that if I wait until we're deep back into the State Of Intimacy, that's when H is willing to hear my O&H. Any other time he calls it constant complaining or contant nagging, that I'm NEVER happy. Even if it was once in two weeks, and it was in a respectful manner.



H wants to get DD11 a dog as just compensation for having moved back at the end of the summer. The last time we had a dog, I gave it away, because it was more than I knew what to do with. I had taken him to dog training, read books, and spent a lot of time excercising him, but he tore up the house and kept running away, driving me nuts with a newborn to care for and an H away on business and a C-section that wasn't healing.

One of his brothers has been in AA for many years, and he was visiting yesterday. He told us that he didn't think we should get a dog, and told him how much it traumatized him when their dad took their beloved pets back to the pound. That led to a discussion of their FOO dysfunction. I said that it frustrates me that I want to keep my girls away from that, and that H lets the girls go over to the neighbor anyway.

I was really suprised with what BiL had to say. He said that alcoholism isn't only about alcohol, and that he has seen a lot of dysfunction in our home, and suggested that I get the girls involved with Alateen to learn tools to cope with that and learn how to thrive, anyway.


I lost that respect temporarily in my anger, but I am past that immediate anger. I do have a lot of respect for H as an individual and show him that.


When H and I are back working together, I think we can POJA something that we're both enthusiastic about. H has been enthusiastic about this in the past, but maybe next time it will look a little different. Once we are in agreement, I want to talk with the kids in a united manner and let them know that we are a team.



Thanks for all the suggestions, I thik there are ways that we can get the families together in a healthy way. Last year, we used to go to a public water park nearby together with another family. I think LA's suggestions, too, coming to a place of O&H with my neighbor and her DD7 directly, will give us a lot of opportunity to find a middle ground.



No, I haven't told the girls in years that I have a problem with my neighbor's drinking. Years ago, when DD11 was 7, I told her that's why she couldn't sleep over there, and she told my neighbor's mom, and she took huge offense that I would say that to DD. Folks here are kind of gossipy and it was embarassing to her that DD might repeat that, as she's a talkative kid and talks very openly.

I told DD11 that I have a problem with folks who are over her house, that other moms have told me things that they have asked me not to repeat, which is also true. But you're right, my girls are old enough that I think I can be O&H with them about my concerns.

Hi EO!! I was catching up on your thread (I've been lurking rather than posting lately, but then we were out of town last week and I haven't even been lurking!) and I saw that you mentioned me, so I wanted to be sure to stop in and say hello.

I've missed you guys! Things have been nuts for me this summer. I'll have to drag up my old thread and post an update before too long.

How are things going the last few days? Are your DDs settling into the school routine this week? Hope things are going well for you all!

Hugs!!
Happy

Wow, EO...

Just like a real Genie...

You say her name and...

POOF!

she appears.

::::hugging the stuffin' out of HTBH::::

I gotta remember that trick.

LA

Happy, so good to see you! Thank you for your presence <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I remember that you were going to start back at school, an can only imagine how hectic things will be in this season of life.

Once I stopped hyperfocusing on H, I really appreciated being home again! There is no place like home! I am so happy to reconnect with everyone! I've seen my mom and brothers and sister a few times, and spent a day with my grandpa Tuesday. My firend's daughter came over for a few days last week, D6's best friend. And my Dad and BiL came over Sunday. I was even glad to see H's buddy and his family Sunday; we went over to their house and had a nice visit. And we got to go back to our church <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've been going on fitness walks with our neighbors every morning when the girls go to school. I've been to Curves with or without D11 almost every day. And our babysitter is coming over tomorrow evening so H and I can get some alone time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Right now my neighbor's three little kids are over. I don't know if I've ever felt this overflowing with connection!

The girls are actually happy to be back in school; reconnecting with their old friends and telling us about new ones, too.

I went to the local unemployment office and learned that I'm NOT unemployed, I'm a professional IN TRANSITION. I took a class there in Self Directed Job Searching, and met some awesome folks. I've met three recruiting firms and met some great folks there who had some great questions that really helped me get to a place where I'm really clear on what I'm looking for in my career.


::Group hug!!!::

Hi LA!!!

Hi EO!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

EO, I'm so glad that you're enjoying being home, and that you're feeling so connected, and that your DDs are having fun at school! That's great! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I like the "professional IN TRANSITION" thing.. I hope I get a chance to use that someday! LOL. Sounds like you're getting some really great advice and support on your career.

Yes, I'm starting grad school -- tomorrow! Yikes! I'm super excited and also a bit nervous. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I ended up working nearly full time with the rehab team in a nursing home this summer, which was super super fun but also meant less time for me to spend on MB since I'm not used to having a job with no internet access! LOL. It was really a great learning experience, though, and I've met some amazing people, and I'm really ready (I think) for school. And maybe I'll even get to spend more time on the computer now that I'm not working as much!

I really miss MB; checking in with you guys helps keep me centered. I've been struggling a bit lately, so it's good for me to be here! Right now, I'm working on really getting the hang of POJA (the part I need help with is the part where I say NO when I'm not enthusiastic -- I've built up a ton of resentment lately <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />). At least now I'm aware of it happening and working on not doing that again... LOL. Going up that spiral staircase again, looking at the same silly old poles... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

So good to see you guys, and to read jayne's posts -- it's so great to see new faces!

GROUP HUG!!

much love to you all,
Happy

Happy, so good to hear from you again. Congratualtions on finding work you like this summer, and about grad school!
I hear you about how helpful the board is. And you even pinpointed the problem!

You know, yesterday I was feeling so connected, really felt present. Then, at night, I gave H a kiss goodnight; didn't ask him to come to bed, because he has asked me not to; it makes him feel controlled. He comes to bed on his own, and I thoguht we were having fun sharing kisses together, thinking, life is good! And then, what seemed to me out of nowhere, H tells me that we have a huge disconnect, and he says I have him "by the balls" because I know he doesn't want to not live with the kids. That he accepts me as I am, and why don't I accept him? Why am I trying to change him?

I asked him for clarification, because I do think I accept him and respect the man he is. There are some habits we have that are damaging to our marriage, but I have faith that we can and will come up with solutions for these that would make us both happier than we are today. He keeps saying I'm trying to change him; that he doesn't feel accepted. I am hoping over time that we can get clarity on what that disconnect is.

The trigger I think it is is that yesterday I asked him to consider taking a cab ride home when he's out drinking and driving. A commercial came on and talked about how in Florida with your first DUI you get jail time and lose your license for a year. Or that there may be another solution that we haven't thought of yet. But that I don't like him going out drinking because that has a huge consequence that would affect us as a family.

We spoke really well about this until he called me a horrible person, and then I told him I would not hear any more. That I won't hesitate to get dressed and go out if he wasn't going to stop. I'm getting better at thinking on my feet, I could even dress in the car if need be. I told him he could write me an email if he didn't want to forget his thought. Amazingly, he left the room, and came back up in the middle of the night calm, and we had a peaceful morning.

He talked about how the house was too messy, so that even gave me an idea for an action for today, something to do to feel like I'm making things better.

Anyhow, it came to me that maybe it's like rocks in a river in reverse. H is horribly unhappy, but it hasn't got to the point that it affected me yet. That I can keep throwing rocks in, so when he shovels some out; I can still see a path across the river.

EO,

I see something different. I see you not hearing his opinion as his opinion...his truth as his own, not the truth.

You felt really connected...he said he doesn't. Only he said it as "we aren't connected"...so in listen and repeat, you say, "I hear you don't feel connected to me as a partner right now. You feel controlled and perceive me as trying to change you, is that correct?"

Sounds basic...it isn't. You got sideswiped from your own expectation...that you both were connected. His was that you were both disconnected.

Your truth remains...you are actively connecting to DH. You're hearing his stuff. Follow through...hear his stuff as his...

I believe because you felt connected, were safe and sharing kisses, he felt safe enough with you to share...IMO.

Not to blindside, disrupt, take you down, twist you in anyway. And often we share what scares us as second and third person...which is what you want to truly clarify or confirm...to hear better HIS stuff...and you rephrase...not take inside...as him saying you're doing this...he's saying this is his perception, his experience.

You know from Alanon we have been raised with the trained perspective of being done to, others causing, controlling and curing. Doesn't make it one iota real, does it?

"I hear you do not believe I accept you for who you are, separate from what you do or have done, is that what you said?"

Good question for you to answer in yourself..."Do I accept this man as my human partner, for his essence...separate from his choice of actions?"

Do you want to control his perceptions, feelings, beliefs and thoughts?

Do you want to control his behaviors, his choices?

"I know you'll take a cab if you've had more than two drinks in two hours, DH. I believe in you."

That's all you can do, within your control, isn't it? And if he doesn't...if something awful happens to him, (DUI or worse), to another family...yes, your family is involved...not accountable. You won't do jail time...he will. Any civil suit will directly affect you and the kids...won't deprive them of life.

Find those "It shouldn't be this way" statements in your head...you permit yourself to act from them instead of own them, maybe?

"You see the house as too messy right now. What do you feel when its like this?"

Not to judge...to know.

Everything each of you does and does not do affects your family. Balance your perspective...don't telescope. See where you're living...in the future or the present?

Then he calls you a horrible person...and you didn't rephrase..."I hear you believe you are married to a horrible person, is that correct?"

Very important to rephrase on this...what tells our brain we are brave and true...and not reactive...because he may be projecting...and if you're taking it as about you, into you, then you're harming your marriage, aren't you?

Listening is not acting on to cure...not to change or stop. Wasn't what you planned on doing when you did...understandable. You were going to bed and he began to share. Irritating...unusual...not asked for time...either take it on or not..."You want to talk now. I've shut down my brain and tucked in bed. I really want to hear you. Will you share with me tomorrow night at 9pm? I'll make sure my brain is alert and my ears aren't already dreaming."

If you choose to listen and repeat...to not draw that boundary...then do it all the way. At the point where you were swallowing his stuff as yours...permit yourself to say, "I'm not where I want to be in my head. I desire to hear you, appreciate your sharing and understand your truth. Right now, I'm really reactive and I think it's because my body is tired and my mind had checked out. I'm sorry I didn't tell you right off."

Then set the re-connect time.

Period.

You are powerful, EO. Do you think you fear how powerful you are more than powerless you feel? Could that be why you are in the habit of throwing your power onto DH?

And were you feeling really connected to DH in the first place? You were relishing and imbibing re-connection to friends and family...did you just lump him in, part of your whole people circle...or did you truly feel connected directly to DH?

LA

LA, thanks for the insight. We each still own only our own half. I didn't hear his opinion as his opinion...his truth as his own, not the truth.



Yes, I was lumping him in all day. But then, at night, I felt so connected being together like that. Although I was missing what look now like obvious signals... pretending to be asleep when got in the room. He said he was having some pain and didn't want to get intimate. But then, he responded when I kissed him, anyway. To me, that was even more cool that he showed interest in affection even when there wasn't a bigger goal there.


I had repeated back, but I didn't and don't understand, so that why I was trying to clarify.

And I see how this came from having an expectation that I didn't check with him to see if it was accurate.



That makes a lot of sense. Alot of times things like that have come seemingly out of the blue when we are done wih all the to-dos for the night.


"I hear you do not believe I accept you for who you are, separate from what you do or have done, is that what you said?"

I explained that this is the distinction I make, between who we are, and what we do. I used the example of how he didn't like how I used to keep my car. I am not a messy car. That's not who I am. I am a person who used to keep her car one way, and now keeps her car a different way. Same person. It didn't change who I am. It has not changed my life in a big way. He does not agree that there is a distinction there.


I do believe that I accept and respect him as a person, separate from his choice of actions. Separate and equal.


No, I have no wish to control his perceptions, feelings, beliefs, or thoughts. I know I have no control over any of these. That I am not the cause, control, or cure.


Again, I know I am powerless over others' choices. He chooses his behavior from his code. I hope to challenge him to explore to find his code, because I believe it matches my own. I believe his unhappiness today comes from the disconnect between his actions and his code; something I have no control over. That is my truth, not the truth. He may be unhappy for other reasons.

I share my O&H and make thoughtful requests as his partner. He is free to make his choices. I am free to protect myself from the ones I find harmful.

"I know you'll take a cab if you've had more than two drinks in two hours, DH. I believe in you."

Where's the O&H? We are new, every day. But I have not seen him take a cab because he drank too much. Wouldn't it be more accurate to believe it when I see it? There are things I do believe in him about, where I do word things like this. This isn't one of them.

Sure, as well as trying to steer clear of his consequences.


LA, I want to understand this. I hear you saying that I can do this by looking for these statements in my head, and see that actions I take as a result of them.


What is the telescoping? The pointing out the chance of a DUI?




I don't know that the reason I didn't rephrase this is because it was late. I don't take it as about me, I take it as an arrow to hurt me. I don't know the intent. This is definently something that I think "It shouldn't be this way" about. No, I shouldn't be spoken to like that, in my own home, by the man I love. So my action is to stop dealing with him while he's that far disconnected from his code. Because he'll come back on his own, when he's ready.

LA, you do this for me, repeat back my negative beliefs so that I can get perspective, and that is one of many things I value about you. And I try to do that for my friends, too. But I don't know if it's healthy for me to play THAT role with H, because I'm also his wife.



But I'm not going to feel safe to talk about how he feels that he's married to a horrible person at 9am. Maybe in a MC's office, where I have some protection, that's where I'd feel safe. Or a public place, like on a walk or at a coffee shop. I could suggest that.



LA, I am not seeing where here I am giving away my power. I will think on it more and hope I will see it. In general I am feeling a mixture of fear but mostly really excited about taking more control over my job search and other decisions this time.

Do you believe you're a horrible person?

I think you're a top-notch purplized buttercup.

Did that hurt?

The goal here is to see what you're hurting about inside you, where's it coming from...and see if you hold that belief, so it stabs...isn't it?

I don't believe you have that top-notch purplized buttercup belief in you. I don't think it will stab. I could be wrong. Maybe you have it and it delights you.

I could be horrified either way.

I'm not. I don't believe you're a horrible person...so his opinion didn't bite...sounded totally like his stuff...his thought, not the truth. Seriously. Sounded more about him...which is why I identified projection...what he thinks of himself...his internal battle...not yours.

You didn't. Even in your response to me, I sensed you're still reeling from this statement...taking it in...taking it on...

Yes, it is defining how he said it..."you are a horrible person" which is why I rephrased. When you read the rephrase and picture him saying, yes, that's what I feel right now and I don't know why...then how do you feel? Not defining you...your Defined Self wincing...not your Self.

(I read the link to Al Turtles Validation article...just loved it...gonna re-read it again and again.)

You don't want to be defined that way by anyone...is that correct? Then there's where you are still controlling what you cannot. They can define...doesn't make it true, does it?

Look inside, EO...did you say, "Ouch!" or did you persist when your brain had gone to bed? Did you mind your own boundaries? Were you really being O&H? And why on earth do you choose to challenge your H to know and connect with his code, his core beliefs, and choose to believe they match your own?

How controlling do you want to be? I told you...these are the tendrils of control freaks...I know it well...you think you kill the source of the vine...and the tendrils get sneakier...they reach into our expectations and then hide those expectations from us...take our resentments underground...remains up to us to ferret out our fear-based tendrils and know them, not react to them.

You said that H does this...after all the to-do's are done (I liked how you said that)...are you napping during the day to be up for it? Do you resent him sharing on his own time, no warning, not considering whether you're really present in energy and spirit or not?

I see you have seen far into yourself...living far better, more life skills...growing and growing...this is more. There's more. Not challenging him...knowing you. Knowing what you do behind your own back.

Like widening your own center base...it stretching...so you feel comfortable saying, "Thank you for the affection. I heard you say this...and I'm not processing right now. I'll be ready to listen tomorrow night at 9pm. Thank you for sharing."

True partnering isn't doing that which you will resent...making you risk your relationship while talking under the influence of fatigue...take a cab home, EO. Speak. Be like AmI and open your mouth...ask for his help...you are his wife...doesn't entitle you to anything...because you remain his partner.

What's to really clarify? He perceives you're controlling him, got him by his privates...that's his experience right now. In no way says you're doing it. His experience is valid, EO. It's his...hopper on head.

Tell him when you don't have the energy to lift the hopper right then. Tell him when you will...of your desire to really listen...not take into and make fact...hear his experience, his opinion...to listen from respect.

It's hard to hear others' truth...at first. Gets easier and easier with practice. I think it approaches the sacred...because God listens to us and doesn't own our stuff. He respects to a depth we have to practice to achieve.

You're feeling a surge...in your job search (influx of energy), newness, new hope, new command...clarity. Easy for that to bleed over into relationships...enmeshment says what you're feeling here is felt there...thinking here is thought there...experiencing inside is experienced on the outside. Big pull in married is to experience together...and yet, we remain separate, equal and have different experiences with the same event.

We are not the same person.

We are in the same union.

How much practice until we get there? I don't know...I'm still practicing...just this morning my DH asked..."Were you upset I stayed up so late playing that computer game last night?" I could honestly reply, "You know, I wasn't. Didn't feel resentment, desire you to do something different. How 'bout that? Thanks for asking."

I can see his choices as singular ones...not signs of forever, which kicked in my fear of abandonment...last priority, etc. Because I practice trusting myself..not him doing...me believing...in me.

Believe in you, EO. You are neither a hero, a saint or a villain. You're you...new every day. You act with bravery, honesty and deception...we all do. Seeing our own where's and why's takes up our mental focus...which is why I think like the vine, it sneaks off into our partner's stuff, seeking shade from our own sun...distraction, and with distraction comes judgment, expectations and disappointments...heart-smacking slaps.

You can't stop consequences to you and your family. Only divorcing him will stop his choices from bearing you and your DDs consequences...even then, they will have consequences as his daughters all their lives...and you were half that choice.

What's the worse place to be for a human? Where they have all the responsibility and none of the control.

Choosing to believe you don't deserve consequences to his choice to drive drunk isn't real. "It shouldn't be this way." Nor is taking all the responsibility where you don't have all the control...you control your boundary enforcements...so you have some power in how much of the consequences you and your DDs experience, and a lot of influence in how those consequences would be met, owned and processed...and none over the outcome.

You can call the cops and notify them when DH goes out to drink...tell them when and where. Your choice. Informing. You can not call the cops and inform, also. You can check into getting a breathalyzer installed in his car...blow to go. You got options, choices. They have their own consequences...you don't control all of them. You're human.

Talk to your sponsor about this issue in you...the difference between sharing, "I am choosing to obsess on this...I think about your drinking a lot" (btw, was he drinking last night?) "I feel fear and yearn to make you make me safe. I know that's not realistic or respectful."

and saying what you said...

You asked for what you wanted...and I believe, you've asked this before...why not ask an attorney what your legal responsibility or obligations are?

I do know this dance, EO...I promise. My DH does it with money. Each time is the last time...and it isn't, right? Part of the entitlement cycle, the addictive cycle...in fact, your disapproval and fear is a part of HIS cycle...

Have you considered how controlling H really is?

Shared the ways you feel controlled by H?

My intent with the "It shouldn't be this way" repetitive statements in our minds is to see where our feelings...our fear...our anger and pain often come from...because this is an old tape from childhood...and I believe in moderation, it helps us to know the shape of boundaries...identify our desires...to excess, we experience misery, disappointment, resentment and conflict...in total absence, we have a hard time thinking of what we desire, dims our hope, misplaces our goals.

Reacting to it isn't healthy. Then, what is? LOL. Knowing it's there, it's ours, and tracing our feelings back to it...to that pervasive, consistent, obnoxious belief...tells us we're more in our child perspective than our adult one, though. Great signal.

You know when you felt rage for H? Felt like hitting him, hating him? I heard you say you wouldn't be ready to hear H thinks you're a horrible person...even in an MC session (safe third party). Because you put your feeling safe (whether you are or not) ahead of knowing your partner. That's what I hear. Guess that means you didn't share and own your stuff, either, huh? Because I would have heard I'm a horrible person had you shared and I was H...seriously. My own filter. Cuts off intimacy and connection...because you didn't keep hating H...it was a feeling and it passed...you worked through it...and he didn't have a clue, did he? You did it behind his back.

He's working through his knee-jerk method of blaming you...if you're horrible, then he's not so messed up. If you're controlling, then he's blameless. All about him, not you. Not really.

Loving detachment...respecting his stuff, including opinions, is his...part of his essence...which you say you accept. Those aren't actions...his thoughts, feelings, perceptions and beliefs.

You can say stop.
You can say not now, and when.
......as long as you own your choices.

That's permitted. That's healthy. Because YOU aren't handling your stuff...not because he's sharing his stuff.

Do you really want to grow side by side? Then don't challenge, urge, create an environment, act to get him to react properly...because that's not growing side by side.

Keep your promises...with MC appts...doing the homework, reading the books...they will aide you in your job search, your professional in transition...because I have perceived you wanna be a pro at your marriage...your half.

Am I close?

LA

P.S.

My H often said he thought I was controlling. It often occured to him, felt and tasted that way.

Then MC/IC showed him how controlling he was...and he hasn't seen me as controlling since.

Period.

All my changes happened along side DH's...and I believe I stopped my urges to control (practice, practiced)...yet this big realization of how desperate my DH was to control me, his biggest threat because I was his biggest connection...is what changed his world, rocked our marriage.

And we share that urge, both of us. We connect because that is our similiarity...we share many permissions to act out from fear and pain...unites us...where control divided us.

He can feel engulfed, taken over, defined and judged...doesn't mean I'm doing it. I check myself...I hear his feelings...they are valid. Though I can't imagine feeling engulfed, consumed, taken over by him...I hear him.

Wow, LA, that was so much to take in! I love the way you post! How do you do that so fast? Maybe I need a typing class!

Okay, I think you're saying that the enmeshment is that I am perceiving that H and I share a code, instead of being separate and equal. But don't all the books we read assume that we all have the same underlying code? Am I mistaken?

I'm not reeling because I think I'm a horrible person. I'm reeling because H's extreme contempt for me is remorse for either past IB or the IB he's planning. Hold up, that's me picking the worst belief in the bunch again. "Just wondering, are you treating me this way because of something you've already done or planning to do? Do you plan on telling me about it this time, or will I be left again to wonder what's wrong?"

No, all statements from my assumptions. I can't control what he chooses to tell me and when.


Thanks for identifying this for me! I think I see the pattern now. I can only own my own half.


This is where I can look at how my behavior matches up and doesn't, to my code.


No, I didn't share that. Because it was about me. About me choosing to give my power away, and learning more specifically again where I stop and he starts.

And it had the potential to hurt him. Went against my code.


Wow, LA, how did you connect this? That's amazing!

My working through my feelings about H, wasn't about trying to justify IB. It was about trying to live in what feels stifling at times, this unwillingness to find solutions together.

I can see how H can feel similarly frustrated with my not doing this the way we were doing them before, either. Saying what he wanted to hear, saying what I thought I had to out of fear of retaliation. And now that fear isn't my primary motivator.


Thanks for getting me this far, LA, to see where I haven't been O&H, and why. I'm going to take that step out in faith, try some more O&H. Keep taking steps and becoming a pro at my half <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I timed out twice now, without doing crtl-c, and didn't lose my posts!

Thanks for the PS, too!

Hey, I time out, too...why I do the ctrl-c trick.

And yes, I type as fast as I think.

I was helping my father with his printer two days ago and at one point did a quick test page improv...my dad usually uses "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country."

Takes me back. Both my parents typed when I was growing up...and Dad is pretty darn fast.

Anyway...what I typed this time? "Look how fast your daughter can type!"

LOL

He said he was kinda impressed. I'm just a kid, EO. Know that.

After my post to you I took a break and picked up "Boundaries in Marriage" and read the part about Boundary Lovers and Boundary Rejecters.

God just reaches, provides and makes really big signs, doesn't he?

Read it again...about Boundary Lovers and Boundary Resisters...page 193 onward...comes right after the six kinds of conflict...

I think you're a boundary lover...I really do.

I think I am, too.

I think our H's are/were boundary-resistors. Not from defective character...from having THEIR boundaries trampled on by siblings and parents growing up...

Remember when we didn't know what we know now?

Not for us to teach...we researched, asked for, showed up and studied...they can, also. My DH has...given his commitment to reading books as directed by MC (some, some not)...listening to them on CD counts...and his commitment to stay in counseling.

And he really did show joy when I shared what I learned, as I learned it...included him...and he could feel that elusive freedom...and he gets it and then he doesn't...and that's okay with me.

His perspective was somebody in every relationship has to be the bad guy...if he made me horrible, he was off the hook.

Choosing to see no bad or good guys...just two humans, liberated him...and our marriage. I didn't know I had that belief myself until he shared...and I listened. How 'bout that? He grows me, too...my job is to listen, strive first to understand THEN be understood...

And yes, I screw it up. EO, please know I do...and it's okay...we live, we love and we grow from our screw ups...from where we fail to meet our own standards...look openly at those standards...

You have your own code you live to...remember? You formed it from what you craved most...your stuff...your cumulative life experience, desire, feelings, thoughts...all of you.

You didn't form your code by thinking, "All humans should think this, believe that and do these things" did you?

It was for you, about you, from your self, wasn't it?

So his code would be the same for him...which can be different.

My DH has a different code from me...I don't hold him to mine...doesn't mean I don't enforce my own boundaries (from my code) around myself...does it?

My DH cannot make me safe from pain or fear. Within conflict, I will experience pain and fear. Within life events, choices and breaths...I know I will experience some pain and fear...and joy, laughter, delight, acceptance, consideration, respect and appreciation.

Because they are in my code...and only I insure I accept, consider, respect and appreciate my spouse...and do so honestly, with ownership. How does this change my marriage? Changes my half...and my whole experience changes.

God works, EO. He really does. Know he does. A half can be whole...we are made whole and are half of every relationship.

There aren't numbered steps...or reasonable predictabilities...reality is what it is...and we are significant.

You caught your own assumptions...and I see you still have a false payoff active in you for picking the worst possible assumption...that self-stab...which we both shared...and which I no longer choose. Used to make me feel powerful, an emotional cutter, in control where I was not, could not be...instead of enforcing my boundaries, I extended my concern, stretched my limits...you could hear the snapping from Florida, I swear.

No bad/good guys...two humans in a human marriage, 'k?

So what may or may not potentially hurt your DH is his right now...his feelings. Your own stuff is valid. If you do not permit yourself to share even your hatred as your own...then you aren't owning your half, or your whole, are ya? Isn't that like telling self, "You're bad. Don't inflict on H what is YOUR problem, which is you."

Isn't that calling yourself horrible?

What if you share now and then later, from practice, you share you don't feel hate, fear, anger...because from sharing, you no longer get those signals?

Are you in this together? You mindset matters. You are half the marriage...each of you is in it...so you're in this together.

Wowsers...doesn't say good or bad, right or wrong...says you're both in this marriage, right now, right here.

I appreciate your half of our relationship, EO. Very much. You bring your all...which I greatly admire and require of myself to you...even if I stumble, fear looking preachy, awkward, wrong or mean...I'm sharing with you, anyway. I respect you can see me in any of those ways...doesn't make me, right?

Hey...remember saying that as kids? You can't make me! You can't make me! I think I said that with Neener Neener voice.

How did we forget that, I wonder?

LA

LA, I have wrote twice, and was so quick to hit continue, that I forgot to ctrl-c both times. It's okay. I'm new everyday LOL. So he weather report has changed a few times since Friday.

LA, I read the section, and loved it, and even asked H to read it with me again. He said all the things above, that the passage focuses on the guy Robbie as being the bad one with things to change, that it doesn't specify anything that Shellie was asked to change. I listened and repeated, instead of arguing with him, trying to force my POV.

And I slept on it. And was so humbled. LA, do you know how many times I am Robbie, and H? How easily I allow myself to trample over H's thoughtful requests, about things like forgetting to put my shoes on the shoe rack in the garage before I come in, leaving them in the living room instead. When I know how much this stuff triggers him.

How long I floundered at the same weight, instead of continuing to look for solutions. It took as long as it took until I was ready. Yet I want H to stop on my time frame. Both of us, counting on the other to keep us safe, pointing fingers. Instead of focusing on our own halves.

Thanks, LA, I feel so much more separate and equal with H. We can do this.

LA,

I went back to re-read Boundaries in Marriage, too, and started with page 193 and then ended up re-reading the whole thing this weekend! (When I got to the end, I started back at the beginning til I got to page 193 again...) LOL

It is so amazing to me how someone or something always turns my attention to what I most need to hear when I most need it.

EO, I totally get what you are saying about wanting H to be on your timeline! I get frustrated with mine, too, and lately I have ben so focused on what he does for me rather than who he is and what I am doing, and reading Boundaries really helped me clarify that I need to cut that out! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks so much for being here and inspiring me -- reading your posts the last few days was exactly what I needed!

Hugs all around,
Happy

Happy, wasn't that so amazing, how just asking, we find there are answers WE HAVE that we've just forgotten.

These two things went so hand-in-hand, the Listen and Repeat and the responsibility-choice connection we can support with the Boundary idea. H and I are so parallel it's uncanny. He is struggling with the same issues I am, identity and interdependence, and listening and repeating his thoughts helps me understand my own better. As we woke up this morning, he was reminding me about some job search activities I was hyped up about last week but hadn't completed. He was highly stressed that I hadn't completed these things going into the week. Listening and repeating reminded me to look at my own internal motivations and payoffs for doing or not doing instead of focusing on trying to fix his perspective for him. How wierd that I ever tried to do this? That that was my default, to try to fix his perspective so he would like me? Instead of taking individual repsonsibility for my self-esteem and other esteem, which doesn't rely on activities at all.

Amazing, too, to listen and repeat interacting with my friends this weekend, seeing where I could discuss the same topics and how some left me feeling picked at and judged and others left me energized. I think the difference was the interactivity, that I have friends where we explore where we want to go, instead of measuring what we should be doing.

For example, one thing bothering me was D11, how she wants to drop out of her extracurricular activities because she's in a rigorous academic program at school this year. This program, which D11 is really excited about, was the main reason H was enthusiastic about coming home. You know fitness was a main theme this last year for us, and she was making excellent progress in Tae Kwan Do, set to become a black belt this December. I feared standing by while she steered her course this way, I would be setting her up for failure if she wanted to reenter this and the other activities later.. And this fit in so much with what LA was talking about, too, fearing consequences while not owning the choices. I finally understood that these truly are her choices to make. We had a great family discussion where D11 decided to try dropping these activities just for September and then look at it again to see if these new choices are working.

Happy, the same day that you wrote, I got an email newsletter with some info about the topic, Saying Yes When you Mean NO. I could email it to you, or you can email Symphony of Life at symphonyol@yahoo.com to get a copy.

A little update....

I have been SO reactive lately. The advice from last week, to look at how I can keep myself safe instead of expecting H to keep me safe, is really helping.

I'm working so hard to nip my DJs about H in the bud, that I'm practically leaping out the door when he offends me, to get walking and process in a neutral way. But the kids are getting disturbed. I tell them that it's about me, and it'll be okay. But it's surprising me how I still have this so often. I'm trying to look on the bright side, that I've wanted to excavate these reactions, and with practice I'll get there.

It's funny, I had such big fears about working from home this summer, but it went great, and now I'm tackling another big issue, I think successfully so far, which is being at home. I used to feel so bad hat I didn't meet H's expectations with DS, but I have routines that I feel really good about now.

But there's another one that I found out yesterday is looming on the horizon, H's consulting company is asking him to take another travel-intensive position. He has met with a local consulting company that doesn't require travel, but the hourly rate is significantly less. I have a lot of fear about that, because it has always worked out so bad for us in the past, and I have had so much resentment to work past about it already. But maybe it's a test for me to prove to myself that I can get so good about letting go of expectations that I can even let go of the expectation that I'll have a spouse that lives with me, that parents with me.

The job search is going great. There are four great positions that I'm in the interview process with. They each have different great unique things about them, but they all have in common that they're very challenging so I can really grow with them, paying what I'm looking for, have a short commute, and don't require overtime or travel.

Last night, I don't feel really good about how I handled H's news about the travel. At first, I said something like, I know you'll find you a good position that doesn't involve travel. And listened and repeated instead of contradicting or reacting.

But then, later, we were out walking, and that's when H said that he doesn't want to be in the position to turn down work and be home, especially when I'm not working. I said, hon, I've told you how depressed I get when you're away travelling. I can't control whether you travel, I can only control whether I'm stuck with travel. He asked what that meant, and I went on to say that I don't know if I could be okay in a marriage with the continued travel.

We've had a similar discussion before, that how is it I would be okay walking away in that case. Then I'd have enven less support from him parenting the kids. And that's true. I don't know.

I'm going to a local job fair, and hope to get some business cards from some local executive search firms that hopefully can find a position for H down here. I asked him if that's okay, and he liked that idea.

I've been hesitant to update, because I didn't do a lot of great wife things this week. Kind of figured that I'd pop back up when I was doing better LOL. But that wouldn't be very O&H, and maybe some others have BTDT and would have some suggestions. By the way, H found a local assignment <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A long time ago I mentioned an old male friend I had, a best friend I'd had a crush on for years, and we were physical at one point. We went through a whole NC ordeal a decade ago at H's request, before I found MB. At the time it was one of the hardest things I'd ever had to do and I fought it kicking and screaming before I reluctantly gave in. I wasn't inappropriate with my friend after I met H, but I wasn't over those feelings for him, and it was bad for our marriage. By now, I am totally on board with NC, and H is no longer worried.

I struggled with missing this guy last year when I took a job that I drove through our old neighborhood every day to get to. My favorite radio station was all "our" songs. I got some books on tape, found a new favorite station that didn't play "our" music and started taking a different route, and then didn't think about his so much any more. I didn't tell H how much I had been missing this guy.

I got together with some old women friends who didn't know about the NC ordeal. They called another friend, who asked if we wanted this guy's number, and I didn't know what to say, so I wrote it down but got rid of the number. I told H about it, and told him that I am not going to call the guy, and H said that it wouldn't bother him anymore, that he's not a jealous type.

One of the other ladies called my old friend, who asked for my number, and he called me. I didn't know it was him when I answered, and I didn't think that he'd call. I was confused what to do. I feared being O&H and reminding him about NC would stir things up more than having a short call, but I didn't realize that I still had those old feelings until we talked. We talked for a bit, nothing personal, just about how everyone we knew was doing. He has a girlfriend and they are raising her daughter together. He lives hours away, and said his GF would like to meet me. He sent me an email with some short stories about the past. Not about the two of us, just stories that included folks I know.

I told H that we talked, and he was okay with it. I know, though, this wasn't good for me or our marriage and I won't take his call next time.